--===============5945355118050210354==
--Apple-Mail=_005045C6-CFDA-44FF-AD7F-BF98E67B24C3
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
charset=utf-8
The basic thermodynamic heat transfer equations work in an ideal way, =
but the world is never that simple. The fundamental heat transfer =
equation Q=3DSM(Tin-Tout) suggests that the more mass that gets pushed =
through the radiator, the more heat gets transferred, but we know that =
isn=E2=80=99t exactly true. Radiators and motors get coated in gunk, the =
heat transfer coefficient is therefore variable, the primitive headers =
don=E2=80=99t precisely distribute the water flow and tubes have more or =
less turbulence, get blocked. airflow isn=E2=80=99t constant. There are =
simulations available to size a radiator, but aside from running one, =
I=E2=80=99d say that it=E2=80=99s highly unlikely that a single pass =
radiator is going to adequately cool a V8 of more than modest =
displacement unless you become happy with a generally high operating =
temperature. Here=E2=80=99s why:=20
You can transfer a lot of heat with with a high mass flow rate and a =
radiator that doesn=E2=80=99t drop the outlet temperature very much, but =
this means the coolant flowing back into the block is close in =
temperature to the coolant flowing out. That means your operating =
temperature IN THE BLOCK will be higher, but won=E2=80=99t rise =
excessively with increased power output. The heat transfer rate to the =
air is adequate to remove the heat energy, but only operating at a =
higher general temperature.=20
A slower pump or restricted flow will lower the low-load operating =
temperature because the time the coolant remains in the radiator is =
longer. But overall heat transfer is lower, so full load temperature =
will rise more. That may be adequately compensated for with greater =
airflow at speed.=20
All of this is the reason street cars have thermostats with an operating =
range that suits the general design of the engine/radiator combination. =
Of course air temperature shifts this balance.=20
Your high idle temperature is typical of a radiator running with a =
higher outlet temperature because of high coolant flow rate. But don=E2=80=
=99t kill the engine chasing the wrong parameter. It=E2=80=99s full load =
you need to worry about. If the internal temperature of the block is too =
high for the system operating pressure you=E2=80=99ll get sheet boiling =
in the heat transfer surfaces of the engine (like the sleeves of our wet =
sleeve triumphs). This may not make the coolant boil generally, but it =
greatly reduces the heat transfer ability of the surfaces. One reason =
cylinder 4 of TR3=E2=80=99s is so delicate.=20
I=E2=80=99d use at least a two-pass radiator to get the radiator outlet =
temperature down a bit more. That will reduce engine temperature a bit =
and you=E2=80=99ll have a slightly higher overall heat transfer ability.=20=
> On Jul 10, 2016, at 1:44 PM, Mordy Dunst <gasket.works@gte.net> wrote:
>=20
> Chris your the engineer....
>=20
> Heat produced vs heat removed. There will be a steady state at some =
point. You would like it lower. Don"t underestimate the headgasket =
component of channeling coolant flow. In the TR4 motor i made the =
coolant holes different than original to allow the mass flow of water to =
occur from the rear of the motor forward. I also put a pressure gauge =
on my coolant. If the pressure is too low it will not cool as =
efficiently either. I don"t know what the coolant dwell time with in =
the head needs to be to in order to adsorb the heat generated. Nor the =
dwell time in the radiator. There certainly calcs for all this stuff. =20=
>=20
> MDunst
> Headgasket.com <http://headgasket.com/>
> 626.628.3777 F
> Triple R Munitions, Inc
> 626.201.9471 T
> FFL 6,7 SOT 2
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: MadMarx <tr4racing@googlemail.com =
> To: 'Marcel Van Mulders' <van.mulders.marcel@telenet.be =
> Sent: Sat, Jul 9, 2016 8:21 pm
> Subject: Re: [Fot] TR8 Water temperature
>=20
> I have a 160F thermostat installed.
> Next test will be without any restrictions, maximum flow and see how =
it goes with that.
> =20
> Chris
> =C2=A0 <>
> Von: Marcel Van Mulders [mailto:van.mulders.marcel@telenet.be =
> Gesendet: Samstag, 9. Juli 2016 13:01
> An: 'MadMarx' <tr4racing@googlemail.com =
> Betreff: RE: [Fot] TR8 Water temperature
> =20
> My diesel BMW runs always at 100=C2=B0C/212=C2=B0F when hot. What =
coolant thermostat is in it? If the T=C2=B0 is steady at 212=C2=B0F, =
perhaps it is intentionally done so with a 212=C2=B0 thermostat.
> Marcel
> =20
> Van: Fot [mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net =
> Verzonden: donderdag 7 juli 2016 19:21
> Aan: 'FOT List'
> Onderwerp: [Fot] TR8 Water temperature
> Hi guys,
> =20
> My TR8 is running way too hot about 212F at full speed and at idle the =
temps are getting that high also. I have no idea to get them down.
> Radiator core is 68x48cm x 5 cm. I suppose that should be enough. I've =
experiment with different restrictor plates with no change. Changing =
pump speed didn't help either. The difference between radiator in and =
outlet is 10=C2=B0C (50F). Not enough I would say. Maybe making the pump =
more slower? It was running on a ratio of 0.8 slower than crank, =
currently 1:1 speed. Any ideas? 10 Liters are circulating.
> =20
> Cheers
> Chris
> _______________________________________________
>=20
> http://www.fot-racing.com <http://www.fot-racing.com/>
>=20
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html =
<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive <http://www.team.net/archive>
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums <http://www.team.net/forums>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: =
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/gasket.works@gte.net =
<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/gasket.works@gte.net>
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
>=20
> http://www.fot-racing.com <http://www.fot-racing.com/>
>=20
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html =
<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive <http://www.team.net/archive>
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> Unsubscribe/Manage: =
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--Apple-Mail=_005045C6-CFDA-44FF-AD7F-BF98E67B24C3
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">The basic thermodynamic heat transfer =
equations work in an ideal way, but the world is never that simple. The =
fundamental heat transfer equation Q=3DSM(Tin-Tout) suggests that the =
more mass that gets pushed through the radiator, the more heat gets =
transferred, but we know that isn=E2=80=99t exactly true. Radiators and =
motors get coated in gunk, the heat transfer coefficient is therefore =
variable, the primitive headers don=E2=80=99t precisely distribute the =
water flow and tubes have more or less turbulence, get blocked. airflow =
isn=E2=80=99t constant. There are simulations available to size a =
radiator, but aside from running one, I=E2=80=99d say that it=E2=80=99s =
highly unlikely that a single pass radiator is going to adequately cool =
a V8 of more than modest displacement unless you become happy with a =
generally high operating temperature. Here=E2=80=99s =
why: </div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">You =
can transfer a lot of heat with with a high mass flow rate and a =
radiator that doesn=E2=80=99t drop the outlet temperature very much, but =
this means the coolant flowing back into the block is close in =
temperature to the coolant flowing out. That means your operating =
temperature IN THE BLOCK will be higher, but won=E2=80=99t rise =
excessively with increased power output. The heat transfer rate to the =
air is adequate to remove the heat energy, but only operating at a =
higher general temperature. </div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">A slower pump or restricted flow will =
lower the low-load operating temperature because the time the coolant =
remains in the radiator is longer. But overall heat transfer is lower, =
so full load temperature will rise more. That may be adequately =
compensated for with greater airflow at speed. </div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">All of this is the =
reason street cars have thermostats with an operating range that suits =
the general design of the engine/radiator combination. Of course air =
temperature shifts this balance. </div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Your high idle temperature is typical =
of a radiator running with a higher outlet temperature because of high =
coolant flow rate. But don=E2=80=99t kill the engine chasing the wrong =
parameter. It=E2=80=99s full load you need to worry about. If the =
internal temperature of the block is too high for the system operating =
pressure you=E2=80=99ll get sheet boiling in the heat transfer surfaces =
of the engine (like the sleeves of our wet sleeve triumphs). This may =
not make the coolant boil generally, but it greatly reduces the heat =
transfer ability of the surfaces. One reason cylinder 4 of TR3=E2=80=99s =
is so delicate. </div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I=E2=80=99d use at least a two-pass radiator to get the =
radiator outlet temperature down a bit more. That will reduce engine =
temperature a bit and you=E2=80=99ll have a slightly higher overall heat =
transfer ability. </div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jul 10, 2016, at 1:44 PM, Mordy Dunst <<a =
href=3D"mailto:gasket.works@gte.net"; =
class=3D"">gasket.works@gte.net</a>> wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><font size=3D"2" =
face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" style=3D"font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><font =
size=3D"2" class=3D"">Chris your the engineer....<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Heat produced vs heat removed. There will be a steady =
state at some point. You would like it lower. Don"t =
underestimate the headgasket component of channeling coolant flow. =
In the TR4 motor i made the coolant holes different than original to =
allow the mass flow of water to occur from the rear of the motor =
forward. I also put a pressure gauge on my coolant. If =
the pressure is too low it will not cool as efficiently either. I =
don"t know what the coolant dwell time with in the head needs to =
be to in order to adsorb the heat generated. Nor the dwell time in =
the radiator. There certainly calcs for all this stuff. <span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><br =
class=3D""></font></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
style=3D"clear: both;" class=3D"">MDunst<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://headgasket.com/"; class=3D"">Headgasket.com</a><font =
size=3D"2" class=3D""></font><br class=3D"">626.628.3777 F<br =
class=3D"">Triple R Munitions, Inc<br class=3D"">626.201.9471 T<br =
class=3D"">FFL 6,7 SOT 2<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica; font-size: =
10pt;" class=3D"">-----Original Message-----<br class=3D"">From: MadMarx =
<<a href=3D"mailto:tr4racing@googlemail.com"; =
class=3D"">tr4racing@googlemail.com</a>><br class=3D"">To: 'Marcel =
Van Mulders' <<a href=3D"mailto:van.mulders.marcel@telenet.be"; =
class=3D"">van.mulders.marcel@telenet.be</a>>; 'MadMarx' <<a =
href=3D"mailto:tr4racing@googlemail.com"; =
class=3D"">tr4racing@googlemail.com</a>><br class=3D"">Cc: fot <<a =
href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; =
class=3D"">fot@autox.team.net</a>><br class=3D"">Sent: Sat, Jul 9, =
2016 8:21 pm<br class=3D"">Subject: Re: [Fot] TR8 Water temperature<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div =
id=3D"AOLMsgPart_1.2_dc1d0451-f169-48f2-a7f8-1097a48363d1" class=3D""><div=
class=3D"aolReplacedBody" lang=3D"DE"><div class=3D"WordSection1" =
style=3D"page: WordSection1;"><div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I have a 160F thermostat =
installed.</span></div><div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Next test will be without any restrictions, =
maximum flow and see how it goes with that.</span></div><div =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""> </span></div><div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Chris</span></div><div =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""> </span></a></div><span =
class=3D""></span><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid none =
none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; =
padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Von:</span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Marcel Van =
Mulders [<a href=3D"mailto:van.mulders.marcel@telenet.be?"; style=3D"color:=
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:van.mulders.marcel@telenet.be</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Gesendet:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Samstag, 9. Juli 2016 =
13:01<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">An:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>'MadMarx' <<a =
href=3D"mailto:tr4racing@googlemail.com"; style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">tr4racing@googlemail.com</a>><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">fot@autox.team.net</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Betreff:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>RE: [Fot] TR8 Water =
temperature</span></div></div></div><div class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"> </div><div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
color: blue;" class=3D"">My diesel BMW runs always at 100=C2=B0C/212=C2=B0=
F when hot. What coolant thermostat is in it? If the T=C2=B0 is steady =
at 212=C2=B0F, perhaps it is intentionally done so with a 212=C2=B0 =
thermostat.</span></div><div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
color: blue;" class=3D"">Marcel</span></div><div class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"> </div><div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; text-align: center;"><span lang=3D"NL" class=3D""><hr =
align=3D"center" size=3D"5" width=3D"100%" class=3D""></span></div><div =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b class=3D""><span lang=3D"NL" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Van:</span></b><span lang=3D"NL" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Fot [<a target=3D"_blank" =
href=3D"mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net"; style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class=3D"">Namens<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>MadMarx<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Verzonden:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>donderdag 7 juli 2016 =
19:21<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Aan:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>'FOT List'<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Onderwerp:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>[Fot] TR8 Water =
temperature</span><span lang=3D"NL" class=3D""></span></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Hi =
guys,</span></div><div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""> </span></div><div =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">My TR8 is running way too hot about 212F =
at full speed and at idle the temps are getting that high also. I have =
no idea to get them down.<br class=3D"">Radiator core is 68x48cm x 5 cm. =
I suppose that should be enough. I've experiment with different =
restrictor plates with no change. Changing pump speed didn't help =
either. The difference between radiator in and outlet is 10=C2=B0C =
(50F). Not enough I would say. Maybe making the pump more slower? It was =
running on a ratio of 0.8 slower than crank, currently 1:1 speed.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Any ideas? 10 Liters are =
circulating.</span></div><div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""> </span></div><div =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Cheers</span></div><div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Chris</span></div></div></div></div></div></div>_______________=
________________________________<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; class=3D"">fot@autox.team.net</a><br =
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target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">http://www.fot-racing.com</a><br =
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style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; =
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_______________________________________________
fot@autox.team.net
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