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Jay
I=E2=80=99m not familiar enough with the history of your Tiger so it comes =
down to how do you feel about the Nylocks.
I=E2=80=99m assuming they have been on for some time, have not moved and ar=
e probably very safe.
I would check them, mark them, then regularly inspect the witness marks for=
any movement, then decide.
Ron Fraser
From: Jay Laifman <jay.laifman@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2025 2:42 PM
To: Ron Fraser <rfraser@bluefrog.com>
Cc: modtiger@comcast.net; tigers@autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Check Your Nuts
Thoughts on pulling off nylocks and putting on two nuts to jam tight?
On Mon, Mar 10, 2025 at 11:37=E2=80=AFAM Ron Fraser <rfraser@bluefrog.com <=
mailto:rfraser@bluefrog.com> > wrote:
Jay
As the saying goes =E2=80=9CStuff Happens=E2=80=9D.
Nylock nuts are generally fine. I would say anyone with Nylock nuts shoul=
d put a witness mark on them as an easy visual safety check. Seems to me =
I have some Nylocks on the front suspension; I will check them and put a wi=
tness mark on them.
As with any product some are junk. I remember installing a Nylock nut and=
as I tightened it down the nylon insert popped out. I threw those Nylock=
s away.
Your situation is most likely OK. I would check the torque on the nuts an=
d put a witness mark on them.
I think the problem we have with why the nut came off is because we general=
ly think in terms of static conditions. Vehicles are on the move, vibrati=
ons can facilitate a nut or bolt to turn. I=E2=80=99m sure there are othe=
r dynamic forces working here too but they are beyond my grade level.
Ron Fraser
am.net> > On Behalf Of Jay Laifman
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2025 1:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Check Your Nuts
I remember a light blue Mazda Alpine. What ever happened to it?
I am not sure I understand how friction in the ball causes the taper to com=
e lose. But regardless, I think it is pretty likely my lower ball joints w=
ere sourced from Rick about 1994, and it is nyloc only. Are you suggesting=
they are all an accident away?
On Mar 9, 2025, at 7:43=E2=80=AFPM, Tom Hall via Tigers <tigers@autox.team.=
=EF=BB=BF
It's hard to believe that this is still happening. It started when Rick at=
Sunbeam Specialties changed suppliers way back in the mid-eighties. The O=
EM suppliers had always used castle nuts and cotter keys, but this new supp=
lier went with the Nylock nut design. which Rick initially accepted. My da=
ughter had this "accident" happen in her Rotary powered Alpine, back in the=
80's, a couple of blocks from home, exactly as you were, having the lower =
A-arm fall on the ground, and again luckily at low speed.
Rick arranged a meeting with reps for this supplier shortly after it happen=
ed. Rick and I sat down with them and they insisted this this had never ha=
ppened before and it must have been My fault. Rick and I talked at length =
and they told us that they were not going to modify their product. Rick how=
ever changed his receiveal methods so that the Nylok nut was tossed and a c=
astle nut and drilled hole were installed in his lower ball joint stock fro=
m that time until the current time. This supplier made an acceptable ball =
joint but they also deleted the copper plating of the genuine OEM supplier.=
What happened is that during storage after manufacturing, moisture got in=
to the joint and started the rust process. With only the Nylock nut, it wa=
s only a matter of time before the friction in the joint started to turn th=
e Nylock nut and unscrew it from the taper cone.
Conversely, the upper ball joints have also had this Nylock nut but I've ne=
ver heard of anyone loosing one to this friction un-screw mechanism. Diffe=
rent loading's, different results.
On Sat, Mar 8, 2025 at 2:19=E2=80=AFPM Joe Brown <jbbrown1980@gmail.com <ma=
ilto:jbbrown1980@gmail.com> > wrote:
So, I took my Tiger out yesterday for a short drive and as I was just abou=
t home (maybe a hundred yards from my driveway) the right front suspension =
dropped to the ground and I skidded several yards before stopping. All I c=
ould think of was the old stories about exploding ball joints.
I walked to my house and threw a floor jack and some jack stands in my truc=
k and drove back to the Tiger. I managed to get the front end jacked up an=
d discovered that the nut on the lower ball joint was gone and the lower A =
arm had dropped to the road. My suspension pieces are at least 30 years ol=
d and the ball joints were held on with nylock nuts. I managed to wrap a ra=
tchet strap around the upper and lower A arms and I was able to slowly driv=
e the car into my garage.
I am very lucky that:
1. I was going pretty slow at the time
2. The front end landed in some loose gravel on the side of the road
3. None of the body work was damaged
4. And nothing else in the suspension looks to be damaged; just scraped up=
If this had happened 5 minutes earlier I would have been doing 60 on a wind=
ing road and I would have wound up in a ditch.
So I'm ordering a new set of ball joints and I will drill them out for cast=
le nuts so I don't have to worry about a nut working its way loose again. =
Regards,
Joe Brown
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--
Tom Hall
ModTiger Engineering LLC
5712 San Luis Court
Pleasanton, CA 94566
(925)462-3876
http://tigerengineering.net/
_______________________________________________
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Jay<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I=E2=80=99m =
not familiar enough with the history of your Tiger so it comes down to =
how do you feel about the Nylocks.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I=E2=80=99m =
assuming they have been on for some time, have not moved and are =
probably very safe.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I would check =
them, mark them, then regularly inspect the witness marks for any =
movement, then decide. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Ron =
Fraser<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> =
Jay Laifman <jay.laifman@gmail.com> <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, March =
10, 2025 2:42 PM<br><b>To:</b> Ron Fraser =
<rfraser@bluefrog.com><br><b>Cc:</b> modtiger@comcast.net; =
tigers@autox.team.net<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tigers] Check Your =
Nuts<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thoughts on pulling off nylocks and putting on two =
nuts to jam tight?<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On =
Mon, Mar 10, 2025 at 11:37=E2=80=AFAM Ron Fraser <<a =
href=3D"mailto:rfraser@bluefrog.com";>rfraser@bluefrog.com</a>> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Jay<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>As the =
saying goes =E2=80=9CStuff Happens=E2=80=9D.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Nylock nuts =
are generally fine. I would say anyone with Nylock nuts =
should put a witness mark on them as an easy visual safety =
check. Seems to me I have some Nylocks on the front =
suspension; I will check them and put a witness mark on =
them.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>As with any =
product some are junk. I remember installing a Nylock nut =
and as I tightened it down the nylon insert popped out. I =
threw those Nylocks away.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Your =
situation is most likely OK. I would check the torque on the =
nuts and put a witness mark on them.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I think the =
problem we have with why the nut came off is because we generally think =
in terms of static conditions. Vehicles are on the move, =
vibrations can facilitate a nut or bolt to turn. I=E2=80=99m =
sure there are other dynamic forces working here too but they are beyond =
my grade level.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Ron =
Fraser<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-color:currentcolor =
currentcolor'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From:</b>=
Tigers <<a href=3D"mailto:tigers-bounces@autox.team.net"; =
target=3D"_blank">tigers-bounces@autox.team.net</a>> <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>Jay Laifman<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 10, 2025 1:45 =
AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:modtiger@comcast.net"; =
target=3D"_blank">modtiger@comcast.net</a><br><b>Cc:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net"; =
target=3D"_blank">tigers@autox.team.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[Tigers] Check Your Nuts<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I remember =
a light blue Mazda Alpine. What ever happened to it? =
<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I am not =
sure I understand how friction in the ball causes the taper to come =
lose. But regardless, I think it is pretty likely my lower ball =
joints were sourced from Rick about 1994, and it is nyloc only. =
Are you suggesting they are all an accident away? =
<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p><=
/p><blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'>On Mar 9, 2025, =
at 7:43=E2=80=AFPM, Tom Hall via Tigers <<a =
href=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net"; =
target=3D"_blank">tigers@autox.team.net</a>> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>=EF=BB=BF =
<o:p></o:p></p><p>It's hard to believe that this is still =
happening. It started when Rick at Sunbeam Specialties changed =
suppliers way back in the mid-eighties. The OEM suppliers had =
always used castle nuts and cotter keys, but this new supplier went with =
the Nylock nut design. which Rick initially accepted. My daughter =
had this "accident" happen in her Rotary powered Alpine, back =
in the 80's, a couple of blocks from home, exactly as you were, having =
the lower A-arm fall on the ground, and again luckily at low =
speed.<o:p></o:p></p><p>Rick arranged a meeting with reps for this =
supplier shortly after it happened. Rick and I sat down with them =
and they insisted this this had never happened before and it must have =
been <u>My fault</u>. Rick and I talked at length and they told us =
that they were not going to modify their product. Rick however changed =
his receiveal methods so that the Nylok nut was tossed and a castle nut =
and drilled hole were installed in his lower ball joint stock from that =
time until the current time. This supplier made an acceptable ball =
joint but they also deleted the copper plating of the genuine OEM =
supplier. What happened is that during storage after =
manufacturing, moisture got into the joint and started the rust =
process. With only the Nylock nut, it was only a matter of time =
before the friction in the joint started to turn the Nylock nut and =
unscrew it from the taper cone. <o:p></o:p></p><p>Conversely, the upper =
ball joints have also had this Nylock nut but I've never heard of anyone =
loosing one to this friction un-screw mechanism. Different =
loading's, different results.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p><=
/p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentcolor =
currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)'><div><div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor =
rgb(204,204,204)'><div><div><div><div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Sat, Mar =
8, 2025 at 2:19=E2=80=AFPM Joe Brown <<a =
href=3D"mailto:jbbrown1980@gmail.com"; =
target=3D"_blank">jbbrown1980@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor =
rgb(204,204,204)'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>So, I =
took my Tiger out yesterday for a short drive and as I was just about =
home (maybe a hundred yards from my driveway) the right front =
suspension dropped to the ground and I skidded several yards before =
stopping. All I could think of was the old stories about exploding =
ball joints. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I walked to =
my house and threw a floor jack and some jack stands in my truck and =
drove back to the Tiger. I managed to get the front end jacked up =
and discovered that the nut on the lower ball joint was gone and the =
lower A arm had dropped to the road. My suspension pieces are at =
least 30 years old and the ball joints were held on with nylock =
nuts. I managed to wrap a ratchet strap around the upper and lower A =
arms and I was able to slowly drive the car into my =
garage. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I am very =
lucky that: <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>1. I was =
going pretty slow at the time<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>2. The =
front end landed in some loose gravel on the side of the =
road<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>3. None of =
the body work was damaged<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>4. =
And nothing else in the suspension looks to be damaged; just scraped =
up<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>If this had =
happened 5 minutes earlier I would have been doing 60 on a winding road =
and I would have wound up in a ditch.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>So I'm =
ordering a new set of ball joints and I will drill them out for castle =
nuts so I don't have to worry about a nut working its way loose =
again. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Regards,<o:p=
></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Joe =
Brown<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'>__________________=
_____________________________<br><br><a =
href=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net"; =
target=3D"_blank">tigers@autox.team.net</a><br><br>Donate: <a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html"; =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>Archive: <a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers"; =
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omcast.net</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:=
p></o:p></pre></blockquote><p> <o:p></o:p></p><pre>-- =
<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Tom Hall<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>ModTiger Engineering =
LLC<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>5712 San Luis =
Court<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Pleasanton, CA =
94566<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>(925)462-3876<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a =
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