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Bob,
As I prepare to write this month's "Auction Report" for the *Healey
Marque *this 100M discussion has been really helpful and interesting. I
think your comment " I was surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and
distributor slide " raises a great question of what exactly is the 100M
certificate certifying? Bill Meade has written an article on what needs to
be presented to be certified.
https://www.100mregistry.com/PROTECTING_YOUR_100M_Feb_2013.pdf
<https://www.100mregistry.com/PROTECTING_YOUR_100M_Feb_2013.pdf> But it
seems to me it mainly focuses on the body parts that it left the factory
with. I find it interesting there's no necessity for pictures of the engine
number. And even if all the body parts, carbs, and distributor aren't
there, Bill says in the article "If some of these items are missing, let
the Registry know. It normally does not prevent registration provided
enough ID points are present." So my impression, which I'll try to verify
with Bill, is the certification is focused on the question whether this is
the car that left the factory that matches the BMIHT certificate saying it
had a louvered hood and not so much on whether it still has all the
original parts an M would have come with.
I think one of the benefits of the BaT comments for buyers (and
probably not so much for sellers) is pointing out major deficiencies with
an offering. Some buyer might have paid way more this car than it would be
worth if not for the "savage" comments.
Happy Healeydays
Rick Neville
On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 11:46=E2=80=AFAM Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.net>=
wrote:
> I think that's indisputable (I unintentionally neglected to mention that
> aspect). That, and the fact the kits were selling made a case for selling
> the M (these days, that would take an army of marketing people to figure
> out, with lots of 'data' of course, and maybe some AI). Doesn't negate th=
e
> strong showing of taking, IIRC, 3 cars off the lot--or was that the
> Bonneville cars?--hanging a few fancy bits on it and giving the bespoke
> Ferraris, Jags, Astons, Mercedeses etc. a run for their money (the Healey=
s'
> rugged simplicity likely helped). DMH was a brilliant marketer and
> salesman; he spotted the 'niche' hole between lower--performance MGs--we'=
re
> talking TCs and TDs, not Bs and Cs--and higher-performance but much more
> expensive Jaguars and plugged it. History says he drove cross-county in t=
he
> US to gauge the market; probably why he made overdrive an option from the
> get-go, for the wide-open US highways. I don't know Triumph history that
> well, was the TR2 a contemporary of the 100?
>
> How many times have you been asked what your Healey is worth--usually by =
a
> 'not-a-car-person'--and you've replied 'Whatever someone will pay me for
> it' (then, if the person seems genuinely interested I may give a run-down
> of the contemporary market; these days 'not so good'). It's the same with
> other marques; witness the number of Chevelle SS 'tribute' cars going
> across the block at auctions. Genuine Ms can command a 50-100% premium ov=
er
> comparable 100s; hence the intensity of the interest and critique. Did yo=
u
> watch the BaT auction? It was pretty savage and enlightening, to me; I wa=
s
> surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and distributor slide (maybe he wa=
s
> tired of doing the registry thing).
>
> From the late, great Gary Anderson:
>
>
> https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-H=
eritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf
>
>
> On 12/16/2023 6:46 AM, Michael Oritt wrote:
>
> Some feel that since DMH knew he was going to change over to a new car
> (the 100-6) he figured out a clever marketing ploy to get rid of what mig=
ht
> otherwise have become a less-than-desirable inventory of late production
> 100's by outfitting some of the cars with the snazzy M upgrade. If so it
> was probably never his intention nor in his comprehension to produce what
> has ironically become a very special Healey second only to the 100-S in
> collectibility.
>
> Best--Michael Oritt
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 1:31=E2=80=AFAM Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.net=
> wrote:
>
>> The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the optional branch
>> extractor--as opposed to a stock BN2's 90HP. That's a 22% increase in
>> power; I'd call that significant. Also, how do you 'hang' a camshaft and
>> pistons on an engine (the mechanics were supposed to pull the engine, bu=
t
>> if DMH and Geoff weren't around they'd cheat and do the mods in situ)?
>>
>> I think at least part of the value of an M is that it made an appearance
>> at the Healey factory, possibly with DMH and/or Geoff in attendance, as
>> opposed to just coming off the Austin assembly line. Also, the
>> modifications were, for the most part, the same as made to the cars that
>> ran at LeMans in '52 ('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th) overall. When
>> customers started asking for the same modifications DMH first sold a kit=
,
>> then the complete car (anyone remember 'Race on Sunday, sell on Monday?'=
).
>>
>> I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars command a significan=
t
>> price premium (hence why of the original, documented 640 cars only 3,000
>> remain).
>>
>> bs
>>
>>
>> On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:
>>
>> I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there isn't that
>> much to hanging the "modification " parts on any 100.
>> If the "M" designation involved significant performance modifications,
>> say like an "M" series BMW, which could not be easily copied, then I wou=
ld
>> consider them be very special.
>> I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not be surprise=
d
>> to see the "Registry" fade away.
>> Just my opinion.
>>
>> M
>>
>> On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys, <
>> healeys@autox.team.net> wrote:
>>
>>> What makes a 100M?
>>> Very good question and not easy to answer.
>>>
>>> In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category =
is significantly higher than the normal 100,
>>> is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 10=
0M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and
>>> no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be=
such a major modification for me, as would a
>>> conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carbu=
rettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a
>>> Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for=
the same money. But I have to admit, for me
>>> the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. I=
t's a special model with a little more
>>> horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina B=
MW or a AMG Mercedes.
>>>
>>> Josef Eckert
>>> Germany
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>>>
>>> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>>
>>> Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
>>>
>>> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell@comcast.net>
>>>
>>> An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which may be
>>> what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a 'better M' wi=
th
>>> aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.).
>>>
>>> I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but I'd be
>>> somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging an M body an=
d
>>> parts on a BN1 (a BN2, *maybe*). The main problem I see is an earnest
>>> owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, b=
ut
>>> an owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently
>>> forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock
>>> bands).
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>>>
>>> This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with that
>>> caveat. Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it need=
ed a
>>> new frame. How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body parts over t=
o a
>>> solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M
>>> Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body parts and cockpit
>>> surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engines have be=
en
>>> registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry.=
So
>>> is the BaT car still an M? Some pretty valuable race cars have been
>>> crashed and fitted with new chassis and still bring big money at auctio=
n.
>>>
>>> To me, what makes an M an M is the motor. If an M no longer has its
>>> original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an M=
.
>>> Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbe=
am
>>> Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it=
's
>>> got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tige=
r
>>> anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and
>>> distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an original =
M
>>> motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and =
put
>>> a dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a 100M=
cam
>>> in the lump!
>>>
>>> Happy Healeydays,
>>> Rick Neville
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05=E2=80=AFPM Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.n=
et>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Excellent report, thank you.
>>>>
>>>> I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but, sinc=
e
>>>> I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and could only
>>>> point out obvious differences with my car (which was completely origin=
al as
>>>> far as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One thing that was
>>>> somewhat disturbing to me is that the Registry certified this car, whi=
le
>>>> noting some major anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be new=
and
>>>> didn't have the hand scribing like my car).
>>>>
>>>> The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car? Yes,
>>>> it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value
>>>> *should* be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2. And,
>>>> what did the previous owner know, or should have known about this car?=
How
>>>> do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would need the
>>>> proverbial asterisk alongside the page title.
>>>>
>>>> Bob
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If you were following it recently, you might find my observations
>>>> interesting. So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him deter=
mine
>>>> if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
>>>>
>>>> It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1
>>>> front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket=
, as
>>>> the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have n=
o
>>>> evidence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mou=
nt
>>>> shows non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate=
the
>>>> BN2 mount.
>>>>
>>>> What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays
>>>> mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it different direction=
s to
>>>> just make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the t=
wo
>>>> relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area =
with
>>>> my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill t=
hose
>>>> 4 holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those =
holes
>>>> seem as they never existed. Along with that, where a BN2 would have t=
he
>>>> single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed i=
nto
>>>> welded captive nuts on the firewall, you can see plain sheet screws w=
ere
>>>> used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position.
>>>>
>>>> I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping.
>>>> Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end
>>>> result. I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared
>>>> identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear
>>>> original. Now that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M en=
gine,
>>>> because there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. A=
nyone
>>>> who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference =
in
>>>> power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power.
>>>>
>>>> The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off
>>>> another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows s=
ome
>>>> previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out=
any
>>>> evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I w=
ill
>>>> say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and
>>>> prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be f=
or
>>>> someone else to decide.
>>>>
>>>> Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original, and I simply don'=
t
>>>> have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old, it=
's
>>>> original. It does indeed look to have some age, so?
>>>>
>>>> I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort to
>>>> try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassi=
s.
>>>> Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the hole=
s
>>>> where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the per=
son
>>>> didn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought=
they
>>>> were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?
>>>>
>>>> With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car
>>>> correctly. The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is stra=
ight,
>>>> and gaps look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good=
car
>>>> all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience u=
nder
>>>> his belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the
>>>> restoration, it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets=
were
>>>> not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some
>>>> trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue.
>>>>
>>>> The Millers
>>>>
>>>> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a tes=
t
>>>> drive."
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
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>>>>
>>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
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>>>>
>>>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
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>>>>
>>>> =EF=BB=BF
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
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--0000000000008e0bb3060ca3e425
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr">Bob,<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As I prepare t=
o write this month's "Auction Report" for the <i>Healey Marqu=
e </i>this 100M discussion has been really helpful and interesting. I think=
your comment=C2=A0 " I was surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and=
distributor slide "=C2=A0 raises a great question of what exactly is =
the 100M certificate certifying? Bill Meade has written an article on what =
needs to be presented to be certified.=C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.1=
00mregistry.com/PROTECTING_YOUR_100M_Feb_2013.pdf">https://www.100mregistry=
.com/PROTECTING_YOUR_100M_Feb_2013.pdf=C2=A0</a>=C2=A0 =C2=A0But it seems t=
o me it mainly focuses on the body parts that it left the factory with. I f=
ind it interesting there's no necessity for pictures of the engine numb=
er.=C2=A0 And even if all the body parts, carbs, and distributor aren't=
there, Bill says in the article=C2=A0 "If some of these items are mis=
sing, let the Registry
know. It normally does not prevent registration provided
enough ID points are present."=C2=A0 So my impression, which I'll =
try to verify with Bill, is the certification is focused on the question wh=
ether this is the car that left the factory that matches the BMIHT certific=
ate saying it had a louvered hood and not so much on whether it still has a=
ll the original parts an M would have come with.</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 I think one of the benefits of the BaT comments for buyers (and prob=
ably not so much for sellers) is pointing out major deficiencies with an of=
fering. Some buyer might have paid way more this car than it would be worth=
if not for the "savage" comments.</div><div><br></div><div>Happy=
Healeydays</div><div>Rick Neville</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 11:46=E2=80=
=AFAM Bob Spidell <<a href=3D"mailto:bspidell@comcast.net";>bspidell@comc=
ast.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex"><u></u>
=20
=20
=20
<div>
I think that's indisputable (I unintentionally neglected to mention
that aspect). That, and the fact the kits were selling made a case
for selling the M (these days, that would take an army of marketing
people to figure out, with lots of 'data' of course, and maybe =
some
AI). Doesn't negate the strong showing of taking, IIRC, 3 cars off
the lot--or was that the Bonneville cars?--hanging a few fancy bits
on it and giving the bespoke Ferraris, Jags, Astons, Mercedeses etc.
a run for their money (the Healeys' rugged simplicity likely
helped). DMH was a brilliant marketer and salesman; he spotted the
'niche' hole between lower--performance MGs--we're talking =
TCs and
TDs, not Bs and Cs--and higher-performance but much more expensive
Jaguars and plugged it. History says he drove cross-county in the US
to gauge the market; probably why he made overdrive an option from
the get-go, for the wide-open US highways. I don't know Triumph
history that well, was the TR2 a contemporary of the 100?<br>
<br>
How many times have you been asked what your Healey is
worth--usually by a 'not-a-car-person'--and you've replied =
'Whatever
someone will pay me for it' (then, if the person seems genuinely
interested I may give a run-down of the contemporary market; these
days 'not so good'). It's the same with other marques; witn=
ess the
number of Chevelle SS 'tribute' cars going across the block at
auctions. Genuine Ms can command a 50-100% premium over comparable
100s; hence the intensity of the interest and critique. Did you
watch the BaT auction? It was pretty savage and enlightening, to me;
I was surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and distributor slide
(maybe he was tired of doing the registry thing). <br>
<br>
From the late, great Gary Anderson:<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019=
/03/The-Heritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf" target=3D"_blank">https://aus=
tinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Heritage-of-th=
e-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 12/16/2023 6:46 AM, Michael Oritt
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
=20
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,255)">Some fe=
el that
since DMH knew he was going to change over to a new car (the
100-6) he figured out a clever marketing=C2=A0ploy to get rid of
what might otherwise have become a
less-than-desirable=C2=A0inventory of late production 100's b=
y
outfitting some of the cars with the snazzy M upgrade.=C2=A0 If s=
o
it was probably never his intention nor in his comprehension
to produce=C2=A0what has ironically become a very special Healey
second only to the 100-S in collectibility.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,255)"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,255)">Best--M=
ichael
Oritt</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at
1:31=E2=80=AFAM Bob Spidell <<a href=3D"mailto:bspidell@comcas=
t.net" target=3D"_blank">bspidell@comcast.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div> The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the optional
branch extractor--as opposed to a stock BN2's 90HP. That=
9;s a
22% increase in power; I'd call that significant. Also, how
do you 'hang' a camshaft and pistons on an engine (the
mechanics were supposed to pull the engine, but if DMH and
Geoff weren't around they'd cheat and do the mods in si=
tu)?<br>
<br>
I think at least part of the value of an M is that it made
an appearance at the Healey factory, possibly with DMH
and/or Geoff in attendance, as opposed to just coming off
the Austin assembly line. Also, the modifications were, for
the most part, the same as made to the cars that ran at
LeMans in '52 ('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th) overall=
.
When customers started asking for the same modifications DMH
first sold a kit, then the complete car (anyone remember
'Race on Sunday, sell on Monday?').<br>
<br>
I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars command
a significant price premium (hence why of the original,
documented 640 cars only 3,000 remain). <br>
<br>
bs<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"auto">I'm not an "M" guy really bec=
ause as
someone mentioned there isn't that much to hanging the
"modification " parts on any 100.=C2=A0
<div dir=3D"auto">If the "M" designation involved
significant performance modifications,=C2=A0 say like an
"M" series BMW, which could not be easily copie=
d, then
I would consider them be very special.
<div dir=3D"auto">I understand that Mr Meade has now
sold his "M" so would not be surprised to see=
the
"Registry" fade away.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Just my opinion.=C2=A0</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">M</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri., Dec. 15,
2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys, <<a href=
=3D"mailto:healeys@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank">healeys@autox.team.net=
</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<pre id=3D"m_1603492253125454553m_-4413793566936237617m=
_-8948067483587624533tw-target-text" dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"text-align:left">=
<span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" lang=
=3D"en">What makes a 100M?=20
Very good question and not easy to answer.
In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is s=
ignificantly higher than the normal 100,=20
is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M i=
s nothing special. It's a modified 100 and=20
no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be suc=
h a major modification for me, as would a=20
conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburett=
ors, etc. This would be simply no longer a=20
Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the=
same money. But I have to admit, for me=20
the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It=
9;s a special model with a little more=20
horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW o=
r a AMG Mercedes.
Josef Eckert
Germany
</span></pre>
<p style=3D"margin:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:aria=
l,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);text-decoration:none=
">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:aria=
l,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);text-decoration:none=
">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px">=C2=A0</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px">=C2=A0</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px">-----Original-Nachricht-----</p=
>
<p style=3D"margin:0px">Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent
100M on BAT</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px">Datum:
2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px">Von: "Bob Spidell" &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:bspidell@comcast.net"; rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_bla=
nk">bspidell@comcast.net</a>></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px">An: "HealeyRick" <=
<a href=3D"mailto:healeyrik@gmail.com"; rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank"=
>healeyrik@gmail.com</a>></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px">=C2=A0</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px">=C2=A0</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font:12px Arial,Helvetic=
a,sans-serif">Note the
Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,&=
#39;
which may be what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have
noted you can build a 'better M' with afterma=
rket
parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.). <br>
<br>
I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a
100 chassis, but I'd be somewhat more sympathetic
to that, but not so much hanging an M body and
parts on a BN1 (a BN2, <em>maybe</em>). The main
problem I see is an earnest owner may sell a
conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full
disclosure, but an owner or two down the road the
'Tribute' tag has been conveniently forgotten=
(I'm
not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they car=
s or
rock bands).<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<div dir=3D"ltr">This is all hypothesis based on
speculation so take it with that caveat.=C2=A0
Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that
was so bad it needed a new frame.=C2=A0 How hard
would it be to transfer the 100M body parts
over to a solid BN1 chassis along with the
oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M
Registry seems to focus mostly on the original
body parts and cockpit surrounds to certify a
car. Even cars with non-original engines have
been registered. I'm pretty certain Kent
Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So is the
BaT car still an M?=C2=A0 Some pretty valuable ra=
ce
cars have been crashed and fitted with=C2=A0new
chassis and still bring big money at auction.=C2=
=A0
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>To me, what makes an M an M is the
motor.=C2=A0 If an M no longer has its original
motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its
character as an M. Otherwise, it's a BN2
with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a
Sunbeam Tiger blew its motor and it was
replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's
got the right serial number on the unibody,
but it's not much of a Tiger anymore. The
BaT car with what appears to be non-original
carbs and distributor caused me concern. Who
would remove those from an original M motor?
C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover,
remove the rockers and put a dial indicator
on the pushrods so we can see if there is
still a 100M cam in the lump!</div>
<div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>Happy Healeydays,</div>
<div>Rick Neville</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Dec
14, 2023 at 1:05=E2=80=AFPM Bob Spidell <<a =
href=3D"mailto:bspidell@comcast.net"; rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">b=
spidell@comcast.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"=
>
<div>Excellent report, thank you. <br>
<br>
I was one of the commenters on BaT--I
joined BaT to comment--but, since I have a
BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1
differences and could only point out
obvious differences with my car (which was
completely original as far as I can tell,
except for extensive body work). One thing
that was somewhat disturbing to me is that
the Registry certified this car, while
noting some major anomalies (the carbs,
for instance, looked to be new and didn't
have the hand scribing like my car). <br>
<br>
The other thing that interested me is, how
do you value this car? Yes, it's a very
nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO,
its value <em>should</em> be less than a
comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2.
And, what did the previous owner know, or
should have known about this car? How do
you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M
bits?' It would need the proverbial
asterisk alongside the page title.<br>
<br>
Bob<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller
wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<div style=3D"font-family:inherit;font-size=
:inherit;color:inherit;background-color:transparent">
<div>If you were following it
recently,=C2=A0 you might find my
observations interesting.=C2=A0 So I we=
nt
down to Michael's motor cars to hel=
p
him determine if the 100m indeed has
a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.</d=
iv>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>It has the BN1 inner fenders with
the rolled pressings. It has the BN1
front brake hose frame mount the is
less pronounced welded BN1 bracket,
as the later cars have a bolted on
bracket. The front shock towers have
no evidence of being replaced and
show the factory welds. The gearbox
mount shows non-original/factory
welds as if it were replaced to
accommodate the BN2 mount.=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>What I found most interesting is
that where a BN1 has two OD relays
mounted under the dash, it took
shining a light it different
directions to just make out the
slight evidence of filled holes (4
of then for the two relays). And I
was able to reach inside the vent
just below that area with my fingers
and feel the welds and welding wire
that was used to fill those 4 holes.
I can tell you someone took great
care to try and make those holes
seem as they never existed.=C2=A0 Along
with that, where a BN2 would have
the single OD relay attached to the
firewall with machine screws screwed
into welded captive nuts on the
firewall,=C2=A0 you can see plain sheet
screws were used to mount it in what
would be a BN2 relay position.=C2=A0</d=
iv>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>I also feel the engine tag is a
repo because of the lighter
stamping. Originals tend to have the
numbers/ letters stamped with a
deeper end result.=C2=A0 I took my repo
engine tag along to compare, and
they appeared identical in the
stampings. The body/ bath tag and
VIN plate appear original. Now that
doesn't mean that the engine isn=
9;t
the correct M engine, because there
could be many reasons why the engine
tag was replaced. Anyone who drove a
stock 100 compared to a 100M can
attest to the difference in power,
and Mike stated that it indeed has
that M power.=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>The boot lid shows no evidence of
the stay bracket being swapped off
another lid, and if you look closely
you can see that the boot shows some
previous age/life. I'd believe it t=
o
be original. I could not make out
any evidence of the bonnet number
being sliced in from a M bonnet, but
I will say that the underside of the
bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and
prestine. I couldn't detect any age
like the boot, but that would be for
someone else to decide.=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>Mike had asked me if the cold air
box was original,=C2=A0 and I simply
don't have that experience to know.
I have anyways heard if it looks
old, it's original.=C2=A0 It does i=
ndeed
look to have some age, so?</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>I feel at some point in this
car's life someone went to some
effort to try and conceal that these
100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1
chassis. Another interesting note is
that there was an attempt to fill
the holes where a BN1 chassis plate
is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps
the person didn't realize that the
holes continued over to the BN2's,
and thought they were erasing
evidence of a BN1 chassis?=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>With all that said, Mike is
simply trying to represent the car
correctly. The car is a very nice
car! Paint is very nice, car is
straight, and gaps look good.
Interior is very nice, and looks to
be a very good car all around. I
didn't drive the car, but Mike has
years of experience under his belt,
so I'd trust his opinions on that.
With the quality of the
restoration,=C2=A0 it is surprising tha=
t
the front frame to shroud brackets
were not welded to the frame. Chrome
looks good, and I'd think winning
some trophies at a popular vote car
would not be an issue.=C2=A0</div>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>The Millers<br>
=C2=A0<br>
"Always drive them, but remember eac=
h
drive in an antique car is a test
drive."</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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