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What makes a 100M?=20
Very good question and not easy to answer.
In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is s=
ignificantly higher than the normal 100,=20
is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M i=
s nothing special. It's a modified 100 and=20
no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be suc=
h a major modification for me, as would a=20
conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburett=
ors, etc. This would be simply no longer a=20
Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the=
same money. But I have to admit, for me=20
the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It's =
a special model with a little more=20
horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW o=
r a AMG Mercedes.
Josef Eckert
Germany
=20
=20
=20
=20
-----Original-Nachricht-----
Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell@comcast.net>
An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik@gmail.com>
=20
=20
=20
Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which may be=20
what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a 'better M' with=
=20
aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.).
I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but I'd be=20
somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging an M body and=20
parts on a BN1 (a BN2, maybe). The main problem I see is an earnest owner=
=20
may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, but an=20
owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently=20
forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock=20
bands).
On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with that
caveat. Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it
needed a new frame. How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body
parts over to a solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis
plate? The 100M Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body
parts and cockpit surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with
non-original engines have been registered. I'm pretty certain Kent
Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So is the BaT car still an M? Some
pretty valuable race cars have been crashed and fitted with new chassis
and still bring big money at auction.=20
=20
To me, what makes an M an M is the motor. If an M no longer has its
original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an
M. Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a
Sunbeam Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor.
Sure, it's got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not
much of a Tiger anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be
non-original carbs and distributor caused me concern. Who would remove
those from an original M motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve
cover, remove the rockers and put a dial indicator on the pushrods so
we can see if there is still a 100M cam in the lump!
=20
Happy Healeydays,
Rick Neville
On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05=E2=80=AFPM Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.n=
et
Excellent report, thank you.
I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but,
since I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and
could only point out obvious differences with my car (which was
completely original as far as I can tell, except for extensive body
work). One thing that was somewhat disturbing to me is that the
Registry certified this car, while noting some major anomalies (the
carbs, for instance, looked to be new and didn't have the hand
scribing like my car).
The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car?
Yes, it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value=
=20
should be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2. And,
what did the previous owner know, or should have known about this
car? How do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would
need the proverbial asterisk alongside the page title.
Bob
On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
If you were following it recently, you might find my
observations interesting. So I went down to Michael's motor cars
to help him determine if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here
is what I found.
=20
It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has
the BN1 front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced
welded BN1 bracket, as the later cars have a bolted on bracket.
The front shock towers have no evidence of being replaced and
show the factory welds. The gearbox mount shows
non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate
the BN2 mount.=20
=20
What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD
relays mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it
different directions to just make out the slight evidence of
filled holes (4 of then for the two relays). And I was able to
reach inside the vent just below that area with my fingers and
feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those 4
holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make
those holes seem as they never existed. Along with that, where a
BN2 would have the single OD relay attached to the firewall with
machine screws screwed into welded captive nuts on the firewall,=
=20
you can see plain sheet screws were used to mount it in what
would be a BN2 relay position.=20
=20
I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter
stamping. Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped
with a deeper end result. I took my repo engine tag along to
compare, and they appeared identical in the stampings. The body/
bath tag and VIN plate appear original. Now that doesn't mean
that the engine isn't the correct M engine, because there could
be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone who drove
a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in
power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power.=20
=20
The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped
off another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the
boot shows some previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original.
I could not make out any evidence of the bonnet number being
sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will say that the underside of
the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and prestine. I couldn't
detect any age like the boot, but that would be for someone else
to decide.=20
=20
Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original, and I simply
don't have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it
looks old, it's original. It does indeed look to have some age,
so?
=20
I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some
effort to try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled
on a BN1 chassis. Another interesting note is that there was an
attempt to fill the holes where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on
the frame rail. Perhaps the person didn't realize that the holes
continued over to the BN2's, and thought they were erasing
evidence of a BN1 chassis?=20
=20
With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car
correctly. The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is
straight, and gaps look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to
be a very good car all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike
has years of experience under his belt, so I'd trust his opinions
on that. With the quality of the restoration, it is surprising
that the front frame to shroud brackets were not welded to the
frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some trophies at
a popular vote car would not be an issue.=20
=20
The Millers
=20
"Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is
a test drive."
_______________________________________________
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=
=3DUTF-8"/><title></title></head><body><pre id=3D"tw-target-text" class=3D"=
tw-data-text tw-text-large tw-ta" dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"text-align: left;" d=
ata-placeholder=3D"Übersetzung" data-ved=3D"2ahUKEwjns4OUh5KDAxW8hv0HH=
YUsB5kQ3ewLegQIChAP"><span class=3D"Y2IQFc" lang=3D"en" style=3D"font-size:=
12pt; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">What makes a 100M? <br /=
>Very good question and not easy to answer.<br /><br />In my opinion, an Au=
stin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is significantly higher =
than the normal 100, <br />is a car that any modification reduces its value=
. A heavily modified 100M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and <br /=
>no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be su=
ch a major modification for me, as would a <br />conversion to disc brakes =
at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be si=
mply no longer a <br />Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Au=
stin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to admit, for me <br />the h=
ype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It's a spe=
cial model with a little more <br />horsepower, but not anything particular=
ly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes.<br /><br />Josef Ecke=
rt<br />Germany<br /></span></pre>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none"> </span></p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none"> </span></p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;"> </p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;"> </p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;">-----Original-Nachricht-----</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;">Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;">Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;">Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell@comcast.net></=
p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;">An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik@gmail.com></p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;"> </p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;"> </p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;"> </p>
<div style=3D"position: relative; color: #000000; font: 12px Arial,Helvetic=
a,sans-serif;">Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' w=
hich may be what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a 'bett=
er M' with aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.). <br /><br /=
>I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but I'd be so=
mewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging an M body and part=
s on a BN1 (a BN2, <em>maybe</em>). The main problem I see is an earnest ow=
ner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, but an =
owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently forgotte=
n (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock bands).<br />=
<br /><br />
<div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:</di=
v>
<blockquote cite=3D"mid:CAGfzsZdUxjxb4Z3aPT5RgKzxT7tRj435g_nHJQ2z3Vq19sFZ4g=
@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir=3D"ltr">This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it wit=
h that caveat. Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad=
it needed a new frame. How hard would it be to transfer the 100M bod=
y parts over to a solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis p=
late? The 100M Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body parts an=
d cockpit surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engines h=
ave been registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the regi=
stry. So is the BaT car still an M? Some pretty valuable race cars ha=
ve been crashed and fitted with new chassis and still bring big money =
at auction.
<div> </div>
<div>To me, what makes an M an M is the motor. If an M no longer has =
its original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an M=
. Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbeam=
Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's =
got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tiger an=
ymore. The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and distribut=
or caused me concern. Who would remove those from an original M motor? C'mo=
n 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and put a dial indi=
cator on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a 100M cam in the lum=
p!</div>
<div>
<div> </div>
<div>Happy Healeydays,</div>
<div>Rick Neville</div>
</div>
</div>
<br />
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05=E2=80=AF=
PM Bob Spidell <<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"mailto:bspide=
ll@comcast.net">bspidell@comcast.net</a>> wrote:</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; borde=
r-left: 1px solid #cccccc; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>Excellent report, thank you. <br /><br />I was one of the commenters o=
n BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but, since I have a BN2/100M I'm not famili=
ar with BN1 differences and could only point out obvious differences with m=
y car (which was completely original as far as I can tell, except for exten=
sive body work). One thing that was somewhat disturbing to me is that the R=
egistry certified this car, while noting some major anomalies (the carbs, f=
or instance, looked to be new and didn't have the hand scribing like my car=
). <br /><br />The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this=
car? Yes, it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value=
<em>should</em> be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2. A=
nd, what did the previous owner know, or should have known about this car? =
How do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would need the p=
roverbial asterisk alongside the page title.<br /><br />Bob<br /><br /><br =
/><br />
<div>On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<div style=3D"font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit; color: inherit; bac=
kground-color: transparent;">
<div>If you were following it recently, you might find my observation=
s interesting. So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him det=
ermine if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1=
front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as=
the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have no ev=
idence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mount show=
s non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate the BN2 =
mount. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays mo=
unted under the dash, it took shining a light it different directions to ju=
st make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two rela=
ys). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area with my f=
ingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those 4 ho=
les. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those holes see=
m as they never existed. Along with that, where a BN2 would have the =
single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed into w=
elded captive nuts on the firewall, you can see plain sheet screws we=
re used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping. =
Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end resul=
t. I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared iden=
tical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear original. N=
ow that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M engine, because th=
ere could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone who drove=
a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in power, and =
Mike stated that it indeed has that M power. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off a=
nother lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows some pr=
evious age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out any ev=
idence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will say=
that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and prestine. I=
couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for someone else =
to decide. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original, and I simply=
don't have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old, =
it's original. It does indeed look to have some age, so?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort to=
try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis. A=
nother interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the holes wher=
e a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the person didn'=
t realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought they were=
erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis? </div>
<div> </div>
<div>With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car correct=
ly. The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is straight, and ga=
ps look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car all ar=
ound. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience under his be=
lt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the restoration,=
it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets were not we=
lded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some trophies a=
t a popular vote car would not be an issue. </div>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The Millers<br /> <br />"Always drive them, but remember each dri=
ve in an antique car is a test drive."</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br />Support Team.Net <a cl=
ass=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html"; rel=
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</div>
</blockquote>
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