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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Scott--
You're right, you are going to get overwhelmed with opinions and ideas, =
and likely, most of them will be fine. I think prepping a car for a =
good paint job is a lot like being around a bunch of good cooks. They =
are all going to have different ways to make the best marinara sauce, =
but I betcha in the end, they will all be great.
If you want, I once put down on paper, for a fellow Club member, =
more-or-less how I've done it. But, I won't send it unless you want it. =
Like you've already correctly observed, you are likely to get =
overwhelmed.
The other thing I would "warn" you against is that I've often been =
around folks who insist you must use "brand X's ____________". That's =
BS. There's a lot of good companies out there, and as long as you are =
using compatible, QUALITY products, it (IMHO), doesn't matter a hoot =
which brand you use, and to an even more controversial opinion, you can =
even mix/match stages, as long as you are following the advice of =
someone who knows what the heck they are doing.
Thus, my one "ABSOLUTE" bit of advice would be to get hooked up with a =
quality auto body supplier in your area. Find the person who knows =
their stuff, AND STICK WITH THAT PERSON. If you are like a friend of =
mine who insists on shopping the best price for every little thing he =
needs, including on-line, and drive to each of 358 stores in the area to =
save 3 cents on a gallon of ________, then you will never build a good =
relationship/rapport with a person who can tell you how to substitute =
certain things for the more expensive things and save some real money, =
and can answer that question of " . . . why is my surfacer coming off" =
and those types of things. For an example, I do like PPG paint =
products, but they are very expensive. If you believe the advice of =
some, then you should use EVERYthing PPG . . . gosh, PPG abrasive paper, =
PPG measuring cups, PPG funnels, PPG lacquer thinner, PPG epoxy sealer, =
blah, blah, blah. You will know you are doing it right, when the CEO of =
PPG sends you a bottle of 50 yr. old Scotch for your birthday.
However, a good supplier will tell you that you can readily subsitute =
other (even) less expensive PPG products for some of the prep stages. =
Or gosh golly, even use a totally different brand of better surfacer, =
saving about $200 per gallon. I won't bore you with the names of what I =
use, 'cuz I live in CA, and we have things you can't buy (and probably =
don't want to buy . . . . $$$$), and you probably have access to a =
wider variety of products, no doubt at a reduced price.
In the briefest note possible, I'll throw this out there, and then =
everyone else can whack it to pieces. Based on the fact you said you're =
already down to mostly bare metal (Re-reading, this, it is far longer =
than I anticipated, but I still consider it a BRIEF summary!!!! This is =
a complex topic, IMHO!!!!)"
Use a self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer. No need nowadays to use a =
separate self-etching primer.
Do your initial repairs . . . . banging out, metal work, filling of =
deepest/worse areas. =20
Re-apply the self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer in any areas where =
you may have exposed bare metal. The idea is never to have actual bare =
metal . . . at this stage. If you've only got a few, very small bare =
areas, you might want to buy some self-etching sealer in a spray can. =
Tis expensive, about $18 for a large spray can, but it beats, sometimes, =
making up your spray gun, cleaning, etc.
Don't try and get the surface perfect yet. Use a good quality filler, =
if needed, and long boards or foam boards to around 120. The sealer =
you've applied thus far is really NOT "surfacer", it is not intended for =
a surface finish, in fact, it is not even intended to be "sanded" at =
all. Don't panic, you're no where's near done here . . . your filled =
repairs are still rough, and you no doubt still have scratchs, maybe =
even some very small dings.
Apply a good coat of a good quality surfacer. You get what you pay for. =
Super cheap surfacer is exactly that. Do NOT buy anything that claims =
to seal and surface (and cure cancer) in the same can.
Additional filler repairs can continue. If your repair is "almost" =
perfect, just needs a "wee bit" more, now you move up to what is =
commonly called a "skim" product, intended to be put no more than a =
1/16" or so thick, and mostly sanded off. The beauty of these products =
is that they go on much easier, and sand off so much easier. There are =
different "grades" of skim products, I actually use a third, very fine =
one . . . like if I see an air bubble, or a scratch. Don't fill these =
minor imperfections with your "basic filler" stuff . . . .it is too =
thick, too heavy, and too hard to get a fine surface when sanding. This =
is one of the biggest lessons I've learned, in the fairly recent past. =
You might be saying "OK, why not just use that "skim" stuff for the deep =
repairs?" 'Cuz it does not have the strength of the good filler =
products. Most filler products have some kind of reinforced fiberglass =
in them. One brand I would recommend is MarGlass . . . for a deep =
repair, where metalwork just has not totally worked. Normal depth =
repairs are done with a "regular" fill product, which your supplier can =
recommend. I have my favorites. You now commonly ready in magazines =
that the entire car was skimmed. I don't do that, but I understand why =
. . .=20
Continue to apply surfacer as needed. You will keep moving up the "grit =
scale", to around 280 or so "dry".
Now, buy a spray can of "Guide coat", which you apply very lightly . . . =
creating a speckle/overspray kind of coat. Do not try to save $8 bucks =
here and use flat black spray paint. Did that once . . . not good. =
Now, using around 280 or so, either a long board or long foam piece, =
sand across contours, with 2 - 3 good strokes. Immediately, you will =
observe the low spots. How low? A tad bit? May be able to bring up =
with a heavy application of surfacer. Miss a ding or much deeper? May =
need to go back to filler or skim. I'm currently helping a Club member =
with his B. He had it professionally painted. Terrible paint job. I =
didn't want to say anything, but in short, no one guide coated that car. =
There are a dozen or so very visible dings just on the back end of the =
car. Sad.
Repeat the above steps until, when you guide coat, with only 2 - 3 =
strokes, it is perfect. Don't get "cute" and say "Oh, I can sand that =
black stuff out of there!!!!" Sure you can, but you're only cheating =
yourself.
Should, at any point, you hit bare metal, hit it with self-etching, =
epoxy - catalytic sealer
Once the guide coat is perfect, now lay in a supply of perhaps 320 (I =
usually skip the 320 stage), and 400 wet-or-dry. Now, you proceed to =
wet sand the car. An empty spray bottle of water is helpful. Lots of =
water. When this stage is done, you go over the car with a good, strong =
light . . . looking for scratches or other imperfections. Never kid =
yourself that the color coat" will take care of it, or hide it. =
Actually, color coat will make most imperfections look far worse. Any =
problems, fix 'em now. You can buy a "variety" pack of the various =
shapes of the "new" foam blocks . . . highly recommeded.
Apply one final coat of self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer. This =
stuff is the "new" magic. It absolutely allows your color coat to bond. =
TRY to the color coat as quickly as possible to the application of the =
self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer -- with some brands, like within =
TEN minutes. Do NOT sand or abrade the self-etching, epoxy - catalytic =
sealer--you do NOT want to scratch or penetrate the self-etching, epoxy =
- catalytic sealer with anything like a scratch. Working alone, I find =
I can't do this step "properly" (meaning that quickly), but it still =
seems to work OK. The PPG rep would probably say otherwise.
One "trick" I might throw in here, is this: With the high cost of good =
paint, I will use a lesser quality paint, of the same type and color =
(duh) for things like the interior (all covred over anyway), inside =
fender wells, the boot, the engine bay, inside/under the boot/boonet =
lids, etc. Thus, I may only need 1 gallon of the really expensive =
stuff, and 1 gallon of the other. A local company, which is becoming =
huge, and has a huge online presence, is TCP Global. They make (I =
believe made by ValSpar . . . now a much bigger player in the auto =
refinishing business -- having bought out a few other companies =
recently) their own brand of polyurethane paint, totally compatible with =
things like PPG Concept, at about 1/4 the price. I find it easier to =
spray and work with than the good stuff! I'm tempted to do an entire =
car with it. We'll see . . . but I've already bought the PPG paint for =
the Magnette . . . so whatever car comes up after the Magnette!!!! =20
Spray the color coat . . . the easy part, actually, You've done all the =
hard work above. Put on plenty of paint (at least 3 - 4 "double" =
coats), so you have plenty to color sand/buff.
Color Sand
Buff
We'll cover those two stages later!
Collect your First place trophy
You might say "Wow, that is too much work. I'll just let a shop do it." =
Sure, most folks do, and you can get some great jobs out there. What =
I've observed so often, is that naturally, you don't want to spend more =
money that necessary, so the shop sounds good, and you go with them. =
Sometimes, the results are fantastic, and sometimes they are horrid. =
I've seen some great jobs at reasonable prices, and I've also seen some =
dowright awful jobs, where folks paid waaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much =
money. There are some real craftsman out there, and there are some real =
hacks. If I was going to have a shop do it, I'd insist on seeing past =
customer's cars. Don't just listen to their speel. I'd make sure they =
list what they are going to do, step-by-step. I'd be dropping by often =
to make sure they are doing it. I want to say you are going to get what =
you pay for, but that doesn't always seem to be the case. I will say =
this: I've been asked to paint other people's cars. I simply =
can't/won't. I'm way too slow, and make mistakes. The cost of =
materials, for me, far exceeds what I see people getting their cars =
painted for. IF I was to paint a Magnette, which I will be doing one of =
these fine milleniums, which did not need extensive metal work, rust =
repair or welding, I would start at $10,000. I know you just flipped, =
but I think that is realistic for a really good paint job. =20
. . . and Happy Holidays.
#2SteveK
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Scott Woolman=20
To: List for the Z Magnette Group - North America=20
Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2013 10:43 AM
Subject: [Zmagnette] Paint
At a risk of getting overwhelmed with opinions. Here is my question. =
My MG is down to metal all rust and body is done. Should I use an =
acrylic etching primer then a sandable primer.=20
Thanks
Scott =20
Sent from my iPhone
_______________________________________________
Zmagnette mailing list
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
Unsubscribe/Manage: =
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/zmagnette/skirby210@cox.net
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<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Scott--</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You're right, you are going to get overwhelmed with opinions and =
ideas, and=20
likely, most of them will be fine. I think prepping a car for a =
good paint=20
job is a lot like being around a bunch of good cooks. They are all =
going=20
to have different ways to make the best marinara sauce, but I betcha in =
the end,=20
they will all be great.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If you want, I once put down on paper, for a fellow Club member,=20
more-or-less how I've done it. But, I won't send it unless you =
want=20
it. Like you've already correctly observed, you are likely to get=20
overwhelmed.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The other thing I would "warn" you against is that I've often been =
around=20
folks who insist you must use "brand X's ____________". That's =
BS. =20
There's a lot of good companies out there, and as long as you are using=20
compatible, QUALITY products, it (IMHO), doesn't matter a hoot which =
brand you=20
use, and to an even more controversial opinion, you can even mix/match =
stages,=20
as long as you are following the advice of someone who knows what the =
heck they=20
are doing.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thus, my one "ABSOLUTE" bit of advice would be to get hooked up =
with a=20
quality auto body supplier in your area. Find the person who knows =
their=20
stuff, AND STICK WITH THAT PERSON. If you are like a friend =
of mine=20
who insists on shopping the best price for every little thing he needs,=20
including on-line, and drive to each of 358 stores in the area to save 3 =
cents=20
on a gallon of ________, then you will never build a good =
relationship/rapport=20
with a person who can tell you how to substitute certain things for the =
more=20
expensive things and save some real money, and can answer that question =
of " . .=20
. why is my surfacer coming off" and those types of things. For an =
example, I do like PPG paint products, but they are very =
expensive. If you=20
believe the advice of some, then you should use EVERYthing PPG . . . =
gosh, PPG=20
abrasive paper, PPG measuring cups, PPG funnels, PPG lacquer thinner, =
PPG epoxy=20
sealer, blah, blah, blah. You will know you are doing it right, =
when the=20
CEO of PPG sends you a bottle of 50 yr. old Scotch for your =
birthday.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>However, a good supplier will tell you that you can readily =
subsitute other=20
(even) less expensive PPG products for some of the prep stages. Or =
gosh=20
golly, even use a totally different brand of better surfacer, saving =
about $200=20
per gallon. I won't bore you with the names of what I use, 'cuz I =
live in=20
CA, and we have things you can't buy (and probably don't want to =
buy . . .=20
. $$$$), and you probably have access to a wider variety of =
products, no=20
doubt at a reduced price.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In the briefest note possible, I'll throw this out there, and then =
everyone=20
else can whack it to pieces. Based on the fact you said you're =
already=20
down to mostly bare metal (Re-reading, this, it is far longer than I=20
anticipated, but I still consider it a BRIEF summary!!!! This is a =
complex=20
topic, IMHO!!!!)"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Use a self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer. No need =
nowadays to use=20
a separate self-etching primer.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Do your initial repairs . . . . banging out, metal work, filling of =
deepest/worse areas. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Re-apply the self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer in any areas =
where you=20
may have exposed bare metal. The idea is <U>never </U>to have =
actual bare=20
metal . . . at this stage. If you've only got a few, very small =
bare=20
areas, you might want to buy some self-etching sealer in a spray =
can. =20
Tis expensive, about $18 for a large spray can, but it beats, sometimes, =
making=20
up your spray gun, cleaning, etc.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Don't try and get the surface perfect yet. Use a good quality =
filler,=20
if needed, and long boards or foam boards to around 120. The =
sealer you've=20
applied thus far is really NOT "surfacer", it is not intended for a =
surface=20
finish, in fact, it is not even intended to be "sanded" at all. =
Don't=20
panic, you're no where's near done here . . . your filled repairs are =
still=20
rough, and you no doubt still have scratchs, maybe even some very small=20
dings.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Apply a good coat of a good quality surfacer. You get what =
you pay=20
for. Super cheap surfacer is exactly that. Do NOT buy =
anything that=20
claims to seal and surface (and cure cancer) in the same can.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Additional filler repairs can continue. If your repair is =
"almost"=20
perfect, just needs a "wee bit" more, now you move up to what is =
commonly called=20
a "skim" product, intended to be put no more than a 1/16" or so thick, =
and=20
mostly sanded off. The beauty of these products is that they go on =
much=20
easier, and sand off so much easier. There are different "grades" =
of skim=20
products, I actually use a third, very fine one . . . like if I see an =
air=20
bubble, or a scratch. Don't fill these minor imperfections with =
your=20
"basic filler" stuff . . . .it is too thick, too heavy, and too hard to =
get a=20
fine surface when sanding. This is one of the biggest lessons I've =
learned, in the fairly recent past. You might be saying "OK, why =
not just=20
use that "skim" stuff for the deep repairs?" 'Cuz it does not have =
the=20
strength of the good filler products. Most filler products have =
some kind=20
of reinforced fiberglass in them. One brand I would recommend is =
MarGlass=20
. . . for a deep repair, where metalwork just has not totally =
worked. =20
Normal depth repairs are done with a "regular" fill product, which your =
supplier=20
can recommend. I have my favorites. You now commonly ready =
in=20
magazines that the entire car was skimmed. I don't do that, but I=20
understand why . . . </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Continue to apply surfacer as needed. You will keep moving up =
the=20
"grit scale", to around 280 or so "dry".</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Now, buy a spray can of "Guide coat", which you apply very lightly =
. . .=20
creating a speckle/overspray kind of coat. Do not try to save $8 =
bucks=20
here and use flat black spray paint. Did that once . . . not =
good. =20
Now, using around 280 or so, either a long board or long foam piece, =
sand across=20
contours, with 2 - 3 good strokes. Immediately, you will observe =
the low=20
spots. How low? A tad bit? May be able to bring up =
with a=20
heavy application of surfacer. Miss a ding or much deeper? =
May need=20
to go back to filler or skim. I'm currently helping a Club member =
with his=20
B. He had it professionally painted. Terrible paint =
job. I=20
didn't want to say anything, but in short, no one guide coated that =
car. =20
There are a dozen or so very visible dings just on the back end of the=20
car. Sad.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Repeat the above steps until, when you guide coat, with only 2 - 3 =
strokes,=20
it is perfect. Don't get "cute" and say "Oh, I can sand that black =
stuff=20
out of there!!!!" Sure you can, but you're only cheating =
yourself.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Should, at any point, you hit bare metal, hit it with self-etching, =
epoxy -=20
catalytic sealer</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Once the guide coat is perfect, now lay in a supply of perhaps 320 =
(I=20
usually skip the 320 stage), and 400 wet-or-dry. Now, you proceed =
to wet=20
sand the car. An empty spray bottle of water is helpful. =
Lots of=20
water. When this stage is done, you go over the car with a good, =
strong=20
light . . . looking for scratches or other imperfections. Never =
kid=20
yourself that the color coat" will take care of it, or hide it. =
Actually,=20
color coat will make most imperfections look far worse. Any =
problems, fix=20
'em now. You can buy a "variety" pack of the various shapes of the =
"new"=20
foam blocks . . . highly recommeded.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Apply one final coat of self-etching, epoxy - catalytic =
sealer. This=20
stuff is the "new" magic. It absolutely allows your color coat to=20
bond. TRY to the color coat as quickly as possible to the =
application of=20
the self-etching, epoxy - catalytic sealer -- with some brands, like =
within TEN=20
minutes. Do NOT sand or abrade the self-etching, epoxy - catalytic =
sealer--you do NOT want to scratch or penetrate the self-etching, epoxy =
-=20
catalytic sealer with anything like a scratch. Working alone, I =
find I=20
can't do this step "properly" (meaning that quickly), but it still seems =
to work=20
OK. The PPG rep would probably say otherwise.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>One "trick" I might throw in here, is this: With the high =
cost of=20
good paint, I will use a lesser quality paint, of the same type and =
color (duh)=20
for things like the interior (all covred over anyway), inside fender =
wells, the=20
boot, the engine bay, inside/under the boot/boonet lids, etc. =
Thus, I may=20
only need 1 gallon of the really expensive stuff, and 1 gallon of the=20
other. A local company, which is becoming huge, and has a huge =
online=20
presence, is TCP Global. They make (I believe made =
by ValSpar .=20
. . now a much bigger player in the auto refinishing business -- having =
bought=20
out a few other companies recently) their own brand of polyurethane =
paint,=20
totally compatible with things like PPG Concept, at about 1/4 the =
price. I=20
find it easier to spray and work with than the good stuff! I'm =
tempted to=20
do an entire car with it. We'll see . . . but I've already bought =
the PPG=20
paint for the Magnette . . . so whatever car comes up after the=20
Magnette!!!! </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Spray the color coat . . . the easy part, actually, You've =
done all=20
the hard work above. Put on plenty of paint (at least 3 - 4 =
"double"=20
coats), so you have plenty to color sand/buff.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Color Sand</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Buff</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>We'll cover those two stages later!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Collect your First place trophy</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You might say "Wow, that is too much work. I'll just let a =
shop do=20
it." Sure, most folks do, and you can get some great jobs out =
there. =20
What I've observed so often, is that naturally, you don't want to spend =
more=20
money that necessary, so the shop sounds good, and you go with =
them. =20
Sometimes, the results are fantastic, and sometimes they are=20
horrid. I've seen some great jobs at reasonable =
prices, and=20
I've also seen some dowright awful jobs, where folks paid=20
waaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much money. There are some real =
craftsman out=20
there, and there are some real hacks. If I was going to have a =
shop do it,=20
I'd insist on seeing past customer's cars. Don't just listen to =
their=20
speel. I'd make sure they list what they are going to do,=20
step-by-step. I'd be dropping by often to make sure they are doing =
it. I want to say you are going to get what you pay for, but that =
doesn't=20
always seem to be the case. I will say this: I've been asked =
to=20
paint other people's cars. I simply can't/won't. I'm way too =
slow,=20
and make mistakes. The cost of materials, for me, far exceeds what =
I see=20
people getting their cars painted for. IF I was to paint a =
Magnette, which=20
I will be doing one of these fine milleniums, which did not need =
extensive metal=20
work, rust repair or welding, I would start at $10,000. I know you =
just=20
flipped, but I think that is realistic for a really good paint =
job. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> . . . and Happy Holidays.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>#2SteveK</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dscottewoolman@hotmail.com=20
href=3D"mailto:scottewoolman@hotmail.com";>Scott Woolman</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dzmagnette@autox.team.net=20
href=3D"mailto:zmagnette@autox.team.net";>List for the Z Magnette Group =
- North=20
America</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 25, =
2013 10:43=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Zmagnette] =
Paint</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>At a risk of getting overwhelmed with opinions. Here is =
my=20
question. My MG is down to metal all rust and body is done. =
Should I use=20
an acrylic etching primer then a sandable primer.=20
<BR>Thanks<BR>Scott <BR><BR>Sent from my=20
iPhone<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Zmagnette =
mailing=20
list<BR><BR>Donate: <A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html";>http://www.team.net/donate.html<=
/A><BR>Archive:=20
<A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.team.net/archive";>http://www.team.net/archive</A><BR>F=
orums:=20
<A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.team.net/forums";>http://www.team.net/forums</A><BR>Uns=
ubscribe/Manage:=20
<A=20
=
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