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..agreed  :-)   but..  (gotta' throw in on caveat)
they will perform the same...IF all cyls are performing the same ....
variations the meters don't respond to
EG: valve sealing, compression, ring blow by all dismissed as 'noise'
via the cross port in the manifold.
Just wondering... Q for the crowd at large.... does anyone still useÂ
the little rods in the tops of their carbs for balancing?
(usually little kits with a jet wrench and etc)
v/r
ptegler
On 10/16/2018 12:58 PM, DAVID MASSEY wrote:
> First off, let me say that if you don't have a flow meter, using the
> hose/listening method works well enough for our primitive engines.Â
> But the meter will provide greater accuracy. Sure putting the airflow
> meter effects the flow through the carb (a bit) but we are not trying
> to get an absolute calibration. We want a relative calibration and if
> both carbs behave the same with the flow meter in place they are set
> the same. And that is the end result desired.
>
> Dave Massey
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ptegler <ptegler@verizon.net>
> To: dave1massey <dave1massey@cs.com>; trguy75 <trguy75@gmail.com>;
> triumphs <triumphs@autox.team.net>
> Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 11:27 am
> Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues
>
> agreed.... especially considering that no one stated the human ear was
> 'better' than an instrument. BUT.....
> Take a look at any procedure for multiple carbs (greater than two) Â
> EG: quads on a bike or 8/12 carbs on a Ferrari. ...even three DCOEs on
> a Triumph 6
> NONE suggest a flow meter blocking the intake. On most bike engines
> you use multiple water columns via taps on the sides of the carbs
> specifically designed to facilitate balancing. Compared to most LBC's
> none have a balance port in the intake manifold so no 'cross
> contamination ' from air flow via another carb. Block one of four bike
> carbs and the engine will slow very noticeably.
>
> sure the 'premise' is you block both carbs (one at a time) but neither
> is 'as is' when running. When you place the meter over the carb throat
> you change the depression and running position of the piston in the
> throat. Air volume vs velocity is changed...effecting the carb
> operations, both air AND fuel. when you slow down the air velocity it
> doesn't pull as much fuel, and starts consuming air from the other
> carb via the balance port in the manifold etc etc.
>
> You need to use whatever method best suites your sensibilities. As too
> the repercussions of you procedures. Each case is different, each case
> has different expediencies, habits and results  :-)
>
> ptegler
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey@cs.com>
> To: ptegler <ptegler@verizon.net>; trguy75 <trguy75@gmail.com>;
> triumphs <triumphs@autox.team.net>
> Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 7:34 am
> Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues
>
>
> Seriously though.... what method didyou use to balance the air
> flow at idle? One of those little flow meters?
> NOPE NADA STOP right there.  Think about it...you're sealing off
> the air to get the bubble to rise so of course the idle
> changes....so the balance tube in the manifold sucks from the
> other carb, bypassing the fuel pull.
>
>
> What are you talking about? Sure you affect airflow with the airflow
> meter but you are affecting both carbs equally when you switch from
> carb to carb. If you get the same reading from both they are being
> effected the same and have the same starting point. The concept that
> the human ear is better than an instrument specifically designed to
> measure airflow is pure hubris.
>
> One thing to watch out for is assuming that since the carbs are
> balanced at idle they are balanced under throttle. Be very careful
> when tightening down the linkage to ensure that both carbs open
> simultaneously. This is particularly important on the TR6-style
> linkage that has built-in disengagement zones.
>
>
> Dave Massey
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Tegler <ptegler@verizon.net>
> To: Jim Henningsen <trguy75@gmail.com>; triumphs <triumphs@autox.team.net>
> Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 3:16 am
> Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues
>
> ok....what do you mean by 'carbs aren't running smoothly'Â ?
> Engine is not smooth?.. sputtering? not running smooth while cruising?
> An old adage.... (well two actually)
> "..most carb problems are electrical..." and "..most ignition problems
> are the carbs"
> Seriously though.... what method didyou use to balance the air flow at
> idle? One of those little flow meters?
> NOPE NADA STOP right there.  Think about it...you're sealing off the
> air to get the bubble to rise so of course the idle changes....so the
> balance tube in the manifold sucks from the other carb, bypassing the
> fuel pull.
> I was finally convinced by an old mechanic and have learned from
> tuning more SU and ZS carbs than I care to mention.... use a 1/4" fuel
> line as a stethoscope ...one end in your ear..the other just up
> against the edge (not in) the carb throat. blocks minimal air... and
> believe me you can hear as little 1-2 cfm readily, but you can also
> hear the gurgle of the fuel flow!  Years ago I actually gave away my
> flow gauges.
> Eons ago..I got so fed up once I bought brand new NOS SU carbs to
> replace mine after three rebuilds of the orig units. BUT...STILL had
> the same issue...smooth speed cruising and it ran like crap. Pull the
> choke out and it ran fine, but had to push it in at closed or low
> speed throttle. Spent a year+ and hundreds of messages on various LBC
> lists....still to no avail. Than one day at a car show.... I saw a
> guy with an identical setup.... open big round K&Ns and a end plate
> but had his air filters nearly 3/4 closed off with duct tape. In the
> end, the problem was incorrect vacuum effects ...not enough air
> velocity when the piston was mid/down as there was no restriction from
> the air filters.
> hhmmm.... ok...
> http://www.teglerizer.com/mgstuff/a_stumble_at_cruise.htm
>
>
> ptegler
>
>
> On 10/15/2018 7:40 PM, Jim Henningsen wrote:
>
> Ok, I thought I had this rebuild all nailed down. Finally got around to
> getting carbs balanced and set for correct mixture. After new kits,
> testing
> piston drop timing per John Twist you tube clip (great clip), and spending
> two hours fine tuning air flow and mixture. The carbs aren't running
> smoothly. There is something not right and I am throwing in the towel.
> Don't have a reliable mechanic that I trust for this in Ocala. Any
> recommendations on a rebuilder to send these two to have them checked
> professionally.
>
> Joe Curto?
> Jeff Payla at Paltech - cant seem to get a response from him.
> Buy new (ouch)
> Others?
>
> Thanks in advance
> Jim Henningsen
> Ocala FL
> 61 TR3A eager to enjoy driving it in fall in Florida
> 62 TR4 eager to have restoration finished
> 75 TR6 eager to have new race motor put in
> 82 Jeep ld reliable - get in and go
> 2002 Triumph Trophy 1200 eager to just get out and be used.
>
>
> **triumphs@autox.team.net **
>
> Donate:http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive:http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/ptegler@verizon.net
>
>
> --
> Paul Tegler
> ptegler@verizon.net www.teglerizer.com
>
>
--
Paul Tegler
ptegler@verizon.net www.teglerizer.com
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<p>..agreed  :-)   but..  (gotta' throw in on caveat)<br>
they will perform the same...IF all cyls are performing the same
.... variations the meters don't respond to<br>
EG: valve sealing, compression, ring blow by all dismissed as
'noise' via the cross port in the manifold.</p>
<p>Just wondering... Q for the crowd at large.... does anyone still
use the little rods in the tops of their carbs for balancing?<br>
(usually little kits with a jet wrench and etc)</p>
<p>v/r<br>
</p>
<p>ptegler<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/16/2018 12:58 PM, DAVID MASSEY
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:1667dd08131-1ec3-2e80@webjas-vad149.srv.aolmail.net">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<font size="3" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="black">
<div> <font size="3">First off, let me say that if you don't
have a flow meter, using the hose/listening method works
well enough for our primitive engines. But the meter will
provide greater accuracy. Sure putting the airflow meter
effects the flow through the carb (a bit) but we are not
trying to get an absolute calibration. We want a relative
calibration and if both carbs behave the same with the flow
meter in place they are set the same. And that is the end
result desired.</font><br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div style="clear:both"><font size="4">Dave Massey</font><br>
<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: ptegler <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:ptegler@verizon.net";><ptegler@verizon.net></a><br>
To: dave1massey <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:dave1massey@cs.com";><dave1massey@cs.com></a>; trguy75
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:trguy75@gmail.com";><trguy75@gmail.com></a>; triumphs
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:triumphs@autox.team.net";><triumphs@autox.team.net></a><br>
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 11:27 am<br>
Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues<br>
<br>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_2_521494f6-2019-4a88-8cfa-6c3a2bf680f9">
<div class="aolReplacedBody">
<div
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:black;">
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:black;">agreed....
especially considering that no one stated the human
ear was 'better' than an instrument. BUT.....<br>
Take a look at any procedure for multiple carbs
(greater than two) Â EG: quads on a bike or 8/12 carbs
on a Ferrari. ...even three DCOEs on a Triumph 6<br>
NONE suggest a flow meter blocking the intake. On
most bike engines you use multiple water columns via
taps on the sides of the carbs specifically designed
to facilitate balancing. Compared to most LBC's none
have a balance port in the intake manifold so no
'cross contamination ' from air flow via another carb.
Block one of four bike carbs and the engine will slow
very noticeably.<br>
<br>
sure the 'premise' is you block both carbs (one at a
time) but neither is 'as is' when running. When you
place the meter over the carb throat you change the
depression and running position of the piston in the
throat. Air volume vs velocity is changed...effecting
the carb operations, both air AND fuel. when you slow
down the air velocity it doesn't pull as much fuel,
and starts consuming air from the other carb via the
balance port in the manifold etc etc. <br>
<br>
You need to use whatever method best suites your
sensibilities. As too the repercussions of you
procedures. Each case is different, each case has
different expediencies, habits and results  :-)<br>
<br>
ptegler<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: DAVID MASSEY <<a
removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:dave1massey@cs.com";
moz-do-not-send="true">dave1massey@cs.com</a>><br>
To: ptegler <<a
removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:ptegler@verizon.net";
moz-do-not-send="true">ptegler@verizon.net</a>>;
trguy75 <<a
removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:trguy75@gmail.com";
moz-do-not-send="true">trguy75@gmail.com</a>>;
triumphs <<a
removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:triumphs@autox.team.net";
moz-do-not-send="true">triumphs@autox.team.net</a>><br>
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 7:34 am<br>
Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues<br>
<br>
</div>
<div id="aolmail_yiv6500343243">
<div><span style="color: black; font-family:
Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: medium;">
</span>
<div> <br clear="none">
</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,
helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black;">
<blockquote style="border-left:2px solid
blue;padding-left:3px;">
<div>Seriously though.... what method didyou use
to balance the air flow at idle? One of those
little flow meters?<br clear="none">
NOPE NADA STOP right there.  Think about
it...you're sealing off the air to get the
bubble to rise so of course the idle
changes....so the balance tube in the manifold
sucks from the other carb, bypassing the fuel
pull.</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div> <br clear="none">
</div>
<div> <span style="font-size: medium;">What are you
talking about? Sure you affect airflow with the
airflow meter but you are affecting both carbs
equally when you switch from carb to carb. If
you get the same reading from both they are
being effected the same and have the same
starting point. The concept that the human ear
is better than an instrument specifically
designed to measure airflow is pure hubris.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: medium;"><br
clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: medium;">One thing to
watch out for is assuming that since the carbs
are balanced at idle they are balanced under
throttle. Be very careful when tightening down
the linkage to ensure that both carbs open
simultaneously. This is particularly important
on the TR6-style linkage that has built-in
disengagement zones.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: medium;"><br
clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: medium;"></span><br
clear="none">
</div>
<div style="clear:both;"><span style="font-size:
large;">Dave Massey</span><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</div>
<div> <br clear="none">
</div>
<div> <br clear="none">
</div>
<div class="aolmail_yiv6500343243yqt2701170847"
id="aolmail_yiv6500343243yqt08724">
<div style="font-family:arial,
helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black;">-----Original
Message-----<br clear="none">
From: Paul Tegler <<a
removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:ptegler@verizon.net";
moz-do-not-send="true">ptegler@verizon.net</a>><br
clear="none">
To: Jim Henningsen <<a
removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:trguy75@gmail.com";
moz-do-not-send="true">trguy75@gmail.com</a>>;
triumphs <<a
removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:triumphs@autox.team.net";
moz-do-not-send="true">triumphs@autox.team.net</a>><br
clear="none">
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 3:16 am<br clear="none">
Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues<br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<div
id="aolmail_yiv6500343243AOLMsgPart_1.2_b3d72249-8701-4264-8a12-6cac1217176c">
<div
class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolReplacedBody">
<div>ok....what do you mean by 'carbs aren't
running smoothly'Â ?</div>
<div>Engine is not smooth?.. sputtering?Â
not running smooth while cruising?</div>
<div>An old adage.... (well two actually)<br
clear="none">
"..most carb problems are electrical..."Â
and "..most ignition problems are the
carbs"</div>
<div>Seriously though.... what method didyou
use to balance the air flow at idle? One
of those little flow meters?<br
clear="none">
NOPE NADA STOP right there.  Think about
it...you're sealing off the air to get the
bubble to rise so of course the idle
changes....so the balance tube in the
manifold sucks from the other carb,
bypassing the fuel pull.</div>
<div>I was finally convinced by an old
mechanic and have learned from tuning more
SU and ZS carbs than I care to mention....
use a 1/4" fuel line as a stethoscope
...one end in your ear..the other just up
against the edge (not in) the carb throat.
blocks minimal air... and believe me you
can hear as little 1-2 cfm readily, but
you can also hear the gurgle of the fuel
flow!  Years ago I actually gave away my
flow gauges.</div>
<div>Eons ago..I got so fed up once I bought
brand new NOS SU carbs to replace mine
after three rebuilds of the orig units.
BUT...STILL had the same issue...smooth
speed cruising and it ran like crap. Pull
the choke out and it ran fine, but had to
push it in at closed or low speed
throttle. Spent a year+ and hundreds of
messages on various LBC lists....still to
no avail. Than one day at a car show....
I saw a guy with an identical setup....
open big round K&Ns and a end plate
but had his air filters nearly 3/4 closed
off with duct tape. In the end, the
problem was incorrect vacuum effects
...not enough air velocity when the piston
was mid/down as there was no restriction
from the air filters.</div>
<div>hhmmm.... ok...<br clear="none">
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.teglerizer.com/mgstuff/a_stumble_at_cruise.htm</a><br>
</div>
<div><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
moz-do-not-send="true"><br clear="none">
</a><br>
</div>
<div><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
moz-do-not-send="true">ptegler</a><br
clear="none">
</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<br clear="none">
<div
class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-cite-prefix">On
10/15/2018 7:40 PM, Jim Henningsen wrote:<br
clear="none">
</div>
<blockquote>
<pre>Ok, I thought I had this rebuild all nailed
down. Finally got around to
getting carbs balanced and set for correct mixture. After new kits, testing
piston drop timing per John Twist you tube clip (great clip), and spending
two hours fine tuning air flow and mixture. The carbs aren't running
smoothly. There is something not right and I am throwing in the towel.
Don't have a reliable mechanic that I trust for this in Ocala. Any
recommendations on a rebuilder to send these two to have them checked
professionally.
Joe Curto?
Jeff Payla at Paltech - cant seem to get a response from him.
Buy new (ouch)
Others?
Thanks in advance
Jim Henningsen
Ocala FL
61 TR3A eager to enjoy driving it in fall in Florida
62 TR4 eager to have restoration finished
75 TR6 eager to have new race motor put in
82 Jeep ld reliable - get in and go
2002 Triumph Trophy 1200 eager to just get out and be used.
** <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
moz-do-not-send="true">triumphs@autox.team.net</a> **
Archive: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-txt-link-freetext"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs</a> <a
rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-txt-link-freetext"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.team.net/archive</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br clear="none">
<pre
class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-signature">--
Paul Tegler
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
moz-do-not-send="true">ptegler@verizon.net</a> <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.teglerizer.com</a>
</pre>
</div>
</div>
<br clear="none">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</font>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Paul Tegler
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:ptegler@verizon.net";>ptegler@verizon.net</a> <a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.teglerizer.com";>www.teglerizer.com</a></pre>
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Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs http://www.team.net/archive
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