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Around here, 93 octane cost $1 more a gallon than regular (87 octane).
Bob Haskell
Austin-Healey 3000 roadster registrar
On 9/2/24 15:19, Bob Spidell via Healeys wrote:
> CORRECTION: Hank is correct in that ethanol isn't necessarily used to
> boost octane in pump gas--my assumption was incorrect--it's only added
> because of the federal mandate. It can raise octane, though the effect
> is probably minimal (the Penn State article didn't give the blend
> ratio, but 102 over 100 isn't much regardless). You can refine
> 100-octane gas from crude, but it would probably cost $10/gallon or
> more; and running E85 allows compression ratios to be raised for
> better efficiency and performance. That's why TEL was developed: to
> cheaply increase fuel detonation resistance while simultaneously
> poisoning every living thing on the planet.
>
> In digging further, I came across this, which pretty much acknowledges
> what a lot of us suspected: ethanol in gas causes vapor lock, and not
> just in our Healeys. Also surprising to me, as ethanol has a lower
> vapor pressure than gasoline--I'd assumed the opposite--but blending
> them increases vapor pressure.
>
> "... Gasoline vapor lock causes engines to stall, mostly when the car
> is in traffic and temperature is rising high. Similarly when a car is
> parked for a short period of time the heated motor won´t start. The
> higher the temperature, the higher the altitude, the more likely it is
> that Gasoline vapors build a vapor lock, preventing the fuel in the
> line from moving to the engine."
>
> https://www.grabner-instruments.com/-/media/ametekgrabnerinstruments/files/pdfs/application--vapor-pressure--vl-ratio-of-gasolineethanol-blends.pdf?la=en&revision=00f78dc8-029e-4481-ba85-e640bdc7e338
>
> Note there is some effort to change all gas to 93-octane only, which
> would accommodate all engines and simplify the refining and delivery
> process. We can hope, I guess.
>
> Bob
>
>
> On 9/2/2024 10:32 AM, Bob Spidell via Healeys wrote:
>> "Ethanol boosts the octane number of fuel, which helps prevent
>> pre-ignition knock. Incidentally, the octane rating system for fuels
>> was originally developed by Penn State chemist Russell Marker in the
>> 1920s. The octane rating (Anti-Knock Index, AKI) of normal unleaded
>> gasoline in the United States is 87. The octane rating of pure
>> ethanol is 100. What's interesting is that when ethanol is blended
>> with gasoline, it performs as if its octane rating is 112, making
>> ethanol a very effective octane booster when used in gasoline. High
>> octane is one reason why NASCAR uses ethanol for their
>> high-compression racing engines. Engines that are designed and
>> optimized for ethanol fuel have the potential to run at higher
>> efficiencies than engines designed for and using gasoline."
>>
>> https://extension.psu.edu/fuel-ethanol-hero-or-villain
>>
>> On 9/2/2024 10:19 AM, Hank Leach wrote:
>>> Ethanol will not raise the octane level of fuel-only the "tanes"
>>> shown on the chart affect boost and the higher the tane the more
>>> expensive the fuel.
>>> If you procure fuel from an airport spout for road use there is a
>>> hefty fine (about $50K I think) and maybe jail time, so they won't
>>> sell you any. If clear gas (no eth) is not available you are stuck
>>> with ethanol. Hank
>>>
>>> --------------------
>>>
>>> From: "Bob Spidell via Healeys" <healeys@autox.team.net>
>>> Reply-To: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell@comcast.net>
>>> To: <healeys@autox.team.net>
>>> Sent: September 2, 2024 at 10:02 AM PDT
>>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] gas/alcohol
>>> Living in California, I have been running 'gasahol' in all my cars
>>> longer than some. Best we can usually get is 91-octane; I was able
>>> to buy higher-octane--93 and 100--fuel at times but, guess what: the
>>> octane was boosted with ethanol (added water to some and measured
>>> before and after; don't recall the exact mix but IIRC I figured it
>>> was 10% ethanol; standard from the pump seems to be about 8%).
>>>
>>> I have about 140K miles on my BJ8 running mostly 91-octane gasahol,
>>> and there have been no negative effects save some 'vapor lock*' on
>>> starting when hot. I replaced the hard line to carburettor flex line
>>> that had been on the car for a couple decades and, except for it
>>> being a little stiff there was no visible degradation. About 8 years
>>> ago I put a new carb jet in pure/denatured ethanol and there is also
>>> no visible degradation. Rubber components sold since the
>>> introduction of gasahol are impervious to the stuff. Theoretically,
>>> due to its oxygen content gasahol could cause an engine to run a
>>> little lean, and at least one knowledgeable person recommends
>>> changing to rich carb needles, but both my cars have long since been
>>> tuned to run on it with std. needles. The BJ8 was rebuilt to
>>> standard 9.1:1 compression ratio, the BN2 is a 100M and has the
>>> 'high compression' 8.7:1 pistons. I've been told Healeys will run
>>> fine on 91 up to about 11:1 compression, depending on the cam and
>>> timing.
>>>
>>> Good luck trying to 'steal' from an airport--when I owned airplanes
>>> I would occasionally get some--but the fuel providers aren't likely
>>> to be enthusiastic about selling it to you. Technically, you would
>>> owe 'road tax,' and the stuff is full of TEL and highly toxic (don't
>>> breathe any of it and don't let it get on your skin).
>>>
>>> * not technically 'vapor lock,' but the alcohol vaporizes and
>>> cavitates the fuel next to the exhaust manifold, causing some
>>> stumbling for a mile or so.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>> On 9/2/2024 7:45 AM, carl and gerry rubino via Healeys wrote:
>>>
>>> A message from Canada. For the last 30 years I have been running
>>> my 100/6 on 93 gas with no alcohol.
>>> In its infinite wisdom our government is going to legislate
>>> alcohol in all grades of gas.
>>> Other than stealing gas from an airport any recommendations to
>>> deal with this?
>>>
>>
>>
>
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<p>Around here, 93 octane cost $1 more a gallon than regular (87
octane).<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Bob Haskell
Austin-Healey 3000 roadster registrar</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/2/24 15:19, Bob Spidell via
Healeys wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:8648a487-f79d-449f-b2ee-7a0d38d99206@comcast.net">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
CORRECTION: Hank is correct in that ethanol isn't necessarily used
to boost octane in pump gas--my assumption was incorrect--it's
only added because of the federal mandate. It can raise octane,
though the effect is probably minimal (the Penn State article
didn't give the blend ratio, but 102 over 100 isn't much
regardless). You can refine 100-octane gas from crude, but it
would probably cost $10/gallon or more; and running E85 allows
compression ratios to be raised for better efficiency and
performance. That's why TEL was developed: to cheaply increase
fuel detonation resistance while simultaneously poisoning every
living thing on the planet.<br>
<br>
In digging further, I came across this, which pretty much
acknowledges what a lot of us suspected: ethanol in gas causes
vapor lock, and not just in our Healeys. Also surprising to me, as
ethanol has a lower vapor pressure than gasoline--I'd assumed the
opposite--but blending them increases vapor pressure.<br>
<br>
"... Gasoline vapor lock causes engines to stall, mostly when the
car is in traffic and temperature is rising high. Similarly when a
car is parked for a short period of time the heated motor won´t
start. The higher the temperature, the higher the altitude, the
more likely it is that Gasoline vapors build a vapor lock,
preventing the fuel in the line from moving to the engine."<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.grabner-instruments.com/-/media/ametekgrabnerinstruments/files/pdfs/application--vapor-pressure--vl-ratio-of-gasolineethanol-blends.pdf?la=en&revision=00f78dc8-029e-4481-ba85-e640bdc7e338";
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.grabner-instruments.com/-/media/ametekgrabnerinstruments/files/pdfs/application--vapor-pressure--vl-ratio-of-gasolineethanol-blends.pdf?la=en&revision=00f78dc8-029e-4481-ba85-e640bdc7e338</a><br>
<br>
Note there is some effort to change all gas to 93-octane only,
which would accommodate all engines and simplify the refining and
delivery process. We can hope, I guess.<br>
<br>
Bob<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/2/2024 10:32 AM, Bob Spidell via
Healeys wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:9b1b9045-3efa-4ed4-a300-6c39167abad9@comcast.net">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
"Ethanol boosts the octane number of fuel, which helps prevent
pre-ignition knock. Incidentally, the octane rating system for
fuels was originally developed by Penn State chemist Russell
Marker in the 1920s. The octane rating (Anti-Knock Index, AKI)
of normal unleaded gasoline in the United States is 87. The
octane rating of pure ethanol is 100. What's interesting is that
when ethanol is blended with gasoline, it performs as if its
octane rating is 112, making ethanol a very effective octane
booster when used in gasoline. High octane is one reason why
NASCAR uses ethanol for their high-compression racing engines.
Engines that are designed and optimized for ethanol fuel have
the potential to run at higher efficiencies than engines
designed for and using gasoline."<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://extension.psu.edu/fuel-ethanol-hero-or-villain";
moz-do-not-send="true">https://extension.psu.edu/fuel-ethanol-hero-or-villain</a><br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/2/2024 10:19 AM, Hank Leach
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:45f8343f-8584-9915-1bea-9b5fb0c78ce3@charter.net">
<meta http-equiv="content-type"
content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div>Ethanol will not raise the octane level of fuel-only the
"tanes" shown on the chart affect boost and the higher the
tane the more expensive the fuel.</div>
<div>If you procure fuel from an airport spout for road use
there is a hefty fine (about $50K I think) and maybe jail
time, so they won't sell you any. If clear gas (no eth) is
not available you are stuck with ethanol. Hank</div>
<div><br>
-------------------- <br>
<br>
From: "Bob Spidell via Healeys" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:healeys@autox.team.net";
moz-do-not-send="true"><healeys@autox.team.net></a>
<br>
Reply-To: "Bob Spidell" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:bspidell@comcast.net";
moz-do-not-send="true"><bspidell@comcast.net></a>
<br>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:healeys@autox.team.net";
moz-do-not-send="true"><healeys@autox.team.net></a>
<br>
Sent: September 2, 2024 at 10:02 AM PDT <br>
Subject: Re: [Healeys] gas/alcohol <br>
Living in California, I have been running 'gasahol' in all
my cars longer than some. Best we can usually get is
91-octane; I was able to buy higher-octane--93 and 100--fuel
at times but, guess what: the octane was boosted with
ethanol (added water to some and measured before and after;
don't recall the exact mix but IIRC I figured it was 10%
ethanol; standard from the pump seems to be about 8%).<br>
<br>
I have about 140K miles on my BJ8 running mostly 91-octane
gasahol, and there have been no negative effects save some
'vapor lock*' on starting when hot. I replaced the hard line
to carburettor flex line that had been on the car for a
couple decades and, except for it being a little stiff there
was no visible degradation. About 8 years ago I put a new
carb jet in pure/denatured ethanol and there is also no
visible degradation. Rubber components sold since the
introduction of gasahol are impervious to the stuff.
Theoretically, due to its oxygen content gasahol could cause
an engine to run a little lean, and at least one
knowledgeable person recommends changing to rich carb
needles, but both my cars have long since been tuned to run
on it with std. needles. The BJ8 was rebuilt to standard
9.1:1 compression ratio, the BN2 is a 100M and has the 'high
compression' 8.7:1 pistons. I've been told Healeys will run
fine on 91 up to about 11:1 compression, depending on the
cam and timing. <br>
<br>
Good luck trying to 'steal' from an airport--when I owned
airplanes I would occasionally get some--but the fuel
providers aren't likely to be enthusiastic about selling it
to you. Technically, you would owe 'road tax,' and the stuff
is full of TEL and highly toxic (don't breathe any of it and
don't let it get on your skin). <br>
<br>
* not technically 'vapor lock,' but the alcohol vaporizes
and cavitates the fuel next to the exhaust manifold, causing
some stumbling for a mile or so.<br>
<br>
Bob<br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/2/2024 7:45 AM, carl and
gerry rubino via Healeys wrote:</div>
<blockquote>A message from Canada. For the last 30 years I
have been running my 100/6 on 93 gas with no alcohol.
<div>In its infinite wisdom our government is going to
legislate alcohol in all grades of gas.</div>
<div>Other than stealing gas from an airport any
recommendations to deal with this?</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Â </div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre"
wrap="">_______________________________________________
Archive: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys";>http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys";>http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:Healeys@autox.team.net";>Healeys@autox.team.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys";>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys</a>
</pre>
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