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Re: [Healeys] Coolant bypass port in the head - 6-cyl

To: Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Coolant bypass port in the head - 6-cyl
From: Alan Seigrist via Healeys <healeys@autox.team.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 10:42:50 +0800
Cc: Healey list <healeys@autox.team.net>
Delivered-to: mharc@autox.team.net
Delivered-to: healeys@autox.team.net
References: <CAFBXTk+A1iNWq5ASG_roL-+Jcu-Y94SLmwsYbKckX+_+dYygyA@mail.gmail.com> <CAB3i7LK7w28-1SBxdoAQRvydEu3xDjDQqN2qbuuUe2WswjH_WQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAFKLAdiZYQsa2_-tMwfbpObzc89BmDzm=N8_1QYM-X9xk3Zniw@mail.gmail.com> <CAB3i7LLpLXX4k8a0FiGUfNQ515oZ7dw8jy=+ksCc4_9mASAidQ@mail.gmail.com> <E21C6921-4FDA-467B-BD31-C49068C70C45@hxcore.ol> <CAFBXTkJ=b+zOYKGSdnLM9qm7ac=kCj=7OY9NvsYGED9_rn4ckg@mail.gmail.com> <cb239813-a435-6820-b112-87495a039cbf@comcast.net> <CAFBXTkLPi991vRbE8hh0km8XpX1dUQvhiCFyEa_xMguMoRY-sw@mail.gmail.com> <d3668a5b-75a1-1045-f0dc-e99bcda47c76@comcast.net>
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Bob -

One thing it might be is stop leak.  Stop leak can plug up a system if
there's air in there somewhere, and stop leak will form clumps if you don't
drive the car every day.  Using stop leak is fine, but you have to flush
the system out thoroughly after the stop leak has plugged the holes in your
system.

Best,

Alan

On Wed, Mar 30, 2022 at 10:10 AM Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.net> wrote:

> It's been years, and my memory is (always) suspect, but I believe I put a
> RS in a pan of boiling water (with a frog, of course). The conical top of
> the RS goes up in the thermostat housing, so I think the moving part can
> only go down. IIRC, the sleeve only moved a quarter-inch or so and I
> thought at the time it would only cover maybe half of the bypass port.
>
> I mostly came to the conclusion Michael did: Covering the port or not
> makes no measurable difference; it's certainly not a cure for overheating
> Healeys.
>
> On another note; I drained my BJ8 to install another heater valve and
> block valve and, when filling noticed some crud blocking a couple tubes. =
It
> was hard to extract, but when I did it appeared to be solder that had com=
e
> off from somewher (by the shape probably from around a tube). Rad's not
> leaking, but I'm not a happy camper; this was an 'uprated' core installed
> less than 6 or 7 years ago.
>
>
> On 3/29/2022 7:00 PM, Alan Seigrist wrote:
>
> Hi Bob -
>
> the Robertshaw thermostats are nicely made, but they open the wrong way
> around... let me do some measurements as I am dealing with the cooling on
> my BJ8 now.  I have a robert shaw... as well as another sleeved thermosta=
t
> as well as the bellows.
>
> Best,
>
> Alan
>
> On Wed, Mar 30, 2022 at 9:54 AM Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Years ago, someone--might have been BCS, but I'm not sure--was selling a
>> Robertshaw thermostat with a brass sleeve soldered to it (Robertshaw
>> thermostats have a center portion that moves up and down). The one I bou=
ght
>> was 160deg; I desoldered the sleeve and soldered it to a 180deg Robertsh=
aw.
>> I bought one of the original, bellows-type from Kees--whatever happened =
to
>> him?--but never installed it; heard they were the 'fail closed' type, wh=
ich
>> could turn a minor failure into a catastrophe (still have it around
>> somewhere).
>>
>>
>> https://flowkoolerwaterpumps.com/products/robertshaw-330-160-degree-ther=
mostat
>>
>>
>> On 3/29/2022 6:35 PM, Alan Seigrist via Healeys wrote:
>>
>> Harold -
>>
>> Thank you, now I understand how the whole thing is supposed to work.  Th=
e
>> sleeve works to cut off the bypass so that hot water is not recycled int=
o
>> the system after it warms up.  FWIW, this only applies to the 6 cyl, the=
 4
>> cyl doesn't have any sort of bypass.
>>
>> Yes, I think it would be great if you could share with us which
>> thermostat to purchase and how to modify it.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Alan
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 30, 2022 at 1:28 AM Harold Manifold via Healeys <
>> healeys@autox.team.net> wrote:
>>
>>> The coolant bypass plays an important but problematic role in the
>>> Healey=E2=80=99s cooling system. When the thermostat is closed coolant =
returns to
>>> the water pump via the bypass. See the red circle on the attached pictu=
re.
>>> The bypass is important for three reasons: its allows the coolant in th=
e
>>> block to continue to circulate and come to a uniform temperature before=
 the
>>> thermostat opens, it prevents hot spots that could develop from stagnan=
t
>>> coolant and it prevents the water pump from dead heading.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The problematic part is in the original design the bypass was closed by
>>> a sleeve on the bellows type thermostat when the thermostat opened. The
>>> original Bellows type thermostat used a volatile liquid and were not
>>> reliable and were not suitable for the 7 psi cooling system pressure. W=
ax
>>> type thermostats are much more reliable but they do not have a sleeve t=
o
>>> close off the bypass. There may be some expensive wax type replicas of =
the
>>> original bellows type.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> After looking at many options the best option for a reasonably priced
>>> wax type thermostat with a sleeve to close off the bay pass is the modi=
fied
>>> Land Rover Series ll thermostat. If anyone would like to know about
>>> modifying the Landver thermostat let me know. It can be easily done.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Harold
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *Michael Salter via Healeys <healeys@autox.team.net>
>>> *Sent: *Tuesday, March 29, 2022 9:17 AM
>>> *To: *Healey list <Healeys@autox.team.net>
>>> *Subject: *Re: [Healeys] Coolant bypass port in the head - 6-cyl
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The coolant travels from the bottom of the radiator to the water pump
>>> into the block then from the block into the head then through the
>>> thermostat to the top of the radiator.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> M
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue., Mar. 29, 2022, 11:57 a.m. Elton S, <eps2660@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> As a related question, what is the direction of flow through the
>>> radiator - up from the bottom or down from the top?
>>>
>>> Elton
>>>
>>> BJ7
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 11:44 AM Michael Salter <michaelsalter@gmail.co=
m>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> As Gary points out, and far as I have been able to figure out, the
>>> bypass passage is open when the engine is cold, the idea being that by
>>> "short circuiting" the radiator the coolant in the heater and bypass
>>> passage will warm up more quickly and the heater will produce heat more
>>> quickly.
>>>
>>> We had a slew of the "shrouded " type thermostats that I bought when
>>> Smiths Canada closed down. The part number was 43570/28 and we used to =
sell
>>> them to customers who reported overheating problems.
>>>
>>> I stopped promoting them as a potential solution to overheating issues
>>> after being taken to task by a customer who did an extensive study of t=
he
>>> issue and proved, at least to my satisfaction,  that they improved cool=
ing
>>> not one iota.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> M
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue., Mar. 29, 2022, 10:47 a.m. Alan Seigrist, <healey.nut@gmail.com=
>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't know if this has ever been answered before, but where does the
>>> little bypass port begin?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What parts of the head does that bypass come in contact with?
>>>
>>> When do you want to cover the port with a sleeve (when coolant is hot o=
r
>>> cold?)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I ask because the old bellows style thermostat will cover the bypass
>>> port when the thermostat opens
>>>
>>> then I have another wax thermostat and the sleeve actually cover the
>>> bypass when it is cold, and doesn't cover it when the thermostat opens.=
...
>>> so it works exact opposite to the old bellows style thermostat.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> confused....
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
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>>>
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>>>
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>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>>
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>>> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
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>>>
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>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys http://autox.team.net/arc=
hive/healeys
>> Healeys@autox.team.nethttp://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/bspide=
ll@comcast.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>>
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>>
>> Healeys@autox.team.net
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/healey.nut@gmail.com
>>
>>
>

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Bob -<div><br></div><div>One thing it might be is stop lea=
k.=C2=A0 Stop leak can plug up a system if there&#39;s air in there somewhe=
re, and stop leak will form clumps if you don&#39;t drive the car every day=
.=C2=A0 Using stop leak is fine, but you have to flush the system out thoro=
ughly after the stop leak has plugged the holes in your system.<div><br></d=
iv><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Alan</div></div></div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 30, 2022=
 at 10:10 AM Bob Spidell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bspidell@comcast.net";>bspide=
ll@comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padd=
ing-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div>
    It&#39;s been years, and my memory is (always) suspect, but I believe I
    put a RS in a pan of boiling water (with a frog, of course). The
    conical top of the RS goes up in the thermostat housing, so I think
    the moving part can only go down. IIRC, the sleeve only moved a
    quarter-inch or so and I thought at the time it would only cover
    maybe half of the bypass port.<br>
    <br>
    I mostly came to the conclusion Michael did: Covering the port or
    not makes no measurable difference; it&#39;s certainly not a cure for
    overheating Healeys.<br>
    <br>
    On another note; I drained my BJ8 to install another heater valve
    and block valve and, when filling noticed some crud blocking a
    couple tubes. It was hard to extract, but when I did it appeared to
    be solder that had come off from somewher (by the shape probably
    from around a tube). Rad&#39;s not leaking, but I&#39;m not a happy cam=
per;
    this was an &#39;uprated&#39; core installed less than 6 or 7 years ago=
.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div>On 3/29/2022 7:00 PM, Alan Seigrist
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
     =20
      <div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Bob -
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>the Robertshaw thermostats are nicely made, but they open
          the wrong way around... let me do some measurements as I am
          dealing with the cooling on my BJ8 now.=C2=A0 I have a robert
          shaw... as well as another sleeved thermostat as well as the
          bellows.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Best,</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Alan</div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <div class=3D"gmail_quote">
        <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 30, 2022 at 9:54
          AM Bob Spidell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bspidell@comcast.net"; target=
=3D"_blank">bspidell@comcast.net</a>&gt;
          wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
          <div> Years ago, someone--might have been BCS, but I&#39;m not
            sure--was selling a Robertshaw thermostat with a brass
            sleeve soldered to it (Robertshaw thermostats have a center
            portion that moves up and down). The one I bought was
            160deg; I desoldered the sleeve and soldered it to a 180deg
            Robertshaw. I bought one of the original, bellows-type from
            Kees--whatever happened to him?--but never installed it;
            heard they were the &#39;fail closed&#39; type, which could tur=
n a
            minor failure into a catastrophe (still have it around
            somewhere).<br>
            <br>
            <a href=3D"https://flowkoolerwaterpumps.com/products/robertshaw=
-330-160-degree-thermostat" target=3D"_blank">https://flowkoolerwaterpumps.=
com/products/robertshaw-330-160-degree-thermostat</a><br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <div>On 3/29/2022 6:35 PM, Alan Seigrist via Healeys wrote:<br>
            </div>
            <blockquote type=3D"cite">
              <div dir=3D"ltr">Harold -
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>Thank you, now I understand how the whole thing is
                  supposed to work.=C2=A0 The sleeve works to cut off the
                  bypass so that hot water is not recycled into the
                  system after it warms up.=C2=A0 FWIW, this only applies t=
o
                  the 6 cyl, the 4 cyl doesn&#39;t have any sort of bypass.=
<br>
                  <br>
                  Yes, I think it would be great if you could share with
                  us which thermostat to purchase and how to modify it.</di=
v>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>Best,</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>Alan</div>
              </div>
              <br>
              <div class=3D"gmail_quote">
                <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 30, 2022
                  at 1:28 AM Harold Manifold via Healeys &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:healeys@autox.team.net" target=3D"_blank">healeys@autox.team.net</a>&gt=
;
                  wrote:<br>
                </div>
                <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                  <div lang=3D"EN-US">
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">The coolant bypass plays an
                        important but problematic role in the Healey=E2=80=
=99s
                        cooling system. When the thermostat is closed
                        coolant returns to the water pump via the
                        bypass. See the red circle on the attached
                        picture. The bypass is important for three
                        reasons: its allows the coolant in the block to
                        continue to circulate and come to a uniform
                        temperature before the thermostat opens, it
                        prevents hot spots that could develop from
                        stagnant coolant and it prevents the water pump
                        from dead heading.</p>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">The problematic part is in
                        the original design the bypass was closed by a
                        sleeve on the bellows type thermostat when the
                        thermostat opened. The original Bellows type
                        thermostat used a volatile liquid and were not
                        reliable and were not suitable for the 7 psi
                        cooling system pressure. Wax type thermostats
                        are much more reliable but they do not have a
                        sleeve to close off the bypass. There may be
                        some expensive wax type replicas of the original
                        bellows type.</p>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">After looking at many options
                        the best option for a reasonably priced wax type
                        thermostat with a sleeve to close off the bay
                        pass is the modified Land Rover Series ll
                        thermostat. If anyone would like to know about
                        modifying the Landver thermostat let me know. It
                        can be easily done.</p>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Harold</p>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                      <div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;bo=
rder-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding=
:0in"><b>From: </b><a href=3D"mailto:healeys@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_bla=
nk">Michael
                            Salter via Healeys</a><br>
                          <b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, March 29, 2022 9:17 AM<br>
                          <b>To: </b><a href=3D"mailto:Healeys@autox.team.n=
et" target=3D"_blank">Healey
                            list</a><br>
                          <b>Subject: </b>Re: [Healeys] Coolant bypass
                          port in the head - 6-cyl</p>
                      </div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                      <div>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal">The coolant travels from
                          the bottom of the radiator to the water pump
                          into the block then from the block into the
                          head then through the thermostat to the top of
                          the radiator.</p>
                        <div>
                          <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class=3D"MsoNormal">M</p>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue., Mar. 29, 2022,
                            11:57 a.m. Elton S, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eps26=
60@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">eps2660@gmail.com</a>&gt;
                            wrote:</p>
                        </div>
                        <blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:n=
one;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0=
in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
                          <div>
                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">As a related question,
                              what is the direction of flow through the
                              radiator - up from the bottom or down from
                              the top?</p>
                            <div>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Elton=C2=A0=C2=A0</p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">BJ7</p>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Mar 29, 2022
                                at 11:44 AM Michael Salter &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:michaelsalter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">michaelsalter@gmail.com</a=
>&gt;
                                wrote:</p>
                            </div>
                            <blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-rig=
ht:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0=
in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
                              <div>
                                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">As Gary points out,
                                  and far as I have been able to figure
                                  out, the bypass passage is open when
                                  the engine is cold, the idea being
                                  that by &quot;short circuiting&quot; the
                                  radiator the coolant in the heater and
                                  bypass passage will warm up more
                                  quickly and the heater will produce
                                  heat more quickly.=C2=A0</p>
                                <div>
                                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal">We had a slew of
                                    the &quot;shrouded &quot; type thermost=
ats
                                    that I bought when Smiths Canada
                                    closed down. The part number was
                                    43570/28 and we used to sell them to
                                    customers who reported overheating
                                    problems.=C2=A0</p>
                                </div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal">I stopped
                                    promoting them as a potential
                                    solution to overheating issues after
                                    being taken to task by a customer
                                    who did an extensive study of the
                                    issue and proved, at least to my
                                    satisfaction,=C2=A0 that they improved
                                    cooling not one iota.</p>
                                </div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                                </div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal">M</p>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue., Mar. 29,
                                    2022, 10:47 a.m. Alan Seigrist, &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:healey.nut@gmail.com"; target=3D"_blank">healey.nut@gmail.com=
</a>&gt;
                                    wrote:</p>
                                </div>
                                <blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border=
-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);paddi=
ng:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don&#39;t know=
 if
                                      this has ever been answered
                                      before, but where does the little
                                      bypass port begin?=C2=A0 =C2=A0</p>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">What parts of
                                        the head does that bypass come
                                        in contact with?=C2=A0<br>
                                        <br>
                                        When do you want to cover the
                                        port with a sleeve (when coolant
                                        is hot or cold?)</p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">I ask because
                                        the old bellows style thermostat
                                        will cover the bypass port when
                                        the thermostat opens<br>
                                        <br>
                                        then I have another wax
                                        thermostat and the sleeve
                                        actually cover the bypass when
                                        it is cold, and doesn&#39;t cover i=
t
                                        when the thermostat opens.... so
                                        it works exact opposite to the
                                        old bellows style thermostat.</p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">confused....<b=
r>
                                        <br>
                                        Cheers,</p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Alan</p>
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              <pre>_______________________________________________
nk">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a>

Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys"; target=3D"_blank=
">http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys</a> <a href=3D"http://autox.team.ne=
t/archive/healeys" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys<=
/a>

<a href=3D"mailto:Healeys@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank">Healeys@autox.t=
eam.net</a>
<a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys"; target=3D"_blank=
">http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys</a>

s/bspidell@comcast.net" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/mailman/opt=
ions/healeys/bspidell@comcast.net</a>

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_______________________________________________

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