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Sorry Bob - you=E2=80=99re still not gettin=E2=80=99 it.
The important bit is -
>> the weight of the car is carried on the spring and bottom wishbone.
That is why your jack under the pan lifts the car.
Then -=20
>> The wheel and stub axle is bearing upwards, LIFTING the car through the t=
op trunnion using the kingpin as a pull-rod to the bottom wishbone and sprin=
g.
If you wish to test this, remove a wheel and place a jack stand under the sp=
line hub to support the car. Now unwind the the top nut of the kingpin a fe=
w turns and observe the increasing gap at the bottom the kingpin. If you un=
do the nut all the way you will drop the car on the deck.
Alan - from my iPad
> On 6 Jan 2021, at 17:05, Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.net> wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF re: "The whole front end is sat on those two Oilite bronze thrus=
t washers."
>=20
> Nope. Proof: I have placed my cars on jackstands under the rear springs an=
d front trunnions and R&R'd their shock absorbers several times (Armstrong s=
hocks are a PITA, but that's a different rant). Risky? Maybe, but done right=
the risk is manageable. My BJ8 rode through a Richter 5+ earthquake in this=
state in San Jose a few years ago; obviously, a flat, rugged concrete surfa=
ce is required (note messing with massive springs under compression has risk=
s as well). My BN2 is now in this state while I wait for front shock rebuild=
s (though I have the jackstands backed-up by a QuickJack under the chassis).=
>=20
> Though there is a very specific gap called-for for the top trunnion, the o=
nly reason I can see is too small a gap might cause some binding--leading to=
even more steering effort--and too large could result in the shock and bush=
ing/bearing taking a beating.
>=20
>=20
> On 1/6/2021 7:39 AM, bluehealey@gmail.com wrote:
>> Hi Fred.
>> You are not the first person that I have encountered with this confusion.=
It is usually held by those that are very familiar with pre-war cars and be=
am axles. In those cars the steering/stub axle is captured between fixed top=
& bottom =E2=80=98ears=E2=80=99 on the end of the beam. The weight of the c=
ar bears down through the top ear onto the swivel axle. All fairly obvious.
>> In the case of our cars, with top and bottom wishbones, the weight of the=
car is carried on the spring and bottom wishbone. The wheel and stub axle i=
s bearing upwards, LIFTING the car through the top trunnion using the kingpi=
n as a pull-rod to the bottom wishbone and spring.
>> The whole front end is sat on those two Oilite bronze thrust washers. Any=
reduction in friction here pays dividends =E2=80=93 especially in a 6-cylin=
der car with even more weight over the wheels.
>> Maybe others can come up with a clearer explanation.
>> Cheers.
>> AlanB
>> <image001.png>
>> =20
>> From: Fred Wescoe <fredwescoe@gmail.com>=20
>> Sent: 06 January 2021 15:14
>> To: Bluehealey <bluehealey@gmail.com>
>> Cc: Team.net <lawrence.swift@gmail.com>; Ahealey help <healeys@autox.team=
.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] BN2 Caster Angle
>> =20
>> Listers,
>> =20
>> I have looked at these top trunnion bearing kits over the years and consi=
dered installing them. However, I simply cannot get my head wrapped around w=
hy replacing bearings at the top of the kingpin would reduce the weight of t=
he car and improve steering. It seems to me that all the weight of the car i=
s pressed against the bottom of the kingpin. To me, it seems replacing the t=
op bearing would have no effect on the steering effort. Can someone explain=
in simple language why this kit would work?
>> =20
>> Thanks, mystified,
>> =20
>> Fred
>> =20
>> 66 BJ8
>> =20
>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 9:49 AM Bluehealey <bluehealey@gmail.com> wrote:
>> These are the ones.
>> https://www.ahspares.co.uk/austin-healey/big-healey/suspension-front/top-=
trunnion-bearing-kit-pair.aspx
>> Well worth doing.
>> The other often overlooked source of heavy steering is the Steering Idler=
. It is rarely lubricated, has no real reservoir for oil, and a poor seal at=
the bottom. I suggest releasing the ball joints that connect to the drop ar=
m to check it for stiffness. Complete removal of the idler isn=E2=80=99t a d=
ifficult job and is the best way to clean and lubricate.
>> The caster is pretty good on these cars (the initial design was good). Ca=
mber could go from positive to negative to be more compatible with radial ty=
res. Also check and minimise toe-in. This has a radical impact on steering f=
eel when wrong (in either direction).
>> If after all that you still have problems, then go for the caster changes=
you have in mind and tell us about your findings. The Team may learn someth=
ing.
>> The only other aspect that seems to vary from car to car is bump steer. S=
ome can be horrible on fast bumpies and others are on rails. I=E2=80=99ve n=
ever seen a decent treatise on dealing with this on our Big Healeys.
>> Have fun.
>> Alan - from my iPad
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 6 Jan 2021, at 13:35, Team.net <lawrence.swift@gmail.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> =EF=BB=BFWhen I rebuilt the front end on my BT7, I had the trust bearings=
at the top of the kingpin replaced with bearings - made a huge difference i=
n the ease of steering.
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Jan 5, 2021, at 10:36 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.net> wrote:
>> =20
>> re: "The other two are factory fixed and too dangerous to play with or ma=
intain...even if Kilmartin makes the parts"
>> =20
>> How so?
>> =20
>> On 1/4/2021 9:40 PM, gradea1@charter.net wrote:
>> I'm with the philosophy "set the toe and let 'er blow" The 1/16-1/8" toe-=
in is most important for proper tire wear. The other two are factory fixed a=
nd too dangerous to play with or maintain...even if Kilmartin makes the part=
s. Hank
>> =20
>> =20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation $12.75
>> =20
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys http://autox.team.net/arch=
ive
>> =20
>> Healeys@autox.team.net
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>> =20
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/lawrenc=
e.swift@gmail.com
>> =20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation $12.75
>>=20
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys http://autox.team.net/arch=
ive
>>=20
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>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>=20
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ley@gmail.com
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation $12.75
>>=20
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys http://autox.team.net/arch=
ive
>>=20
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>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>=20
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coe@gmail.com
>>=20
>>=20
>> Virus-free. www.avast.com
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation $12.75
>>=20
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys http://autox.team.net/arch=
ive
>>=20
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l@comcast.net
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation $12.75
>=20
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys http://autox.team.net/archi=
ve
>=20
> Healeys@autox.team.net
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>=20
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/blueheal=
ey@gmail.com
>=20
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">Sorry Bob - you=E2=80=99re still not gettin=
=E2=80=99 it.<div>The important bit is -</div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:033d01d6e442$1e630a7=
0$5b291f50$@gmail.com"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">th=
e weight of the car is carried on the spring and bottom wishbone.</p></div><=
/blockquote></div></blockquote>That is why your jack under the pan lifts the=
car.</div><div>Then - <br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:033d01d6e442$1e630a70$5b291f50$@gmail.c=
om"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The wheel and stub ax=
le is bearing upwards, LIFTING the car through the top trunnion using the ki=
ngpin as a pull-rod to the bottom wishbone and spring.</p></div></blockquote=
></div></blockquote>If you wish to test this, remove a wheel and place a jac=
k stand under the spline hub to support the car. Now unwind the the to=
p nut of the kingpin a few turns and observe the increasing gap at the botto=
m the kingpin. If you undo the nut all the way you will drop the car o=
n the deck.</div><div><br><div dir=3D"ltr">Alan - from my iPad</div><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On 6 Jan 2021, at 17:05, Bob Spidell &=
lt;bspidell@comcast.net> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote typ=
e=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF
=20
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUTF-8"=
>
=20
=20
re: "<span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The whole front end is
sat on those two Oilite bronze thrust washers."<br>
<br>
Nope. Proof: I have placed my cars on jackstands under the rear
springs and front trunnions and R&R'd their shock absorbers
several times (Armstrong shocks are a PITA, but that's a different
rant). Risky? Maybe, but done right the risk is manageable. My BJ8
rode through a Richter 5+ earthquake in this state in San Jose a
few years ago; obviously, a flat, rugged concrete surface is
required (note messing with massive springs under compression has
risks as well). My BN2 is now in this state while I wait for front
shock rebuilds (though I have the jackstands backed-up by a
QuickJack under the chassis).<br>
<br>
Though there is a very specific gap called-for for the top
trunnion, the only reason I can see is too small a gap might cause
some binding--leading to even more steering effort--and too large
could result in the shock and bushing/bearing taking a beating.<br>
<br>
</span><br>
<div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 1/6/2021 7:39 AM,
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:bluehealey@gmail.=
com">bluehealey@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:033d01d6e442$1e630a70$5b291f50$@gm=
ail.com">
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUTF-=
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Hi=
Fred.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Yo=
u
are not the first person that I have encountered with this
confusion. It is usually held by those that are very
familiar with pre-war cars and beam axles. In those cars the
steering/stub axle is captured between fixed top &
bottom =E2=80=98ears=E2=80=99 on the end of the beam. The w=
eight of the car
bears down through the top ear onto the swivel axle. All
fairly obvious.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">In=
the case of our cars, with top and bottom wishbones, the
weight of the car is carried on the spring and bottom
wishbone. The wheel and stub axle is bearing upwards,
LIFTING the car through the top trunnion using the kingpin
as a pull-rod to the bottom wishbone and spring.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Th=
e
whole front end is sat on those two Oilite bronze thrust
washers. Any reduction in friction here pays dividends =E2=80=93=
especially in a 6-cylinder car with even more weight over
the wheels.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Ma=
ybe
others can come up with a clearer explanation.<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Ch=
eers.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Al=
anB<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><d=
iv><image001.png></div></span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-U=
S"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o=
:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US"> Fred Wescoe <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"ma=
ilto:fredwescoe@gmail.com"><fredwescoe@gmail.com></a> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> 06 January 2021 15:14<br>
<b>To:</b> Bluehealey <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D=
"mailto:bluehealey@gmail.com";><bluehealey@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Team.net <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D=
"mailto:lawrence.swift@gmail.com";><lawrence.swift@gmail.com></a>;
Ahealey help <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto=
:healeys@autox.team.net"><healeys@autox.team.net></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Healeys] BN2 Caster Angle<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Listers,<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have looked at these top trunnion
bearing kits over the years and considered installing
them. However, I simply cannot get my head wrapped aroun=
d
why replacing bearings at the top of the kingpin would
reduce the weight of the car and improve steering. It
seems to me that all the weight of the car is pressed
against the bottom of the kingpin. To me, it seems
replacing the top bearing would have no effect on the
steering effort. Can someone explain in simple language
why this kit would work?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks, mystified,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Fred<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">66 BJ8<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 9:49 AM
Bluehealey <<a href=3D"mailto:bluehealey@gmail.com"; moz-do-=
not-send=3D"true">bluehealey@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">These are the ones.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://www.ahspares.c=
o.uk/austin-healey/big-healey/suspension-front/top-trunnion-bearing-kit-pair=
.aspx" target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">https://www.ahspares.co.uk=
/austin-healey/big-healey/suspension-front/top-trunnion-bearing-kit-pair.asp=
x</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Well worth doing.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The other often overlooked
source of heavy steering is the Steering Idler. It
is rarely lubricated, has no real reservoir for
oil, and a poor seal at the bottom. I suggest
releasing the ball joints that connect to the drop
arm to check it for stiffness. Complete removal of
the idler isn=E2=80=99t a difficult job and is the bes=
t
way to clean and lubricate.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The caster is pretty good on
these cars (the initial design was good). Camber
could go from positive to negative to be more
compatible with radial tyres. Also check and
minimise toe-in. This has a radical impact on
steering feel when wrong (in either direction).<o:p></=
o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If after all that you still
have problems, then go for the caster changes you
have in mind and tell us about your findings. The
Team may learn something.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The only other aspect that
seems to vary from car to car is bump steer. Some
can be horrible on fast bumpies and others are on
rails. I=E2=80=99ve never seen a decent treatise=
on
dealing with this on our Big Healeys.<br>
Have fun.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Alan - from my iPad<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.=
0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt=
">On 6 Jan 2021, at
13:35, Team.net <<a href=3D"mailto:lawrence.swi=
ft@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">lawrence.swift@gmai=
l.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0p=
t">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=EF=BB=BFWhen I rebuilt the f=
ront
end on my BT7, I had the trust bearings at the
top of the kingpin replaced with bearings -
made a huge difference in the ease of
steering.<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Jan 5, 2021, at 10:36
AM, Bob Spidell <<a href=3D"mailto:bspidell@c=
omcast.net" target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">bspidell@comcast.net<=
/a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">re: "The other two are
factory fixed and too dangerous to play with
or maintain...even if Kilmartin makes the
parts"<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">How so?<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 1/4/2021 9:40 PM, <a hre=
f=3D"mailto:gradea1@charter.net"; target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">=
gradea1@charter.net</a>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt">
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-botto=
m:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I'm with the philosophy
"set the toe and let 'er blow" The
1/16-1/8" toe-in is most important for
proper tire wear. The other two are
factory fixed and too dangerous to play
with or maintain...even if Kilmartin makes
the parts. Hank<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt">
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-botto=
m:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:=
5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</blockquote>
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<fieldset class=3D"mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">_______________________________=
________________
net/donate.html">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a>
Archive: <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipe=
rmail/healeys">http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys</a> <a class=3D"moz-txt=
-link-freetext" href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive";>http://autox.team.net=
/archive</a>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:Healeys@autox.team.net"=
>Healeys@autox.team.net</a>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/lis=
tinfo/healeys">http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys</a>
team.net/mailman/options/healeys/bspidell@comcast.net">http://autox.team.net=
/mailman/options/healeys/bspidell@comcast.net</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
=20
<span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Suppor=
t Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html</span><br><span>Suggested annual d=
onation $12.75</span><br><span></span><br><span>Archive: http://www.te=
am.net/pipermail/healeys http://autox.team.net/archive</span><br><span></spa=
n><br><span>Healeys@autox.team.net</span><br><span>http://autox.team.net/mai=
lman/listinfo/healeys</span><br><span></span><br><span>Unsubscribe/Manage: h=
ttp://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/bluehealey@gmail.com</span><br>=
<span></span><br></div></blockquote></div></body></html>=
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_______________________________________________
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys http://autox.team.net/archive
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