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FWIW, I use copper anti-seize also.
----- Original Message -----
From: Max Byers <sbyers@ec.rr.com>
To: healeys@autox.team.net
Sent: Mon, 11 May 2020 06:39:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Part III Knock offs
Relative motion between two
metallic surfaces in contact under high load can result in fretting of the
surfaces and possible stress corrosion cracking. Lubrication is
necessary on the splines and conical surfaces of the wheel and hub to minim=
ize
fretting. I=E2=80=99ve used only grease to lubricate the wheel and hub sur=
faces for 36
years and I do not leave the wheels on for years without cleaning and
re-lubrication. Never had a wheel seize on the hub, and the splines show n=
o
signs of wear on the wheels or hubs after 80,000 miles =E2=80=93 except tha=
t there is
some slight evidence of fretting on the inboard conical surfaces. Steve By=
ersHBJ8L/36666BJ8 RegistryAHCA Delegate at LargeHavelock, NC USAFrom: Heal=
eys
[mailto:healeys-bounces@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Mirek Sharp
Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 7:36 PM
To: 'Perry'
Cc: healeys@autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Part III Knock offs Perhaps a little tangential to t=
he main
thread, and fully aware of the likelihood of me being accused of being peda=
ntic
(which never happens on this list J), but regarding what to use on splines =
to
stop the wheel seizing on, I have never understood why the recommendation i=
s
always for grease. Grease is designed to lubricate parts, whereas=20
the intent of applying it to the splines is to prevent them seizing on, not
reduce friction (i.e., lubricate). For that reason I have always used an
anti-seizing product, my favourite being Permatex Copper Anti-Seize Lubrica=
nt
(they call it a lubricant, but woe betide anyone who actually uses it to
lubricate). It should be used very sparingly, and I have never had an issue
with a wheel sizing on the splines. A very fine smear of grease on the
outside of the taper on the knock-off I agree is a good thing as the intent
there IS to lubricate. Also, providing it is used sparingly, I have never
had it seep out of the hub and onto the spokes, avoiding the (in my opinion=
)
terrible practice of smearing sillycone (mis-spell intended) over the spoke
heads inside the hub. Not to say grease does not work, it will, but why
not use a product designed for the purpose, and achieve clean spokes at the
same time? Cheers, MirekFrom: Healeys
[mailto:healeys-bounces@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of gradea1@charter.net
Sent: May-10-20 1:39 PM
To: 'Perry'
Cc: 'healeys@autox.team.net'
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Part III Knock offs Replacement parts-not NOS-what i=
f the
knockoff bottoms out on the spline face before it tightens to the cone of
the wire wheel? A combination of measured errors on replacement parts
could create this condition-front to back. The knockoffs were made to tight=
en,
but not be whaled upon. If properly applied each side they are self
tightening and I normally spin them on hand tight, hit them with the rawhid=
e
snug while still up in the air, and then wack them one more time on the gro=
und
with the copper side of Thor. One time in the early '70s I witnessed a
BMC "mechanic" whaling on a knockoff of the Healey, still hanging on
the lube rack, with a ten pound long handle sledge hammer! Flat ears? you
betcha. I would make sure that when mounted, the
front edge of the wheel is just forward of the inner depth of the knockoff =
so
that it actually contacts metal as it snugs it to the rear ring on the
hub. Also-grease-not
to much- but be sure splines, and ring of hub, and knockoff threads have a
light smear. I use HD wheel bearing grease so it doesn't seep out the
spoke nibs like moly or light grease would. Hank---------------------------=
--------------From:
"Perry via Healeys"=20
To: "rrengineer.mike@att.net"
Cc: "healeys@autox.team.net"
Sent: Sunday May 10 2020 9:01:21AM
Subject: Re: [Healeys] The Saturday Night Rant - Part III Knock offsMichael=
et al,Contemplate the mechanical connections
between the hub extension, wire wheel hub and the knockoff. The hub extensi=
on is bolted to the axle
using tapered nuts that seat in the face of the extension. No rotational
movement.The wire wheel is connected to the hub
extension via the splines. The tolerances in the splines may allow for some
rotational movement but they have to be loose enough to get the wheel off t=
he
extension. What else holds the wheel in place=E2=80=A6the
knockoff. The cone in the knock off forces the wire wheel hub against the h=
ub
extension, The contact interface is the tapers on the hub extension and the
wire wheel hub. You know the little area that we are frequently reminded to
apply a smear of grease to stop the little squeaky noise at low speed. If t=
he
knock off is tight enough there is not movement here either.So Mike, if you=
see movement between the
knock off and the wire wheel, the knock off is not tight enough. Suspect t=
hat the folks that developed knock
offs understood the problem of owners/mechanics not getting them tight enou=
gh
and used the handed (left and right) threads that self tighten. Gentlemen, =
remember your Mother today!Perry Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Michae=
l MacLean
Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 12:57 AM
To: Healeys
Subject: [Healeys] The Saturday Night Rant - Part III At
my age (approaching this side of 70) I am on lock down at my house. I
even have my groceries delivered. I will only go out to eat at a drive thr=
ough
with an N95 mask on. My Boston Terrier that goes with me does not wear
one. He refuses, but he is only three years old. So, being
sequestered to my domicile I have taken up the restoration of my BN2 with a
vengeance. I did not know I knew so many off color phrases.=20
Everything to be done on this car is difficult due to parts incompatibility=
,
parts fit, parts unavailability or just my general ignorance and/or
incompetence. This evening I finished mounting the right side front hub
with all new parts. I thought I had done a nice job. No lateral
play in the hub. Turns easily without binding. The correct amount
of shims after much trial and error. Disc brake conversion was mounted
and braided stainless steel flex brake lines hooked up at both ends. I
have yet to run the brake lines. Maybe next. This rant is
about the brand new Dayton wire wheels. I mounted the wire wheels which
have temporary used tires on them so I can move the car when it is down off=
the
dollies. After mounting the wheel I gave the two eared knockoff several
pretty good whacks. Now the moment of truth. I grabbed the wheel at
9 and 3 o'clock position and pulled straight back and forth. Yay! No
play, but when I rocked the wheel it moved slightly. I thought it was the
hub, but looking closely you can see the wire wheel hub rocking back and fo=
rth
in the knockoff! What!?! How hard are you supposed to hit those
knockoffs?Mike
MacLean=20
--=_33244cbc-fcda-4e8a-8169-023fc06d8108
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><head><style> body {height: 100%; color:#000000; font-size:12pt; font=
-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;}</style></head><body><div>FWIW, I use=
copper anti-seize also.</div><div><br data-mce-bogus=3D"1"></div><div><br>=
</div><div>----- Original Message -----<br>From: Max Byers <sbyers@ec.rr=
.com><br>To: healeys@autox.team.net<br>Sent: Mon, 11 May 2020 06:39:57 -=
0400 (EDT)<br>Subject: Re: [Healeys] Part III Knock offs<br></div><div><br>=
</div><style><!--<br> <br> @font-face<br>=09{font-family:Wingdings;<br>=09p=
anose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}<br>@font-face<br>=09{font-family:"Cambria Mat=
h";<br>=09panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}<br>@font-face<br>=09{font-family:C=
alibri;<br>=09panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}<br>@font-face<br>=09{font-fam=
ily:Tahoma;<br>=09panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}<br> <br> p.MsoNormal, li.=
MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal<br>=09{margin:0in;<br>=09margin-bottom:.0001pt;<br=
>=09font-size:11.0pt;<br>=09font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";}<br>a:link,=
span.MsoHyperlink<br>=09{mso-style-priority:99;<br>=09color:blue;<br>=09te=
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o-style-priority:99;<br>=09color:purple;<br>=09text-decoration:underline;}<=
br>p<br>=09{mso-style-priority:99;<br>=09mso-margin-top-alt:auto;<br>=09mar=
gin-right:0in;<br>=09mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;<br>=09margin-left:0in;<br>=
=09font-size:12.0pt;<br>=09font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}<br>span.=
EmailStyle18<br>=09{mso-style-type:personal;<br>=09font-family:"Calibri","s=
ans-serif";<br>=09color:windowtext;}<br>span.EmailStyle19<br>=09{mso-style-=
type:personal-reply;<br>=09font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";<br>=09color:=
#1F497D;}<br>.MsoChpDefault<br>=09{mso-style-type:export-only;<br>=09font-s=
ize:10.0pt;}<br>@page Section1<br>=09{size:8.5in 11.0in;<br>=09margin:1.0in=
1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}<br>div.Section1<br>=09{page:Section1;}<br>--></style><=
div class=3D"Section1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: #1f497d=
;" data-mce-style=3D"color: #1f497d;">Relative motion between two<br>metall=
ic surfaces in contact under high load can result in fretting of the<br>sur=
faces and possible stress corrosion cracking. Lubrication <b><i><u>is=
</u></i></b><br>necessary on the splines and conical surfaces of the wheel =
and hub to minimize<br>fretting. I=E2=80=99ve used only grease to lub=
ricate the wheel and hub surfaces for 36<br>years and I do not leave the wh=
eels on for years without cleaning and<br>re-lubrication. Never had a=
wheel seize on the hub, and the splines show no<br>signs of wear on the wh=
eels or hubs after 80,000 miles =E2=80=93 except that there is<br>some slig=
ht evidence of fretting on the inboard conical surfaces. </span></p><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: #1f497d;" data-mce-style=3D"color: #1=
f497d;"> </span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: #1f49=
7d;" data-mce-style=3D"color: #1f497d;">Steve Byers</span></p><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><span style=3D"color: #1f497d;" data-mce-style=3D"color: #1f497d;=
">HBJ8L/36666</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: #1f497=
d;" data-mce-style=3D"color: #1f497d;">BJ8 Registry</span></p><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><span style=3D"color: #1f497d;" data-mce-style=3D"color: #1f497d;=
">AHCA Delegate at Large</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"co=
lor: #1f497d;" data-mce-style=3D"color: #1f497d;">Havelock, NC USA</s=
pan></p><div><div style=3D"border: none; border-top: solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; p=
adding: 3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;" data-mce-style=3D"border: none; border-top: sol=
id #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding: 3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><s=
pan style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif';" data-m=
ce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif';">From:</=
span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-seri=
f';" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif=
';"> Healeys<br>[mailto:healeys-bounces@autox.team.net] <b>On Behalf Of </b=
>Mirek Sharp<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, May 10, 2020 7:36 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'Pe=
rry'<br><b>Cc:</b> healeys@autox.team.net<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Healeys] =
Part III Knock offs</span></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA">Perhaps a little tangential to =
the main<br>thread, and fully aware of the likelihood of me being accused o=
f being pedantic<br>(which never happens on this list </span><span lang=3D"=
EN-CA" style=3D"font-family: <br>Wingdings;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family:=
<br>Wingdings;">J</span><span lang=3D"EN-CA">), but regarding what to use =
on splines to<br>stop the wheel seizing on, I have never understood why the=
recommendation is<br>always for grease. Grease is designed to lubric=
ate parts, whereas <br>the intent of applying it to the splines is to =
prevent them seizing on, not<br>reduce friction (i.e., lubricate). Fo=
r that reason I have always used an<br>anti-seizing product, my favourite b=
eing Permatex Copper Anti-Seize Lubricant<br>(they call it a lubricant, but=
woe betide anyone who actually uses it to<br>lubricate). It should be used=
very sparingly, and I have never had an issue<br>with a wheel sizing on th=
e splines. A very fine smear of grease on the<br>outside of the taper=
on the knock-off I agree is a good thing as the intent<br>there IS to lubr=
icate. Also, providing it is used sparingly, I have never<br>had it s=
eep out of the hub and onto the spokes, avoiding the (in my opinion)<br>ter=
rible practice of smearing sillycone (mis-spell intended) over the spoke<br=
>heads inside the hub. Not to say grease does not work, it will, but =
why<br>not use a product designed for the purpose, and achieve clean spokes=
at the<br>same time?</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA"=
> </span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA">Cheers, Mirek=
</span></p><div><div style=3D"border: none; border-top: solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt=
; padding: 3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;" data-mce-style=3D"border: none; border-top: =
solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding: 3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b=
><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif';" dat=
a-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif';">From=
:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-s=
erif';" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-se=
rif';"> Healeys<br>[mailto:healeys-bounces@autox.team.net] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>gradea1@charter.net<br><b>Sent:</b> May-10-20 1:39 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'Pe=
rry'<br><b>Cc:</b> 'healeys@autox.team.net'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Healeys=
] Part III Knock offs</span></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span la=
ng=3D"EN-CA"> </span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA">R=
eplacement parts-not NOS-what if the<br>knockoff bottoms out on the s=
pline face before it tightens to the cone of<br>the wire wheel? A com=
bination of measured errors on replacement parts<br>could create this condi=
tion-front to back. The knockoffs were made to tighten,<br>but not be whale=
d upon. If properly applied each side they are self<br>tightening and=
I normally spin them on hand tight, hit them with the rawhide<br>snug whil=
e still up in the air, and then wack them one more time on the ground<br>wi=
th the copper side of Thor.</span></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lan=
g=3D"EN-CA"> </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=
=3D"EN-CA">One time in the early '70s I witnessed a<br>BMC "mechanic" whali=
ng on a knockoff of the Healey, still hanging on<br>the lube rack, with a t=
en pound long handle sledge hammer! Flat ears? you<br>betcha.</span><=
/p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA"> </span></p>=
</div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA">I would make sure th=
at when mounted, the<br>front edge of the wheel is just forward of the inne=
r depth of the knockoff so<br>that it actually contacts metal as it snugs i=
t to the rear ring on the<br>hub. </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA"> </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12.0pt;" data-mce-style=3D"margin-bottom: 12.=
0pt;"><span lang=3D"EN-CA">Also-grease-not<br>to much- but be sure splines,=
and ring of hub, and knockoff threads have a<br>light smear. I use HD whee=
l bearing grease so it doesn't seep out the<br>spoke nibs like moly o=
r light grease would. Hank</span></p><p><span lang=3D"EN-CA">--------------=
---------------------------</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margi=
n-bottom: 12.0pt;" data-mce-style=3D"margin-bottom: 12.0pt;"><span lang=3D"=
EN-CA">From:<br>"Perry via Healeys" <br></span></p><div><br></div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12.0pt;" data-mce-style=3D"margin-bo=
ttom: 12.0pt;"><span lang=3D"EN-CA">To: "rrengineer.mike@att.net"<br></span=
></p><div><br></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12.0pt;"=
data-mce-style=3D"margin-bottom: 12.0pt;"><span lang=3D"EN-CA">Cc: "healey=
s@autox.team.net"<br></span></p><div><br></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=
=3D"margin-bottom: 12.0pt;" data-mce-style=3D"margin-bottom: 12.0pt;"><span=
lang=3D"EN-CA">Sent: Sunday May 10 2020 9:01:21AM<br></span></p><div><br><=
/div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12.0pt;" data-mce-style=
=3D"margin-bottom: 12.0pt;"><span lang=3D"EN-CA">Subject: Re: [Healeys] The=
Saturday Night Rant - Part III Knock offs</span><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=
=3D"font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';" data-mce-st=
yle=3D"font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';"></span><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA">Michael et al,</span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA">Contemplate the mechanical connect=
ions<br>between the hub extension, wire wheel hub and the knockoff. </span>=
</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA">The hub extension is bolted=
to the axle<br>using tapered nuts that seat in the face of the extension. =
No rotational<br>movement.</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"E=
N-CA">The wire wheel is connected to the hub<br>extension via the splines. =
The tolerances in the splines may allow for some<br>rotational movement but=
they have to be loose enough to get the wheel off the<br>extension. </span=
></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA">What else holds the wheel =
in place=E2=80=A6the<br>knockoff. The cone in the knock off forces the wire=
wheel hub against the hub<br>extension, The contact interface is the taper=
s on the hub extension and the<br>wire wheel hub. You know the little area =
that we are frequently reminded to<br>apply a smear of grease to stop the l=
ittle squeaky noise at low speed. If the<br>knock off is tight enough there=
is not movement here either.</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=
=3D"EN-CA">So Mike, if you see movement between the<br>knock off and the wi=
re wheel, the knock off is not tight enough. </span></p><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA">Suspect that the folks that developed knock<=
br>offs understood the problem of owners/mechanics not getting them tight e=
nough<br>and used the handed (left and right) threads that self tighten. </=
span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA">Gentlemen, remember yo=
ur Mother today!</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA">Perr=
y</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA"> </span></p><p=
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA">Sent from <a href=3D"https://go.m=
icrosoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=3D550986" target=3D"_blank" data-mce-href=3D"ht=
tps://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=3D550986">Mail</a> for Windows 10</sp=
an></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA"> </span></p><div st=
yle=3D"border: none; border-top: solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding: 3.0pt 0in 0i=
n 0in;" data-mce-style=3D"border: none; border-top: solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; pa=
dding: 3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-CA">F=
rom: </span></b><span lang=3D"EN-CA"><a href=3D"mailto:rrengineer.mike@att.=
net" target=3D"_blank" data-mce-href=3D"mailto:rrengineer.mike@att.net";>Mic=
hael MacLean</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Sunday, May 10, 2020 12:57 AM<br><b>To: </=
b><a href=3D"mailto:healeys@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank" data-mce-href=
=3D"mailto:healeys@autox.team.net";>Healeys</a><br><b>Subject: </b>[Healeys]=
The Saturday Night Rant - Part III</span></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<span lang=3D"EN-CA"> </span></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'=
,'serif';" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: 'Times New Rom=
an','serif';">At<br>my age (approaching this side of 70) I am on lock down =
at my house. I<br>even have my groceries delivered. I will only=
go out to eat at a drive through<br>with an N95 mask on. My Boston T=
errier that goes with me does not wear<br>one. He refuses, but he is =
only three years old. So, being<br>sequestered to my domicile I have =
taken up the restoration of my BN2 with a<br>vengeance. I did not kno=
w I knew so many off color phrases. <br>Everything to be done on this =
car is difficult due to parts incompatibility,<br>parts fit, parts unavaila=
bility or just my general ignorance and/or<br>incompetence. Thi=
s evening I finished mounting the right side front hub<br>with all new part=
s. I thought I had done a nice job. No lateral<br>play in the h=
ub. Turns easily without binding. The correct amount<br>of shim=
s after much trial and error. Disc brake conversion was mounted<br>an=
d braided stainless steel flex brake lines hooked up at both ends. I<=
br>have yet to run the brake lines. Maybe next. This rant=
is<br>about the brand new Dayton wire wheels. I mounted the wire whe=
els which<br>have temporary used tires on them so I can move the car when i=
t is down off the<br>dollies. After mounting the wheel I gave the two=
eared knockoff several<br>pretty good whacks. Now the moment of trut=
h. I grabbed the wheel at<br>9 and 3 o'clock position and pulled stra=
ight back and forth. Yay! No<br>play, but when I rocked the wheel it =
moved slightly. I thought it was the<br>hub, but looking closely you =
can see the wire wheel hub rocking back and forth<br>in the knockoff! =
What!?! How hard are you supposed to hit those<br>knockoffs?</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-CA"></span></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lan=
g=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman','ser=
if';" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman','=
serif';">Mike<br>MacLean</span><span lang=3D"EN-CA"></span></p><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA"> </span></p></div></div><div><br></div=
><div><br></div></body></html>
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