Re: [Fot] Valve overlap and compression test

[Scott Janzen via Fot <fot@autox.team.net>]

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I see.  Difficult for me to compare, as all of the cam opening/closing =
data I have is at 50/1000, not the recommended operating clearances.  I =
do agree with Phil Gott=E2=80=99s email that the compression numbers are =
primarily useful as relative checks against each other.  If something is =
out of line it indicates an issue.

On May 3, 2020, at 2:25 AM, van.mulders.marcel@telenet.be wrote:

Hi Scott,
The 110=C2=B0 degrees is really the valve overlap, in crankshaft =
degrees, as you understand it, but at the recommended operating valve =
lash, 0.016". Checking at 0.050" would result in much lower overlap. =
Installed at 103=C2=B0(=3Dadvanced a bit) , inlet valve is opening 53=C2=B0=
 before TDC and exhaust valve is closing at 57=C2=B0 after TDC. But =
110=C2=B0 is a lot of overlap :the  BFE24 grind has 112=C2=B0 but most =
racecams are between 95 and 105=C2=B0 it seems. The cam in my engine is =
installed at 104=C2=B0, I'm thinking of trying to advance it to 100=C2=B0 =
; then the inlet valve is closing earlier. Now the engine has a REAL 210 =
hp, with the leaking valves and I'm just starting the testing on my =
engine dyno. People who are racing TR6 engines are easily talking about =
230 and 250hp but you never know what that means. But 210=C2=B0 is =
disappointing, it should go up, more so because the displacement is =
2720cc (evenly spaced bores of 78mm)
Marcel

Van: "Scott Janzen" <sjanzen@me.com>
Aan: "van mulders marcel" <van.mulders.marcel@telenet.be>
Cc: "tr4racing" <tr4racing@googlemail.com>, "fot" <fot@autox.team.net>
Verzonden: Zaterdag 2 mei 2020 23:36:31
Onderwerp: Re: [Fot] Valve overlap and compression test

Maercel, I=E2=80=99m puzzled. Are you referring to the lobe separation =
angle, or to the overlap between the intake valve opening before TDC and =
the exhaust valve closing after TDC on the same revolution?  Unless =
I=E2=80=99m reading them wrong, I=E2=80=99ve looked at some pretty =
radical cam specs and the opening/closing overlap does not approach 110 =
degrees, more like 50 degrees on a really aggressive cam, but the lobe =
separation angle is about 104 degrees on the cam I have in the car and =
107 on the cam I=E2=80=99m putting in another engine.

On May 2, 2020, at 4:30 PM, van.mulders.marcel--- via Fot =

Hallo Chris,
of course the cylinderhead has to be repaired. I think the man who has =
put the big valves in it, has taken too much risks : the valve seats =
(the rings that are pressed into the cyl head) are small where they do =
meet, and maybe the seats are distorted a bit because of this, but I =
don't know for sure, I will see when pulling the head.  I know one =
cannot change the valve clearance too much, but maybe 0.05mm more valve =
lash is ok and it will reduce the valve overlap. I believe 110=C2=B0 =
overlap is a lot, even for a racecamshaft. Any idea's someone about =
that? The compression test with increased valve lash is much higher than =
with the recommended valve lash : I wonder if it is making any sense at =
all to check the compression of a race engine without increasing the =
valve lash : with the normal clearances, the inlet valve is  closing =
when the piston has already travelled a lot upwards, hence the big =
difference between the compression test results with normal and with =
increased valve lash. So I think, if you want to test the compression, =
you have to increase the valve lash firstly(at least when the engine has =
a race camshaft).
Marcel

Verzonden: Zaterdag 2 mei 2020 21:29:59
Onderwerp: Re: [Fot] Valve overlap and compression test

Hello Marcel,
=20
Your engine has leaking valves.
It won=E2=80=99t get better from changing measurement procedures.
Maybe the seat is rough, or the valves bent, or offset .
Something to make sure about.
=20
Enlarging the valve leash could result in hammering everything dead in =
the valve train.
=20
Cheers
Chris
=20
Von: Fot <fot-bounces@autox.team.net =
van.mulders.marcel--- via Fot
Gesendet: Samstag, 2. Mai 2020 14:43
Betreff: [Fot] Valve overlap and compression test
=20
A leaking test on my TR6 engine is showing a leaking exhaust valve on =
cyl no 1 (48% on the gauge of the device) and a leaking inlet valve on =
cyl no 2 (75%). Compression on cyl no1 is 9.5 bar and on cyl 2 it is 8 =
bar. The compression on the other cylinders is between 12 and 13.5 bar. =
This is with a race cam with a valve overlap of 110=C2=B0 (320-F grind). =
Because of the high overlap, the piston has risen a lot before the inlet =
valve is closed, so I did the compression test again, but with a valve =
lash of 2.5mm/0.1" : compression went from 9.5 bar to 14.5 on cyl no 1 =
and from 8 bar to 15 on cyl no 2. With this valve lash, the compression =
on the other cylinders went up to 16 - 18.5 bar. Of course, when the =
engine is running at high rpm, a lot of valve overlap is necessary for =
best cylinder filling, but I wonder if 110=C2=B0 isn't too much?? The =
recommended valve lash is 0.40mm/0.016" when the rocker ratio is =
1.45(0.43mm/ with my 1.55 roller rockers). Would it be risky to set the =
valve lash at some 0.05mm/0.002" higher?
PS : is it common practice to set the valve lash at a couple of mm to =
perform a compression test, because it seems that the valve lash has a =
lot of influence on the result when testing a race camshaft?
Marcel

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">I =
see. &nbsp;Difficult for me to compare, as all of the cam =
opening/closing data I have is at 50/1000, not the recommended operating =
clearances. &nbsp;I do agree with Phil Gott=E2=80=99s email that the =
compression numbers are primarily useful as relative checks against each =
other. &nbsp;If something is out of line it indicates an issue.<br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">On May 3, 2020, at 2:25 =
AM, <a href=3D"mailto:van.mulders.marcel@telenet.be"; =
class=3D"">van.mulders.marcel@telenet.be</a> wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: =
10pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hi Scott,</div><div class=3D"">The =
110=C2=B0 degrees is really the valve overlap, in crankshaft degrees, as =
you understand it, but at the recommended operating valve lash, 0.016". =
Checking at 0.050" would result in much lower overlap. Installed at =
103=C2=B0(=3Dadvanced a bit) , inlet valve is opening 53=C2=B0 before =
TDC and exhaust valve is closing at 57=C2=B0 after TDC. But 110=C2=B0 is =
a lot of overlap :the&nbsp; BFE24 grind has 112=C2=B0 but most racecams =
are between 95 and 105=C2=B0 it seems. The cam in my engine is installed =
at 104=C2=B0, I'm thinking of trying to advance it to 100=C2=B0 ; then =
the inlet valve is closing earlier. Now the engine has a REAL 210 hp, =
with the leaking valves and I'm just starting the testing on my engine =
dyno. People who are racing TR6 engines are easily talking about 230 and =
250hp but you never know what that means. But 210=C2=B0 is =
disappointing, it should go up, more so because the displacement is =
2720cc (evenly spaced bores of 78mm)</div><div class=3D"">Marcel</div><div=
 class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><hr id=3D"zwchr" =
data-marker=3D"__DIVIDER__" class=3D""><div data-marker=3D"__HEADERS__" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Van: </b>"Scott Janzen" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:sjanzen@me.com"; class=3D"">sjanzen@me.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Aan: </b>"van mulders marcel" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:van.mulders.marcel@telenet.be"; =
class=3D"">van.mulders.marcel@telenet.be</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc: </b>"tr4racing" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:tr4racing@googlemail.com"; =
class=3D"">tr4racing@googlemail.com</a>&gt;, "fot" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; =
class=3D"">fot@autox.team.net</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Verzonden: </b>Zaterdag 2 mei 2020 23:36:31<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Onderwerp: </b>Re: [Fot] Valve overlap and compression =
test<br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
data-marker=3D"__QUOTED_TEXT__" class=3D"">Maercel, I=E2=80=99m puzzled. =
Are you referring to the lobe separation angle, or to the overlap =
between the intake valve opening before TDC and the exhaust valve =
closing after TDC on the same revolution? &nbsp;Unless I=E2=80=99m =
reading them wrong, I=E2=80=99ve looked at some pretty radical cam specs =
and the opening/closing overlap does not approach 110 degrees, more like =
50 degrees on a really aggressive cam, but the lobe separation angle is =
about 104 degrees on the cam I have in the car and 107 on the cam I=E2=80=99=
m putting in another engine.<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On May 2, 2020, at 4:30 PM, =
van.mulders.marcel--- via Fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; =
target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" =
class=3D"">fot@autox.team.net</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-dec=
oration:none;font-family:'verdana' , 'arial' , 'helvetica' , =
sans-serif;font-size:10pt" class=3D""><div class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Hallo Chris,</div><div class=3D"">of course the cylinderhead =
has to be repaired. I think the man who has put the big valves in it, =
has taken too much risks : the valve seats (the rings that are pressed =
into the cyl head) are small where they do meet, and maybe the seats are =
distorted a bit because of this, but I don't know for sure, I will see =
when pulling the head.&nbsp; I know one cannot change the valve =
clearance too much, but maybe 0.05mm more valve lash is ok and it will =
reduce the valve overlap. I believe 110=C2=B0 overlap is a lot, even for =
a racecamshaft. Any idea's someone about that? The compression test with =
increased valve lash is much higher than with the recommended valve lash =
: I wonder if it is making any sense at all to check the compression of =
a race engine without increasing the valve lash : with the normal =
clearances, the inlet valve is&nbsp; closing when the piston has already =
travelled a lot upwards, hence the big difference between the =
compression test results with normal and with increased valve lash. So I =
think, if you want to test the compression, you have to increase the =
valve lash firstly(at least when the engine has a race =
camshaft).</div><div class=3D"">Marcel</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><hr id=3D"zwchr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Van:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"fot" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow =
noopener noreferrer" class=3D"">fot@autox.team.net</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Aan:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"fot" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow =
noopener noreferrer" class=3D"">fot@autox.team.net</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Verzonden:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Zaterdag 2 mei 2020 =
21:29:59<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Onderwerp:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Fot] Valve overlap =
and compression test<br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1"><div =
style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D"">Hello Marcel,</span></div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , =
sans-serif"><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></p><div =
style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif" =
class=3D"">Your engine has leaking valves.</div><div =
style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif" =
class=3D"">It won=E2=80=99t get better from changing measurement =
procedures.</div><div =
style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif" =
class=3D"">Maybe the seat is rough, or the valves bent, or offset =
.</div><div style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , =
sans-serif" class=3D"">Something to make sure about.</div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , =
sans-serif">&nbsp;</p><div =
style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif" =
class=3D"">Enlarging the valve leash could result in hammering =
everything dead in the valve train.</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , =
sans-serif">&nbsp;</p><div =
style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif" =
class=3D"">Cheers</div><div =
style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif" =
class=3D"">Chris</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , =
sans-serif">&nbsp;</p><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style:solid =
none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb( 225 , 225 , 225 =
);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span lang=3D"DE" class=3D"">Von:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"DE" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Fot &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank" =
rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" =
class=3D"">fot-bounces@autox.team.net</a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">Im Auftrag =
von<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>van.mulders.marcel--- =
via Fot<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Gesendet:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Samstag, 2. Mai 2020 =
14:43<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">An:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>fot &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow =
noopener noreferrer" class=3D"">fot@autox.team.net</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Betreff:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[Fot] Valve overlap and =
compression test</span></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , =
sans-serif">&nbsp;</p><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:'verdana' , =
sans-serif" class=3D"">A leaking test on my TR6 engine is showing a =
leaking exhaust valve on cyl no 1 (48% on the gauge of the device) and a =
leaking inlet valve on cyl no 2 (75%). Compression on cyl no1 is 9.5 bar =
and on cyl 2 it is 8 bar. The compression on the other cylinders is =
between 12 and 13.5 bar. This is with a race cam with a valve overlap of =
110=C2=B0 (320-F grind). Because of the high overlap, the piston has =
risen a lot before the inlet valve is closed, so I did the compression =
test again, but with a valve lash of 2.5mm/0.1" : compression went from =
9.5 bar to 14.5 on cyl no 1 and from 8 bar to 15 on cyl no 2. With this =
valve lash, the compression on the other cylinders went up to 16 - 18.5 =
bar. Of course, when the engine is running at high rpm, a lot of valve =
overlap is necessary for best cylinder filling, but I wonder if 110=C2=B0 =
isn't too much?? The recommended valve lash is 0.40mm/0.016" when the =
rocker ratio is 1.45(0.43mm/ with my 1.55 roller rockers). Would it be =
risky to set the valve lash at some 0.05mm/0.002" =
higher?</span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:'verdana' , =
sans-serif" class=3D"">PS : is it common practice to set the valve lash =
at a couple of mm to perform a compression test, because it seems that =
the valve lash has a lot of influence on the result when testing a race =
camshaft?</span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:'verdana' , =
sans-serif" class=3D"">Marcel</span></div></div></div></div><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank" =
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target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" =
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