Re: [Fot] Valve overlap and compression test

[Phil Gott via Fot <fot@autox.team.net>]

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Marcel:
There are many variables that influence the absolute value of the maximum pr=
essure you record in a compression test. The purpose of the test is not to d=
etermine your compression ratio, but to detect differences in pressure betwe=
en cylinders. Significant differences are an indication of an incipient fail=
ure or worn parts. The best practice would be to do an initial compression t=
est after engine break in and then periodically after that, making sure to d=
uplicate as much as possible the conditions of your initial test. That way y=
ou can track the relative health of the cylinder components.
Phil Gott=20

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 3, 2020, at 2:51 AM, van.mulders.marcel--- via Fot <fot@autox.team.=
net> wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF
> The lobe separation angle is 105=C2=B0 and valve timing is 57-83 inlet and=
 87-53 exhaust. So I think it is  110=C2=B0 (inlet opens at 57=C2=B0 before T=
DC and outlet closes at 53=C2=B0 after TDC)
> Marcel
>=20
> Van: "John Styduhar" <johnstydo@gmail.com>
> Aan: "Scott Janzen" <sjanzen@me.com>
> Cc: "van mulders marcel" <van.mulders.marcel@telenet.be>, "fot" <fot@autox=
.team.net>
> Verzonden: Zondag 3 mei 2020 02:38:14
> Onderwerp: Re: [Fot] Valve overlap and compression test
>=20
> I think Marcel is talking about the lobe separation angle (LSA).  The Isky=
 TR 777 cam I'm running has the same LSA.  LSA is not effected by valve lash=
 adjustment.
>=20
>=20
>> On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 5:36 PM Scott Janzen via Fot <fot@autox.team.net> w=
rote:
>> Maercel, I=E2=80=99m puzzled. Are you referring to the lobe separation an=
gle, or to the overlap between the intake valve opening before TDC and the e=
xhaust valve closing after TDC on the same revolution?  Unless I=E2=80=99m r=
eading them wrong, I=E2=80=99ve looked at some pretty radical cam specs and t=
he opening/closing overlap does not approach 110 degrees, more like 50 degre=
es on a really aggressive cam, but the lobe separation angle is about 104 de=
grees on the cam I have in the car and 107 on the cam I=E2=80=99m putting in=
 another engine.
>>=20
>> On May 2, 2020, at 4:30 PM, van.mulders.marcel--- via Fot <fot@autox.team=
.net> wrote:
>>=20
>> Hallo Chris,
>> of course the cylinderhead has to be repaired. I think the man who has pu=
t the big valves in it, has taken too much risks : the valve seats (the ring=
s that are pressed into the cyl head) are small where they do meet, and mayb=
e the seats are distorted a bit because of this, but I don't know for sure, I=
 will see when pulling the head.  I know one cannot change the valve clearan=
ce too much, but maybe 0.05mm more valve lash is ok and it will reduce the v=
alve overlap. I believe 110=C2=B0 overlap is a lot, even for a racecamshaft.=
 Any idea's someone about that? The compression test with increased valve la=
sh is much higher than with the recommended valve lash : I wonder if it is m=
aking any sense at all to check the compression of a race engine without inc=
reasing the valve lash : with the normal clearances, the inlet valve is  clo=
sing when the piston has already travelled a lot upwards, hence the big diff=
erence between the compression test results with normal and with increased v=
alve lash. So I think, if you want to test the compression, you have to incr=
ease the valve lash firstly(at least when the engine has a race camshaft).
>> Marcel
>>=20
>> Van: "fot" <fot@autox.team.net>
>> Aan: "fot" <fot@autox.team.net>
>> Verzonden: Zaterdag 2 mei 2020 21:29:59
>> Onderwerp: Re: [Fot] Valve overlap and compression test
>>=20
>> Hello Marcel,
>> =20
>> Your engine has leaking valves.
>> It won=E2=80=99t get better from changing measurement procedures.
>> Maybe the seat is rough, or the valves bent, or offset .
>> Something to make sure about.
>> =20
>> Enlarging the valve leash could result in hammering everything dead in th=
e valve train.
>> =20
>> Cheers
>> Chris
>> =20
>> Von: Fot <fot-bounces@autox.team.net> Im Auftrag von van.mulders.marcel--=
- via Fot
>> Gesendet: Samstag, 2. Mai 2020 14:43
>> An: fot <fot@autox.team.net>
>> Betreff: [Fot] Valve overlap and compression test
>> =20
>> A leaking test on my TR6 engine is showing a leaking exhaust valve on cyl=
 no 1 (48% on the gauge of the device) and a leaking inlet valve on cyl no 2=
 (75%). Compression on cyl no1 is 9.5 bar and on cyl 2 it is 8 bar. The comp=
ression on the other cylinders is between 12 and 13.5 bar. This is with a ra=
ce cam with a valve overlap of 110=C2=B0 (320-F grind). Because of the high o=
verlap, the piston has risen a lot before the inlet valve is closed, so I di=
d the compression test again, but with a valve lash of 2.5mm/0.1" : compress=
ion went from 9.5 bar to 14.5 on cyl no 1 and from 8 bar to 15 on cyl no 2. W=
ith this valve lash, the compression on the other cylinders went up to 16 - 1=
8.5 bar. Of course, when the engine is running at high rpm, a lot of valve o=
verlap is necessary for best cylinder filling, but I wonder if 110=C2=B0 isn=
't too much?? The recommended valve lash is 0.40mm/0.016" when the rocker ra=
tio is 1.45(0.43mm/ with my 1.55 roller rockers). Would it be risky to set t=
he valve lash at some 0.05mm/0.002" higher?
>> PS : is it common practice to set the valve lash at a couple of mm to per=
form a compression test, because it seems that the valve lash has a lot of i=
nfluence on the result when testing a race camshaft?
>> Marcel
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> fot@autox.team.net
>>=20
>> http://www.fot-racing.com
>>=20
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/van.mulders=
.marcel@telenet.be
>> _______________________________________________
>> fot@autox.team.net
>>=20
>> http://www.fot-racing.com
>>=20
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/sjanzen@me.=
com
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> fot@autox.team.net
>>=20
>> http://www.fot-racing.com
>>=20
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/johnstydo@g=
mail.com
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> fot@autox.team.net
>=20
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>=20
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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.com
>=20
>=20

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">Marcel:<div>There are many variables that i=
nfluence the absolute value of the maximum pressure you record in a compress=
ion test. The purpose of the test is not to determine your compression ratio=
, but to detect differences in pressure between cylinders. Significant diffe=
rences are an indication of an incipient failure or worn parts. The best pra=
ctice would be to do an initial compression test after engine break in and t=
hen periodically after that, making sure to duplicate as much as possible th=
e conditions of your initial test. That way you can track the relative healt=
h of the cylinder components.</div><div>Phil Gott&nbsp;<br><br><div dir=3D"l=
tr">Sent from my iPhone</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">=
On May 3, 2020, at 2:51 AM, van.mulders.marcel--- via Fot &lt;fot@autox.team=
.net&gt; wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=
=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div style=3D"font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans=
-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: #000000"><div>The lobe separation angle is 1=
05=C2=B0 and valve timing is 57-83 inlet and 87-53 exhaust. So I think it is=
&nbsp; 110=C2=B0 (inlet opens at 57=C2=B0 before TDC and outlet closes at 53=
=C2=B0 after TDC)</div><div>Marcel</div><div><br></div><hr id=3D"zwchr" data=
-marker=3D"__DIVIDER__"><div data-marker=3D"__HEADERS__"><b>Van: </b>"John S=
tyduhar" &lt;johnstydo@gmail.com&gt;<br><b>Aan: </b>"Scott Janzen" &lt;sjanz=
en@me.com&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>"van mulders marcel" &lt;van.mulders.marcel@tele=
net.be&gt;, "fot" &lt;fot@autox.team.net&gt;<br><b>Verzonden: </b>Zondag 3 m=
ei 2020 02:38:14<br><b>Onderwerp: </b>Re: [Fot] Valve overlap and compressio=
n test<br></div><div><br></div><div data-marker=3D"__QUOTED_TEXT__"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">I think Marc=
el is talking about the lobe separation angle (LSA).&nbsp; The Isky TR 777 c=
am I'm running has the same LSA.&nbsp; LSA is not effected by valve lash adj=
ustment.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></d=
iv></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr=
">On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 5:36 PM Scott Janzen via Fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
fot@autox.team.net" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer">f=
ot@autox.team.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb( 204 , 204 , 204 )=
;padding-left:1ex"><div>Maercel, I=E2=80=99m puzzled. Are you referring to t=
he lobe separation angle, or to the overlap between the intake valve opening=
 before TDC and the exhaust valve closing after TDC on the same revolution?&=
nbsp; Unless I=E2=80=99m reading them wrong, I=E2=80=99ve looked at some pre=
tty radical cam specs and the opening/closing overlap does not approach 110 d=
egrees, more like 50 degrees on a really aggressive cam, but the lobe separa=
tion angle is about 104 degrees on the cam I have in the car and 107 on the c=
am I=E2=80=99m putting in another engine.<br><div><br><div>On May 2, 2020, a=
t 4:30 PM, van.mulders.marcel--- via Fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.tea=
m.net" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer">fot@autox.team=
.net</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div><div style=3D"font-style:normal;font-weigh=
t:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spa=
ce:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:'verdana' , 'ari=
al' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><div>Hallo Chris,</div><div>o=
f course the cylinderhead has to be repaired. I think the man who has put th=
e big valves in it, has taken too much risks : the valve seats (the rings th=
at are pressed into the cyl head) are small where they do meet, and maybe th=
e seats are distorted a bit because of this, but I don't know for sure, I wi=
ll see when pulling the head.&nbsp; I know one cannot change the valve clear=
ance too much, but maybe 0.05mm more valve lash is ok and it will reduce the=
 valve overlap. I believe 110=C2=B0 overlap is a lot, even for a racecamshaf=
t. Any idea's someone about that? The compression test with increased valve l=
ash is much higher than with the recommended valve lash : I wonder if it is m=
aking any sense at all to check the compression of a race engine without inc=
reasing the valve lash : with the normal clearances, the inlet valve is&nbsp=
; closing when the piston has already travelled a lot upwards, hence the big=
 difference between the compression test results with normal and with increa=
sed valve lash. So I think, if you want to test the compression, you have to=
 increase the valve lash firstly(at least when the engine has a race camshaf=
t).</div><div>Marcel</div><br><hr id=3D"gmail-m_487887638361507941zwchr"><di=
v><b>Van:&nbsp;</b>"fot" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; target=3D=
"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer">fot@autox.team.net</a>&gt;<br>=
<b>Aan:&nbsp;</b>"fot" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_=
blank" rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer">fot@autox.team.net</a>&gt;<br><b=
>Verzonden:&nbsp;</b>Zaterdag 2 mei 2020 21:29:59<br><b>Onderwerp:&nbsp;</b>=
Re: [Fot] Valve overlap and compression test<br></div><br><div><div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif"><span la=
ng=3D"DE">Hello Marcel,</span></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0=
cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif"><span lang=3D"DE">&nbs=
p;</span></p><div style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' ,=
 sans-serif">Your engine has leaking valves.</div><div style=3D"margin:0cm;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif">It won=E2=80=99t get bette=
r from changing measurement procedures.</div><div style=3D"margin:0cm;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif">Maybe the seat is rough, or the=
 valves bent, or offset .</div><div style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:'calibri' , sans-serif">Something to make sure about.</div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , sans-=
serif">&nbsp;</p><div style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibr=
i' , sans-serif">Enlarging the valve leash could result in hammering everyth=
ing dead in the valve train.</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif">&nbsp;</p><div style=3D"=
margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif">Cheers</div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif">Ch=
ris</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:'calibri' , sans-serif">&nbsp;</p><div><div style=3D"border-style:solid n=
one none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb( 225 , 225 , 225 );paddin=
g:3pt 0cm 0cm"><div style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri'=
 , sans-serif"><b><span lang=3D"DE">Von:</span></b><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;Fo=
t &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank" rel=3D=
"nofollow noopener noreferrer">fot-bounces@autox.team.net</a>&gt;&nbsp;<b>Im=
 Auftrag von&nbsp;</b>van.mulders.marcel--- via Fot<br><b>Gesendet:</b>&nbsp=
;Samstag, 2. Mai 2020 14:43<br><b>An:</b>&nbsp;fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fot=
@autox.team.net" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer">fot@=
autox.team.net</a>&gt;<br><b>Betreff:</b>&nbsp;[Fot] Valve overlap and compr=
ession test</span></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0=
cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif">&nbsp;</p><div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif">A leaking te=
st on my TR6 engine is showing a leaking exhaust valve on cyl no 1 (48% on t=
he gauge of the device) and a leaking inlet valve on cyl no 2 (75%). Compres=
sion on cyl no1 is 9.5 bar and on cyl 2 it is 8 bar. The compression on the o=
ther cylinders is between 12 and 13.5 bar. This is with a race cam with a va=
lve overlap of 110=C2=B0 (320-F grind). Because of the high overlap, the pis=
ton has risen a lot before the inlet valve is closed, so I did the compressi=
on test again, but with a valve lash of 2.5mm/0.1" : compression went from 9=
.5 bar to 14.5 on cyl no 1 and from 8 bar to 15 on cyl no 2. With this valve=
 lash, the compression on the other cylinders went up to 16 - 18.5 bar. Of c=
ourse, when the engine is running at high rpm, a lot of valve overlap is nec=
essary for best cylinder filling, but I wonder if 110=C2=B0 isn't too much??=
 The recommended valve lash is 0.40mm/0.016" when the rocker ratio is 1.45(0=
.43mm/ with my 1.55 roller rockers). Would it be risky to set the valve lash=
 at some 0.05mm/0.002" higher?</span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0=
cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10pt;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif">PS : is it common practice to se=
t the valve lash at a couple of mm to perform a compression test, because it=
 seems that the valve lash has a lot of influence on the result when testing=
 a race camshaft?</span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-=
family:'verdana' , sans-serif">Marcel</span></div></div></div></div><br>____=
___________________________________________<br><a href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.t=
eam.net" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer">fot@autox.te=
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el=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer">http://www.fot-racing.com</a><br><br>Don=
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