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Re: [Fot] Valve overlap and compression test

To: Scott Janzen <sjanzen@me.com>
Subject: Re: [Fot] Valve overlap and compression test
From: John Styduhar via Fot <fot@autox.team.net>
Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 20:38:14 -0400
Cc: 'Friends of Triumph' Triumph <fot@autox.team.net>
Delivered-to: mharc@autox.team.net
Delivered-to: fot@autox.team.net
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I think Marcel is talking about the lobe separation angle (LSA).  The Isky
TR 777 cam I'm running has the same LSA.  LSA is not effected by valve lash
adjustment.


On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 5:36 PM Scott Janzen via Fot <fot@autox.team.net>
wrote:

> Maercel, I=E2=80=99m puzzled. Are you referring to the lobe separation an=
gle, or
> to the overlap between the intake valve opening before TDC and the exhaus=
t
> valve closing after TDC on the same revolution?  Unless I=E2=80=99m readi=
ng them
> wrong, I=E2=80=99ve looked at some pretty radical cam specs and the openi=
ng/closing
> overlap does not approach 110 degrees, more like 50 degrees on a really
> aggressive cam, but the lobe separation angle is about 104 degrees on the
> cam I have in the car and 107 on the cam I=E2=80=99m putting in another e=
ngine.
>
> On May 2, 2020, at 4:30 PM, van.mulders.marcel--- via Fot <
> fot@autox.team.net> wrote:
>
> Hallo Chris,
> of course the cylinderhead has to be repaired. I think the man who has pu=
t
> the big valves in it, has taken too much risks : the valve seats (the rin=
gs
> that are pressed into the cyl head) are small where they do meet, and may=
be
> the seats are distorted a bit because of this, but I don't know for sure,=
 I
> will see when pulling the head.  I know one cannot change the valve
> clearance too much, but maybe 0.05mm more valve lash is ok and it will
> reduce the valve overlap. I believe 110=C2=B0 overlap is a lot, even for =
a
> racecamshaft. Any idea's someone about that? The compression test with
> increased valve lash is much higher than with the recommended valve lash =
:
> I wonder if it is making any sense at all to check the compression of a
> race engine without increasing the valve lash : with the normal clearance=
s,
> the inlet valve is  closing when the piston has already travelled a lot
> upwards, hence the big difference between the compression test results wi=
th
> normal and with increased valve lash. So I think, if you want to test the
> compression, you have to increase the valve lash firstly(at least when th=
e
> engine has a race camshaft).
> Marcel
>
> ------------------------------
> *Van: *"fot" <fot@autox.team.net>
> *Aan: *"fot" <fot@autox.team.net>
> *Verzonden: *Zaterdag 2 mei 2020 21:29:59
> *Onderwerp: *Re: [Fot] Valve overlap and compression test
>
> Hello Marcel,
>
>
> Your engine has leaking valves.
> It won=E2=80=99t get better from changing measurement procedures.
> Maybe the seat is rough, or the valves bent, or offset .
> Something to make sure about.
>
>
> Enlarging the valve leash could result in hammering everything dead in th=
e
> valve train.
>
>
> Cheers
> Chris
>
>
> *Von:* Fot <fot-bounces@autox.team.net> *Im Auftrag von *van.mulders.marc=
el---
> via Fot
> *Gesendet:* Samstag, 2. Mai 2020 14:43
> *An:* fot <fot@autox.team.net>
> *Betreff:* [Fot] Valve overlap and compression test
>
>
> A leaking test on my TR6 engine is showing a leaking exhaust valve on cyl
> no 1 (48% on the gauge of the device) and a leaking inlet valve on cyl no=
 2
> (75%). Compression on cyl no1 is 9.5 bar and on cyl 2 it is 8 bar. The
> compression on the other cylinders is between 12 and 13.5 bar. This is wi=
th
> a race cam with a valve overlap of 110=C2=B0 (320-F grind). Because of th=
e high
> overlap, the piston has risen a lot before the inlet valve is closed, so =
I
> did the compression test again, but with a valve lash of 2.5mm/0.1" :
> compression went from 9.5 bar to 14.5 on cyl no 1 and from 8 bar to 15 on
> cyl no 2. With this valve lash, the compression on the other cylinders we=
nt
> up to 16 - 18.5 bar. Of course, when the engine is running at high rpm, a
> lot of valve overlap is necessary for best cylinder filling, but I wonder
> if 110=C2=B0 isn't too much?? The recommended valve lash is 0.40mm/0.016"=
 when
> the rocker ratio is 1.45(0.43mm/ with my 1.55 roller rockers). Would it b=
e
> risky to set the valve lash at some 0.05mm/0.002" higher?
> PS : is it common practice to set the valve lash at a couple of mm to
> perform a compression test, because it seems that the valve lash has a lo=
t
> of influence on the result when testing a race camshaft?
> Marcel
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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>
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>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">I t=
hink Marcel is talking about the lobe separation angle (LSA).=C2=A0 The Isk=
y TR 777 cam I&#39;m running has the same LSA.=C2=A0 LSA is not effected by=
 valve lash adjustment.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-siz=
e:small"><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" cl=
ass=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 5:36 PM Scott Janzen via Fot &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net";>fot@autox.team.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br>=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overf=
low-wrap: break-word;">Maercel, I=E2=80=99m puzzled. Are you referring to t=
he lobe separation angle, or to the overlap between the intake valve openin=
g before TDC and the exhaust valve closing after TDC on the same revolution=
?=C2=A0 Unless I=E2=80=99m reading them wrong, I=E2=80=99ve looked at some =
pretty radical cam specs and the opening/closing overlap does not approach =
110 degrees, more like 50 degrees on a really aggressive cam, but the lobe =
separation angle is about 104 degrees on the cam I have in the car and 107 =
on the cam I=E2=80=99m putting in another engine.<br><div><br><div>On May 2=
, 2020, at 4:30 PM, van.mulders.marcel--- via Fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fot=
@autox.team.net" target=3D"_blank">fot@autox.team.net</a>&gt; wrote:</div><=
br><div><div style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weigh=
t:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transf=
orm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-fami=
ly:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><div></div><div>Hallo=
 Chris,</div><div>of course the cylinderhead has to be repaired. I think th=
e man who has put the big valves in it, has taken too much risks : the valv=
e seats (the rings that are pressed into the cyl head) are small where they=
 do meet, and maybe the seats are distorted a bit because of this, but I do=
n&#39;t know for sure, I will see when pulling the head.=C2=A0 I know one c=
annot change the valve clearance too much, but maybe 0.05mm more valve lash=
 is ok and it will reduce the valve overlap. I believe 110=C2=B0 overlap is=
 a lot, even for a racecamshaft. Any idea&#39;s someone about that? The com=
pression test with increased valve lash is much higher than with the recomm=
ended valve lash : I wonder if it is making any sense at all to check the c=
ompression of a race engine without increasing the valve lash : with the no=
rmal clearances, the inlet valve is=C2=A0 closing when the piston has alrea=
dy travelled a lot upwards, hence the big difference between the compressio=
n test results with normal and with increased valve lash. So I think, if yo=
u want to test the compression, you have to increase the valve lash firstly=
(at least when the engine has a race camshaft).</div><div>Marcel</div><div>=
<br></div><hr id=3D"gmail-m_487887638361507941zwchr"><div><b>Van:<span>=C2=
=A0</span></b>&quot;fot&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; tar=
get=3D"_blank">fot@autox.team.net</a>&gt;<br><b>Aan:<span>=C2=A0</span></b>=
&quot;fot&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank"=
>fot@autox.team.net</a>&gt;<br><b>Verzonden:<span>=C2=A0</span></b>Zaterdag=
 2 mei 2020 21:29:59<br><b>Onderwerp:<span>=C2=A0</span></b>Re: [Fot] Valve=
 overlap and compression test<br></div><div><br></div><div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang=3D=
"DE">Hello Marcel,</span></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span lang=3D"DE">=C2=A0</spa=
n></p><div style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f">Your engine has leaking valves.</div><div style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">It won=E2=80=99t get better from chang=
ing measurement procedures.</div><div style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Maybe the seat is rough, or the valves bent, =
or offset .</div><div style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif">Something to make sure about.</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</p><=
div style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Enla=
rging the valve leash could result in hammering everything dead in the valv=
e train.</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</p><div style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Cheers</div><div style=3D"margin:0cm;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Chris</div><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al" style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=
=A0</p><div><div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt=
;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm"><div style=3D"margi=
n:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b><span lang=3D"DE">V=
on:</span></b><span lang=3D"DE"><span>=C2=A0</span>Fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:fot-bounces@autox.team.net" target=3D"_blank">fot-bounces@autox.team.net<=
/a>&gt;<span>=C2=A0</span><b>Im Auftrag von<span>=C2=A0</span></b>van.mulde=
rs.marcel--- via Fot<br><b>Gesendet:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Samstag, 2. Mai =
2020 14:43<br><b>An:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fot@au=
tox.team.net" target=3D"_blank">fot@autox.team.net</a>&gt;<br><b>Betreff:</=
b><span>=C2=A0</span>[Fot] Valve overlap and compression test</span></div><=
/div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</p><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:verdana,sans-serif">A leaking test on my TR6 engine is showing a =
leaking exhaust valve on cyl no 1 (48% on the gauge of the device) and a le=
aking inlet valve on cyl no 2 (75%). Compression on cyl no1 is 9.5 bar and =
on cyl 2 it is 8 bar. The compression on the other cylinders is between 12 =
and 13.5 bar. This is with a race cam with a valve overlap of 110=C2=B0 (32=
0-F grind). Because of the high overlap, the piston has risen a lot before =
the inlet valve is closed, so I did the compression test again, but with a =
valve lash of 2.5mm/0.1&quot; : compression went from 9.5 bar to 14.5 on cy=
l no 1 and from 8 bar to 15 on cyl no 2. With this valve lash, the compress=
ion on the other cylinders went up to 16 - 18.5 bar. Of course, when the en=
gine is running at high rpm, a lot of valve overlap is necessary for best c=
ylinder filling, but I wonder if 110=C2=B0 isn&#39;t too much?? The recomme=
nded valve lash is 0.40mm/0.016&quot; when the rocker ratio is 1.45(0.43mm/=
 with my 1.55 roller rockers). Would it be risky to set the valve lash at s=
ome 0.05mm/0.002&quot; higher?</span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10pt;font-family:verdana,sans-serif">PS : is it common practice to set the=
 valve lash at a couple of mm to perform a compression test, because it see=
ms that the valve lash has a lot of influence on the result when testing a =
race camshaft?</span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-famil=
y:verdana,sans-serif">Marcel</span></div></div></div></div><br>____________=
___________________________________<br><a href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net=
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