Re: [Fot] Doug Still Guides Me...

[Duncan Charlton via Fot <fot@autox.team.net>]

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Bob,

Do you know whether the outsourcing shop was the one in Elgin, TX=3F =C2=A0=
Keith Kubosh, the guy who bought that place, has all the old equipment th=
at Mike used, but I don=E2=80=99t know whether or not he=E2=80=99s learne=
d to use the line-boring machine yet. =C2=A0His welding job takes up most=
 of his time but when I was last there a couple of years ago he was doing=
 some engine work.

Duncan
On Mar 24, 2020, 7:51 AM -0500, Bob Kramer via =46ot <fot=40autox.team.ne=
t>, wrote:
> I did have a sound block that came without bearing caps and a supply of=
 =22almost fit=22 caps. Not wanting to waste a good block I spent the mon=
ey to have it line bored.=C2=A0 I've got a pretty talented machinist here=
 in Austin and he trimmed down the caps before sending it out to get line=
d bored. Worked fine.=C2=A0 Unfortunately the outsourced machine=C2=A0sho=
p that he used for the line bore shut down a few years back.
>
> Bob Kramer
>
>
> > On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 6:47 AM Phil Gott <vfracing=40aol.com> wrote:=

> > > Yes, Bob, as far as I know you are correct, the bearing notches in =
the caps and saddles are always on the same side.
> > > In the TR wet sleeve engine, each cap is unique as to its position,=
 so it should be really hard to mix them up.
> > > Kas is right, however, in that in many engines it is good practice =
to mark each cap as to position and orientation, just to be sure.
> > > I have had a wet sleeve block line bored just to true it up at ABT =
machine in Holliston, Mass. This creates two issues that must be addresse=
d, both due to the slight raising of the crank center line:
> > > 1) the clearance space of the top of the pistons needs to be checke=
d to be sure there is no interference at TDC. Usually not a problem.
> > > 2) more of a problem is that the aluminum insert for the rear main =
seal may interfere with the block. This will become apparent when using t=
he centering tool, and can be addressed by filing down the area of the se=
al where it interferes. Do not file or alter any other surface, as this w=
ill compromise the ability of the seal to function and/or to hold correct=
ly one of the aftermarket rubber seals.=C2=A0 Be careful also not to goug=
e the face of the aluminum seal where it mates with the flat surface of t=
he block. Go slow and be careful. It should all work as intended.
> > > Phil Gott
> > >
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > > On Mar 23, 2020, at 10:36 PM, Bob Kramer via =46ot <fot=40autox.t=
eam.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Don=E2=80=99t all the main bearing caps go in with bearing notche=
s on the same side as the notches in the saddles in the block=3F Or is th=
at just a TR4 thing=3F
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > >
> > > > > On Mar 23, 2020, at 6:59 PM, Enquiries Road & Track via =46ot <=
fot=40autox.team.net> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > firstly, are you 100% sure the caps are correctly fitted both r=
ound the right way and in number order=3F
> > > > >
> > > > > you need to decide if the caps are misaligned across the block =
or if the tunnel is simply oval because=C2=A0the hole in in cap is too fa=
r up or down. this will need a combination of feel and measurement
> > > > >
> > > > > if the alternative=C2=A0caps have a significant step to 1 side,=
 so you will clearly feel a ledge at the mating faces when they are tight=
ened up
> > > > >
> > > > > if the stap is very minor, like a few thousandths=C2=A0of an in=
ch, then the faces of the cap are machined down to create an oval hole, t=
hen it it is align honed
> > > > >
> > > > > if it is really bad, like many tens of thou, then you have to f=
irstly move the cap sideways by machining the register on 1 side and peen=
ing=C2=A0it on the other, and effectively moving it sideways, followed by=
 boring/honing
> > > > >
> > > > > sometimes, the bolts are too neat a fit to allow this and if th=
ats the case, its usually easier to find some other caps or make them
> > > > >
> > > > > if the tunnel is simply=C2=A0an=C2=A0oval because the cap is to=
o far up or down, this is usually easily fixed by facing the cap mating s=
urfaces and reboring the tunnels
> > > > >
> > > > > not all engine machine shop have a line borer...mine did not, s=
o subcontracting the job is not uncommon
> > > > >
> > > > > the end result should be a perfectly round hole with a super fi=
ne hone (cross-hatch) mark on the bearing faces, to ensure=C2=A0perfect b=
earing shell=C2=A0contact
> > > > >
> > > > > =C2=A0Terry
> > > > > Australia
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 1:32 AM Bud Rolofson via =46ot <fot=40=
autox.team.net> wrote:
> > > > > > > Speaking of main caps I bought a block that turned out to n=
ot have the original main caps. The caps on there did not match up with t=
he block but I=E2=80=99ve been unable to find a machine shop that can mac=
hine them so there=E2=80=99s a round hole for the crank. The shop I had d=
o my last block (and they do 427 race engines among others and are well r=
espected) told me that the result would be ovaled out holes (not round) w=
hich obviously is not good.
> > > > > > > Certainly there=E2=80=99s a way to make this work but I hav=
en=E2=80=99t found it. I checked out another block shop but said they sub=
contract line-boring to the the shop that said they couldn=E2=80=99t do i=
t.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Has anyone else encountered this problem=3F I=E2=80=99ve he=
ard that steel mains might be an answer but they=E2=80=99d still have to =
be line-bored to make them match. I hate to ship a block to get this done=
 before I have reassurances that they can make it work but does anyone kn=
ow of that has successfully made main caps match the block=3F Given I=E2=80=
=99m spending a lot of time these days staying home and catching up on ca=
r projects in the shop I figured it would be a good time to start buildin=
g the next engine.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Solutions or recommendations=3F
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > Bud
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Mar 22, 2020, at 9:33 PM, Brad Eells via =46ot <fot=40=
autox.team.net> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Amici,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In typically rookie race engine builder mode with the blo=
ck I selected for rebuild, I pulled the main bearing caps (with my new fa=
ncy DeWalt 20V Impact Wrench) and then couldn't remember which way around=
 they went.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This led to visions of catastrophic failure somewhere dow=
n the road. Yet, I had several other blocks I could flip over and make a =
determination if need be.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I was examining one of the caps when I discovered the fai=
ntest engraving on the surface of each cap:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Eng =232 =46ront =46wd
> > > > > > > > Eng =232 Mid =46wd
> > > > > > > > Eng =232 Rr =46wd
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Doug Brown, my original owner/builder/driver extraordinai=
re had engraved each cap for me to make sure a mistake didn't occur. He r=
otated 3 engines during each season in a quest for Divisional and Nationa=
l Championships.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I guess that is the way a aeronautical/mechanical enginee=
r and very successful=C2=A0racer thinks.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks again Doug=21
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > <IMG=5F8745.jpg>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Brad Eells
> > > > > > > > Chino CA
> > > > > > > > =2372 =46P 1969 Triumph Spitfire Mk3
> > > > > > > > =2335 DP 1962 Triumph TR4
> > > > > > > > 1965 Triumph TR4A IRS...for the road=21
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
=5F=5F=5F
> > > > > > > > fot=40autox.team.net
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > http://www.fot-racing.com
> > > > > > > >
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> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bud Rolofson
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Extreme Parts Racing=C2=A0(more than just a haircut)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 71TR6 CC57365 (Good=C2=A06)
> > > > > > > 71 Spitfire MK IV Race=C2=A0Car =233
> > > > > > > 69 Spitfire MK III (back=C2=A0up =46E engine/dinghy car)
> > > > > > > 93 Minnie Winnie Race=C2=A0Support Vehicle
> > > > > > > 77 Z-50A Hardly=C2=A0Davidson Honda Mini-Trail Bike (Triump=
h Pit=C2=A0Bike)
> > > > > > >
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=5F=5F
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<div dir=3D=22auto=22>Bob,&=23160;
<div dir=3D=22auto=22><br /></div>
<div dir=3D=22auto=22>Do you know whether the outsourcing shop was the on=
e in Elgin, TX=3F &=23160;Keith Kubosh, the guy who bought that place, ha=
s all the old equipment that Mike used, but I don=E2=80=99t know whether =
or not he=E2=80=99s learned to use the line-boring machine yet. &=23160;H=
is welding job takes up most of his time but when I was last there a coup=
le of years ago he was doing some engine work.</div>
</div>
</div>
<div name=3D=22messageSignatureSection=22><br />
<div class=3D=22match=46ont=22>Duncan</div>
</div>
<div name=3D=22messageReplySection=22>On Mar 24, 2020, 7:51 AM -0500, Bob=
 Kramer via =46ot &lt;fot=40autox.team.net&gt;, wrote:<br />
<blockquote type=3D=22cite=22 class=3D=22spark=5Fquote=22 style=3D=22marg=
in: 5px 5px; padding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid =231abc9c;=22>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22>I did have a sound block that came without bearing c=
aps and a supply of =22almost fit=22 caps. Not wanting to waste a good bl=
ock I spent the money to have it line bored.&=23160; I've got a pretty ta=
lented machinist here in Austin and he trimmed down the caps before sendi=
ng it out to get lined bored. Worked fine.&=23160; Unfortunately the outs=
ourced machine&=23160;shop that he used for the line bore shut down a few=
 years back.&=23160; &=23160;
<div><br clear=3D=22all=22 />
<div>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22 class=3D=22gmail=5Fsignature=22 data-smartmail=3D=22=
gmail=5Fsignature=22>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22>Bob Kramer</div>
</div>
</div>
<br /></div>
</div>
<br />
<div class=3D=22gmail=5Fquote=22>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22 class=3D=22gmail=5Fattr=22>On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 6=
:47 AM Phil Gott &lt;<a href=3D=22mailto:vfracing=40aol.com=22>vfracing=40=
aol.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br /></div>
<blockquote class=3D=22gmail=5Fquote spark=5Fquote=22 style=3D=22margin: =
5px 5px; padding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid =23e67e22;=22>
<div dir=3D=22auto=22>Yes, Bob, as far as I know you are correct, the bea=
ring notches in the caps and saddles are always on the same side.&=23160;=

<div>In the TR wet sleeve engine, each cap is unique as to its position, =
so it should be really hard to mix them up.</div>
<div>Kas is right, however, in that in many engines it is good practice t=
o mark each cap as to position and orientation, just to be sure.</div>
<div>I have had a wet sleeve block line bored just to true it up at ABT m=
achine in Holliston, Mass. This creates two issues that must be addressed=
, both due to the slight raising of the crank center line:</div>
<div>1) the clearance space of the top of the pistons needs to be checked=
 to be sure there is no interference at TDC. Usually not a problem.</div>=

<div>2) more of a problem is that the aluminum insert for the rear main s=
eal may interfere with the block. This will become apparent when using th=
e centering tool, and can be addressed by filing down the area of the sea=
l where it interferes. Do not file or alter any other surface, as this wi=
ll compromise the ability of the seal to function and/or to hold correctl=
y one of the aftermarket rubber seals.&=23160; Be careful also not to gou=
ge the face of the aluminum seal where it mates with the flat surface of =
the block. Go slow and be careful. It should all work as intended.</div>
<div>Phil Gott</div>
<div><br />
<br />
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22>Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22><br />
<blockquote type=3D=22cite=22 class=3D=22spark=5Fquote=22 style=3D=22marg=
in: 5px 5px; padding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid =233498db;=22>On=
 Mar 23, 2020, at 10:36 PM, Bob Kramer via =46ot &lt;<a href=3D=22mailto:=
fot=40autox.team.net=22 target=3D=22=5Fblank=22>fot=40autox.team.net</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br />
<br /></blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D=22cite=22 class=3D=22spark=5Fquote=22 style=3D=22marg=
in: 5px 5px; padding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid =233498db;=22>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22>=EF=BB=BFDon=E2=80=99t all the main bearing caps go =
in with bearing notches on the same side as the notches in the saddles in=
 the block=3F Or is that just a TR4 thing=3F<br />
<br />
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22>Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22><br />
<blockquote type=3D=22cite=22 class=3D=22spark=5Fquote=22 style=3D=22marg=
in: 5px 5px; padding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid =23d35400;=22>On=
 Mar 23, 2020, at 6:59 PM, Enquiries Road &amp; Track via =46ot &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D=22mailto:fot=40autox.team.net=22 target=3D=22=5Fblank=22>fot=40auto=
x.team.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br />
<br /></blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D=22cite=22 class=3D=22spark=5Fquote=22 style=3D=22marg=
in: 5px 5px; padding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid =23d35400;=22>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22>=EF=BB=BF
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22>firstly, are you 100% sure the caps are correctly fi=
tted both round the right way and in number order=3F
<div><br /></div>
<div>you need to decide if the caps are misaligned across the block or if=
 the tunnel is simply oval because&=23160;the hole in in cap is too far u=
p or down. this will need a combination of feel and measurement<br />
<div><br /></div>
<div>
<div>if the alternative&=23160;caps have a significant step to 1 side, so=
 you will clearly feel a ledge at the mating faces when they are tightene=
d up<br /></div>
<div>
<div><br /></div>
<div>if the stap is very minor, like a few thousandths&=23160;of an inch,=
 then the faces of the cap are machined down to create an oval hole, then=
 it it is align honed</div>
<div><br /></div>
<div>if it is really bad, like many tens of thou, then you have to firstl=
y move the cap sideways by machining the register on 1 side and peening&=23=
160;it on the other, and effectively moving it sideways, followed by bori=
ng/honing</div>
<div><br /></div>
<div>sometimes, the bolts are too neat a fit to allow this and if thats t=
he case, its usually easier to find some other caps or make them</div>
<div><br /></div>
<div>if the tunnel is simply&=23160;an&=23160;oval because the cap is too=
 far up or down, this is usually easily fixed by facing the cap mating su=
rfaces and reboring the tunnels</div>
<div><br /></div>
<div>not all engine machine shop have a line borer...mine did not, so sub=
contracting the job is not uncommon</div>
<div><br /></div>
<div>the end result should be a perfectly round hole with a super fine ho=
ne (cross-hatch) mark on the bearing faces, to ensure&=23160;perfect bear=
ing shell&=23160;contact</div>
<div><br /></div>
<div>&=23160;Terry</div>
<div>Australia</div>
<div><br /></div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22>
<div>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22>
<div>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22>
<div>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22>
<div>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22>
<div>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22>
<div><br /></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br /></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br />
<div class=3D=22gmail=5Fquote=22>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22 class=3D=22gmail=5Fattr=22>On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 1=
:32 AM Bud Rolofson via =46ot &lt;<a href=3D=22mailto:fot=40autox.team.ne=
t=22 target=3D=22=5Fblank=22>fot=40autox.team.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br /></d=
iv>
<blockquote class=3D=22gmail=5Fquote spark=5Fquote=22 style=3D=22margin: =
5px 5px; padding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid =2334495e;=22>
<div>Speaking of main caps I bought a block that turned out to not have t=
he original main caps. The caps on there did not match up with the block =
but I=E2=80=99ve been unable to find a machine shop that can machine them=
 so there=E2=80=99s a round hole for the crank. The shop I had do my last=
 block (and they do 427 race engines among others and are well respected)=
 told me that the result would be ovaled out holes (not round) which obvi=
ously is not good.
<div>Certainly there=E2=80=99s a way to make this work but I haven=E2=80=99=
t found it. I checked out another block shop but said they subcontract li=
ne-boring to the the shop that said they couldn=E2=80=99t do it.&=23160;<=
/div>
<div><br /></div>
<div>Has anyone else encountered this problem=3F I=E2=80=99ve heard that =
steel mains might be an answer but they=E2=80=99d still have to be line-b=
ored to make them match. I hate to ship a block to get this done before I=
 have reassurances that they can make it work but does anyone know of tha=
t has successfully made main caps match the block=3F Given I=E2=80=99m sp=
ending a lot of time these days staying home and catching up on car proje=
cts in the shop I figured it would be a good time to start building the n=
ext engine.</div>
<div><br /></div>
<div>Solutions or recommendations=3F</div>
<div><br /></div>
<div>Thanks</div>
<div>Bud<br />
<div><br /></div>
<div>&=23160;<br />
<div>
<blockquote type=3D=22cite=22 class=3D=22spark=5Fquote=22 style=3D=22marg=
in: 5px 5px; padding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid =232ecc71;=22>
<div>On Mar 22, 2020, at 9:33 PM, Brad Eells via =46ot &lt;<a href=3D=22m=
ailto:fot=40autox.team.net=22 target=3D=22=5Fblank=22>fot=40autox.team.ne=
t</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br />
<div>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22>Amici,
<div><br /></div>
<div>In typically rookie race engine builder mode with the block I select=
ed for rebuild, I pulled the main bearing caps (with my new fancy DeWalt =
20V Impact Wrench) and then couldn't remember which way around they went.=
&=23160;</div>
<div><br /></div>
<div>This led to visions of catastrophic failure somewhere down the road.=
 Yet, I had several other blocks I could flip over and make a determinati=
on if need be.</div>
<div><br /></div>
<div>I was examining one of the caps when I discovered the faintest engra=
ving on the surface of each cap:<br />
<br />
Eng =232 =46ront =46wd</div>
<div>Eng =232 Mid =46wd</div>
<div>Eng =232 Rr =46wd</div>
<div><br /></div>
<div>Doug Brown, my original owner/builder/driver extraordinaire had engr=
aved each cap for me to make sure a mistake didn't occur. He rotated 3 en=
gines during each season in a quest for Divisional and National Champions=
hips.</div>
<div><br /></div>
<div>I guess that is the way a aeronautical/mechanical engineer and very =
successful&=23160;racer thinks.</div>
<div><br /></div>
<div>Thanks again Doug=21</div>
<div><br /></div>
<div>
<div><span id=3D=22gmail-m=5F5999784650031042352gmail-m=5F-34229842209445=
76185gmail-m=5F2395422064748517556cid:ii=5Fk83wus460=22>&lt;IMG=5F8745.jp=
g&gt;</span><br /></div>
<div><br /></div>
<div>Cheers,</div>
<div><br /></div>
<div><br /></div>
<div>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22>
<div>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22>
<div>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22>
<div dir=3D=22ltr=22>
<div>
<div style=3D=22font-size:12.8px=22><b><font>Brad Eells</font></b></div>
<div style=3D=22font-size:12.8px=22><b><font>Chino CA</font></b></div>
<div style=3D=22font-size:12.8px=22><b><font>=2372 =46P 1969 Triumph Spit=
fire Mk3</font></b></div>
<div style=3D=22font-size:12.8px=22><b><font>=2335 DP 1962 Triumph TR4</f=
ont></b></div>
<div style=3D=22font-size:12.8px=22><b><font>1965 Triumph TR4A IRS...for =
the road=21</font></b><br /></div>
</div>
<div style=3D=22font-size:12.8px=22><b><font><img width=3D=2296=22 height=
=3D=2294=22 /><br /></font></b></div>
<div><br /></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F<br />
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</blockquote>
</div>
<br />
<div>Bud Rolofson<br />
<br />
Extreme Parts Racing&=23160;(more than just a haircut)<br />
<br />
71TR6 CC57365 (Good&=23160;6)<br />
71 Spitfire MK IV Race&=23160;Car =233<br />
69 Spitfire MK III (back&=23160;up =46E engine/dinghy car)<br />
93 Minnie Winnie Race&=23160;Support Vehicle&=23160;<br />
77 Z-50A Hardly&=23160;Davidson Honda Mini-Trail Bike (Triumph Pit&=23160=
;Bike)</div>
<br /></div>
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=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F<br />
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