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Dave:
I do have poly bushings and that could add to it. =20
Jim=20
> On Dec 6, 2020, at 7:12 PM, dave <dave@ranteer.com> wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF
> I=E2=80=99m going to totally disagree. I have the uprated shocks from Wor=
ldwide in 2 cars and totally recommend it. I do drive hard so maybe I=E2=80=
=99m a bit biased. The rough ride will come more from the bushings than the=
uprated shocks. IMHO the standard valving is too soft.
> =20
> From: Triumphs <triumphs-bounces@autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Jim Hennings=
en
> Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2020 2:00 PM
> To: 'Brian Kemp' <bk13@earthlink.net>; 'Will Daehler' <will.daehler@gmail.=
com>; triumphs@autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [TR] TR4 Investigating replacing the Armstrong lever shocks w=
ith telescopic rear shock conversions
> =20
> I=E2=80=99ve done the tube shock and won=E2=80=99t do again for the reason=
s in the pictures. I have rebuilt levers from Worldwide Auto in three of my=
TRs and they are great. I even have the uprated. I DO NOT recommend them f=
or a TR4 as they are really hard. Rides like a buck board with the leaf spr=
ings. I am switching out to a stock rebuild. Jane at Worldwide mentioned on=
ly get uprated if you are racing.=20
> Cheers,
> Jim Henningsen
> Ocala FL
> 61 3A
> 62 4
> 67 4A
> 75 6
> 81 8
> =20
> From: Triumphs <triumphs-bounces@autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Brian Kemp
> Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2020 1:50 PM
> To: Will Daehler <will.daehler@gmail.com>; triumphs@autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [TR] TR4 Investigating replacing the Armstrong lever shocks w=
ith telescopic rear shock conversions
> =20
> Will - I'm not as familiar with the solid axle of the TR4, so this may or m=
ay not be relevant to your situation. =20
>=20
> There are at least three styles of tube shock conversions for the TR6 and I=
assume the 4A. The one with three triangular brackets that go through the b=
ody (likely the one you looked at from Moss), A bracket that bolts to the bo=
dy with no frame attachment, and a single plate bracket that bolts to the le=
ver shock mount.
>=20
> Also watch for feedback on people that just get the lever shocks rebuilt w=
ith a heavy duty rebuild. If I was starting over, that is probably what I w=
ould do.
>=20
> A sample of the three plate design at Moss is 670-128 - see https://mossmo=
tors.com/rear-tube-shock-conversion-kits - the Monroe shock version for the 4=
A is available. They have an article at http://www.mossmotoring.com/tr6-tub=
e-shock-conversion/ It looks like a sturdy design, but takes significant ef=
fort to install. Read the instructions from their website.
>=20
> I do not recommend the bracket that just bolts to the body without a frame=
attachments.
>=20
> I used the single plate version because it was much easier, but this desig=
n leads to flexing of the frame cross member and cracking of the frame, incl=
uding mine. See the 0091, 2217, and 2218 images attached of other people's c=
ars discovered at a local club tech clinic. If you have this design, I reco=
mmend you check the frame cross member regularly. If you have the rear spri=
ng out for any reason, run the trailing arm through its full range of motion=
and you will probably see the top of the shock mount move front to rear.
>=20
> After having my frame cracks welded, I built a new version of the single p=
late design available from some vendors. I extended the top mount for the s=
hock back about two inches and added two braces. One is a length of 1" angl=
e iron that goes between the two shock mounts near the top of the bracket, j=
ust below the body to side to side stability. The other is the more importa=
nt addition and goes from the top of the shock bracket rearward to the frame=
at about a 45 deg angle. This one stops any front to rear motion of the sh=
ock bracket. Unfortunately the car isn't easily accessible right now and I c=
an't find my pictures.
>=20
> Below is an item I wrote 20 years ago or so. The 5-6025 kit is the single=
plate design that in my opinion needs at least the added bracket from the t=
op of the shock mount to the frame.
>=20
>=20
> Tube Shock Conversion Notes
>=20
> Notes on my TR6 tube shock conversion:
> > Would like to know if anybody on the list has any knowledge or experienc=
e with
> > the shock conversion kit that v.b. sells as part # 5-6025. It is listed=
on
> > page 11 in the summer catalog.......
>=20
> I put similar brackets on my car. They are the easiest design to fit, tak=
ing about 30 minutes to install. I purchased my brackets from someone who m=
ade them for his car for $40. I bought the shocks from Pep Boys for $12.95 e=
ach. The VB shocks must be pretty good to command the $189 price tag. My d=
riving can often be aggressive, especially at autocross events (2nd place in=
class at the Moss festival and first overall at Triumphest in 1998). The c=
heap shock seem to work fine for me in the rear, though I may just not know a=
ny better. The PO put Koni's on the front.
>=20
> Installation made a tremendous improvement in my car, but that's because m=
y lever shocks were dead. I've heard lots of good things about the heavy du=
ty rebuilds to the lever shocks. Doing it again, I'd give this serious thou=
ght.
>=20
> Disadvantages of this design:
> - When the car is in the air, the limit stop for the trailing arm travel i=
s the tube shock. I had a shock fail after only a year (exchanged for free r=
eplacement). I think the other one may also need replacement, as there's oi=
l on the tube. This tension is transferred through the shock to the bracket=
, at a slight angle, torquing the frame cross member that holds the shocks a=
nd rear differential mounts. I mention this because I just discovered sever=
al broken welds including both rear differential mounts and the crossemember=
to frame connection near the right shock mount. The car had the differenti=
al reinforcing brackets installed for the DPO. I don't know if the shock co=
nversion caused this, but I think it aggravated the problem. (Any comments o=
n this from others?)
>=20
> - You are limited in tire width to 205 series tires, which may rub the bra=
cket if you have lots of camber or weak springs.
>=20
> Safety considerations:
> - The Gabrial shocks I purchased only have a single nut on each end of the=
shock. The guy I got the brackets through had a shock come undone. Your sh=
ocks should be double nutted. I used a nylocs because I had a box of them, b=
ut any nut should work.
>=20
> - Check the tires and brackets for rubbing. I have a little bit on the ri=
ght side recently, but nothing I'm concerned about. I can't see any indicat=
ion on the tire, just some rubber dust on the bracket. I run 205/65 tires a=
nd will adjust the camber on the right tire.
>=20
> If your into welding, you can make your own brackets looking at the pictur=
e. Drop me an e-mail and I'll look up the shock number again. It's off 50'=
s Studebakers and Cadillacs if I remember correctly.
>=20
> The Moss kit is an effort to install. It has three triangular brackets pe=
r side. One to the standard shock mount, the second inside the body by the f=
uel tank, and the third in the wheel well area. The first step in the instr=
uctions was to remove the fuel tank.
>=20
> I'd always avoid a shock that only bolts to the body. The dampening force=
s need to go to the frame.
>=20
> Brian
>=20
> =20
>=20
> On 12/6/2020 8:34 AM, Will Daehler wrote:
> When going over bumps in my TR4 I have quite a rattle from the right rear a=
rea of my car. I have poked around by the axle, and thought I have fixed th=
e problem a couple of times. I have replaced the springs and refilled the A=
rmstrong shocks. I have poked around. While looking through my Moss catalog=
I noticed the kits for replacing the Armstrong shocks with these brackets t=
hat you could mount shock absorbers to. But the kits are NLS. No Longer Sup=
plied. I was wondering why the kits were discontinued. It could have been=
that they caused damage to the frame, or just didn=E2=80=99t work. I was h=
oping somebody had any first-hand knowledge or experience on this topic that=
they could discuss. I wonder if the racing group all have custom and propri=
etary set ups.
> =20
> Will Daehler
> 63 TR4 =20
> =20
>=20
> ** triumphs@autox.team.net **
> =20
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs http://www.team.net/archi=
ve
> =20
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/bk13@ea=
rthlink.net
> =20
> ** triumphs@autox.team.net **
>=20
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs http://www.team.net/archi=
ve
>=20
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/trguy75=
@gmail.com
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr">Dave:</div><div dir=3D"ltr=
">I do have poly bushings and that could add to it. </div><div dir=3D"=
ltr">Jim </div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On Dec 6,=
2020, at 7:12 PM, dave <dave@ranteer.com> wrote:<br><br></blockquote>=
</div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<meta http-equiv=3D=
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ator" content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"><style><!--
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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal">I=E2=80=99m going to totally disagree. I have the uprated sho=
cks from Worldwide in 2 cars and totally recommend it. I do drive hard=
so maybe I=E2=80=99m a bit biased. The rough ride will come more from=
the bushings than the uprated shocks. IMHO the standard valving is to=
o soft.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div s=
tyle=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in=
"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Triumphs <triumphs-bounces@autox.te=
am.net> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jim Henningsen<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, Decemb=
er 6, 2020 2:00 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'Brian Kemp' <bk13@earthlink.net>; 'W=
ill Daehler' <will.daehler@gmail.com>; triumphs@autox.team.net<br><b>S=
ubject:</b> Re: [TR] TR4 Investigating replacing the Armstrong lever shocks w=
ith telescopic rear shock conversions<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I=E2=80=99ve done the=
tube shock and won=E2=80=99t do again for the reasons in the pictures. =
; I have rebuilt levers from Worldwide Auto in three of my TRs and they are g=
reat. I even have the uprated. I DO NOT recommend them for a TR4=
as they are really hard. Rides like a buck board with the leaf spring=
s. I am switching out to a stock rebuild. Jane at Worldwide mentioned o=
nly get uprated if you are racing. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jim Henningsen<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ocala FL<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">61 3A<=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">62 4<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l">67 4A<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">75 6<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal">81 8 <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>=
<div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0=
in 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Triumphs <<a href=3D"mail=
to:triumphs-bounces@autox.team.net">triumphs-bounces@autox.team.net</a>> <=
b>On Behalf Of </b>Brian Kemp<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 06, 2020 1:50=
PM<br><b>To:</b> Will Daehler <<a href=3D"mailto:will.daehler@gmail.com"=
>will.daehler@gmail.com</a>>; <a href=3D"mailto:triumphs@autox.team.net";>=
triumphs@autox.team.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [TR] TR4 Investigating re=
placing the Armstrong lever shocks with telescopic rear shock conversions<o:=
p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Will - I'm not as familiar wit=
h the solid axle of the TR4, so this may or may not be relevant to your situ=
ation. <br><br>There are at least three styles of tube shock conversio=
ns for the TR6 and I assume the 4A. The one with three triangular brac=
kets that go through the body (likely the one you looked at from Moss), A br=
acket that bolts to the body with no frame attachment, and a single plate br=
acket that bolts to the lever shock mount.<br><br>Also watch for feedback on=
people that just get the lever shocks rebuilt with a heavy duty rebuild.&nb=
sp; If I was starting over, that is probably what I would do.<br><br>A sampl=
e of the three plate design at Moss is 670-128 - see <a href=3D"https://moss=
motors.com/rear-tube-shock-conversion-kits">https://mossmotors.com/rear-tube=
-shock-conversion-kits</a> - the Monroe shock version for the 4A is availabl=
e. They have an article at <a href=3D"http://www.mossmotoring.com/tr6-=
tube-shock-conversion/">http://www.mossmotoring.com/tr6-tube-shock-conversio=
n/</a> It looks like a sturdy design, but takes significant effort to i=
nstall. Read the instructions from their website.<br><br>I do not reco=
mmend the bracket that just bolts to the body without a frame attachments.<b=
r><br>I used the single plate version because it was much easier, but this d=
esign leads to flexing of the frame cross member and cracking of the frame, i=
ncluding mine. See the 0091, 2217, and 2218 images attached of other p=
eople's cars discovered at a local club tech clinic. If you have this d=
esign, I recommend you check the frame cross member regularly. If you h=
ave the rear spring out for any reason, run the trailing arm through its ful=
l range of motion and you will probably see the top of the shock mount move f=
ront to rear.<br><br>After having my frame cracks welded, I built a new vers=
ion of the single plate design available from some vendors. I extended=
the top mount for the shock back about two inches and added two braces.&nbs=
p; One is a length of 1" angle iron that goes between the two shock mounts n=
ear the top of the bracket, just below the body to side to side stability.&n=
bsp; The other is the more important addition and goes from the top of the s=
hock bracket rearward to the frame at about a 45 deg angle. This one s=
tops any front to rear motion of the shock bracket. Unfortunately the c=
ar isn't easily accessible right now and I can't find my pictures.<br><br>Be=
low is an item I wrote 20 years ago or so. The 5-6025 kit is the singl=
e plate design that in my opinion needs at least the added bracket from the t=
op of the shock mount to the frame.<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><h2 align=3D"cente=
r" style=3D"text-align:center"><span style=3D"color:black">Tube Shock Conver=
sion Notes<o:p></o:p></span></h2><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color=
:black">Notes on my TR6 tube shock conversion:</span> <o:p></o:p></p><p><spa=
n style=3D"color:black">> Would like to know if anybody on the list has a=
ny knowledge or experience with<br>> the shock conversion kit that v.b. s=
ells as part # 5-6025. It is listed on<br>> page 11 in the summer c=
atalog.......<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style=3D"normal;font-variant-caps: nor=
mal;orphans: 2;text-align:start;widows: 2;-webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px;text-decoration-thickness: initial;text-decoration-style:
initial;text-decoration-color: initial;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D=
"color:black">I put similar brackets on my car. They are the easiest d=
esign to fit, taking about 30 minutes to install. I purchased my brack=
ets from someone who made them for his car for $40. I bought the shock=
s from Pep Boys for $12.95 each. The VB shocks must be pretty good to c=
ommand the $189 price tag. My driving can often be aggressive, especia=
lly at autocross events (2nd place in class at the Moss festival and first o=
verall at Triumphest in 1998). The cheap shock seem to work fine for m=
e in the rear, though I may just not know any better. The PO put Koni'=
s on the front.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style=3D"normal;font-variant-caps: n=
ormal;orphans: 2;text-align:start;widows: 2;-webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px;text-decoration-thickness: initial;text-decoration-style:
initial;text-decoration-color: initial;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D=
"color:black">Installation made a tremendous improvement in my car, but that=
's because my lever shocks were dead. I've heard lots of good things a=
bout the heavy duty rebuilds to the lever shocks. Doing it again, I'd g=
ive this serious thought.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style=3D"normal;font-varia=
nt-caps: normal;orphans: 2;text-align:start;widows: 2;-webkit-text-stroke-wi=
dth:
0px;text-decoration-thickness: initial;text-decoration-style:
initial;text-decoration-color: initial;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D=
"color:black">Disadvantages of this design:<br>- When the car is in the air,=
the limit stop for the trailing arm travel is the tube shock. I had a=
shock fail after only a year (exchanged for free replacement). I thin=
k the other one may also need replacement, as there's oil on the tube. =
This tension is transferred through the shock to the bracket, at a slight a=
ngle, torquing the frame cross member that holds the shocks and rear differe=
ntial mounts. I mention this because I just discovered several broken w=
elds including both rear differential mounts and the crossemember to frame c=
onnection near the right shock mount. The car had the differential rei=
nforcing brackets installed for the DPO. I don't know if the shock con=
version caused this, but I think it aggravated the problem. (Any comme=
nts on this from others?)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style=3D"normal;font-varia=
nt-caps: normal;orphans: 2;text-align:start;widows: 2;-webkit-text-stroke-wi=
dth:
0px;text-decoration-thickness: initial;text-decoration-style:
initial;text-decoration-color: initial;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D=
"color:black">- You are limited in tire width to 205 series tires, which may=
rub the bracket if you have lots of camber or weak springs.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p style=3D"normal;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: 2;text-align:sta=
rt;widows: 2;-webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px;text-decoration-thickness: initial;text-decoration-style:
initial;text-decoration-color: initial;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D=
"color:black">Safety considerations:<br>- The Gabrial shocks I purchased onl=
y have a single nut on each end of the shock. The guy I got the brackets thr=
ough had a shock come undone. Your shocks should be double nutted.&nbs=
p; I used a nylocs because I had a box of them, but any nut should work.<o:p=
></o:p></span></p><p style=3D"normal;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: 2;te=
xt-align:start;widows: 2;-webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px;text-decoration-thickness: initial;text-decoration-style:
initial;text-decoration-color: initial;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D=
"color:black">- Check the tires and brackets for rubbing. I have a lit=
tle bit on the right side recently, but nothing I'm concerned about. I=
can't see any indication on the tire, just some rubber dust on the bracket.=
I run 205/65 tires and will adjust the camber on the right tire.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p><p style=3D"normal;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: 2;tex=
t-align:start;widows: 2;-webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px;text-decoration-thickness: initial;text-decoration-style:
initial;text-decoration-color: initial;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D=
"color:black">If your into welding, you can make your own brackets looking a=
t the picture. Drop me an e-mail and I'll look up the shock number aga=
in. It's off 50's Studebakers and Cadillacs if I remember correctly.<o=
:p></o:p></span></p><p style=3D"normal;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: 2;=
text-align:start;widows: 2;-webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px;text-decoration-thickness: initial;text-decoration-style:
initial;text-decoration-color: initial;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D=
"color:black">The Moss kit is an effort to install. It has three trian=
gular brackets per side. One to the standard shock mount, the second i=
nside the body by the fuel tank, and the third in the wheel well area. =
The first step in the instructions was to remove the fuel tank.<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p><p style=3D"normal;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: 2;text-align=
:start;widows: 2;-webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px;text-decoration-thickness: initial;text-decoration-style:
initial;text-decoration-color: initial;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D=
"color:black">I'd always avoid a shock that only bolts to the body. Th=
e dampening forces need to go to the frame.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style=3D=
"normal;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: 2;text-align:start;widows: 2;-web=
kit-text-stroke-width:
0px;text-decoration-thickness: initial;text-decoration-style:
initial;text-decoration-color: initial;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D=
"color:black">Brian<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 12/6/=
2020 8:34 AM, Will Daehler wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D"m=
argin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">When going over b=
umps in my TR4 I have quite a rattle from the right rear area of my car.&nbs=
p; I have poked around by the axle, and thought I have fixed the problem a c=
ouple of times. I have replaced the springs and refilled the Armstrong=
shocks. I have poked around. While looking through my Moss catalog I n=
oticed the kits for replacing the Armstrong shocks with these brackets that y=
ou could mount shock absorbers to. But the kits are NLS. No Longer Sup=
plied. I was wondering why the kits were discontinued. It c=
ould have been that they caused damage to the frame, or just didn=E2=80=99t w=
ork. I was hoping somebody had any first-hand knowledge or experience o=
n this topic that they could discuss. I wonder if the racing group all have c=
ustom and proprietary set ups.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Will Daehler<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"M=
soNormal">63 TR4 <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin=
-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p><pre>** <a href=3D"mailto:triumphs@auto=
x.team.net">triumphs@autox.team.net</a> **<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> <=
/o:p></pre><pre>Donate: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html";>http://w=
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www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs">http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs</a>&=
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></pre></blockquote><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><span>=
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