To be clear, I didn't take offense at Bill Tobin's comment and
subsequent discussion.? I'm a big boy and can take some ribbing. But,
the subject has come up enough times with some insinuation of
"illegality" that I wanted to make clear that to ME, it's not cheating
to run a Ford 8" rear axle.? It's self preservation.? If someone thinks
it's cheating / illegal, they are entitled to their opinion and I'm
unlikely to change their mind.
I did replace the fiberglass parts that came on my race car with steel
parts because running the fiberglass felt like cheating to me.? But I
don't give the fellow competitors with fiberglass or carbon fiber parts
grief - I'm just happy they are at the track.
You can pick virtually any part of the car (remember front brakes?) and
have the "oh my god, that's ILLEGAL" discussion.? Not everyone will
agree with you.? That's fine - if everyone agreed with me, the world
would be a twisted place.? Maybe a better place, but I'm not going to
bank on that.
Personally, I find it more interesting to discuss what works and what
doesn't on our cars.
I hope everyone has a great racing season and I hope to have the
opportunity to race you hard but clean.
Regards, Tony
On 3/10/2018 10:58 AM, Kas Kastner wrote:
> There are times when you wish you had just shut up and let the thread
> pass you by.? I have just had one of those times.? It was not my
> intent to cast any aspersions but just to tell how it was back when.
> It was a different world. If you wanted to make a phone call you
> needed a nickle but a phone box was on every corner and gasoline was
> 28 cents a gallon and it was 100 octane.? So maybe I should have
> commented on that instead.
>
> Certainly if you adhere to the old rules the field would seen? be down
> to three or four cars and they might not make it to the end of a
> race.? I have no complaint about the present manner of preparation or
> driving either.? Have a good time and use what ever is needed to get
> to the end.
>
> *Never be beaten by equipment.*
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 9, 2018 at 11:18 PM, Tony Drews via Fot
>
> Bill, I've really tried, but I can't help but respond to being
> called out in this one.? I know you said it doesn't matter to you,
> lets just race - and that's my feeling too.
>
> Not sure how a brake question turned into the annual "what is
> vintage" debate - seems late in the season for it this time...
>
> But...? For the record, it's a Ford 8" rear end, not a 9".?
> Remember when we used to break axles and roll our cars?? I do,
> very vividly.? The memory of the pavement whizzing by my left ear
> as I was sliding on the drivers door before the car started to
> barrel roll is indelibly printed in my memory.? Before the
> "southwick" axle conversion (which uses Ford 8" rear axle axles by
> the way), the fix for this was to put a Ford 8" or a Dana rear
> axle in the car instead of the stock unit.? It was a SAFETY
> change, not a performance improvement.? That's what the prior
> owner did to my car - put in a Ford 8" so it wouldn't roll.? It
> weighs more than a Triumph axle, and has roughly the same ratios
> available as a Triumph unit.? To switch to a Triumph axle would
> cost enough I'd need to take at least half a season off of racing,
> probably a full season.? Afterwards, my car would be FASTER
> because it would weigh LESS.? Is the Ford axle legal?? Probably
> not, now that the Southwick conversion is accepted by every
> vintage organization in the US for safety reasons.? Is it worth
> taking a year off of racing to put the "correct" part there?? I
> say - no, lets race instead.
>
> A strict reading of the axle housing must be stock rule would also
> prohibit the Southwick conversion and we're back to the cars
> destroying themselves.? That seems counterproductive to me, but
> I'm not a purist.? :)
>
> Billet cranks?? Carillo rods?? I don't think the '62 GCR allowed
> those.? Certainly not allowed when we ran SCCA in the early 70's.?
> Many of us run those now because the stock stuff breaks and saws
> your engine in half.? However, THOSE DO provide a possible
> performance advantage over a strict reading of the rules because
> we can run higher RPM's semi-reliably.? Good stock stuff is hard
> to come by and we do what we have to in order to keep our awesome
> VINTAGE Triumph's on the track - I figure that's most of our
> justification for those parts.
>
> Uncle jack's car (Dad) was extremely legal, and when we raced each
> other our cars were virtually identical in performance.? So if I'm
> cheating to be faster I must be doing a bad job of it.
>
> To me, parts substitution that keeps our cars running is in a very
> gray area that some consider "cheating" and others consider "just
> keeping it running".? The trans replacement falls under that
> category.? I'm aware of one vintage organization that's taken a
> hard line on transmissions - Bill, yours would be illegal there.?
> And as a result guys running GT-6's are pretty much screwed.? I
> don't know why the organization would rather see a competitor
> replace a tranny every race weekend rather than have them out on
> the track competing.
>
> I'm just glad that I get to do this as often as I can afford, and
> get to hang with a bunch of really neat people.
>
> I could write another book on front brakes (the original topic),
> one on various engine parts, carburetors, transmissions.? I
> already wrote the one on axles (above).
>
> I'd rather folks not be terribly nit-picky about this stuff and
> just appreciate the fact that we can muster up enough Triumphs at
> an event that the organizers WANT us there and will give us a race
> to ourselves.
>
> Regards, Tony Drews
>
>
> On 3/9/2018 8:06 AM, Bill Tobin via Fot wrote:
>> Bill, if all the cheaters in vintage were black flagged, half the
>> field wouldn't finish! Cheaters is a harsh word; non-compliant
>> sounds better.
>> I know of guys with mid-50's Corvettes, and one T Bird,?who run
>> big disc brakes, not the original drums. One of whom runs a
>> vintage organization!!!!!!
>> Also, I like Tony but a 9 inch Ford diff in a TR4? All vintage
>> rules say the diff housing has to be stock.
>> I also like Sam, who's given me a lot of advice over the years,
>> but is his car truely vintage legal? Frankly, I don't care.
>> This will probably get me blackballed, but....
>> I also don't give a hoot what you run or how legal it is or
>> isn't. Just go out and have fun.
>> I've gotten 1 (one) medal in 11 years of vintage racing; not a
>> very successful effort, you might say. (so would I!). But I've
>> had an 'effen blast! And met a bunch of great people. And did
>> what I set out to do.
>> OK, I wrote this last night and thought I'd sleep on it. After
>> reading the comment about Formula Libra, I guess other people
>> feel as I do.
>> Were all the cars running today raced "back in the day" or were
>> they built to go vintage racing today?
>> Ever see a tech inspector crawl under your car and check to see
>> if the drain plugs were safety wired? Or check brakes or diffs?
>> Full disclosure: I run a Celica 5 speed, legal according to the
>> rules. Hitachi carbs (the Japs took SU's and improved them).
>> I don't like cheaters. I help with the Erie Marathon where 43% or
>> our finishers qualified for the Boston Marathon, the goal of
>> every good runner. The last couple years we ferreted out 3
>> cheaters. They will never, ever be allowed into the Boston
>> Marathon. That's why I like running, kind of a pure sport where
>> technology doesn't help you much.
>> OK, end of rant.
>> Hang loose. (I'm reading Brian Wilson's book, so I thought a
>> surfing term would be ok!)
>> Bill
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 08, 2018 9:59 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Fot] Has anybody ran these new brake calipers?
>>
>> Good for SVRA. If I were the Vintage Grand Poo Pah, I would
>> take a note of tire cheaters on the False Grid, and then
>> bring em in with a Meat Ball Flag after one lap in the
>> Feature Race.
>>
>> Bill Dentinger
>>
>> PS Three sets of tires needed.? One for qualifying...one for
>> the feature race...and a special set for Tech. That latter
>> set can be experienced, but must have a minimum tread depth.
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Mar 8, 2018, at 2:08 PM, John Styduhar via Fot
>>
>>> The only item that SVRA regularly checks is tires from my
>>> experience.? And they do that at each gridding.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 2:49 PM, Paul Ricco via Fot
>>>
>>> We have not had issues with stock calipers.? We run Hawk
>>> or Carbotech brake pads and good brake fluid.? We do
>>> bleed the brakes regularly and all seems to be working
>>> good.
>>>
>>> It would be nice to get the benefit of less unsprung
>>> weight on the front suspension by switching to aluminum.
>>> However, I do not know of any vintage organization that
>>> really allows it by their rules.? We all know that that
>>> do not get enforced on a regular basis. However, I do
>>> think SVRA has made a great effort to get people to use
>>> a stock type caliper at their events.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Mar 8, 2018, at 11:26 AM, Chris Marx via Fot
>>>>
>>>> I?m still using the original brakes the car came with.
>>>> I?ve put in some nice brake pads and that is working
>>>> well for me.
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Chris
>>>> *Von:*Fot <fot-bounces at autox.team.net
>>>> von*DAVE HOGYE via Fot
>>>> *Gesendet:*Donnerstag, 8. M?rz 2018 17:28
>>>> *Cc:*Friends of Triumph' Triumph <fot at autox.team.net
>>>> *Betreff:*Re: [Fot] Has anybody ran these new brake
>>>> calipers?
>>>> Good call, Scott.? The Wilwood calipers are aluminum,
>>>> but otherwise look very similar to the the P or PB
>>>> calipers.
>>>> DH
>>>>> On March 8, 2018 at 8:21 AM Scott Janzen
>>>>>
>>>>> good to check your club rules first though, if
>>>>> enforced.? VRG says you need to use the original
>>>>> equipment, and SVRA says
>>>>> Alternate calipers or wheel cylinders must be of the
>>>>> same material, design and number of pistons as the
>>>>> original component. There must be no increase in the
>>>>> frictional surface of the pads or shoes.
>>>>> On Mar 8, 2018, at 11:09 AM, DAVE HOGYE via Fot
>>>>> The quality of the new calipers is somewhat suspect,
>>>>> but seem to work as needed.
>>>>> The first pair that I bought from BPNW had a yellow
>>>>> (anodized ?) finish with numbers in the castings.? The
>>>>> second pair from BPNW 4 years later have a silver
>>>>> finish and no numbers in the casting which made me
>>>>> wonder about the quality.
>>>>> My first set has been on my car from 2013. ?13 race
>>>>> weekends a total of 3,800 miles.
>>>>> Wilwood makes beautiful replacements now.? They are
>>>>> anodized black.? I far as I can tell, they will fit
>>>>> our Triumphs, but haven't made a complete comparison.
>>>>> Of course the price is higher, but more equivalent to
>>>>> the importance of good brakes.
>>>>>
>>>>> DH
>>>>>
>>>>>> On March 8, 2018 at 2:54 AM Henry Frye via Fot
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have seen these available for a while now, but fear
>>>>>> they are made
>>>>>> somewhere we don't want to know from materials I
>>>>>> don't want to think
>>>>>> about. I'm not brave enough to put one of these on a
>>>>>> street car, let
>>>>>> alone my race car.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Has anybody tried these calipers yet? Any feedback???
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As long as good cores are available for 16P's, I'm
>>>>>> rebuilding OEM
>>>>>> calipers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Henry
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2018-03-07 23:24, DAVE HOGYE via Fot wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BTW, the PB calipers are available new for around
>>>>>>> $100 each new.
>>>>>>> That's pretty inexpensive for such an important
>>>>>>> part.? I purchased
>>>>>>> another set when I thought I might be having a
>>>>>>> problem, but ended up
>>>>>>> just changing pads.? I'm glad to have a new pair
>>>>>>> standing by. Then I
>>>>>>> can rebuild at my leisure.
>>>>>>
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