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The following is just my opinion and is only presented to see if it can hel=
p, not to criticize anyone.
I know the amount of smoke that can be generated because of worn valve seal=
s sounds a little difficult to believe but in aviation when we want to lay =
down a serious smoke cloud, for example during allow pass at a pancake flyi=
n, all it takes is a small aquarium pump, a few ounces of oil injected into=
one of the exhaust tubes and it's hard to believe how much smoke that will=
generate. Our company once had a late model Ford sedan, small v8, used by =
the reps. One of those smoked so bad it was cited, while parked, by local p=
olice for creating a public nuisance with the smoke it was generating. Turn=
ed out to be badly worn valve seals. When they were replaced with new Perfe=
ct Circle valve seals the issue was resolved. That is not to say it is not =
the oil rings causing the problem but it's so much easier to check the leas=
t expensive, easiest area to access first, then it is to pull the head and/=
or tear down the engine to check the rings. At least if you replace a few o=
il seals, without having to remove the head, and it still smokes then for s=
ure the next step is the valve guides and maybe the rings.
Several years ago we had a vintage twin engine aircraft land at our EAA Clu=
bs airport that had flown all the way from England to attend the big AirVen=
ture airshow in Oshkosh, WI. The right engine had lost oil pressure and the=
pilot made an emergency landing. The local IA mechanic, (The highest mecha=
nic rating there is) examined the aircraft and determined it was a faulty o=
il pressure gauge. The pilot, in a surplus of well understood caution, poli=
tely decided that was not possible, had the entire right engine removed, cr=
ated, and shipped back to England where it was determined the engine was fi=
ne with no oil pressure issues. The engine was returned one month later, re=
installed and when it was started the oil pressure gauge for that engine in=
dicated zero oil pressure. That was when they replaced the gauge. A few hou=
rs later the pilot departed, did a low pass over the field and waved at all=
of us as we took photos and waved back, then he turned and took up an east=
erly heading toward Canada and the route home to England. Unfortunately, he=
missed the airshow and spent several thousands of dollars when he could ha=
ve at least tried checking the gauge on a bench with air pressure to see if=
it was faulty, before he had the engine removed, crated and shipped. There=
are times when it is valid to check the easiest and least expensive first.=
It's not always the cure and if it's not it does at least remove one more =
uncertainty.
These are must my thoughts based on 40 years building 800 HP supercharged r=
acing engines and being a pilot who maintains his own aircraft and two vint=
age 1960 Triumph TR3A's.
________________________________
From: Triumphs [triumphs-bounces@autox.team.net] on behalf of Geo Hahn [ahw=
ahneetr@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 9:45 PM
To: Rye Livingston
Cc: Triumphs
Subject: Re: [TR] update - the mystery continues
I recall you initially had a problem with an incorrectly installed oil ring=
(overlapped instead of end-to-end). Sure sounds like that again since lea=
k down and compression tests reveal nothing.
I have a hard time imagining valve guides could cause the massive blue smok=
e you're seeing - but a failed oil ring sure could.
Geo
ac.com>> wrote:
The mystery continues.
First off my bad. It's clearly blue-ish smoke, not white. It's burning oi=
l not water.
So today I cleaned up the plugs and fired it up again to get it up to norma=
l operating temperature, and the smoke was billowing down the street like p=
olice had been throwing out tear gas canisters. Your comment was if it lin=
gers for a moment or three it's oil. This cloud is lingering for 10-20 plus=
seconds as it was rolling down the street.
Got it warmed up and first did a leak down test. Rotated the engine to get=
each piston at the top of it's stroke with the values closed for ignition,=
then put 100 psi into each cylinder and 1, 3 and 4 held steady at 98psi. #=
2 held steady at 95psi. No issues uncovered.
Next was a compression test. Engine still warm, throttle wide open, all fo=
ur came up to 150 lbs plus 1-2 lbs. No issues uncovered.
So our thoughts at this point is it can't be a head gasket if we're getting=
good compression numbers and good leak down test numbers.
Additional info - When I bought this TR4a head for this rebuild, it had bee=
n serviced many years ago but never installed on an engine. The machine sh=
op tore it down and installed new hardened valve seats and checked everythi=
ng out - supposedly. I was told the valves, valve springs and valve guides=
were all good, but now we're thinking this whole thing could be related to=
bad valve guides.
Not that this should matter, but I also installed a big bore kit so sleeves=
and pistons are all new.
I expect the head will come off again but hope to zero in on the problem be=
fore dismantling it.
Regards,
Rye
erizon.net>> wrote:
seconded...
blue is 'burning' oil, not just super heated oil blowby which is usuall=
y white.
If it dissipates almost immediately it's water, if it lingers for a moment =
or three.... its oil
ptegler
On 10/15/2015 10:51 AM, Brad Kahler wrote:
Lots of white smoke doesn't always indicate water/coolant. On my TR4 engin=
e that had been freshly rebuilt when I bought it I had billowing clouds of =
white smoke. After several head gasket changes I finally realized that the=
new liners (liner & piston kit) had not been cross hatched so the rings di=
dn't seat. This allowed for massive amounts of oil to be sucked up and out=
the exhaust. Result was white smoke.
So the question is, were the cylinder liners cross hatched so the rings wou=
ld seal?
simonsen@gmail.com>> wrote:
Is that water or oil? Lots of white smoke would indicate to me a blown h=
ead gasket and water on the plugs.
Did you replace the head gasket with a new one when you fixed the oil ring?=
Probably not recommended, but I've reused them (1x) in the past, but al=
ways painted them with the copper coat head gasket paint.
I've blown head gaskets that leaked water into the pistons only -- no water=
in the oil. But you may want to check your oil for contamination.
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
verizon.net
--
com<http://www.teglerizer.com>
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
tr@gmail.com
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<div style=3D"direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size: =
10pt;">The following is just my opinion and is only presented to see if it =
can help, not to criticize anyone.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I know the amount of smoke that can be generated because of worn valve=
seals sounds a little difficult to believe but in aviation when we want to=
lay down a serious smoke cloud, for example during allow pass at a pancake=
flyin, all it takes is a small
aquarium pump, a few ounces of oil injected into one of the exhaust tubes =
and it's hard to believe how much smoke that will generate. Our company onc=
e had a late model Ford sedan, small v8, used by the reps. One of those smo=
ked so bad it was cited, while parked,
by local police for creating a public nuisance with the smoke it was gener=
ating. Turned out to be badly worn valve seals. When they were replaced wit=
h new Perfect Circle valve seals the issue was resolved. That is not to say=
it is not the oil rings causing
the problem but it's so much easier to check the least expensive, easiest =
area to access first, then it is to pull the head and/or tear down the engi=
ne to check the rings. At least if you replace a few oil seals, without hav=
ing to remove the head, and it still
smokes then for sure the next step is the valve guides and maybe the rings=
.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Several years ago we had a vintage twin engine aircraft land at our EA=
A Clubs airport that had flown all the way from England to attend the big A=
irVenture airshow in Oshkosh, WI. The right engine had lost oil pressure an=
d the pilot made an emergency landing.
The local IA mechanic, (The highest mechanic rating there is) examined the=
aircraft and determined it was a faulty oil pressure gauge. The pilot, in =
a surplus of well understood caution, politely decided that was not possibl=
e, had the entire right engine removed,
crated, and shipped back to England where it was determined the engine was=
fine with no oil pressure issues. The engine was returned one month later,=
reinstalled and when it was started the oil pressure gauge for that engine=
indicated zero oil pressure. That
was when they replaced the gauge. A few hours later the pilot departed, di=
d a low pass over the field and waved at all of us as we took photos and wa=
ved back, then he turned and took up an easterly heading toward Canada and =
the route home to England. Unfortunately,
he missed the airshow and spent several thousands of dollars when he could=
have at least tried checking the gauge on a bench with air pressure to see=
if it was faulty, before he had the engine removed, crated and shipped. Th=
ere are times when it is valid to
check the easiest and least expensive first. It's not always the cure and =
if it's not it does at least remove one more uncertainty. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>These are must my thoughts based on 40 years building 800 HP superchar=
ged racing engines and being a pilot who maintains his own aircraft and two=
vintage 1960 Triumph TR3A's. <br>
<div style=3D"font-family: Times New Roman; color: #000000; font-size: 16px=
">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRpF161369" style=3D"direction: ltr;"><font face=3D"Tahoma" si=
ze=3D"2" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> Triumphs [triumphs-bounces@autox.te=
am.net] on behalf of Geo Hahn [ahwahneetr@gmail.com]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 16, 2015 9:45 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Rye Livingston<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Triumphs<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [TR] update - the mystery continues<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>I recall you initially had a problem with an incorrectly installed oil=
ring (overlapped instead of end-to-end). Sure sounds like that again=
since leak down and compression tests reveal nothing.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have a hard time imagining valve guides could cause the massive blue=
smoke you're seeing - but a failed oil ring sure could.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Geo</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 5:25 PM, Rye Livingston =
<span dir=3D"ltr">
<<a href=3D"mailto:ryel@mac.com"; target=3D"_blank">ryel@mac.com</a>><=
/span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1=
px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,san=
s-serif">The mystery continues.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,san=
s-serif">First off my bad. It's clearly blue-ish smoke, not white.&nb=
sp; It's burning oil not water.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,san=
s-serif">So today I cleaned up the plugs and fired it up again to get it up=
to normal operating temperature, and the smoke was billowing down the stre=
et like police had been throwing out tear gas
canisters. Your comment was if it lingers for a moment or three it's=
oil. This cloud is lingering for 10-20 plus seconds as it was rolling down=
the street.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,san=
s-serif">Got it warmed up and first did a leak down test. Rotated the=
engine to get each piston at the top of it's stroke with the values closed=
for ignition, then put 100 psi into each cylinder
and 1, 3 and 4 held steady at 98psi. #2 held steady at 95psi. N=
o issues uncovered.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,san=
s-serif">Next was a compression test. Engine still warm, throttl=
e wide open, all four came up to 150 lbs plus 1-2 lbs. No issues uncovered.=
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,san=
s-serif">So our thoughts at this point is it can't be a head gasket if we'r=
e getting good compression numbers and good leak down test numbers.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,san=
s-serif">Additional info - When I bought this TR4a head for this rebuild, i=
t had been serviced many years ago but never installed on an engine. =
The machine shop tore it down and installed new hardened
valve seats and checked everything out - supposedly. I was told the =
valves, valve springs and valve guides were all good, but now we're thinkin=
g this whole thing could be related to bad valve guides.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,san=
s-serif">Not that this should matter, but I also installed a big bore kit s=
o sleeves and pistons are all new.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,san=
s-serif">I expect the head will come off again but hope to zero in on the p=
roblem before dismantling it.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,san=
s-serif">Regards,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,san=
s-serif">Rye</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
On Oct 15, 2015, at 07:46 PM, ptegler <<a href=3D"mailto:ptegler@verizon=
.net" target=3D"_blank">ptegler@verizon.net</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,san=
s-serif">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>seconded...<br>
blue is 'burning' oil, not just super heated oil blowby =
which is usually white.<br>
If it dissipates almost immediately it's water, if it lingers for a moment =
or three.... its oil<br>
<br>
ptegler<br>
<br>
<div>On 10/15/2015 10:51 AM, Brad Kahler wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Lots of white smoke doesn't always indicate water/coolant.=
On my TR4 engine that had been freshly rebuilt when I bought it I ha=
d billowing clouds of white smoke. After several head gasket changes =
I finally realized that the new liners (liner
& piston kit) had not been cross hatched so the rings didn't seat.&nbs=
p; This allowed for massive amounts of oil to be sucked up and out the exha=
ust. Result was white smoke.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So the question is, were the cylinder liners cross hatched so the ring=
s would seal?</div>
<div><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 9:15 AM, Chris Simo =
;<span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:ccsimonsen@gmail.com"; target=3D"_b=
lank">ccsimonsen@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; paddin=
g-left:1ex; border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204); border-left-width:1px; bord=
er-left-style:solid">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Is that water or oil? Lots of white smoke wou=
ld indicate to me a blown head gasket and water on the plugs.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Did you replace the head gasket with a new one when you fixed the oil =
ring? Probably not recommended, but I've reused them (1x) in t=
he past, but always painted them with the copper coat head gasket paint.<br=
>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I've blown head gaskets that leaked water into the pistons only -- no =
water in the oil. But you may want to check your oil for contaminatio=
n.</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; paddin=
g-left:1ex; border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204); border-left-width:1px; bord=
er-left-style:solid">
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset target=3D"_blank"></fieldset><br>
<pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap!important">** <a href=3D"mailto:triumphs=
@autox.team.net" target=3D"_blank">triumphs@autox.team.net</a> **=0A=
=0A=
//www.team.net/donate.html</a>=0A=
Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/archive"; target=3D"_blank">http://w=
ww.team.net/archive</a>=0A=
Forums: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/forums"; target=3D"_blank">http://www=
.team.net/forums</a>=0A=
hs/ptegler@verizon.net" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/mailman/opt=
ions/triumphs/ptegler@verizon.net</a>=0A=
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
<div>-- <br>
Paul Tegler <a href=3D"mailto:ptegler@verizon.net"; target=3D"_blank">p=
tegler@verizon.net</a> <a href=3D"http://www.teglerizer.com"; target=3D=
"_blank">www.teglerizer.com</a></div>
</font></span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
** <a href=3D"mailto:triumphs@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank">triumphs@au=
tox.team.net</a> **<br>
<br>
et=3D"_blank">
Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/archive"; rel=3D"noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/archive</a><br>
Forums: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/forums"; rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D=
"_blank">http://www.team.net/forums</a><br>
hs/ahwahneetr@gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/ahwahneetr@gmail.com</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
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