Jeff,
The things you offer certainly are worthy of some consideration. My
previous hyperbole was just to stir things up a little with regard to
thermostats vis-a-vis the overall problem. Obviously I don't think using a
160 versus a 195 thermostat would buy you anything in the hot day in L.A.
scenario I described. In that case you would be quite happy to have the
engine maintain anything like 215F. And by the way, what's your theory as
to how the opening of the thermostat relates to cooling capacity? I guess
according to the less flow is better school, the thermostat ought to start
in the open position and close as it gets hotter. Even if we subscribe to
the more is better school, we still don't know how much it helps to be more
open. The implication from the way you present it is that thermostat has to
be fully open to be fully effective. I doubt this is really the case. I'll
bet that within 5 degrees or so it goes from closed to full on. Just seems
to work this way in my case because the water temperature seems to track the
air temperature so close once it gets just a little over the nominal
thermostat temp.
I know that for most people the choice of thermostat is probably driven more
by emotion than reality and I don't really expect you or anyone else to go
pull their 160 units and put in a 195 just because I said to. What I really
hope for is to redirect some of this thinking and effort into more useful
channels. There are a lot of Tiger owners out there with very cool running
cars. Pecentage wise, I think it's a lot better than 15-20 years ago when
it seemed that virtually every Tiger, including mine, had some degree of
cooling problem. I think the path to a cool running Tiger is now pretty
well worn. It starts with how you build your engine (not too tight), and
includes a good radiator, shroud, fan, and water pump. Cullen Bennett is
one of those that has been able to push his Tiger's cooling capacity to the
extreme. He has to be given a lot of credit for being able to not only keep
his engine cool in the Arizona sun, but do it while running an air conditioner.
So all right Jeff, you have my permission and even blessing to leave in your
160 degree thermostat, at least till September 22 (the end of summer). You
might even consider applying the $5 dollars for a new thermostat towards the
purchase of a more significant piece of hardware; like a better fan, full
shroud, etc.
Bob
> "In this kind of situation, it doesn't matter if you have a 160
> degree thermostat and how much of the time your engine has spent
> running at this temperature. This theory is sort of like running your
> air conditioner and freezing your butt all winter long because in the
> summer when it gets hot and you really need it, the air conditioner
> roles over and dies. Some people seem to think they're putting all
> their cold time in the bank so they can draw on it when they need it I
> guess. This is just some of my sarcasm regarding using a cold
> thermostat; i.e., less than 180 degrees. 195 is actually probably
> ideal in terms of engine performance and longevity."
>
> Bob
>
> A few things to consider:
>
> 1) The shop manual recommends a 160F thermostat for summer and a 190
> for winter.
> 2) A 160F thermostat starts to open at 160 and is fully open at 180.
> A 195F starts to open at 195 and is completely open at 215. If you are
> worried about a marginal cooling system which one would you choose,
> 160 or 195?
> 3) Changing a thermostat is the cheapest change you can make, less
> than $5.00. If it doesn't work, put the 195 back in and you are not
> out of too much $$$.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
>Subject: Re: Hot Tigers
>Author: rpalmer@ames.ucsd.edu (Bob Palmer) at INTERNET
>Date: 9/3/97 11:02 AM
>
>
>Jeff,
>
>A lot of us, me included use a Gano filter in the upper hose to keep the
>"klinkers" out of the radiator. I check it every so often and clean out
>some debris that otherwise might have closgged the radiator. It's easier to
>clean it out of the filter than out of the radiator. If you engine is
>thirty-five years old and hasn't been boiled, acid dipped, etc. then there
>can be a lot of bad stuff coming out of the engine. I know one Tiger owner
>in particular for whom this is a royal pain; he's constantly having to clean
>out the filter. I was talking with Tom Ballou and one of his many good
>ideas was to pump phosphoric acid through the block for awhile until it came
>clean. I suggested maybe adding a little muriatic (aka hydrochloric), but
>Tom thought this was too aggressive. He's probably right. If you could
>get ahold of an acid pump, you could pump it through your motor just as it
>sits in the car. In this case, with all the aluminum involved, I'd
>definitely use only phophoric, which is actually a quite mild acid. In fact
>you find it as an ingredient in soda pops like coke, etc. This is why a
>pennywill get bright if you soak it in coke for awhile. Let's see, maybe if
>we flush our cooling system with coke it will come out really well!
>
>So why did you think you wanted to own a Tiger? It's all these problems we
>share that forms the basis for the "bonding experiences" that bring us
>closer together. How can you beat, for example, the experience of a dozen
>or so Tigers caravaning on a hot summer day through L.A. in stop-and-go
>traffic? What better way to build empathy, comaraderie, etc. etc. In this
>kind of situation, it doesn't matter if you have a 160 degree thermostat and
>how much of the time your engine has spent running at this temperature.
>This theory is sort of like running your air conditioner and freezing your
>butt all winter long because in the summer when it gets hot and you really
>need it, the air conditioner roles over and dies. Some people seem to think
>they're putting all their cold time in the bank so they can draw on it when
>they need it I guess. This is just some of my sarcasm regarding using a
>cold thermostat; i.e., less than 180 degrees. 195 is actually probably
>ideal in terms of engine performance and longevity. If you think you will
>ever face the problem of being stuck in traffic on a hot day, and it's hard
>to guarantee you won't, then get a REALLY BIG FAN, either electric or
>mechanical or both. Then, if your engine stays cool when you're moving, it
>will also stay cool when you're not.
>Just a perverse thought regarding this problem vis-avis Tigers United: How
>about a trophy for cool running. We'll just park all our cars in the hot
>sun and leave them idling. The last one left running wins.
>
>Bob
>
>> I was over a friends house this weekend and was asking him about a new
>> radiator that he put in his Mustang. He said it helped but was still
>> overheating. He opened the hood and the first thing I noticed was the
>> absence of a shroud, but was really curious to me and I had never seen
>> before was filter installed in the upper radiator hose.
>>
>> Told him about the slow flow vs. fast discussions we've been having.
>> Has anyone ever seen one of these items? And why would a "filter" be
>> necessary? Geez, until I owned the Tiger, the only cooling advise I
>> ever heard was flush the system and 50% antifreeze/50% water!
>>
>> JCarter
>>
>>
>>______________________________ Reply Separator
>_________________________________
>>Subject: Re: Hot Tigers
>>Author: Non-HP-rpalmer (rpalmer@ames.ucsd.edu) at HP-ColSprings,mimegw5
>>Date: 9/3/97 8:59 AM
>>
>>
>>Nice to hear a little more about this monster 351C Tiger. Obviously,
>>there's more than one way to skin this cat. I presume you are giving your
>>engine temperatures in Celsius. Few of us are really going to believe an
>>operating temperature between 85 and 120 F. If your talking centigrade (or
>>Celsius to be more correct) this would be a range of to 185F to 248F, and
>>halfway between is 216F. I, and a lot of other Tiger owners have basically
>>the same experience, each with very different equipment and motors. I guess
>>it's natural that most of the people discussing this issue have some kind of
>>problem. Diagnosing each individual problem is the challenge.
>>
>>The only small thing, but significant I think, I would take issue with is
>>referring to the "copper washer to restrict water flow". Reducing water flow
>>per se never improves cooling. The value of a restriction is that it builds
>>pressure inside the engine, albeit at the cost of water flow. As long as the
>>reduction in water flow is not excessive, then there's a net benefit. The
>>trick is to add just the right amount of restriction, I guess only trial and
>>error will work here.
>>
>>Bob
>>
>>>Tigers,
>>> I am having a few chuckles with all the "Cooling of hot Tigers"
>>>mail. I have a 4 barrel head 351 Cleveland in my tiger which I drive
>>>to work every week day. The 351 gets 14 mph on a good week and normally
>>>around 13 mpg. Needless to say I am burning more gas per minute than
>>>most 260 or 289 Tigers; yet I don't have an overheating problem. I
>>>do admit that when I spend 15 minutes in traffic the temperature gauge
>>>goes up to about 1/2 way between the 85 and 120 degree mark. In normal
>>>driving the gauge sets just slightly above the 85 degree mark. I have
>>>a generic " Do Not Open while Hot Coolent Recovery" cap on the expansion
>>>tank (which is completely full) and a plastic recovery bottle. Apparently
>>>the cap has not opened this summer as there is green antifreeze in the
>>>radiator, but the plain water half filling the recovery bottle is still
>clear.
>>> I do have a wider and longer engine compartment than stock, but
>>>then again I have a bigger motor filling it up. I assume some of the air
>>>can get around the motor and out under the Tiger.
>>> The radiator is 4" wider than stock and it has a modern copper
>core in
>>>it ( which weighs a lot less than the stock English core).
>>> Inlet and outlets were added to the lower left and upper right
>>>to match the Clevland I/O. The original Radiator I/O are capped by
>>>"Jones Plugs" ( these are rubber caps used by the plumbing industry
>>>when they pressure test their plumbing). Probably need to replace them
>>>as they are now 6 or 7 years old.
>>> I have a 6 blade 14" steel fan that orginally supplied by Sears
>>>for an aftermarket air-conditioner for a Rambler.
>>> The thermostate is unmodified. The Cleveland has the stock OEM
>>>copper washer under the thermostat to slow the water flow.
>>> When running the Tiger for long periods of time parked in the
>>>driveway ( say to charge a battery or when I am doing work that requires
>>>the motor to run for a long time such as breaking in a new camshaft) the
>>>Temperature gauge gets on up there towards 120. At that point I either
>>> shut it off or set up an electric fan to blow air in the grill.
>>>Sometimes I use a hose to provide a small water spray on the radiator
>>>in these cases.
>>> The Tiger has the stock Tiger II dual pipe oil cooler on it. >
>> The Thermo-Tec that I wrapped the headers in has caused the
>>>running temperature to increase 8 to 10 degrees. I did not rejet the
>>>carb after wrapping the headers and it seems that I may have lost
>>>1/2 to 1 mpg due to the wrap. Maby due to excess cylinder scavaging?
>>> I have a reversed hood scoop but that is mainly for air filter
>>>clearance. Some air comes out of the rear of the scoop below 35 mph but
>>>air enters above 35 mph.
>>> Most of my driving is in town at 30 to 60 mph; however I
>>>don't waste any time starting from lights unless I am blocked by
>>>traffic. I also don't have temperature problems at 90+ on the
>>>highway. That is in Florida where the air temperature is 85 to
>>>90 degrees with 85 to 100 percent humidity most of the year.
>>>(when It is not raining)
>>> My recommendation to Tiger Owners is to have your radiator
>>>recored with a modern core. I have had a couple done for around
>>>$130 at the local radiator repair shops. I truely believe that
>>>the state of the art in radiators has improved in the last 30 years.
>>>Lighter and more efficient. ( Air has a chance to get through the core
>>>compared to the very dense fins of the original Tiger core.)
>>>Jim Barrett Tiger II 351C and others
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
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