--===============0064226409399508483==
boundary="----=_Part_1270736_859333598.1621432687638"
------=_Part_1270736_859333598.1621432687638
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On those engines (the only ones I have had experience with) the spark is f=
ired on every revolution and deep down there is a cam lobe on the crank and=
a set of points that times the firing.=C2=A0 But the magnets must be passi=
ng by the coil at the time or you get nothing.=C2=A0=20
I have a small yard so we went electric on the mower.=C2=A0 It's great.=C2=
=A0 The only maintenance is to sharpen the blade every year.=C2=A0 It's so =
easy to use that my wife does all the mowing.=C2=A0 Drop in the battery, pu=
sh the button and go.=C2=A0 I still have the gas powered chipper/shredder w=
hich needs a carb overhaul about every two to three years.=C2=A0 Considerin=
g that I drag it out about three times a year the use/overhaul ratio is qui=
te low.
I got enough car stuff to keep me busy.
Cheers all.
=20
Dave=20
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Horne <patintexas@icloud.com>
To: Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.net>
Cc: Shop-talk@autox.team.net
Sent: Wed, May 19, 2021 7:48 am
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
I=E2=80=99ve had a no start condition a couple times with what appeared to =
be a good engine. Turned out the flywheel key was bad, it had sheared.=C2=
=A0
Pat Horne=C2=A0We support Habitat for Humanity
On May 19, 2021, at 7:33 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.net> wrote:
=EF=BB=BF All I know is what the 'Knife Stalkers'--they sounded like Russi=
ans--told me. I don't have a scientific explanation, only that I tore the e=
ngine down and found nothing wrong. I do know that small, basically disposa=
ble appliances are built as simply and cheaply as possible (you can rebuild=
a Stihl MS170 for about $50). The blade wasn't broken--I would have spotte=
d that--but a crack could disrupt a magnetic field somehow. Like I mentione=
d, the Pertronix in my Healey 100 apparently fires off the cam lobes, with =
no magnet required to trigger (what I suspect) is a Hall Effect pickup.
=20
=20
On 5/19/2021 5:07 AM, DAVID MASSEY wrote:
=20
=20
I would find it mildly surprising if they were triggering off of the blad=
e but any motor I've worked on is at least 20 years old.=C2=A0 On those mot=
ors (a couple Briggs and Scrapiron and a Tecumseh) had the magneto in the f=
lywheel on the opposite end.=C2=A0 They will run without the blade attached=
.=C2=A0 Triggering off the blade means that motor is a special-purpose mode=
l for that application.=C2=A0 The economies of scale favor a more generic d=
esign.
=20
Dave=20
=20
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: old dirtbeard <dirtbeard@gmail.com>
To: Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.net>
Cc: shop-talk@autox.team.net
Sent: Tue, May 18, 2021 9:38 pm
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston
=20
Hi Bob,=20
I believe=C2=A0you, of course, but I have never heard this=C2=A0before.=
=C2=A0 I have a Craftsman 21" walk behind and I usually sharpen the blade a=
nd do maintenance=C2=A0this month, so I think I will see if the engine will=
fire with the blade removed for sharpening.=20
For this to make sense to me, there would need to be some sensor on the b=
lade, or they are using iron mass of the blade as part of the inductance fi=
eld to signal the position for coil firing. The aluminum sump of the motor =
protrudes=C2=A0through the steel deck of the mower, so I suppose it is poss=
ible. There is quite an air gap between the blade and the sump of the engin=
e, however.=20
You have me very curious and I will let you know if the mower will fire w=
ithout the blade=C2=A0attached (if it does, I will not let it run as it is =
hard to predict what would happen without that flywheel attached to the cra=
nkshaft).=20
best,=20
doug=C2=A0 =20
On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:35 PM Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.net> wrote=
:
=20
Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman walk-behind that quit runnin=
g suddenly. I tore the engine down, didn't find anything, then finally took=
it to a repair shop. They told me the blade had a crack in it that caused =
the problem; supposedly the blade is part of a timing loop that fires the s=
park. Sort of makes sense if you think of the blade as a flywheel with a po=
sition sensor on it.
=20
Bob
=20
On 5/18/2021 2:55 PM, Brian and Wendy Warrick wrote:
=20
I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have never gave it a thought. I can'=
t see why it would matter. If it did, they would have designed the adapter =
differently. =20
Brian Nampa, ID =20
From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net> on behalf of Karl Vac=
ek <stearman809@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52 PM
To: 'shop-talk@autox.team.net' <Shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Subject: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston =C2=A0 =
Last time I sharpened my 21=E2=80=9D walk-behind mower blade I thought of =
something that=E2=80=99s never occurred to me, after using the same brand o=
f mower for 25 years.. =C2=A0 On a Snapper, the blade can actually go on =
any way onto the square adapter keyed to the crankshaft.=C2=A0 The mounting=
point is square, no pins, no longer side, nothing. =C2=A0 One way would =
be aligned with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the other way would be across.=
=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s been off many times and there=E2=80=99s no way to tell =
how it was mounted originally.=C2=A0 The manual is silent on this. =C2=A0 =
Power stroke shouldn=E2=80=99t matter, but maybe some dynamic issue one wa=
y or the other? =C2=A0 Thanks!
Karl =20
=20
=20
_______________________________________________
=20
Shop-talk@autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation=C2=A0 $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/arc=
hive
=20
Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbe=
ard@gmail.com
=20
=20
_______________________________________________
=20
Shop-talk@autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation=C2=A0 $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/arc=
hive
=20
Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dave1m=
assey@cs.com
=20
=20
_______________________________________________
Shop-talk@autox.team.net
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/arch=
ive
xas@icloud.com
_______________________________________________
Shop-talk@autox.team.net
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/arch=
ive
ssey@cs.com
------=_Part_1270736_859333598.1621432687638
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div style=3D"color:black;font: 12pt Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
<div> <font size=3D"3">On those engines (the only ones I have had experienc=
e with) the spark is fired on every revolution and deep down there is a cam=
lobe on the crank and a set of points that times the firing. But the=
magnets must be passing by the coil at the time or you get nothing. =
<br>
</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"3"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"3">I have a small yard so we went electric on the mower.=
It's great. The only maintenance is to sharpen the blade every=
year. It's so easy to use that my wife does all the mowing. Dr=
op in the battery, push the button and go. I still have the gas power=
ed chipper/shredder which needs a carb overhaul about every two to three ye=
ars. Considering that I drag it out about three times a year the use/=
overhaul ratio is quite low.</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"3"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"3">I got enough car stuff to keep me busy.</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"3"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"3">Cheers all.</font><br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div style=3D"clear:both"><font size=3D"4">Dave </font><br>
<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black"><font=
size=3D"2">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Pat Horne <patintexas@icloud.com><br>
To: Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.net><br>
Cc: Shop-talk@autox.team.net<br>
Sent: Wed, May 19, 2021 7:48 am<br>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to piston<br>
<br>
<div id=3D"yiv3206650706">
<div>I=E2=80=99ve had a no start condition a couple times with what appeare=
d to be a good engine. Turned out the flywheel key was bad, it had sheared.=
<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Pat Horne
<div>We support Habitat for Humanity</div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"yiv3206650706yqt2712292610" id=3D"yiv3206650706yqtfd55748"><b=
r clear=3D"none">On May 19, 2021, at 7:33 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell@comc=
ast.net> wrote:<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv3206650706yqt2712292610" id=3D"yiv3206650706yqtfd15972">
<div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF
=20
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv3206650706yqt2712292610" id=3D"yiv3206650706yqtfd69834">
<div>
=20
=20
All I know is what the 'Knife Stalkers'--they sounded like
Russians--told me. I don't have a scientific explanation, only that
I tore the engine down and found nothing wrong. I do know that
small, basically disposable appliances are built as simply and
cheaply as possible (you can rebuild a Stihl MS170 for about $50).
The blade wasn't broken--I would have spotted that--but a crack
could disrupt a magnetic field somehow. Like I mentioned, the
Pertronix in my Healey 100 apparently fires off the cam lobes, with
no magnet required to trigger (what I suspect) is a Hall Effect
pickup.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
=20
<div class=3D"yiv3206650706moz-cite-prefix">On 5/19/2021 5:07 AM, DAVID MAS=
SEY
wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
</blockquote></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"yiv3206650706yqt2712292610" id=3D"yiv3206650706yqtfd18274">
<div style=3D"color:black;font:12pt Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
=20
<div> <font size=3D"3">I would find it mildly surprising if they
were triggering off of the blade but any motor I've worked
on is at least 20 years old. On those motors (a couple
Briggs and Scrapiron and a Tecumseh) had the magneto in the
flywheel on the opposite end. They will run without the
blade attached. Triggering off the blade means that motor
is a special-purpose model for that application. The
economies of scale favor a more generic design.</font><br clear=
=3D"none">
</div>
=20
<div> <br clear=3D"none">
</div>
=20
<div style=3D"clear:both;"><font size=3D"4">Dave </font><br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
=20
<div> <br clear=3D"none">
</div>
=20
<div> <br clear=3D"none">
</div>
=20
<div style=3D"font-family:arial, helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black;"><fo=
nt size=3D"2">-----Original Message-----<br clear=3D"none">
From: old dirtbeard <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" sha=
pe=3D"rect" class=3D"yiv3206650706moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" ymailto=3D"mailto:=
dirtbeard@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:dirtbeard@gmail.com";>=
<dirtbeard@gmail.com></a><br clear=3D"none">
To: Bob Spidell <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=
=3D"rect" class=3D"yiv3206650706moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" ymailto=3D"mailto:bs=
pidell@comcast.net" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:bspidell@comcast.net";>=
<bspidell@comcast.net></a><br clear=3D"none">
Cc: <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" clas=
s=3D"yiv3206650706moz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto=3D"mailto:shop-talk@aut=
ox.team.net" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:shop-talk@autox.team.net";>sho=
p-talk@autox.team.net</a><br clear=3D"none">
Sent: Tue, May 18, 2021 9:38 pm<br clear=3D"none">
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Mower blade orientaaion relative to
piston<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
</font>
<div id=3D"yiv3206650706">
=20
<div>
=20
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Bob,
=20
<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>
=20
<div>I believe you, of course, but I have never heard
this before. I have a Craftsman 21" walk beh=
ind and
I usually sharpen the blade and do maintenance thi=
s
month, so I think I will see if the engine will fire
with the blade removed for sharpening.</div>
=20
<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>
=20
<div>For this to make sense to me, there would need to
be some sensor on the blade, or they are using iron
mass of the blade as part of the inductance field to
signal the position for coil firing. The aluminum
sump of the motor protrudes through the steel deck
of the mower, so I suppose it is possible. There is
quite an air gap between the blade and the sump of
the engine, however.</div>
=20
<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>
=20
<div>You have me very curious and I will let you know
if the mower will fire without the blade attached
(if it does, I will not let it run as it is hard to
predict what would happen without that flywheel
attached to the crankshaft).</div>
=20
<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>
=20
<div>best,</div>
=20
<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>
=20
<div>doug </div>
</div>
<br clear=3D"none">
=20
<div class=3D"yiv3206650706gmail_quote">
=20
<div class=3D"yiv3206650706yqt9341191006" id=3D"yiv3206650706yqt66682">
=20
<div class=3D"yiv3206650706gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On
Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:35 PM Bob Spidell <<a rel=
=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:bspidell=
@comcast.net" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:bspidell@comcast.net";>bspide=
ll@comcast.net</a>>
wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"yiv3206650706gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-le=
ft:1ex;">
=20
<div> Possibly of some interest: I had a Craftsman
walk-behind that quit running suddenly. I tore
the engine down, didn't find anything, then
finally took it to a repair shop. They told me
the blade had a crack in it that caused the
problem; supposedly the blade is part of a
timing loop that fires the spark. Sort of makes
sense if you think of the blade as a flywheel
with a position sensor on it.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
Bob<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
=20
<div>On 5/18/2021 2:55 PM, Brian and Wendy
Warrick wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
=20
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;col=
or:rgb(0,0,0);">
I run Snapper walk behind mowers and have
never gave it a thought. I can't see why it
would matter. If it did, they would have
designed the adapter differently.</div>
=20
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;col=
or:rgb(0,0,0);">
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
=20
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;col=
or:rgb(0,0,0);">
Brian</div>
=20
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;col=
or:rgb(0,0,0);">
Nampa, ID</div>
=20
<div>
=20
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;col=
or:rgb(0,0,0);"> <br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%;">
=20
<div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yiv3206650706gmail-m_-6852136761353026904divRplyFwdM=
sg"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt;" face=3D"Calibri, =
sans-serif" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b>
Shop-talk <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noref=
errer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net"; t=
arget=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:shop-talk-bounces@autox.team.net";><shop-=
talk-bounces@autox.team.net></a>
on behalf of Karl Vacek <a rel=3D"nofollow =
noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:stearman809@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:stearman809@gmail.com";><stearman809@g=
mail.com></a><br clear=3D"none">
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 18, 2021 3:52
PM<br clear=3D"none">
<b>To:</b> '<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener nor=
eferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:shop-talk@autox.team.net"; target=
=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:shop-talk@autox.team.net";>shop-talk@autox.team.n=
et</a>'
<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" sha=
pe=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:Shop-talk@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank" h=
ref=3D"mailto:Shop-talk@autox.team.net";><Shop-talk@autox.team.net></a=
><br clear=3D"none">
<b>Subject:</b> [Shop-talk] Mower blade
orientaaion relative to piston</font>
=20
<div> </div>
</div>
=20
<div lang=3D"EN-US">
=20
<div>
=20
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, s=
ans-serif;"> Last time I sharpened my
21=E2=80=9D walk-behind mower blade I tho=
ught
of something that=E2=80=99s never occurre=
d to
me, after using the same brand of
mower for 25 years..</div>
=20
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, s=
ans-serif;"> </div>
=20
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, s=
ans-serif;"> On a Snapper, the blade
can actually go on any way onto the
square adapter keyed to the
crankshaft. The mounting point is
square, no pins, no longer side,
nothing.</div>
=20
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, s=
ans-serif;"> </div>
=20
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, s=
ans-serif;"> One way would be aligned
with the cylinder at TDC/BDC, and the
other way would be across. It=E2=80=
=99s been
off many times and there=E2=80=99s no way=
to
tell how it was mounted originally.
The manual is silent on this.</div>
=20
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, s=
ans-serif;"> </div>
=20
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, s=
ans-serif;"> Power stroke shouldn=E2=80=99t
matter, but maybe some dynamic issue
one way or the other?</div>
=20
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, s=
ans-serif;"> </div>
=20
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, s=
ans-serif;"> Thanks!<br clear=3D"none">
Karl</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</blockquote>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
_______________________________________________<br cl=
ear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
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</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
=20
<div class=3D"yiv3206650706yqt9341191006" id=3D"yiv3206650706yqt16240">____=
___________________________________________<br clear=3D"none">
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