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Re: Recent 100 M on BaT
Rick and Bob: I did it. I was the one who posted on BaT Nov.16 that there
is a problem with the front shock towers and maybe half a dozen other
issues that went unanswered. Being incredulous at the number of issues on
the bottom of the car, considering how glowingly it was being presented, I
showed the pictures to my fellow Healey 100 obsessed neighbor who said
"Aren't those BN1 shock towers?" I had also recently watched the walk
around video and simply couldn't contain myself. Maybe it would have been
better to just reach out to the seller, but I didn't think of that until
just now. Contrary to being savage, I think my remarks showed restraint.
There is a lot more there, and I didn't mention any of the top side
problems. (Bob, I laughed when I read your "ashtray delete" remark) I
think the open discussion of shortcomings of cars listed on BaT benefits
both the buyer and the seller. Imagine the embarrassment of a neophyte
Healey 100 enthusiast having paid top dollar for this car entering it in a
concours ("would be welcome and do well in any concours") and having it
judged to AH Club USA concours standards, or more likely declined to be
judged. Think he might seek legal remedy? I wouldn't want to be the guy
who sold it to him.
On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 11:01=E2=80=AFAM <healeys-request@autox.team.net> w=
rote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Recent 100M on BAT (Mark Bradakis)
> 2. Re: Recent 100M on BAT (Bob Spidell)
> 3. Re: Recent 100M on BAT (rfbegani@gmail.com)
> 4. Re: Recent 100M on BAT (David Masucci)
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Mark Bradakis <mark@bradakis.com>
> To: healeys@autox.team.net
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 13:56:44 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
> On 12/16/23 9:55 AM, Curtis Arndt via Healeys wrote:
> > Regarding the 100M Registry, Lynn Martin and I volunteered to take over
> > the registry, but after several hours of discussion, the cost of doing
> > so came up and we decided that the price of admission was way too high
> > for something with little to no financial gain and a lot of work
> involved.
>
> Try running Team Net for 30+ years!
>
> mjb.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.net>
> To: HealeyRick <healeyrik@gmail.com>
> Cc: Michael Oritt <michael.oritt@gmail.com>, "healeys@autox.team.net" <
> healeys@autox.team.net>
> Bcc:
> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 16:43:03 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
> Rick,
>
> Last I heard, the owner was working with BaT to present another listing
> for this car (or did it sell?). If it's presented truthfully, as having a
> replacement chassis and possibly carbs and distributor I'd have no issues
> with it; it is, essentially, an 'M equivalent' with a (likely) reduced
> price. The commenters did a potential buyer a favor; if s/he knows what
> s/he got, and is happy with it, that's great.
>
> Bob
>
>
> On 12/16/2023 9:31 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> As I prepare to write this month's "Auction Report" for the *Healey
> Marque *this 100M discussion has been really helpful and interesting. I
> think your comment " I was surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and
> distributor slide " raises a great question of what exactly is the 100M
> certificate certifying? Bill Meade has written an article on what needs t=
o
> be presented to be certified.
> https://www.100mregistry.com/PROTECTING_YOUR_100M_Feb_2013.pdf
> <https://www.100mregistry.com/PROTECTING_YOUR_100M_Feb_2013.pdf> But it
> seems to me it mainly focuses on the body parts that it left the factory
> with. I find it interesting there's no necessity for pictures of the engi=
ne
> number. And even if all the body parts, carbs, and distributor aren't
> there, Bill says in the article "If some of these items are missing, let
> the Registry know. It normally does not prevent registration provided
> enough ID points are present." So my impression, which I'll try to verif=
y
> with Bill, is the certification is focused on the question whether this i=
s
> the car that left the factory that matches the BMIHT certificate saying i=
t
> had a louvered hood and not so much on whether it still has all the
> original parts an M would have come with.
> I think one of the benefits of the BaT comments for buyers (and
> probably not so much for sellers) is pointing out major deficiencies with
> an offering. Some buyer might have paid way more this car than it would b=
e
> worth if not for the "savage" comments.
>
> Happy Healeydays
> Rick Neville
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 11:46=E2=80=AFAM Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.ne=
t> wrote:
>
>> I think that's indisputable (I unintentionally neglected to mention that
>> aspect). That, and the fact the kits were selling made a case for sellin=
g
>> the M (these days, that would take an army of marketing people to figure
>> out, with lots of 'data' of course, and maybe some AI). Doesn't negate t=
he
>> strong showing of taking, IIRC, 3 cars off the lot--or was that the
>> Bonneville cars?--hanging a few fancy bits on it and giving the bespoke
>> Ferraris, Jags, Astons, Mercedeses etc. a run for their money (the Heale=
ys'
>> rugged simplicity likely helped). DMH was a brilliant marketer and
>> salesman; he spotted the 'niche' hole between lower--performance MGs--we=
're
>> talking TCs and TDs, not Bs and Cs--and higher-performance but much more
>> expensive Jaguars and plugged it. History says he drove cross-county in =
the
>> US to gauge the market; probably why he made overdrive an option from th=
e
>> get-go, for the wide-open US highways. I don't know Triumph history that
>> well, was the TR2 a contemporary of the 100?
>>
>> How many times have you been asked what your Healey is worth--usually by
>> a 'not-a-car-person'--and you've replied 'Whatever someone will pay me f=
or
>> it' (then, if the person seems genuinely interested I may give a run-dow=
n
>> of the contemporary market; these days 'not so good'). It's the same wit=
h
>> other marques; witness the number of Chevelle SS 'tribute' cars going
>> across the block at auctions. Genuine Ms can command a 50-100% premium o=
ver
>> comparable 100s; hence the intensity of the interest and critique. Did y=
ou
>> watch the BaT auction? It was pretty savage and enlightening, to me; I w=
as
>> surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and distributor slide (maybe he w=
as
>> tired of doing the registry thing).
>>
>> From the late, great Gary Anderson:
>>
>>
>> https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-=
Heritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf
>>
>>
>> On 12/16/2023 6:46 AM, Michael Oritt wrote:
>>
>> Some feel that since DMH knew he was going to change over to a new car
>> (the 100-6) he figured out a clever marketing ploy to get rid of what mi=
ght
>> otherwise have become a less-than-desirable inventory of late production
>> 100's by outfitting some of the cars with the snazzy M upgrade. If so i=
t
>> was probably never his intention nor in his comprehension to produce wha=
t
>> has ironically become a very special Healey second only to the 100-S in
>> collectibility.
>>
>> Best--Michael Oritt
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 1:31=E2=80=AFAM Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.ne=
t> wrote:
>>
>>> The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the optional branch
>>> extractor--as opposed to a stock BN2's 90HP. That's a 22% increase in
>>> power; I'd call that significant. Also, how do you 'hang' a camshaft an=
d
>>> pistons on an engine (the mechanics were supposed to pull the engine, b=
ut
>>> if DMH and Geoff weren't around they'd cheat and do the mods in situ)?
>>>
>>> I think at least part of the value of an M is that it made an appearanc=
e
>>> at the Healey factory, possibly with DMH and/or Geoff in attendance, as
>>> opposed to just coming off the Austin assembly line. Also, the
>>> modifications were, for the most part, the same as made to the cars tha=
t
>>> ran at LeMans in '52 ('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th) overall. When
>>> customers started asking for the same modifications DMH first sold a ki=
t,
>>> then the complete car (anyone remember 'Race on Sunday, sell on Monday?=
').
>>>
>>> I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars command a
>>> significant price premium (hence why of the original, documented 640 ca=
rs
>>> only 3,000 remain).
>>>
>>> bs
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there isn't that
>>> much to hanging the "modification " parts on any 100.
>>> If the "M" designation involved significant performance modifications,
>>> say like an "M" series BMW, which could not be easily copied, then I wo=
uld
>>> consider them be very special.
>>> I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not be
>>> surprised to see the "Registry" fade away.
>>> Just my opinion.
>>>
>>> M
>>>
>>> On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys, <
>>> healeys@autox.team.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What makes a 100M?
>>>> Very good question and not easy to answer.
>>>>
>>>> In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category=
is significantly higher than the normal 100,
>>>> is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 1=
00M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and
>>>> no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would b=
e such a major modification for me, as would a
>>>> conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carb=
urettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a
>>>> Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 fo=
r the same money. But I have to admit, for me
>>>> the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. =
It's a special model with a little more
>>>> horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina =
BMW or a AMG Mercedes.
>>>>
>>>> Josef Eckert
>>>> Germany
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>>>>
>>>> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>>>
>>>> Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
>>>>
>>>> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell@comcast.net>
>>>>
>>>> An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which may b=
e
>>>> what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a 'better M' w=
ith
>>>> aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.).
>>>>
>>>> I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but I'd b=
e
>>>> somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging an M body a=
nd
>>>> parts on a BN1 (a BN2, *maybe*). The main problem I see is an earnest
>>>> owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, =
but
>>>> an owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently
>>>> forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock
>>>> bands).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with that
>>>> caveat. Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it nee=
ded a
>>>> new frame. How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body parts over =
to a
>>>> solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100=
M
>>>> Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body parts and cockpit
>>>> surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engines have b=
een
>>>> registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry=
. So
>>>> is the BaT car still an M? Some pretty valuable race cars have been
>>>> crashed and fitted with new chassis and still bring big money at aucti=
on.
>>>>
>>>> To me, what makes an M an M is the motor. If an M no longer has its
>>>> original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an =
M.
>>>> Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunb=
eam
>>>> Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, i=
t's
>>>> got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tig=
er
>>>> anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and
>>>> distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an original=
M
>>>> motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and=
put
>>>> a dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a 100=
M cam
>>>> in the lump!
>>>>
>>>> Happy Healeydays,
>>>> Rick Neville
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05=E2=80=AFPM Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.=
net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Excellent report, thank you.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but,
>>>>> since I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and cou=
ld
>>>>> only point out obvious differences with my car (which was completely
>>>>> original as far as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One t=
hing
>>>>> that was somewhat disturbing to me is that the Registry certified thi=
s car,
>>>>> while noting some major anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to=
be
>>>>> new and didn't have the hand scribing like my car).
>>>>>
>>>>> The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car? Yes=
,
>>>>> it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value
>>>>> *should* be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2.
>>>>> And, what did the previous owner know, or should have known about thi=
s car?
>>>>> How do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would need=
the
>>>>> proverbial asterisk alongside the page title.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> If you were following it recently, you might find my observations
>>>>> interesting. So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him dete=
rmine
>>>>> if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
>>>>>
>>>>> It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN=
1
>>>>> front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracke=
t, as
>>>>> the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have =
no
>>>>> evidence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mo=
unt
>>>>> shows non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodat=
e the
>>>>> BN2 mount.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays
>>>>> mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it different directio=
ns to
>>>>> just make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the =
two
>>>>> relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area=
with
>>>>> my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill =
those
>>>>> 4 holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those=
holes
>>>>> seem as they never existed. Along with that, where a BN2 would have =
the
>>>>> single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed =
into
>>>>> welded captive nuts on the firewall, you can see plain sheet screws =
were
>>>>> used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping.
>>>>> Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end
>>>>> result. I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeare=
d
>>>>> identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear
>>>>> original. Now that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M e=
ngine,
>>>>> because there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. =
Anyone
>>>>> who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference=
in
>>>>> power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power.
>>>>>
>>>>> The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off
>>>>> another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows =
some
>>>>> previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make ou=
t any
>>>>> evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I =
will
>>>>> say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and
>>>>> prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be =
for
>>>>> someone else to decide.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original, and I simply
>>>>> don't have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks =
old,
>>>>> it's original. It does indeed look to have some age, so?
>>>>>
>>>>> I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort t=
o
>>>>> try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chass=
is.
>>>>> Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the hol=
es
>>>>> where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the pe=
rson
>>>>> didn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and though=
t they
>>>>> were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?
>>>>>
>>>>> With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car
>>>>> correctly. The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is str=
aight,
>>>>> and gaps look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very goo=
d car
>>>>> all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience =
under
>>>>> his belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the
>>>>> restoration, it is surprising that the front frame to shroud bracket=
s were
>>>>> not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning som=
e
>>>>> trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Millers
>>>>>
>>>>> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a
>>>>> test drive."
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>>> Suggested annual donation $12.75
>>>>>
>>>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>>>>> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>>>>>
>>>>> Healeys@autox.team.net
>>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>>>>
>>>>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/healeyrik@gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>> =EF=BB=BF
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
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>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: <rfbegani@gmail.com>
> To: <josef-eckert@t-online.de>
> Cc: <healeys@autox.team.net>
> Bcc:
> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 05:06:32 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>
> Dear Josef:
>
>
>
> Your comments are the same in the USA especially in Florida where there
> are large numbers of retired people. My good friend and President of our
> British Car Club Hermann Schuller formerly of Germany has said that young=
er
> people want Japanese or European sports cars. It is the same for those w=
ho
> enjoy boating. Sailors today are 55 to 80 years old. I had to give away
> my 1967 28-foot sailboat in good condition at our summer home on Lake
> Michigan as younger boaters want speed and comfort. I still have another
> younger 28-foot sailboat in Punta Gorda, Florida and will continue to sai=
l
> in accordance with the agreement with my wife that I will not sail alone.
>
>
>
> Also, our British Car Club of SW Florida is very large and growing thanks
> to the efforts of Hermann who revived the club. He is a born salesman an=
d
> a lover of old sports cars.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Bob Begani
>
> 67 BJ8
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Healeys <healeys-bounces@autox.team.net> *On Behalf Of *josef-eck=
ert---
> via Healeys
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 16, 2023 1:15 PM
> *To:* Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.net>; Michael Oritt <
> michael.oritt@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* healeys@autox.team.net
> *Subject:* Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>
>
>
> As far as I can see here in Europe, the market for Austin-Healeys and
> comparable vehicles from the 1950s has collapsed extremely. It's like the
> pre-war vehicles. They can no longer keep up with today's traffic and on
> motorways they are quite problematic due to the high traffic density and
> the many trucks that also recklessly swerve to overtake. A 100M and also
> a 100 are no longer in demand. The clientele that still knows
> Austin-Healey from her past is almost extinct. Hardly anyone has met
> Donald Healey here. I'm 66 years old now and didn't know him either. I
> saw Geoff once before he died, but we knew Margot quite well, having met
> through friends. But back to the 100M. Hardly anyone here knows the
> difference between a 100 with a LeMans kit and a 100M. All of these are
> then usually offered as 100 Le Mans. If a genuine 100M is actually
> offered, the price is slightly higher than for a comparable 100, but not =
by
> a factor of 2. Nobody actually pays that here. There is also non who
> would pay 100K$ for a 100 or 100M. But as I said, Austin-Healeys are slow
> sellers and the 3000 BJ8 Ph2 is most in demand because it offers just
> enough comfort. But younger people don't want these old cars at all. They
> are looking for a BMW, Porsche or something else from the 70s or 80s that
> also offers more safety and comfort and that they know from their youth.
> Lower priced british cars like MG Bs are also out. They are too expensive
> compared to a Mazda MX-5, or Jaguar XK8 which are definitely the better
> cars compared.
>
> Btw.: The Austin-Healey clubs here have gotten pretty tired. The beautifu=
l
> events like International healey Weekends that were offered 20 years ago
> are no longer offered in thre former glance for a long time. There are
> hardly any active people willing to do work for the clubs anymore. Those
> who do it are also a good 70 years old and what is then done is not reall=
y
> inviting. Many people now stay away from these events which are expensive=
,
> but not inviting.
>
>
>
> Josef Eckert
>
> Germany
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: David Masucci <dmasucci@charter.net>
> To: "josef-eckert@t-online.de" <josef-eckert@t-online.de>
> Cc: Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.net>, Michael Oritt <
> michael.oritt@gmail.com>, Ahealey help <healeys@autox.team.net>
> Bcc:
> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 08:10:57 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
> All of this is inevitable, and not a bad thing. Let=E2=80=99s just conti=
nue to
> enjoy what we can while we can. There will be other passions that will
> entice follow-on generations to enjoy memories from their youth.
>
> Dave
>
> On Dec 16, 2023, at 1:14 PM, josef-eckert--- via Healeys <
> healeys@autox.team.net> wrote:
>
> As far as I can see here in Europe, the market for Austin-Healeys and
> comparable vehicles from the 1950s has collapsed extremely. It's like the
> pre-war vehicles. They can no longer keep up with today's traffic and on
> motorways they are quite problematic due to the high traffic density and
> the many trucks that also recklessly swerve to overtake. A 100M and also
> a 100 are no longer in demand. The clientele that still knows
> Austin-Healey from her past is almost extinct. Hardly anyone has met
> Donald Healey here. I'm 66 years old now and didn't know him either. I
> saw Geoff once before he died, but we knew Margot quite well, having met
> through friends. But back to the 100M. Hardly anyone here knows the
> difference between a 100 with a LeMans kit and a 100M. All of these are
> then usually offered as 100 Le Mans. If a genuine 100M is actually
> offered, the price is slightly higher than for a comparable 100, but not =
by
> a factor of 2. Nobody actually pays that here. There is also non who
> would pay 100K$ for a 100 or 100M. But as I said, Austin-Healeys are slow
> sellers and the 3000 BJ8 Ph2 is most in demand because it offers just
> enough comfort. But younger people don't want these old cars at all. They
> are looking for a BMW, Porsche or something else from the 70s or 80s that
> also offers more safety and comfort and that they know from their youth.
> Lower priced british cars like MG Bs are also out. They are too expensive
> compared to a Mazda MX-5, or Jaguar XK8 which are definitely the better
> cars compared.
> Btw.: The Austin-Healey clubs here have gotten pretty tired. The beautifu=
l
> events like International healey Weekends that were offered 20 years ago
> are no longer offered in thre former glance for a long time. There are
> hardly any active people willing to do work for the clubs anymore. Those
> who do it are also a good 70 years old and what is then done is not reall=
y
> inviting. Many people now stay away from these events which are expensive=
,
> but not inviting.
>
>
> Josef Eckert
> Germany
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original-Nachricht-----
> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
> Datum: 2023-12-16T17:41:57+0100
> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell@comcast.net>
> An: "Michael Oritt" <michael.oritt@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I think that's indisputable (I unintentionally neglected to mention that
> aspect). That, and the fact the kits were selling made a case for selling
> the M (these days, that would take an army of marketing people to figure
> out, with lots of 'data' of course, and maybe some AI). Doesn't negate th=
e
> strong showing of taking, IIRC, 3 cars off the lot--or was that the
> Bonneville cars?--hanging a few fancy bits on it and giving the bespoke
> Ferraris, Jags, Astons, Mercedeses etc. a run for their money (the Healey=
s'
> rugged simplicity likely helped). DMH was a brilliant marketer and
> salesman; he spotted the 'niche' hole between lower--performance MGs--we'=
re
> talking TCs and TDs, not Bs and Cs--and higher-performance but much more
> expensive Jaguars and plugged it. History says he drove cross-county in t=
he
> US to gauge the market; probably why he made overdrive an option from the
> get-go, for the wide-open US highways. I don't know Triumph history that
> well, was the TR2 a contemporary of the 100?
>
> How many times have you been asked what your Healey is worth--usually by =
a
> 'not-a-car-person'--and you've replied 'Whatever someone will pay me for
> it' (then, if the person seems genuinely interested I may give a run-down
> of the contemporary market; these days 'not so good'). It's the same with
> other marques; witness the number of Chevelle SS 'tribute' cars going
> across the block at auctions. Genuine Ms can command a 50-100% premium ov=
er
> comparable 100s; hence the intensity of the interest and critique. Did yo=
u
> watch the BaT auction? It was pretty savage and enlightening, to me; I wa=
s
> surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and distributor slide (maybe he wa=
s
> tired of doing the registry thing).
>
> From the late, great Gary Anderson:
>
>
> https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-H=
eritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf
>
>
> On 12/16/2023 6:46 AM, Michael Oritt wrote:
>
> Some feel that since DMH knew he was going to change over to a new car
> (the 100-6) he figured out a clever marketing ploy to get rid of what mig=
ht
> otherwise have become a less-than-desirable inventory of late production
> 100's by outfitting some of the cars with the snazzy M upgrade. If so it
> was probably never his intention nor in his comprehension to produce what
> has ironically become a very special Healey second only to the 100-S in
> collectibility.
>
> Best--Michael Oritt
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 1:31=E2=80=AFAM Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.net=
> wrote:
>
>> The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the optional branch
>> extractor--as opposed to a stock BN2's 90HP. That's a 22% increase in
>> power; I'd call that significant. Also, how do you 'hang' a camshaft and
>> pistons on an engine (the mechanics were supposed to pull the engine, bu=
t
>> if DMH and Geoff weren't around they'd cheat and do the mods in situ)?
>>
>> I think at least part of the value of an M is that it made an appearance
>> at the Healey factory, possibly with DMH and/or Geoff in attendance, as
>> opposed to just coming off the Austin assembly line. Also, the
>> modifications were, for the most part, the same as made to the cars that
>> ran at LeMans in '52 ('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th) overall. When
>> customers started asking for the same modifications DMH first sold a kit=
,
>> then the complete car (anyone remember 'Race on Sunday, sell on Monday?'=
).
>>
>> I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars command a significan=
t
>> price premium (hence why of the original, documented 640 cars only 3,000
>> remain).
>>
>> bs
>>
>>
>> On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:
>>
>> I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there isn't that
>> much to hanging the "modification " parts on any 100.
>> If the "M" designation involved significant performance modifications,
>> say like an "M" series BMW, which could not be easily copied, then I wou=
ld
>> consider them be very special.
>> I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not be surprise=
d
>> to see the "Registry" fade away.
>> Just my opinion.
>>
>> M
>>
>> On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys, <
>> healeys@autox.team.net> wrote:
>>
>>> What makes a 100M? Very good question and not easy to answer. In my opi=
nion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is significan=
tly higher than the normal 100, is a car that any modification reduces its =
value. A heavily modified 100M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and =
no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be suc=
h a major modification for me, as would a conversion to disc brakes at the =
front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be simply no=
longer a Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 1=
00 for the same money. But I have to admit, for me the hype surrounding the=
100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It's a special model with a l=
ittle more horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an A=
lpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes. Josef Eckert Germany
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>>> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>> Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
>>> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell@comcast.net>
>>> An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which may be
>>> what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a 'better M' wi=
th
>>> aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.).
>>>
>>> I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but I'd be
>>> somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging an M body an=
d
>>> parts on a BN1 (a BN2, *maybe*). The main problem I see is an earnest
>>> owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, b=
ut
>>> an owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently
>>> forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock
>>> bands).
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>>>
>>> This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with that
>>> caveat. Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it need=
ed a
>>> new frame. How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body parts over t=
o a
>>> solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M
>>> Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body parts and cockpit
>>> surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engines have be=
en
>>> registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry.=
So
>>> is the BaT car still an M? Some pretty valuable race cars have been
>>> crashed and fitted with new chassis and still bring big money at auctio=
n.
>>>
>>> To me, what makes an M an M is the motor. If an M no longer has its
>>> original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an M=
.
>>> Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbe=
am
>>> Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it=
's
>>> got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tige=
r
>>> anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and
>>> distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an original =
M
>>> motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and =
put
>>> a dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a 100M=
cam
>>> in the lump!
>>>
>>> Happy Healeydays,
>>> Rick Neville
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05=E2=80=AFPM Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.n=
et>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Excellent report, thank you.
>>>>
>>>> I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but, sinc=
e
>>>> I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and could only
>>>> point out obvious differences with my car (which was completely origin=
al as
>>>> far as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One thing that was
>>>> somewhat disturbing to me is that the Registry certified this car, whi=
le
>>>> noting some major anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be new=
and
>>>> didn't have the hand scribing like my car).
>>>>
>>>> The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car? Yes,
>>>> it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value
>>>> *should* be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2. And,
>>>> what did the previous owner know, or should have known about this car?=
How
>>>> do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would need the
>>>> proverbial asterisk alongside the page title.
>>>>
>>>> Bob
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If you were following it recently, you might find my observations
>>>> interesting. So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him deter=
mine
>>>> if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
>>>>
>>>> It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1
>>>> front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket=
, as
>>>> the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have n=
o
>>>> evidence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mou=
nt
>>>> shows non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate=
the
>>>> BN2 mount.
>>>>
>>>> What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays
>>>> mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it different direction=
s to
>>>> just make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the t=
wo
>>>> relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area =
with
>>>> my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill t=
hose
>>>> 4 holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those =
holes
>>>> seem as they never existed. Along with that, where a BN2 would have t=
he
>>>> single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed i=
nto
>>>> welded captive nuts on the firewall, you can see plain sheet screws w=
ere
>>>> used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position.
>>>>
>>>> I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping.
>>>> Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end
>>>> result. I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared
>>>> identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear
>>>> original. Now that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M en=
gine,
>>>> because there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. A=
nyone
>>>> who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference =
in
>>>> power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power.
>>>>
>>>> The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off
>>>> another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows s=
ome
>>>> previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out=
any
>>>> evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I w=
ill
>>>> say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and
>>>> prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be f=
or
>>>> someone else to decide.
>>>>
>>>> Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original, and I simply don'=
t
>>>> have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old, it=
's
>>>> original. It does indeed look to have some age, so?
>>>>
>>>> I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort to
>>>> try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassi=
s.
>>>> Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the hole=
s
>>>> where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the per=
son
>>>> didn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought=
they
>>>> were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?
>>>>
>>>> With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car
>>>> correctly. The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is stra=
ight,
>>>> and gaps look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good=
car
>>>> all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience u=
nder
>>>> his belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the
>>>> restoration, it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets=
were
>>>> not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some
>>>> trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue.
>>>>
>>>> The Millers
>>>>
>>>> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a tes=
t
>>>> drive."
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>> Suggested annual donation $12.75
>>>>
>>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>>>> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>>>>
>>>> Healeys@autox.team.net
>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>>>
>>>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/healeyrik@gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>> Suggested annual donation $12.75
>>>
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
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>>>
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>>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
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>>
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
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>>
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> _______________________________________________
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>
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>
--00000000000037ed2e060cba36b9
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:large">Re:=
Recent 100 M on BaT</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:l=
arge"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:large">Rick=
and Bob:=C2=A0 I did it.=C2=A0 I was the one who posted on BaT Nov.16 that=
there is a problem with the front shock towers and maybe half a dozen othe=
r issues that went unanswered.=C2=A0 Being incredulous at the number of iss=
ues on the bottom of the car, considering how glowingly it was being presen=
ted, I showed the pictures to my fellow Healey 100 obsessed neighbor who sa=
id "Aren't those BN1 shock towers?"=C2=A0 I had also recently=
watched the walk around video and simply couldn't contain myself.=C2=
=A0 Maybe it would have been better to just reach out to the seller, but I =
didn't think of that until just now.=C2=A0 Contrary to being savage, I =
think my remarks showed restraint.=C2=A0 There is a lot more there, and I d=
idn't mention any of the top side problems.=C2=A0 (Bob, I laughed=C2=A0=
when I read your "ashtray delete" remark)=C2=A0 I think the open =
discussion of shortcomings of cars listed on BaT benefits both the buyer an=
d the seller.=C2=A0 Imagine the embarrassment=C2=A0of a neophyte Healey 100=
enthusiast having=C2=A0 paid top dollar for this car entering it in a conc=
ours ("would be welcome and do well in any concours") and having =
it judged to AH Club USA concours standards, or more likely declined to be =
judged.=C2=A0 Think he might seek legal remedy?=C2=A0 I wouldn't want t=
o be the guy who sold it to him.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-size:large"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size=
:large">=C2=A0=C2=A0</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"=
ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 11:01=E2=80=AFAM <<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:healeys-request@autox.team.net";>healeys-request@autox.team.ne=
t</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"=
><div class=3D"msg3035444886437018827">Send Healeys mailing list submission=
s to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:healeys@autox.team.net"; targe=
t=3D"_blank">healeys@autox.team.net</a><br>
<br>
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/listin=
fo/healeys" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/mail=
man/listinfo/healeys</a><br>
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:healeys-request@autox.team.ne=
t" target=3D"_blank">healeys-request@autox.team.net</a><br>
<br>
You can reach the person managing the list at<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:healeys-owner@autox.team.net"=
target=3D"_blank">healeys-owner@autox.team.net</a><br>
<br>
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>
than "Re: Contents of Healeys digest..."<br>
Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A01. Re: Recent 100M on BAT (Mark Bradakis)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A02. Re: Recent 100M on BAT (Bob Spidell)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A03. Re: Recent 100M on BAT (<a href=3D"mailto:rfbegani@gmail.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">rfbegani@gmail.com</a>)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A04. Re: Recent 100M on BAT (David Masucci)<br>
<br><br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From:=C2=A0Mark Brad=
akis <<a href=3D"mailto:mark@bradakis.com"; target=3D"_blank">mark@bradak=
is.com</a>><br>To:=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:healeys@autox.team.net"; target=
=3D"_blank">healeys@autox.team.net</a><br>Cc:=C2=A0<br>Bcc:=C2=A0<br>Date:=
=C2=A0Sat, 16 Dec 2023 13:56:44 -0700<br>Subject:=C2=A0Re: [Healeys] Recent=
100M on BAT<br>On 12/16/23 9:55 AM, Curtis Arndt via Healeys wrote:<br>
> Regarding the 100M Registry, Lynn Martin and I volunteered to take ove=
r <br>
> the registry, but after several hours of discussion, the cost of doing=
<br>
> so came up and we decided that the price of admission was way too high=
<br>
> for something with little to no financial gain and a lot of work invol=
ved.<br>
<br>
Try running Team Net for 30+ years!<br>
<br>
mjb.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From:=C2=A0Bob Spide=
ll <<a href=3D"mailto:bspidell@comcast.net"; target=3D"_blank">bspidell@c=
omcast.net</a>><br>To:=C2=A0HealeyRick <<a href=3D"mailto:healeyrik@g=
mail.com" target=3D"_blank">healeyrik@gmail.com</a>><br>Cc:=C2=A0Michael=
Oritt <<a href=3D"mailto:michael.oritt@gmail.com"; target=3D"_blank">mic=
hael.oritt@gmail.com</a>>, "<a href=3D"mailto:healeys@autox.team.ne=
t" target=3D"_blank">healeys@autox.team.net</a>" <<a href=3D"mailto=
:healeys@autox.team.net" target=3D"_blank">healeys@autox.team.net</a>><b=
r>Bcc:=C2=A0<br>Date:=C2=A0Sat, 16 Dec 2023 16:43:03 -0800<br>Subject:=C2=
=A0Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT<br><u></u>
=20
=20
=20
<div>
Rick,<br>
<br>
Last I heard, the owner was working with BaT to present another
listing for this car (or did it sell?). If it's presented
truthfully, as having a replacement chassis and possibly carbs and
distributor I'd have no issues with it; it is, essentially, an '=
;M
equivalent' with a (likely) reduced price. The commenters did a
potential buyer a favor; if s/he knows what s/he got, and is happy
with it, that's great.<br>
<br>
Bob<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 12/16/2023 9:31 AM, HealeyRick
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
=20
<div dir=3D"ltr">Bob,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As I prepare to write this month's &qu=
ot;Auction Report"
for the <i>Healey Marque </i>this 100M discussion has been
really helpful and interesting. I think your comment=C2=A0 "=
I was
surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and distributor slide
"=C2=A0 raises a great question of what exactly is the 100M
certificate certifying? Bill Meade has written an article on
what needs to be presented to be certified.=C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=
=3D"https://www.100mregistry.com/PROTECTING_YOUR_100M_Feb_2013.pdf"; target=
=3D"_blank">https://www.100mregistry.com/PROTECTING_YOUR_100M_Feb_2013.pdf=
=C2=A0</a>=C2=A0
=C2=A0But it seems to me it mainly focuses on the body parts that
it left the factory with. I find it interesting there's no
necessity for pictures of the engine number.=C2=A0 And even if al=
l
the body parts, carbs, and distributor aren't there, Bill say=
s
in the article=C2=A0 "If some of these items are missing, le=
t the
Registry
know. It normally does not prevent registration provided
enough ID points are present."=C2=A0 So my impression, which=
I'll
try to verify with Bill, is the certification is focused on
the question whether this is the car that left the factory
that matches the BMIHT certificate saying it had a louvered
hood and not so much on whether it still has all the original
parts an M would have come with.</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I think one of the benefits of the BaT co=
mments for
buyers (and probably not so much for sellers) is pointing out
major deficiencies with an offering. Some buyer might have
paid way more this car than it would be worth if not for the
"savage" comments.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Happy Healeydays</div>
<div>Rick Neville</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at
11:46=E2=80=AFAM Bob Spidell <<a href=3D"mailto:bspidell@comca=
st.net" target=3D"_blank">bspidell@comcast.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div> I think that's indisputable (I unintentionally neglecte=
d
to mention that aspect). That, and the fact the kits were
selling made a case for selling the M (these days, that
would take an army of marketing people to figure out, with
lots of 'data' of course, and maybe some AI). Doesn'=
;t negate
the strong showing of taking, IIRC, 3 cars off the lot--or
was that the Bonneville cars?--hanging a few fancy bits on
it and giving the bespoke Ferraris, Jags, Astons, Mercedeses
etc. a run for their money (the Healeys' rugged simplicity
likely helped). DMH was a brilliant marketer and salesman;
he spotted the 'niche' hole between lower--performance
MGs--we're talking TCs and TDs, not Bs and Cs--and
higher-performance but much more expensive Jaguars and
plugged it. History says he drove cross-county in the US to
gauge the market; probably why he made overdrive an option
from the get-go, for the wide-open US highways. I don't kno=
w
Triumph history that well, was the TR2 a contemporary of the
100?<br>
<br>
How many times have you been asked what your Healey is
worth--usually by a 'not-a-car-person'--and you've =
replied
'Whatever someone will pay me for it' (then, if the per=
son
seems genuinely interested I may give a run-down of the
contemporary market; these days 'not so good'). It'=
s the
same with other marques; witness the number of Chevelle SS
'tribute' cars going across the block at auctions. Genu=
ine
Ms can command a 50-100% premium over comparable 100s; hence
the intensity of the interest and critique. Did you watch
the BaT auction? It was pretty savage and enlightening, to
me; I was surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and
distributor slide (maybe he was tired of doing the registry
thing). <br>
<br>
From the late, great Gary Anderson:<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/=
uploads/2019/03/The-Heritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf" target=3D"_blank"=
>https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-He=
ritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 12/16/2023 6:46 AM, Michael Oritt wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,255)"=
>Some
feel that since DMH knew he was going to change over
to a new car (the 100-6) he figured out a clever
marketing=C2=A0ploy to get rid of what might otherwise ha=
ve
become a less-than-desirable=C2=A0inventory of late
production 100's by outfitting some of the cars with
the snazzy M upgrade.=C2=A0 If so it was probably never h=
is
intention nor in his comprehension to produce=C2=A0what h=
as
ironically become a very special Healey second only to
the 100-S in collectibility.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,255)"=
><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,255)"=
>Best--Michael
Oritt</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Dec 16, 2023
at 1:31=E2=80=AFAM Bob Spidell <<a href=3D"mailto:bspi=
dell@comcast.net" target=3D"_blank">bspidell@comcast.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div> The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the
optional branch extractor--as opposed to a stock
BN2's 90HP. That's a 22% increase in power; I&#=
39;d call
that significant. Also, how do you 'hang' a cam=
shaft
and pistons on an engine (the mechanics were
supposed to pull the engine, but if DMH and Geoff
weren't around they'd cheat and do the mods in
situ)?<br>
<br>
I think at least part of the value of an M is that
it made an appearance at the Healey factory,
possibly with DMH and/or Geoff in attendance, as
opposed to just coming off the Austin assembly line.
Also, the modifications were, for the most part, the
same as made to the cars that ran at LeMans in '52
('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th) overall. When
customers started asking for the same modifications
DMH first sold a kit, then the complete car (anyone
remember 'Race on Sunday, sell on Monday?').<br=
>
<br>
I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars
command a significant price premium (hence why of
the original, documented 640 cars only 3,000
remain). <br>
<br>
bs<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"auto">I'm not an "M" guy re=
ally because
as someone mentioned there isn't that much to
hanging the "modification " parts on any =
100.=C2=A0
<div dir=3D"auto">If the "M" designation =
involved
significant performance modifications,=C2=A0 say
like an "M" series BMW, which could not=
be
easily copied, then I would consider them be
very special.
<div dir=3D"auto">I understand that Mr Meade has
now sold his "M" so would not be surp=
rised
to see the "Registry" fade away.</div=
>
<div dir=3D"auto">Just my opinion.=C2=A0</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">M</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri., Dec.
15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via
Healeys, <<a href=3D"mailto:healeys@autox.team=
.net" target=3D"_blank">healeys@autox.team.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<pre id=3D"m_3035444886437018827m_1603492253125=
454553m_-4413793566936237617m_-8948067483587624533tw-target-text" dir=3D"lt=
r" style=3D"text-align:left"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:aria=
l,helvetica,sans-serif" lang=3D"en">What makes a 100M?=20
Very good question and not easy to answer.
In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is s=
ignificantly higher than the normal 100,=20
is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M i=
s nothing special. It's a modified 100 and=20
no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be suc=
h a major modification for me, as would a=20
conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburett=
ors, etc. This would be simply no longer a=20
Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the=
same money. But I have to admit, for me=20
the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It=
9;s a special model with a little more=20
horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW o=
r a AMG Mercedes.
Josef Eckert
Germany
</span></pre>
<p style=3D"margin:0px"><span style=3D"font-fam=
ily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);text-decorat=
ion:none">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px"><span style=3D"font-fam=
ily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);text-decorat=
ion:none">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px">=C2=A0</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px">=C2=A0</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px">-----Original-Nachricht=
-----</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px">Betreff: Re: [Healeys]
Recent 100M on BAT</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px">Datum:
2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px">Von: "Bob Spidell&=
quot;
<<a href=3D"mailto:bspidell@comcast.net"; r=
el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">bspidell@comcast.net</a>></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px">An: "HealeyRick&qu=
ot; <<a href=3D"mailto:healeyrik@gmail.com"; rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D=
"_blank">healeyrik@gmail.com</a>></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px">=C2=A0</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px">=C2=A0</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font:12px Arial,=
Helvetica,sans-serif">Note the
Registry will also certify 'Le Mans
Conversions,' which may be what Kent'=
s
nasty is/was. Some have noted you can
build a 'better M' with aftermarket p=
arts
(Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.). <br>
<br>
I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules
makes a 100 chassis, but I'd be somewhat
more sympathetic to that, but not so much
hanging an M body and parts on a BN1 (a
BN2, <em>maybe</em>). The main problem I
see is an earnest owner may sell a
conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with f=
ull
disclosure, but an owner or two down the
road the 'Tribute' tag has been
conveniently forgotten (I'm not all in on
'tribute' anything, be they cars or r=
ock
bands).<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick
wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<div dir=3D"ltr">This is all hypothesis
based on speculation so take it with
that caveat.=C2=A0 Let's say one had =
a
rusty factory 100M that was so bad it
needed a new frame.=C2=A0 How hard would =
it
be to transfer the 100M body parts
over to a solid BN1 chassis along with
the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The
100M Registry seems to focus mostly on
the original body parts and cockpit
surrounds to certify a car. Even cars
with non-original engines have been
registered. I'm pretty certain Kent
Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. S=
o
is the BaT car still an M?=C2=A0 Some
pretty valuable race cars have been
crashed and fitted with=C2=A0new chassis
and still bring big money at auction.=C2=
=A0
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>To me, what makes an M an M is
the motor.=C2=A0 If an M no longer has
its original motor, or equal
replacement, it has lost its
character as an M. Otherwise, it's =
a
BN2 with a louvered hood. It's
almost like if a Sunbeam Tiger blew
its motor and it was replaced with
an Alpine motor. Sure, it's got the
right serial number on the unibody,
but it's not much of a Tiger
anymore. The BaT car with what
appears to be non-original carbs and
distributor caused me concern. Who
would remove those from an original
M motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop th=
e
valve cover, remove the rockers and
put a dial indicator on the pushrods
so we can see if there is still a
100M cam in the lump!</div>
<div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>Happy Healeydays,</div>
<div>Rick Neville</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On
Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05=E2=80=AFPM Bo=
b
Spidell <<a href=3D"mailto:bspidell@=
comcast.net" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">bspidell@comcast.net</a>&=
gt;
wrote:</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex">
<div>Excellent report, thank you. <br>
<br>
I was one of the commenters on
BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but,
since I have a BN2/100M I'm not
familiar with BN1 differences and
could only point out obvious
differences with my car (which was
completely original as far as I
can tell, except for extensive
body work). One thing that was
somewhat disturbing to me is that
the Registry certified this car,
while noting some major anomalies
(the carbs, for instance, looked
to be new and didn't have the han=
d
scribing like my car). <br>
<br>
The other thing that interested me
is, how do you value this car?
Yes, it's a very nice car,
probably a good driver but, IMO,
its value <em>should</em> be less
than a comparably restored,
original BN1 or BN2. And, what did
the previous owner know, or should
have known about this car? How do
you present it for sale; as a BN1
with 'M bits?' It would need =
the
proverbial asterisk alongside the
page title.<br>
<br>
Bob<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and
T Miller wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<div style=3D"font-family:inherit;f=
ont-size:inherit;color:inherit;background-color:transparent">
<div>If you were following it
recently,=C2=A0 you might find =
my
observations interesting.=C2=A0
So I went down to Michael's
motor cars to help him
determine if the 100m indeed
has a BN1 chassis. Here is
what I found.</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>It has the BN1 inner
fenders with the rolled
pressings. It has the BN1
front brake hose frame mount
the is less pronounced
welded BN1 bracket, as the
later cars have a bolted on
bracket. The front shock
towers have no evidence of
being replaced and show the
factory welds. The gearbox
mount shows
non-original/factory welds
as if it were replaced to
accommodate the BN2 mount.=C2=
=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>What I found most
interesting is that where a
BN1 has two OD relays
mounted under the dash, it
took shining a light it
different directions to just
make out the slight evidence
of filled holes (4 of then
for the two relays). And I
was able to reach inside the
vent just below that area
with my fingers and feel the
welds and welding wire that
was used to fill those 4
holes. I can tell you
someone took great care to
try and make those holes
seem as they never existed.=C2=
=A0
Along with that, where a BN2
would have the single OD
relay attached to the
firewall with machine screws
screwed into welded captive
nuts on the firewall,=C2=A0 you
can see plain sheet screws
were used to mount it in
what would be a BN2 relay
position.=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>I also feel the engine
tag is a repo because of the
lighter stamping. Originals
tend to have the numbers/
letters stamped with a
deeper end result.=C2=A0 I took
my repo engine tag along to
compare, and they appeared
identical in the stampings.
The body/ bath tag and VIN
plate appear original. Now
that doesn't mean that the
engine isn't the correct M
engine, because there could
be many reasons why the
engine tag was replaced.
Anyone who drove a stock 100
compared to a 100M can
attest to the difference in
power, and Mike stated that
it indeed has that M power.=C2=
=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>The boot lid shows no
evidence of the stay bracket
being swapped off another
lid, and if you look closely
you can see that the boot
shows some previous
age/life. I'd believe it to
be original. I could not
make out any evidence of the
bonnet number being sliced
in from a M bonnet, but I
will say that the underside
of the bonnet seemed
suspiciously clean and
prestine. I couldn't detect
any age like the boot, but
that would be for someone
else to decide.=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>Mike had asked me if the
cold air box was original,=C2=
=A0
and I simply don't have tha=
t
experience to know. I have
anyways heard if it looks
old, it's original.=C2=A0 I=
t does
indeed look to have some
age, so?</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>I feel at some point in
this car's life someone wen=
t
to some effort to try and
conceal that these 100M
parts were reinstalled on a
BN1 chassis. Another
interesting note is that
there was an attempt to fill
the holes where a BN1
chassis plate is fitted on
the frame rail. Perhaps the
person didn't realize that
the holes continued over to
the BN2's, and thought they
were erasing evidence of a
BN1 chassis?=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>With all that said, Mike
is simply trying to
represent the car correctly.
The car is a very nice car!
Paint is very nice, car is
straight, and gaps look
good. Interior is very nice,
and looks to be a very good
car all around. I didn't
drive the car, but Mike has
years of experience under
his belt, so I'd trust his
opinions on that. With the
quality of the restoration,=C2=
=A0
it is surprising that the
front frame to shroud
brackets were not welded to
the frame. Chrome looks
good, and I'd think winning
some trophies at a popular
vote car would not be an
issue.=C2=A0</div>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>The Millers<br>
=C2=A0<br>
"Always drive them, but
remember each drive in an
antique car is a test drive."=
;</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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</div>
<br><br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From:=C2=A0<<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:rfbegani@gmail.com"; target=3D"_blank">rfbegani@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;<br>To:=C2=A0<<a href=3D"mailto:josef-eckert@t-online.de"; target=3D"_b=
lank">josef-eckert@t-online.de</a>><br>Cc:=C2=A0<<a href=3D"mailto:he=
aleys@autox.team.net" target=3D"_blank">healeys@autox.team.net</a>><br>B=
cc:=C2=A0<br>Date:=C2=A0Sun, 17 Dec 2023 05:06:32 -0500<br>Subject:=C2=A0Re=
: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT<br><div lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"overflow-wra=
p: break-word;"><div class=3D"m_3035444886437018827WordSection1"><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:16pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">=
Dear Josef:<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:16pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:16pt;font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif">Your comments are the same in the USA especially in Florida where t=
here are large numbers of retired people.=C2=A0 My good friend and Presiden=
t of our British Car Club Hermann Schuller formerly of Germany has said tha=
t younger people want Japanese or European sports cars.=C2=A0 It is the sam=
e for those who enjoy boating.=C2=A0 Sailors today are 55 to 80 years old.=
=C2=A0 I had to give away my 1967 28-foot sailboat in good condition at our=
summer home on Lake Michigan as younger boaters want speed and comfort.=C2=
=A0 I still have another younger 28-foot sailboat in Punta Gorda, Florida a=
nd will continue to sail in accordance with the agreement with my wife that=
I will not sail alone.=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><span style=3D"font-size:16pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:16pt;f=
ont-family:Arial,sans-serif">Also, our British Car Club of SW Florida is ve=
ry large and growing thanks to the efforts of Hermann who revived the club.=
=C2=A0 He is a born salesman and a lover of old sports cars.<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:16pt;font-family:=
Arial,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:16pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Regards,<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:16pt;font-fa=
mily:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><span style=3D"font-size:16pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Bob Begani<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:16pt;=
font-family:Arial,sans-serif">67 BJ8<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:16pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u=
>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:16=
pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:16pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u>=
</u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><div><div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bot=
tom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt=
0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Healeys <<a href=3D"mailto=
:healeys-bounces@autox.team.net" target=3D"_blank">healeys-bounces@autox.te=
am.net</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>josef-eckert--- via Healeys<br><b>Sent:<=
/b> Saturday, December 16, 2023 1:15 PM<br><b>To:</b> Bob Spidell <<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:bspidell@comcast.net"; target=3D"_blank">bspidell@comcast.net</=
a>>; Michael Oritt <<a href=3D"mailto:michael.oritt@gmail.com"; target=
=3D"_blank">michael.oritt@gmail.com</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto=
:healeys@autox.team.net" target=3D"_blank">healeys@autox.team.net</a><br><b=
>Subject:</b> Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT<u></u><u></u></p></div></div=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p style=3D"margin:0in"><sp=
an class=3D"m_3035444886437018827rynqvb"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-si=
ze:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">As far as I can see here =
in Europe, the market for Austin-Healeys and comparable vehicles from the 1=
950s has collapsed extremely.</span></span><span class=3D"m_303544488643701=
8827hwtze"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif;color:black"> </span></span><span class=3D"m_3035444886437018827rynq=
vb"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;=
color:black">It's like the pre-war vehicles.</span></span><span class=
=3D"m_3035444886437018827hwtze"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;f=
ont-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black"> </span></span><span class=3D"m_30=
35444886437018827rynqvb"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fam=
ily:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">They can no longer keep up with today'=
;s traffic and on motorways they are quite problematic due to the high traf=
fic density and the many trucks that also recklessly swerve to overtake.</s=
pan></span><span class=3D"m_3035444886437018827hwtze"><span lang=3D"EN" sty=
le=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black"> </span></sp=
an><span class=3D"m_3035444886437018827rynqvb"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"f=
ont-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">A 100M and also a 1=
00 are no longer in demand.</span></span><span class=3D"m_30354448864370188=
27hwtze"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-s=
erif;color:black"> </span></span><span class=3D"m_3035444886437018827rynqvb=
"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;co=
lor:black">The clientele that still knows Austin-Healey from her past is al=
most extinct.</span></span><span class=3D"m_3035444886437018827hwtze"><span=
lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:bla=
ck"> </span></span><span class=3D"m_3035444886437018827rynqvb"><span lang=
=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">H=
ardly anyone has met Donald Healey here.</span></span><span class=3D"m_3035=
444886437018827hwtze"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family=
:Arial,sans-serif;color:black"> </span></span><span class=3D"m_303544488643=
7018827rynqvb"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,=
sans-serif;color:black">I'm 66 years old now and didn't know him ei=
ther.</span></span><span class=3D"m_3035444886437018827hwtze"><span lang=3D=
"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black"> </s=
pan></span><span class=3D"m_3035444886437018827rynqvb"><span lang=3D"EN" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">I saw Geoff=
once before he died, but we knew Margot quite well, having met through fri=
ends.</span></span><span class=3D"m_3035444886437018827hwtze"><span lang=3D=
"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black"> </s=
pan></span><span class=3D"m_3035444886437018827rynqvb"><span lang=3D"EN" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">But back to=
the 100M.</span></span><span class=3D"m_3035444886437018827hwtze"><span la=
ng=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black"=
> </span></span><span class=3D"m_3035444886437018827rynqvb"><span lang=3D"E=
N" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">Hardly=
anyone here knows the difference between a 100 with a LeMans kit and a 100=
M.</span></span><span class=3D"m_3035444886437018827hwtze"><span lang=3D"EN=
" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black"> </span=
></span><span class=3D"m_3035444886437018827rynqvb"><span lang=3D"EN" style=
=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">All of these a=
re then usually offered as 100 Le Mans.</span></span><span class=3D"m_30354=
44886437018827hwtze"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:=
Arial,sans-serif;color:black"> </span></span><span class=3D"m_3035444886437=
018827rynqvb"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,s=
ans-serif;color:black">If a genuine 100M is actually offered, the price is =
slightly higher than for a comparable 100, but not by a factor of 2. Nobody=
actually pays that here.</span></span><span class=3D"m_3035444886437018827=
hwtze"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-ser=
if;color:black"> There is also non who would pay 100K$ for a 100 or 100M. <=
/span></span><span class=3D"m_3035444886437018827rynqvb"><span lang=3D"EN" =
style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">But as I =
said, Austin-Healeys are slow sellers and the 3000 BJ8 Ph2 is most in deman=
d because it offers just enough comfort.</span></span><span class=3D"m_3035=
444886437018827hwtze"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family=
:Arial,sans-serif;color:black"> </span></span><span class=3D"m_303544488643=
7018827rynqvb"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,=
sans-serif;color:black">But younger people don't want these old cars at=
all.</span></span><span class=3D"m_3035444886437018827hwtze"><span lang=3D=
"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black"> </s=
pan></span><span class=3D"m_3035444886437018827rynqvb"><span lang=3D"EN" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">They are lo=
oking for a BMW, Porsche or something else from the 70s or 80s that also of=
fers more safety and comfort and that they know from their youth. Lower pri=
ced british cars like MG Bs are also out. They are too expensive compared t=
o a Mazda MX-5, or Jaguar XK8 which are definitely the better cars compared=
.</span></span><u></u><u></u></p><p style=3D"margin:0in"><span class=3D"m_3=
035444886437018827rynqvb"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">Btw.: The Austin-Healey clubs here have =
gotten pretty tired. The beautiful events like International healey Weekend=
s that were offered 20 years ago are no longer offered in thre former glanc=
e for a long time. There are hardly any active people willing to do work fo=
r the clubs anymore. Those who do it are also a good 70 years old and what =
is then done is not really inviting. Many people now stay away from these e=
vents which are expensive, but not inviting.</span></span><u></u><u></u></p=
><p style=3D"margin:0in"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sa=
ns-serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p><p style=3D"margin:0in=
"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">J=
osef Eckert</span><u></u><u></u></p><p style=3D"margin:0in"><span style=3D"=
font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">Germany</span><u><=
/u><u></u></p><p style=3D"margin:0in">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><p style=3D"m=
argin:0in">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u><=
/u></p></div></div><br><br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>F=
rom:=C2=A0David Masucci <<a href=3D"mailto:dmasucci@charter.net"; target=
=3D"_blank">dmasucci@charter.net</a>><br>To:=C2=A0"<a href=3D"mailt=
o:josef-eckert@t-online.de" target=3D"_blank">josef-eckert@t-online.de</a>&=
quot; <<a href=3D"mailto:josef-eckert@t-online.de"; target=3D"_blank">jos=
ef-eckert@t-online.de</a>><br>Cc:=C2=A0Bob Spidell <<a href=3D"mailto=
:bspidell@comcast.net" target=3D"_blank">bspidell@comcast.net</a>>, Mich=
ael Oritt <<a href=3D"mailto:michael.oritt@gmail.com"; target=3D"_blank">=
michael.oritt@gmail.com</a>>, Ahealey help <<a href=3D"mailto:healeys=
@autox.team.net" target=3D"_blank">healeys@autox.team.net</a>><br>Bcc:=
=C2=A0<br>Date:=C2=A0Sun, 17 Dec 2023 08:10:57 -0500<br>Subject:=C2=A0Re: [=
Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT<br><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">Al=
l of this is inevitable, and not a =C2=A0bad thing. Let=E2=80=99s just cont=
inue to enjoy what we can while we can. There will be other passions that w=
ill entice follow-on generations to enjoy memories from their youth.=C2=A0<=
div><br></div><div>Dave<br><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Dec 1=
6, 2023, at 1:14 PM, josef-eckert--- via Healeys <<a href=3D"mailto:heal=
eys@autox.team.net" target=3D"_blank">healeys@autox.team.net</a>> wrote:=
</div><br><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:ar=
ial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;text-decoration:none"><span lang=3D=
"en"><span><span>As far as I can see here in Europe, the market for Austin-=
Healeys and comparable vehicles from the 1950s has collapsed extremely.</sp=
an></span> <span><span>It's like the pre-war vehicles.</span></span> <s=
pan><span>They can no longer keep up with today's traffic and on motorw=
ays they are quite problematic due to the high traffic density and the many=
trucks that also recklessly swerve to overtake.</span></span> <span><span>=
A 100M and also a 100 are no longer in demand.</span></span> <span><span>Th=
e clientele that still knows Austin-Healey from her past is almost extinct.=
</span></span> <span><span>Hardly anyone has met Donald Healey here.</span>=
</span> <span><span>I'm 66 years old now and didn't know him either=
.</span></span> <span><span>I saw Geoff once before he died, but we knew Ma=
rgot quite well, having met through friends.</span></span> <span><span>But =
back to the 100M.</span></span> <span><span>Hardly anyone here knows the di=
fference between a 100 with a LeMans kit and a 100M.</span></span> <span><s=
pan>All of these are then usually offered as 100 Le Mans.</span></span> <sp=
an><span>If a genuine 100M is actually offered, the price is slightly highe=
r than for a comparable 100, but not by a factor of 2. Nobody actually pays=
that here.</span></span> There is also non who would pay 100K$ for a 100 o=
r 100M. <span><span>But as I said, Austin-Healeys are slow sellers and the =
3000 BJ8 Ph2 is most in demand because it offers just enough comfort.</span=
></span> <span><span>But younger people don't want these old cars at al=
l.</span></span> <span><span>They are looking for a BMW, Porsche or somethi=
ng else from the 70s or 80s that also offers more safety and comfort and th=
at they know from their youth. Lower priced british cars like MG Bs are als=
o out. They are too expensive compared to a Mazda MX-5, or Jaguar XK8 which=
are definitely the better cars compared.<br></span></span></span></span></=
div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:10pt;text-decoration:none"><span lang=3D"en"><span><span=
>Btw.: The Austin-Healey clubs here have gotten pretty tired. The beautiful=
events like International healey Weekends that were offered 20 years ago a=
re no longer offered in thre former glance for a long time. There are hardl=
y any active people willing to do work for the clubs anymore. Those who do =
it are also a good 70 years old and what is then done is not really invitin=
g. Many people now stay away from these events which are expensive, but not=
inviting.</span></span></span></span></div><p style=3D"margin:0px"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;text-decorati=
on:none">=C2=A0</span></p><div style=3D"margin:0px"><span style=3D"font-fam=
ily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;text-decoration:none">Josef E=
ckert</span></div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:aria=
l,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;text-decoration:none">Germany</span><=
/div><p style=3D"margin:0px">=C2=A0</p><p style=3D"margin:0px">=C2=A0</p><p=
style=3D"margin:0px">=C2=A0</p><div style=3D"margin:0px">-----Original-Nac=
hricht-----</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 10=
0M on BAT</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">Datum: 2023-12-16T17:41:57+0100</d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0px">Von: "Bob Spidell" <<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:bspidell@comcast.net" target=3D"_blank">bspidell@comcast.net</a>></=
div><div style=3D"margin:0px">An: "Michael Oritt" <<a href=3D"=
mailto:michael.oritt@gmail.com"; target=3D"_blank">michael.oritt@gmail.com</=
a>></div><p style=3D"margin:0px">=C2=A0</p><p style=3D"margin:0px">=C2=
=A0</p><p style=3D"margin:0px">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal=
;font-stretch:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial,He=
lvetica,sans-serif">I think that's indisputable (I unintentionally negl=
ected to mention that aspect). That, and the fact the kits were selling mad=
e a case for selling the M (these days, that would take an army of marketin=
g people to figure out, with lots of 'data' of course, and maybe so=
me AI). Doesn't negate the strong showing of taking, IIRC, 3 cars off t=
he lot--or was that the Bonneville cars?--hanging a few fancy bits on it an=
d giving the bespoke Ferraris, Jags, Astons, Mercedeses etc. a run for thei=
r money (the Healeys' rugged simplicity likely helped). DMH was a brill=
iant marketer and salesman; he spotted the 'niche' hole between low=
er--performance MGs--we're talking TCs and TDs, not Bs and Cs--and high=
er-performance but much more expensive Jaguars and plugged it. History says=
he drove cross-county in the US to gauge the market; probably why he made =
overdrive an option from the get-go, for the wide-open US highways. I don&#=
39;t know Triumph history that well, was the TR2 a contemporary of the 100?=
<br><br>How many times have you been asked what your Healey is worth--usual=
ly by a 'not-a-car-person'--and you've replied 'Whatever so=
meone will pay me for it' (then, if the person seems genuinely interest=
ed I may give a run-down of the contemporary market; these days 'not so=
good'). It's the same with other marques; witness the number of Ch=
evelle SS 'tribute' cars going across the block at auctions. Genuin=
e Ms can command a 50-100% premium over comparable 100s; hence the intensit=
y of the interest and critique. Did you watch the BaT auction? It was prett=
y savage and enlightening, to me; I was surprised Bill let the incorrect ca=
rbs and distributor slide (maybe he was tired of doing the registry thing).=
<br><br>From the late, great Gary Anderson:<br><br><a href=3D"https://aust=
inhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Heritage-of-the=
-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf" target=3D"_blank">https://austinhealeyconcoursregist=
ry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Heritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf<=
/a><br><br><br>
<div>On 12/16/2023 6:46 AM, Michael Oritt wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,255)">Some feel that =
since DMH knew he was going to change over to a new car (the 100-6) he figu=
red out a clever marketing=C2=A0ploy to get rid of what might otherwise hav=
e become a less-than-desirable=C2=A0inventory of late production 100's =
by outfitting some of the cars with the snazzy M upgrade.=C2=A0 If so it wa=
s probably never his intention nor in his comprehension to produce=C2=A0wha=
t has ironically become a very special Healey second only to the 100-S in c=
ollectibility.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,255)">=C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,255)">Best--Michael O=
ritt</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 1:31=E2=80=AF=
AM Bob Spidell <<a href=3D"mailto:bspidell@comcast.net"; target=3D"_blank=
">bspidell@comcast.net</a>> wrote:</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the optional branch extracto=
r--as opposed to a stock BN2's 90HP. That's a 22% increase in power=
; I'd call that significant. Also, how do you 'hang' a camshaft=
and pistons on an engine (the mechanics were supposed to pull the engine, =
but if DMH and Geoff weren't around they'd cheat and do the mods in=
situ)?<br><br>I think at least part of the value of an M is that it made a=
n appearance at the Healey factory, possibly with DMH and/or Geoff in atten=
dance, as opposed to just coming off the Austin assembly line. Also, the mo=
difications were, for the most part, the same as made to the cars that ran =
at LeMans in '52 ('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th) overall. When cu=
stomers started asking for the same modifications DMH first sold a kit, the=
n the complete car (anyone remember 'Race on Sunday, sell on Monday?=
9;).<br><br>I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars command=
a significant price premium (hence why of the original, documented 640 car=
s only 3,000 remain). <br><br>bs<br><br><br>
<div>On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<div dir=3D"auto">I'm not an "M" guy really because as someon=
e mentioned there isn't that much to hanging the "modification &qu=
ot; parts on any 100.=C2=A0
<div dir=3D"auto">If the "M" designation involved significant per=
formance modifications,=C2=A0 say like an "M" series BMW, which c=
ould not be easily copied, then I would consider them be very special.
<div dir=3D"auto">I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M"=
so would not be surprised to see the "Registry" fade away.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Just my opinion.=C2=A0</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">M</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. jos=
ef-eckert--- via Healeys, <<a href=3D"mailto:healeys@autox.team.net"; tar=
get=3D"_blank">healeys@autox.team.net</a>> wrote:</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<pre dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"text-align:left"><span lang=3D"en" style=3D"font-=
size:12pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">What makes a 100M? Very g=
ood question and not easy to answer. In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, =
especially as the price category is significantly higher than the normal 10=
0, is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100=
M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and no longer an M. But this =
is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major modification fo=
r me, as would a conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to =
a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a Genuine 100M. I=
would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. Bu=
t I have to admit, for me the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated =
for what the car is. It's a special model with a little more horsepower=
, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG Me=
rcedes. Josef Eckert Germany </span></pre><p style=3D"margin:0px"><span sty=
le=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;text-decoration=
:none">=C2=A0</span></p><p style=3D"margin:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:=
arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;text-decoration:none">=C2=A0</spa=
n></p><p style=3D"margin:0px">=C2=A0</p><p style=3D"margin:0px">=C2=A0</p><=
div style=3D"margin:0px">-----Original-Nachricht-----</div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px">Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT</div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0px">Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100</div><div style=3D"margin:0px">Von:=
"Bob Spidell" <<a href=3D"mailto:bspidell@comcast.net"; rel=3D=
"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">bspidell@comcast.net</a>></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0px">An: "HealeyRick" <<a href=3D"mailto:healeyrik@=
gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">healeyrik@gmail.com</a>>=
</div><p style=3D"margin:0px">=C2=A0</p><p style=3D"margin:0px">=C2=A0</p><=
p style=3D"margin:0px">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal=
;font-stretch:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial,He=
lvetica,sans-serif">Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conver=
sions,' which may be what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you =
can build a 'better M' with aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head=
, SBC, etc.). <br><br>I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 1=
00 chassis, but I'd be somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so mu=
ch hanging an M body and parts on a BN1 (a BN2, <em>maybe</em>). The main p=
roblem I see is an earnest owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfei=
t') with full disclosure, but an owner or two down the road the 'Tr=
ibute' tag has been conveniently forgotten (I'm not all in on '=
tribute' anything, be they cars or rock bands).<br><br><br>
<div>On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<div dir=3D"ltr">This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it wit=
h that caveat.=C2=A0 Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so=
bad it needed a new frame.=C2=A0 How hard would it be to transfer the 100M=
body parts over to a solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chass=
is plate? The 100M Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body part=
s and cockpit surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engin=
es have been registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was=
on the registry. So is the BaT car still an M?=C2=A0 Some pretty valuable =
race cars have been crashed and fitted with=C2=A0new chassis and still brin=
g big money at auction.=C2=A0
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>To me, what makes an M an M is the motor.=C2=A0 If an M no longer has =
its original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an M=
. Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a=
Sunbeam Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sur=
e, it's got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not mu=
ch of a Tiger anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be non-original car=
bs and distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an origin=
al M motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers=
and put a dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a=
100M cam in the lump!</div>
<div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>Happy Healeydays,</div>
<div>Rick Neville</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05=E2=80=AF=
PM Bob Spidell <<a href=3D"mailto:bspidell@comcast.net"; rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">bspidell@comcast.net</a>> wrote:</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>Excellent report, thank you. <br><br>I was one of the commenters on Ba=
T--I joined BaT to comment--but, since I have a BN2/100M I'm not famili=
ar with BN1 differences and could only point out obvious differences with m=
y car (which was completely original as far as I can tell, except for exten=
sive body work). One thing that was somewhat disturbing to me is that the R=
egistry certified this car, while noting some major anomalies (the carbs, f=
or instance, looked to be new and didn't have the hand scribing like my=
car). <br><br>The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this=
car? Yes, it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its v=
alue <em>should</em> be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN=
2. And, what did the previous owner know, or should have known about this c=
ar? How do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It woul=
d need the proverbial asterisk alongside the page title.<br><br>Bob<br><br>=
<br><br>
<div>On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<div style=3D"font-family:inherit;font-size:inherit;color:inherit;backgroun=
d-color:transparent">
<div>If you were following it recently,=C2=A0 you might find my observation=
s interesting.=C2=A0 So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him=
determine if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.</div=
>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1=
front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as=
the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have no ev=
idence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mount show=
s non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate the BN2 =
mount.=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays mo=
unted under the dash, it took shining a light it different directions to ju=
st make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two rela=
ys). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area with my f=
ingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those 4 ho=
les. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those holes see=
m as they never existed.=C2=A0 Along with that, where a BN2 would have the =
single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed into w=
elded captive nuts on the firewall,=C2=A0 you can see plain sheet screws we=
re used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position.=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping. =
Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end resul=
t.=C2=A0 I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared iden=
tical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear original. N=
ow that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M engine, be=
cause there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone w=
ho drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in pow=
er, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power.=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off a=
nother lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows some pr=
evious age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out an=
y evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will=
say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and prestin=
e. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for someo=
ne else to decide.=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original,=C2=A0 and I simply=
don't have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks o=
ld, it's original.=C2=A0 It does indeed look to have some age, so?</div=
>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effor=
t to try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassi=
s. Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the holes =
where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the person d=
idn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thoug=
ht they were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car correct=
ly. The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is straight, and ga=
ps look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car all ar=
ound. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience under hi=
s belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the rest=
oration,=C2=A0 it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets wer=
e not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning som=
e trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue.=C2=A0</div>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>The Millers<br>=C2=A0<br>"Always drive them, but remember each dr=
ive in an antique car is a test drive."</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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