--===============3458554862358870170==
boundary="----=_Part_477834_959000639.1540941878394"
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Well then please explain to me how a Bugeye I owned in 1971 would drop from=
60 PSI at speed to 40 PSI over a period of time.=C2=A0 When I checked the =
oil it was a quart low.=C2=A0 Adding a quart, the "at speed" pressure retur=
ned to 60 PSI.=C2=A0 I mean it was great to have a low oil indicator like t=
hat, but I never understood how it worked.
Mike MacLean=20
On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 2:22 PM, Michael Salter <michael.salter@gm=
ail.com> wrote:
=20
Yes, absolutely true Bob.=20
Decreasing oil pressure can certainly be an indicator of increasing clearan=
ces.
M
On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 12:22 PM Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.net> wrote:
re: "... delivery pressure itself is not that important and is really jus=
t an indicator that oil is being delivered to the bearings ..." Pressure is=
useful as a trend indicator.
=20
On 10/30/2018 8:54 AM, Michael Salter wrote:
=20
I have a book "Repco Engine Service Manual" produced by Repco of Repco-Br=
abham fame that I use as my bible for engine building.=20
On the subject of oil pressure it states that delivery pressure itself is=
not that important and is really just an indicator that oil is being deliv=
ered to the bearings.=20
Of much greater importance is "thin film pressure" which is generated by =
the engine forces on a bearing which can be as high as 8000 p.s.i. at high =
RPM and is determined by the oil type and temperature, and the engine desi=
gn. Based upon this I believe that concentrating on having good oil pressur=
e at idle is wasted effort. What is important is that the engine has some p=
ressure at idle but good pressure in the normal operating range.=20
A pump which puts out a huge volume uses excessive horsepower and can res=
ult in accelerated wear of the pump drive.=20
M
=20
=20
On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 11:30 AM Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.net> wrote=
:
=20
I'll offer what I know/have heard*.=C2=A0 I have the 'high capacity' type=
in my BJ8, which is what the DWR techs/sales people recommended for a road=
car.=C2=A0 Older 6-cyl cars had a rotor type pump.=C2=A0 They (the rotor t=
ype) are supposed to be more efficient--i.e. they pump more oil--at lower R=
PMs.=C2=A0 At some point it was discovered, probably from service bay repai=
rs, that this type of pump put an excessive shear load on the bevel gears o=
n the cam that drive the pump, causing them to wear out.=C2=A0 Later cars =
started getting the gear type pump, which is less efficient at lower RPMs b=
ut puts less of a load on the cam, and is probably less expensive to manufa=
cture as well (esp. if the gears are the sintered iron variety).=C2=A0 I th=
ink the bevel gears on the cams were re-engineered, IIRC they got an additi=
onal tooth to spread the load.
The Welch HC pump is the rotor type.=C2=A0 I did a full engine rebuild an=
d installed the DWR HC pump; I didn't notice any pressure change worth ment=
ioning--I 'gained' 15 PSI at idle when I had my gauge overhauled--but the '=
high capacity' I believe refers to volume rather than pressure (which, of c=
ourse, is mostly dictated by engine speed).=C2=A0=C2=A0 The 'standard type'=
pump is a gear type, hence it's more appropriate for high-RPM race engines=
as pump flow is proportional to RPM, and at 6K RPM or more you'll get plen=
ty of oil with less load from the gear type. I'm not positive, but if you l=
ook at the photos closely, you can see the 'gallery plug' on the top of the=
case.=C2=A0 I suppose it allows inspection of the innards of the pump with=
out having to break the case.=C2=A0 I believe it's threaded so not likely t=
o pop out.=C2=A0 If you're getting a new pump you'll likely need a new driv=
e shaft and, surprisingly, DWR sells it cheaper than our (US) vendors sell =
it at (I think they might import the DWR shaft).
* apply appropriate grains of salt
=20
Bob
=20
On 10/30/2018 5:12 AM, simon.lachlan@alexarevel.plus.com wrote:
=20
Hi, Has anyone got the Denis Welch oil pump ENG672M? See:- https://www.bi=
ghealey.co.uk/performance-parts/austin-healey/engines/3000-bottom-end?page=
=3D3=20
Their text:- =E2=80=9CHeat treated castings for longer life and removable g=
allery plugs to be sure it is clean are advantages of both types of oil pum=
ps we offer. We recommend the high capacity for all road engines using a st=
andard type crank up to 6000 rpm and the standard pump for race engines, s=
teel cranks or anything over 6000 rpm. Both are precision machined and asse=
mbled in-house to control the highest quality.
- ENG672 is the standard type.
- ENG672M is the high capacity pump.=E2=80=9D
What are =E2=80=9Cremovable gallery plugs=E2=80=9D? Is it just me or is th=
e above a bit counter-intuitive? =E2=80=9CHigh capacity=E2=80=9D for road c=
ars and =E2=80=9Cstandard=E2=80=9D for race engines? Surely the highest cap=
acity is needed where the engine is working hardest ie racing? And don=E2=
=80=99t I remember that, with the standard BMC pumps, the older type is rec=
koned to be better than the newer type? Is this something similar to Denis =
Welch=E2=80=99s two pumps? Anyhow, if anyone=E2=80=99s got one=E2=80=A6..wh=
at=E2=80=99s it like? Did the oil pressure improve at all? I=E2=80=99m gues=
sing that most people will have fitted one as part of a big rebuild thus th=
ey won=E2=80=99t have straightforward =E2=80=9Cbefore and after=E2=80=9D co=
mparisons. I=E2=80=99m thinking of fitting mine to my engine as part of a s=
mall winter project and hope I can squeeze a few more psi into the system.=
Thanks, Simon =20
=20
_______________________________________________
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys http://autox.team.net/archiv=
e
Healeys@autox.team.net
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
comcast.net
=20
=20
_______________________________________________
Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation=C2=A0 $12.75
=20
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys http://autox.team.net/archi=
ve
=20
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Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/michaels=
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=20
=20
=20
=20
_______________________________________________
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys http://autox.team.net/archiv=
e
Healeys@autox.team.net
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
r.mike@att.net
=20
| | Virus-free. www.avg.com |
------=_Part_477834_959000639.1540941878394
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><head></head><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; f=
ont-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:16px"><div id=
=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1540941154761_17385" dir=3D"ltr"><span id=3D"yui_3_16=
_0_ym19_1_1540941154761_17384">Well then please explain to me how a Bugeye =
I owned in 1971 would drop from 60 PSI at speed to 40 PSI over a period of =
time. When I checked the oil it was a quart low. Adding a quart=
, the "at speed" pressure returned to 60 PSI. I mean it was great to =
have a low oil indicator like that, but I never understood how it worked.<b=
r></span></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><span id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1540941154761=
_17384">Mike MacLean</span></div> <div class=3D"qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></di=
v><div class=3D"yahoo_quoted" style=3D"display: block;"> <div style=3D"font=
-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div s=
tyle=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucid=
a Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"><font size=3D"2" =
face=3D"Arial"> On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 2:22 PM, Michael Salter <mi=
chael.salter@gmail.com> wrote:<br></font></div> <br><br> <div class=3D"=
y_msg_container"><div id=3D"yiv4771867940"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=
=3D"yiv4771867940gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms, sans-se=
rif;font-size:small;">Yes, absolutely true Bob. <br clear=3D"none"></div><d=
iv class=3D"yiv4771867940gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms,=
sans-serif;font-size:small;">Decreasing oil pressure can certainly be an i=
ndicator of increasing clearances.</div><div class=3D"yiv4771867940gmail_de=
fault" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms, sans-serif;font-size:small;"><br=
clear=3D"none"></div><div class=3D"yiv4771867940gmail_default" style=3D"fo=
nt-family:comic sans ms, sans-serif;font-size:small;">M<br clear=3D"none"><=
/div></div><br clear=3D"none"><div class=3D"yiv4771867940yqt5563999807" id=
=3D"yiv4771867940yqt15117"><div class=3D"yiv4771867940gmail_quote"><div dir=
=3D"ltr">On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 12:22 PM Bob Spidell <<a rel=3D"nofollo=
w" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:bspidell@comcast.net"; target=3D"_blank"=
href=3D"mailto:bspidell@comcast.net";>bspidell@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<b=
r clear=3D"none"></div><blockquote class=3D"yiv4771867940gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
=20
=20
=20
<div>
<div>re: "... delivery pressure itself is not that important and is
really just an indicator that oil is being delivered to the
bearings ..."</div>
<div>Pressure is useful as a trend indicator.<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<br clear=3D"none">
<div class=3D"yiv4771867940m_4764773932981263630moz-cite-prefix">On 10/=
30/2018 8:54 AM, Michael Salter
wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
=20
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"yiv4771867940gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comi=
c sans ms, sans-serif;font-size:small;">I have a book "Repco Engine
Service Manual" produced by Repco of Repco-Brabham fame that I
use as my bible for engine building. <br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv4771867940gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comi=
c sans ms, sans-serif;font-size:small;">On the subject of oil pressure
it states that delivery pressure itself is not that important
and is really just an indicator that oil is being delivered to
the bearings. <br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv4771867940gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comi=
c sans ms, sans-serif;font-size:small;">Of much greater importance is
"thin film pressure" which is generated by the engine forces
on a bearing which can be as high as 8000 p.s.i. at high RPM
and is determined by the oil type and temperature, and the
engine design.</div>
<div class=3D"yiv4771867940gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comi=
c sans ms, sans-serif;font-size:small;">Based upon this I believe that
concentrating on having good oil pressure at idle is wasted
effort. What is important is that the engine has some pressure
at idle but good pressure in the normal operating range. <br clea=
r=3D"none">
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv4771867940gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comi=
c sans ms, sans-serif;font-size:small;">A pump which puts out a huge
volume uses excessive horsepower and can result in accelerated
wear of the pump drive.</div>
<div class=3D"yiv4771867940gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comi=
c sans ms, sans-serif;font-size:small;"><br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv4771867940gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comi=
c sans ms, sans-serif;font-size:small;">M<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv4771867940gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comi=
c sans ms, sans-serif;font-size:small;"><br clear=3D"none">
</div>
</div>
<br clear=3D"none">
<div class=3D"yiv4771867940gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 11:30 AM Bob Spidell <<=
a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:bspidell@comcast.net"; t=
arget=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:bspidell@comcast.net";>bspidell@comcast.net<=
/a>>
wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"yiv4771867940gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div>
<div>I'll offer what I know/have heard*. I have the 'high
capacity' type in my BJ8, which is what the DWR
techs/sales people recommended for a road car. Older
6-cyl cars had a rotor type pump. They (the rotor type)
are supposed to be more efficient--i.e. they pump more
oil--at lower RPMs. At some point it was discovered,
probably from service bay repairs, that this type of pump
put an excessive shear load on the bevel gears on the cam
that drive the pump, causing them to wear out. Later ca=
rs
started getting the gear type pump, which is less
efficient at lower RPMs but puts less of a load on the
cam, and is probably less expensive to manufacture as well
(esp. if the gears are the sintered iron variety). I
think the bevel gears on the cams were re-engineered, IIRC
they got an additional tooth to spread the load.<br clear=3D"=
none">
</div>
<div>The Welch HC pump is the rotor type. I did a full en=
gine
rebuild and installed the DWR HC pump; I didn't notice any
pressure change worth mentioning--I 'gained' 15 PSI at
idle when I had my gauge overhauled--but the 'high
capacity' I believe refers to volume rather than pressure
(which, of course, is mostly dictated by engine speed). =
The 'standard type' pump is a gear type, hence it's more
appropriate for high-RPM race engines as pump flow is
proportional to RPM, and at 6K RPM or more you'll get
plenty of oil with less load from the gear type.</div>
<div>I'm not positive, but if you look at the photos closely,
you can see the 'gallery plug' on the top of the case. =
I
suppose it allows inspection of the innards of the pump
without having to break the case. I believe it's thread=
ed
so not likely to pop out. If you're getting a new pump
you'll likely need a new drive shaft and, surprisingly,
DWR sells it cheaper than our (US) vendors sell it at (I
think they might import the DWR shaft).<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
* apply appropriate grains of salt<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
Bob<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
<div class=3D"yiv4771867940m_4764773932981263630m_-555035641554=
905656moz-cite-prefix">On
10/30/2018 5:12 AM, <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" class=
=3D"yiv4771867940m_4764773932981263630m_-555035641554905656moz-txt-link-abb=
reviated" ymailto=3D"mailto:simon.lachlan@alexarevel.plus.com"; target=3D"_b=
lank" href=3D"mailto:simon.lachlan@alexarevel.plus.com";>simon.lachlan@alexa=
revel.plus.com</a>
wrote:<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div class=3D"yiv4771867940m_4764773932981263630m_-5550356415=
54905656WordSection1">
<div class=3D"yiv4771867940MsoNormal">Hi,</div>
<div class=3D"yiv4771867940MsoNormal">Has anyone got the De=
nis Welch oil
pump ENG672M? See:-</div>
<div class=3D"yiv4771867940MsoNormal"><a rel=3D"nofollow" s=
hape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://www.bighealey.co.uk/perform=
ance-parts/austin-healey/engines/3000-bottom-end?page=3D3">https://www.bigh=
ealey.co.uk/performance-parts/austin-healey/engines/3000-bottom-end?page=3D=
3</a></div>
<h2 style=3D"margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:6.0pt;margin-le=
ft:0cm;line-height:20.25pt;">Their
text:- =E2=80=9C<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;">Heat
treated castings for longer life and removable
gallery plugs to be sure it is clean are advantages
of both types of oil pumps we offer. We recommend
the high capacity for all road engines using a
standard type crank up to 6000 rpm and the standard
pump for race engines, steel cranks or anything over
6000 rpm. Both are precision machined and assembled
in-house to control the highest quality.<br clear=3D"no=
ne">
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;">-
ENG672 is the standard type.</span><span style=3D"font-=
size:9.0pt;"><br clear=3D"none">
- ENG672M is the high capacity pump.=E2=80=9D</span></h=
2>
<div class=3D"yiv4771867940MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-botto=
m:12.75pt;line-height:14.4pt;"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;">What
are =E2=80=9Cremovable gallery plugs=E2=80=9D?</span></=
div>
<div class=3D"yiv4771867940MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-botto=
m:12.75pt;line-height:14.4pt;"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;">Is
it just me or is the above a bit counter-intuitive?
=E2=80=9CHigh capacity=E2=80=9D for road cars and =E2=
=80=9Cstandard=E2=80=9D for
race engines? Surely the highest capacity is needed
where the engine is working hardest ie racing? </span><=
/div>
<div class=3D"yiv4771867940MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-botto=
m:12.75pt;line-height:14.4pt;"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;">And
don=E2=80=99t I remember that, with the standard BMC pu=
mps,
the older type is reckoned to be better than the
newer type? Is this something similar to Denis
Welch=E2=80=99s two pumps?</span></div>
<div class=3D"yiv4771867940MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-botto=
m:12.75pt;line-height:14.4pt;"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;">Anyhow,
if anyone=E2=80=99s got one=E2=80=A6..what=E2=80=99s it=
like? Did the oil
pressure improve at all?</span></div>
<div class=3D"yiv4771867940MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-botto=
m:12.75pt;line-height:14.4pt;"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;">I=E2=80=99m
guessing that most people will have fitted one as
part of a big rebuild thus they won=E2=80=99t have
straightforward =E2=80=9Cbefore and after=E2=80=9D comp=
arisons. I=E2=80=99m
thinking of fitting mine to my engine as part of a
small winter project and hope I can squeeze a few
more psi into the system. </span></div>
<div class=3D"yiv4771867940MsoNormal">Thanks,</div>
<div class=3D"yiv4771867940MsoNormal">Simon</div>
</div>
<br clear=3D"none">
<fieldset class=3D"yiv4771867940m_4764773932981263630m_-55503=
5641554905656mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
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