--===============7342609420083620883==
boundary="----=_Part_798068_190690670.1674326680762"
------=_Part_798068_190690670.1674326680762
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Henry
(DISCLAIMER) I am not an expert on this subject but what I do know I am gla=
d to share.
I know this subject can be controversial just because there are so many opp=
osing opinions. Let me start by saying I have no interest in fighting over =
whose opinion is right or wrong mainly because an opinion is not science or=
fact based quantifiable data. I am however more than willing to have a fru=
itful conversation that helps every one increase their knowledge base on th=
is subject.
Camshafts along with many (too many, haha) other high performance or racing=
items have been my passion for over 45 years and I have spent countless do=
llars and hours investigating this so called black art called cam design. I=
have asked some of the best cam designers in the world about what I need i=
n any particular motor and reached a point where some started saying " I do=
n't know the answer to that question", others blew me off by saying that wo=
n't work with no explanation why. When I was right around 40 years old I to=
ok on the attitude screw it, I'm going to do it anyhow. I can truthfully sa=
y most things I tried in fact did not work but some things actually did.=C2=
=A0
Moving forward there are 2 quotes I am reminded of that I think are applica=
ble here, the first is; " It's easier to convince someone of a lie that con=
vince them they have been lied to" and the second is "Everything in the uni=
verse can be explained with math".
In a general sense Ed Iskendarion, Harvey Crane, Dema Elgin and many others=
were way ahead of their time and did their best to apply some math for smo=
othing purposes and trial and error to build cams that would make power and=
not beat the valve train to death. Over the years cam companies have amass=
ed thousands of lobe profiles and that combined with a ton of dyno run data=
from engine builders is how they make their recommendations for todays cus=
tomers so the question is can they get you close? I think so depending on w=
hat engine you are working with, Chevy's and Fords, you have a really good =
chance. Other off brand or non mainstream engines are basically what someon=
e has developed on their own through trial and error like Kas. As a side no=
te, many NASCAR engine shops have 55 gallon barrels full of trial and error=
camshafts headed to the scrap yard.
The worlds best cam designer to date in my opinion would be a guy you never=
heard of named Dick Jones. Dick had developed the math by proving it over =
decades of testing and has 4 Indy wins to his credit among many other wins =
in racing. Dicks son Rick Jones has take the math a step further by refinin=
g it and building a software program that will make you look like a hero ri=
ght out of the box.
Today, there is a way to have the perfect camshaft for your specific combin=
ation of parts. The perfect cam may or may not make more max hp than what y=
ou have currently depending on how good your combination of parts are. My m=
otors have made a couple more hp on the top but tons more on the bottom and=
mid range which is why I have been accused of cheating, the cars really ac=
celerate of the corners which is how you win races.
SUPPLY AND DEMAND=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
In simple terms, a combination of engine parts is the demand side and the c=
amshaft acts as the supply side. X engine specs demand X supply to make X H=
P at X RPM's, the cam design software looks at these parameters and mathema=
tically generates a profile providing the supply the your combination of pa=
rts demand. The specifics are a little hard to get your head around and tha=
t's why I offered to help with cam designs.
Most race engine camshafts are too large in my experience, that's why the T=
Q range is so tight or small (peaky). Enzo once said, HP sells cars and TQ =
wins races. Example - ideally we want a really wide TQ band say 4500-8000 f=
or example. If the engine makes peak HP at say 7500rpm and still is making =
power at 8000 your combo of parts are good. If the motor makes peak HP at 7=
500 and drops off a cliff at 7600 your parts are not capable of getting to =
8000, its not the camshafts fault generally speaking.
You can get the software here and its stupid cheap at the moment.=C2=A0http=
s://induction-logic.com/=C2=A0
I thinks that's enough to get the ball rolling don't you, haha.
Questions / comments??
Rick Parent
"Doing the right thing is always the right thing, regardless of consequence=
s"
=20
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 05:10:09 AM MST, yellow04 via Fot <fot=
@autox.team.net> wrote: =20
=20
Rick,
Needing to beat the guys at the pointy end of the pack is what racing is=20
all about, right?
If your engine has the billet bottom end you describe, you can safely=20
run pretty much any cam you desire. Plenty of options out there, from=20
mild to wild. You are going to get a bunch of opinions out of this=20
thread!
First data point for you, the majority of the front running 4 cylinder=20
TR's in the east run the old Gillanders #24. It's a beast, makes power=20
up to and beyond 7 grand. You let the revs drop below 4 grand and it is=20
game over for that lap! I can tell you multiple Kastner Cup winners had=20
that cam in their car when they took home the Cup.
Henry
Rick McCurdy wrote:
>=20
> On another subject (and because I haven=E2=80=99t figured out how to do a
> =E2=80=98dry=E2=80=99 post), my motor got a bit =E2=80=98fried=E2=80=99 a=
t the K Cup in
> Pittsburgh last summer. In short, I=E2=80=99m seeking advice on a good, h=
igh
> quality camshaft for a TR4 motor. Billet crank, Carillo rods, forged
> pistons, etc.
>=20
> Any suggestions? I=E2=80=99m not an engineer, just a musician, and I don=
=E2=80=99t
> need to beat Henry Frye! (Well, not right away=E2=80=A6=F0=9F=98=81)
>=20
> Thanks,
_______________________________________________
fot@autox.team.net
http://www.fot-racing.com
Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
tt.net
=20
------=_Part_798068_190690670.1674326680762
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><head></head><body><div class=3D"ydpf02007b1yahoo-style-wrap" style=
=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1=
6px;"><div style=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false" style=3D"font-=
family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">Hi =
Henry</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false" style=3D"font-family: Hel=
vetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div=
dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, He=
lvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">(DISCLAIMER) I am not an expe=
rt on this subject but what I do know I am glad to share.</div><div dir=3D"=
ltr" data-setdir=3D"false" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica,=
Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdi=
r=3D"false" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-se=
rif; font-size: 16px;">I know this subject can be controversial just becaus=
e there are so many opposing opinions. Let me start by saying I have no int=
erest in fighting over whose opinion is right or wrong mainly because an op=
inion is not science or fact based quantifiable data. I am however more tha=
n willing to have a fruitful conversation that helps every one increase the=
ir knowledge base on this subject.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"fal=
se" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; fon=
t-size: 16px;"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false" style=3D"fo=
nt-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">=
Camshafts along with many (too many, haha) other high performance or racing=
items have been my passion for over 45 years and I have spent countless do=
llars and hours investigating this so called black art called cam design. I=
have asked some of the best cam designers in the world about what I need i=
n any particular motor and reached a point where some started saying " I do=
n't know the answer to that question", others blew me off by saying that wo=
n't work with no explanation why. When I was right around 40 years old I to=
ok on the attitude screw it, I'm going to do it anyhow. I can truthfully sa=
y most things I tried in fact did not work but some things actually did.&nb=
sp;</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false" style=3D"font-family: Helve=
tica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helv=
etica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">Moving forward there are 2 quot=
es I am reminded of that I think are applicable here, the first is; " It's =
easier to convince someone of a lie that convince them they have been lied =
to" and the second is "Everything in the universe can be explained with mat=
h".</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false" style=3D"font-family: Helve=
tica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helv=
etica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">In a general sense Ed Iskendari=
on, Harvey Crane, Dema Elgin and many others were way ahead of their time a=
nd did their best to apply some math for smoothing purposes and trial and e=
rror to build cams that would make power and not beat the valve train to de=
ath. Over the years cam companies have amassed thousands of lobe profiles a=
nd that combined with a ton of dyno run data from engine builders is how th=
ey make their recommendations for todays customers so the question is can t=
hey get you close? I think so depending on what engine you are working with=
, Chevy's and Fords, you have a really good chance. Other off brand or non =
mainstream engines are basically what someone has developed on their own th=
rough trial and error like Kas. As a side note, many NASCAR engine shops ha=
ve 55 gallon barrels full of trial and error camshafts headed to the scrap =
yard.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false" style=3D"font-family: Hel=
vetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div=
dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false" style=3D"">The worlds best cam designer =
to date in my opinion would be a guy you never heard of named Dick Jones. D=
ick had developed the math by proving it over decades of testing and has 4 =
Indy wins to his credit among many other wins in racing. Dicks son Rick Jon=
es has take the math a step further by refining it and building a software =
program that will make you look like a hero right out of the box.</div><div=
dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, He=
lvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" da=
ta-setdir=3D"false" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,=
sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">Today, there is a way to have the perfect ca=
mshaft for your specific combination of parts. The perfect cam may or may n=
ot make more max hp than what you have currently depending on how good your=
combination of parts are. My motors have made a couple more hp on the top =
but tons more on the bottom and mid range which is why I have been accused =
of cheating, the cars really accelerate of the corners which is how you win=
races.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false" style=3D"font-family: H=
elvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, =
Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">SUPPLY AND DEMAND &nbs=
p; </div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false" style=3D"font-fa=
mily: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br><=
/div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica=
Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">In simple terms, a c=
ombination of engine parts is the demand side and the camshaft acts as the =
supply side. X engine specs demand X supply to make X HP at X RPM's, the ca=
m design software looks at these parameters and mathematically generates a =
profile providing the supply the your combination of parts demand. The spec=
ifics are a little hard to get your head around and that's why I offered to=
help with cam designs.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false" style=
=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1=
6px;"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false" style=3D"font-family=
: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">Most race=
engine camshafts are too large in my experience, that's why the TQ range i=
s so tight or small (peaky). Enzo once said, HP sells cars and TQ wins race=
s. Example - ideally we want a really wide TQ band say 4500-8000 for exampl=
e. If the engine makes peak HP at say 7500rpm and still is making power at =
8000 your combo of parts are good. If the motor makes peak HP at 7500 and d=
rops off a cliff at 7600 your parts are not capable of getting to 8000, its=
not the camshafts fault generally speaking.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-set=
dir=3D"false" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-=
serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false" s=
tyle=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-siz=
e: 16px;">You can get the software here and its stupid cheap at the moment.=
<a href=3D"https://induction-logic.com/"; rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_=
blank">https://induction-logic.com/</a> </div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-se=
tdir=3D"false" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans=
-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-si=
ze: 16px;">I thinks that's enough to get the ball rolling don't you, haha.<=
/div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica=
Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvet=
ica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">Questions / comments??</div><div =
dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Hel=
vetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" dat=
a-setdir=3D"false" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, =
sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetic=
a Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div clas=
s=3D"ydpf02007b1signature" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica,=
Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica, =
Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><div dir=3D"ltr">Rick Parent</div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">"<i>Doing the right thing is always t=
he right thing, regardless of consequences</i>"</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><=
/div></div></div></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-s=
erif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue=
, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div>
=20
</div><div id=3D"yahoo_quoted_4690198697" class=3D"yahoo_quoted">
<div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
=20
<div>
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 05:10:09 AM MST, yello=
w04 via Fot <fot@autox.team.net> wrote:
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><div dir=3D"ltr">Rick,<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"=
none">Needing to beat the guys at the pointy end of the pack is what racing=
is <br clear=3D"none">all about, right?<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"non=
e">If your engine has the billet bottom end you describe, you can safely <b=
r clear=3D"none">run pretty much any cam you desire. Plenty of options out =
there, from <br clear=3D"none">mild to wild. You are going to get a bunch o=
f opinions out of this <br clear=3D"none">thread!<br clear=3D"none"><br cle=
ar=3D"none">First data point for you, the majority of the front running 4 c=
ylinder <br clear=3D"none">TR's in the east run the old Gillanders #24. It'=
s a beast, makes power <br clear=3D"none">up to and beyond 7 grand. You let=
the revs drop below 4 grand and it is <br clear=3D"none">game over for tha=
t lap! I can tell you multiple Kastner Cup winners had <br clear=3D"none">t=
hat cam in their car when they took home the Cup.<br clear=3D"none"><br cle=
ar=3D"none">Henry<br clear=3D"none"><div class=3D"yqt9057081774" id=3D"yqtf=
d04517"><br clear=3D"none">Rick McCurdy wrote:<br clear=3D"none">> <br c=
lear=3D"none">> On another subject (and because I haven=E2=80=99t figure=
d out how to do a<br clear=3D"none">> =E2=80=98dry=E2=80=99 post), my mo=
tor got a bit =E2=80=98fried=E2=80=99 at the K Cup in<br clear=3D"none">>=
; Pittsburgh last summer. In short, I=E2=80=99m seeking advice on a good, h=
igh<br clear=3D"none">> quality camshaft for a TR4 motor. Billet crank, =
Carillo rods, forged<br clear=3D"none">> pistons, etc.<br clear=3D"none"=
>> <br clear=3D"none">> Any suggestions? I=E2=80=99m not an engineer,=
just a musician, and I don=E2=80=99t<br clear=3D"none">> need to beat H=
enry Frye! (Well, not right away=E2=80=A6=F0=9F=98=81)<br clear=3D"none">&g=
t; <br clear=3D"none">> Thanks,<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">___=
____________________________________________<br clear=3D"none"><a shape=3D"=
rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.n=
et">fot@autox.team.net</a><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><a shape=3D=
"rect" href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com"; target=3D"_blank">http://www.fot-=
racing.com</a><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Donate: <a shape=3D"rec=
t" href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html"; target=3D"_blank">http://www.te=
am.net/donate.html</a><br clear=3D"none">Archive: <a shape=3D"rect" href=3D=
"http://autox.team.net/archive " target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/ar=
chive </a><a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot"; targ=
et=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot</a><br clear=3D"none">Unsub=
scribe/Manage: <a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/opti=
ons/fot/rick.parent@att.net" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/mailma=
n/options/fot/rick.parent@att.net</a><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">=
<br clear=3D"none"></div></div></div>
</div>
</div></body></html>
------=_Part_798068_190690670.1674326680762--
--===============7342609420083620883==
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
_______________________________________________
fot@autox.team.net
http://www.fot-racing.com
Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
--===============7342609420083620883==--
|