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In addition to the rotating mass issues, the recip weight inertial forces c=
reate heavy tensile loads in the rods & bending loads in the crank @ TDC hi=
gh rpm...
FWIW
Glen
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-----Original Message-----
From: Aaron <hpspitfire@gmail.com>
To: fot <fot@autox.team.net>
Sent: Thu, Jul 23, 2015 2:15 pm
Subject: Re: [Fot] Racing rod design
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I guess I'm confused. How much worse is the stroke of a tr4. =20
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In my spitfire 1500 we use stock rods and a stock crank shaft and shift poi=
nt is 7200 rpm. Guys using the moldex cranks and forged rods are getting 85=
00 or so. And these are the pauter x style. =20
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Are you sure the initial failure was the rod and not something before that?=
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AaronJohnson=20
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H Prod spitfire 1500 =20
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Sent from my iPhone=20
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On Jul 23, 2015, at 07:40, John Hasty < jhasty@mhc-law.com> wrote: =20
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Gee Whiz=E2=80=A6.you guys know a h- - - of a lot more about this than me, =
but I reason that if Manley etc. make a rod that withstands the rigors of a=
800+ hp American V8 turning upwards of 9000 rpm and it costs =C2=BD of wha=
t P and C are charging it makes sense to use them=E2=80=A6..
=20
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John H. Hasty | MULLEN HOLLAND & COOPER P.A.
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Attorney at Law
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301 South York Street (zip: 28052)=20
P.O. Box 488=20
Gastonia, NC 28053-0488=20
Telephone: 704.864.6751 | Facsimile: 704.861.8394=20
JHasty@mhc-law.com | www.mhc-law.com
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From: Fot [mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of John Styduhar
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 9:59 AM
To: Christian Marx; Triumph 'Friends of Triumph
Subject: Re: [Fot] Racing rod design
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Pauter has been making this design for almost 30 years with zero cold failu=
res. If it were a poor design they would have changed it out of necessity.=
According to a Pauter rep., the main reason they started manufacturing th=
eir own rods in the first place was due to the fact that the H beam and I b=
eam rods they were using couldn=E2=80=99t put up with what they were throwi=
ng at them with their turbo charged 4cylinder engines. =20
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If you spin a rod bearing, eventually you will break anything.=20
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On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 9:49 AM, Christian Marx <tr4racing@googlemail.com> =
wrote:
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I saw the pictures of Pauter.
This type has no material were it needs and too much were it doesn't make =
sense. Maybe for very short rods usable.=20
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Am 23.07.2015 14:46 schrieb "John Styduhar" <johnstydo@gmail.com>:
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The Pauter design is a cross-beam (an inside-out H beam) not an x-beam and =
shares H-beam design properties because of this.=20
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On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 3:34 AM, MadMarx <tr4racing@googlemail.com> wrote:
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Today I had a look to a book called race car design.
=20
It also contains engines, and as detail rods and their designs. I, H, blade=
=E2=80=93 no x-beam (seems they never got the idea that someone could get =
the idea of an x-beam rod)
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They said that F1 uses I-beam rods because they have the best stiffness to =
weight ratio.
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Also German DTM-cars use I-beam rods.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Tourenwagen_Masters
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Cheers
=20
Chris
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_______________________________________________
fot@autox.team.net
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http://www.fot-racing.com
=20
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
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_______________________________________________ =20
fot@autox.team.net =20
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http://www.fot-racing.com =20
=20
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html =20
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive =20
Forums: http://www.team.net/forums =20
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@gmail.com =20
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_______________________________________________
fot@autox.team.net
http://www.fot-racing.com
Donate:
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
Forums:
http://www.team.net/forums
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/fubog1@aol.com
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------=_Part_46022_1755071303.1437679796688
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<font color=3D'black' size=3D'2' face=3D'Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif'><fon=
t size=3D"2">In addition to the rotating mass issues, the recip weight iner=
tial forces create heavy tensile loads in the rods & bending loads in t=
he crank @ TDC high rpm...<br>
FWIW<br>
Glen<br>
</font>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----=
Original Message-----<br>
From: Aaron <hpspitfire@gmail.com><br>
To: fot <fot@autox.team.net><br>
Sent: Thu, Jul 23, 2015 2:15 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [Fot] Racing rod design<br>
<br>
<div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_1.2_30e40212-66f7-4fb3-af03-767d4d2d0478">
<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"aolReplacedBody">
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<div>
I guess I'm confused. How much worse is the stroke of a tr4.
</div>
=20
<div>
<br>
</div>
=20
<div>
In my spitfire 1500 we use stock rods and a stock crank shaft and shift poi=
nt is 7200 rpm. Guys using the moldex cranks and forged rods are getting 85=
00 or so. And these are the pauter x style.
</div>
=20
<div>
<br>
</div>
=20
<div>
Are you sure the initial failure was the rod and not something before that?
<br>
<br>
AaronJohnson
</div>
=20
<div>
H Prod spitfire 1500
<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone
</div>
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<div>
<br>
On Jul 23, 2015, at 07:40, John Hasty <
<a target=3D"_blank" removedlink__5f9af8eb-5c63-4876-8e51-dc16b90a2517__h=
ref=3D"mailto:jhasty@mhc-law.com";>jhasty@mhc-law.com</a>> wrote:
<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote>
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<div>=20
<style>#AOLMsgPart_1.2_30e40212-66f7-4fb3-af03-767d4d2d0478 td{color: bl=
ack;} @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 =
4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;=
} @font-face {font-family:"Arial Narrow"; panose-1:2 11 6 6 2 2 2=
3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Verdana; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} .=
aolReplacedBody p.MsoNormal,.aolReplacedBody li.MsoNormal,.aolReplacedBody =
div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-fa=
mily:"Times New Roman",serif;} .aolReplacedBody a:link,.aolReplac=
edBody span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoratio=
n:underline;} .aolReplacedBody a:visited,.aolReplacedBody span.MsoHyperlink=
Followed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} =
.aolReplacedBody p {mso-style-priority:99; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-=
right:0in; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0in; font-size:12.0pt; f=
ont-family:"Times New Roman",serif;} .aolReplacedBody span.EmailS=
tyle18 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri",sans=
-serif; color:#1F497D;} .aolReplacedBody .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:exp=
ort-only; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;} @page WordSection1 {=
size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} .aolReplacedBody div.Wo=
rdSection1 {page:WordSection1;}</style>=20
=20
<div class=3D"WordSection1">=20
=20
<div class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=
Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Gee Whiz=E2=80=A6.you guys know a h=
- - - of a lot more about this than me, but I reason that if Manley etc. ma=
ke a rod that withstands the rigors of a 800+ hp American V8 turning upward=
s of 9000 rpm and it costs =C2=BD of what P and C are charging it makes sen=
se to use them=E2=80=A6..</span></div>
=20
=20
<div class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=
Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span></div>
=20
=20
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">John H.=
Hasty</span><span style=3D"font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:=
#1F497D"> </span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Na=
rrow",sans-serif;color:#632423">|<b> MULLEN HOLLAND & COOPER P.A</=
b></span><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow&=
quot;,sans-serif;color:green">.</span></b></div>
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<div class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=
Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Attorney at Law</span></div>
=20
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<div class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=
Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">301 South York Street (zip: 280=
52)</span><span style=3D"font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F=
497D"> <br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-=
serif;color:#1F497D">P.O. Box 488</span><span style=3D"font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> <br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-=
serif;color:#1F497D">Gastonia, NC 28053-0488</span><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> <br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-=
serif;color:#1F497D">Telephone: 704.864.6751 | Facsimile: 704.861.8394</spa=
n><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"> <br>
</span><u><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sa=
ns-serif;color:blue">JHasty<a target=3D"_blank" removedlink__5f9af8eb-5c63-=
4876-8e51-dc16b90a2517__href=3D"http://@mhc-law.com";>@mhc-law.com</a></span=
></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-ser=
if;color:green"> </span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"A=
rial Narrow",sans-serif;color:#632423">|</span><span style=3D"color:#5=
48DD4"> </span><u><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif;color:blue"><a target=3D"_blank" removedlink__5f9af8eb-5c63=
-4876-8e51-dc16b90a2517__href=3D"http://www.mhc-law.com/";>www.mhc-law.com</=
a></span></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri"=
;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"></span></div>
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<div class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=
Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span></div>
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<div class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Fot [<a target=3D"_blank" re=
movedlink__5f9af8eb-5c63-4876-8e51-dc16b90a2517__href=3D"mailto:fot-bounces=
@autox.team.net">mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b=
>John Styduhar<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 23, 2015 9:59 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Christian Marx; Triumph 'Friends of Triumph<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fot] Racing rod design</span></div>
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<div class=3D"MsoNormal"> </div>
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<div>=20
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<div>=20
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<div class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=
Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Pauter has been making this design =
for almost 30 years with zero cold failures. If it were a poor design=
they would have changed it out of necessity. According to a Pauter r=
ep., the main reason they started manufacturing their own rods in the first=
place was due to the fact that the H beam and I beam rods they were using =
couldn=E2=80=99t put up with what they were throwing at them with their tur=
bo charged 4cylinder engines. </span></div>
=20
=20
<div class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=
Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">If you spin a rod bearing, eve=
ntually you will break anything. </span></div>
=20
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<div class=3D"MsoNormal"> </div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div>=20
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<div class=3D"MsoNormal"> </div>
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<div>=20
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<div class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 9:49 AM, Christian Marx &l=
t;<a target=3D"_blank" removedlink__5f9af8eb-5c63-4876-8e51-dc16b90a2517__h=
ref=3D"mailto:tr4racing@googlemail.com";>tr4racing@googlemail.com</a>> wr=
ote:</div>
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<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padd=
ing:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">=20
=20
<div>I saw the pictures of Pauter.<br>
This type has no material were it needs and too much were it doesn't make =
sense. Maybe for very short rods usable. </div>
=20
=20
<div>=20
=20
<div>=20
=20
<div>=20
=20
<div class=3D"MsoNormal">Am 23.07.2015 14:46 schrieb "John Styduhar" <<a=
target=3D"_blank" removedlink__5f9af8eb-5c63-4876-8e51-dc16b90a2517__href=
=3D"mailto:johnstydo@gmail.com";>johnstydo@gmail.com</a>>:</div>
=20
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;=
padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">=20
=20
<div>=20
=20
<div>=20
=20
<div class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=
Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The Pauter design is a cross-beam (=
an inside-out H beam) not an x-beam and shares H-beam design properties bec=
ause of this. </span></div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div>=20
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<div class=3D"MsoNormal"> </div>
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<div>=20
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<div class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 3:34 AM, MadMarx <<a ta=
rget=3D"_blank" removedlink__5f9af8eb-5c63-4876-8e51-dc16b90a2517__href=3D"=
mailto:tr4racing@googlemail.com";>tr4racing@googlemail.com</a>> wrote:</d=
iv>
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<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0=
pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">=20
=20
<div>=20
=20
<div>=20
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<div>=20
=20
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom=
-alt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",=
sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Today I had a look to a book called race car desi=
gn.</span><span lang=3D"DE"></span></div>
=20
=20
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom=
-alt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",=
sans-serif;color:#1F497D">It also contains engines, and as detail rods and =
their designs. I, H, blade =E2=80=93 no x-beam (seems they never got the id=
ea that someone could get the idea of an x-beam rod)</span><span lang=3D"DE=
"></span></div>
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=20
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom=
-alt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",=
sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang=3D"DE"></span></div>
=20
=20
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom=
-alt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",=
sans-serif;color:#1F497D">They said that F1 uses I-beam rods because they h=
ave the best stiffness to weight ratio.</span><span lang=3D"DE"></span></di=
v>
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=20
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom=
-alt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",=
sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Also German DTM-cars use I-beam rods.</span><span=
lang=3D"DE"></span></div>
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<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom=
-alt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",=
sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><a target=3D"_blank" removedlink__5f9af8eb-5c63-4=
876-8e51-dc16b90a2517__href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Toure=
nwagen_Masters">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Tourenwagen_Masters<=
/a></span><span lang=3D"DE"></span></div>
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<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom=
-alt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",=
sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang=3D"DE"></span></div>
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=20
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom=
-alt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",=
sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang=3D"DE"></span></div>
=20
=20
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom=
-alt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",=
sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Cheers</span><span lang=3D"DE"></span></div>
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=20
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom=
-alt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",=
sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Chris</span><span lang=3D"DE"></span></div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
<a target=3D"_blank" removedlink__5f9af8eb-5c63-4876-8e51-dc16b90a2517__hr=
ef=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net";>fot@autox.team.net</a><br>
<br>
<a target=3D"_blank" removedlink__5f9af8eb-5c63-4876-8e51-dc16b90a2517__hr=
ef=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com";>http://www.fot-racing.com</a><br>
<br>
Donate: <a target=3D"_blank" removedlink__5f9af8eb-5c63-4876-8e51-dc16b90a=
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tml</a><br>
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do@gmail.com"> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/johnstydo@gmail.co=
m</a><br>
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<br>
</div>
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</blockquote>=20
</div>
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<div class=3D"MsoNormal"> </div>
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</blockquote>=20
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
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<div>
<span>_______________________________________________</span>
<br>
<span><a target=3D"_blank" removedlink__5f9af8eb-5c63-4876-8e51-dc16b90a=
2517__href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net";>fot@autox.team.net</a></span>
<br>
<span></span>
<br>
<span><a target=3D"_blank" removedlink__5f9af8eb-5c63-4876-8e51-dc16b90a=
2517__href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com";>http://www.fot-racing.com</a></spa=
n>
<br>
<span></span>
<br>
<span>Donate: <a target=3D"_blank" removedlink__5f9af8eb-5c63-4876-8e51-=
dc16b90a2517__href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html";>http://www.team.net/=
donate.html</a></span>
<br>
<span>Archive: <a target=3D"_blank" removedlink__5f9af8eb-5c63-4876-8e51=
-dc16b90a2517__href=3D"http://www.team.net/archive";>http://www.team.net/arc=
hive</a></span>
<br>
<span>Forums: <a target=3D"_blank" removedlink__5f9af8eb-5c63-4876-8e51-=
dc16b90a2517__href=3D"http://www.team.net/forums";>http://www.team.net/forum=
s</a></span>
<br>
<span>Unsubscribe/Manage: <a target=3D"_blank" removedlink__5f9af8eb-5c6=
3-4876-8e51-dc16b90a2517__href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot=
/hpspitfire@gmail.com">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/hpspitfire=
@gmail.com</a></span>
<br>
<span></span>
<br>
<span></span>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_2_49e570e4-6c88-4393-9744-86bd979d137b" style=3D"marg=
in: 0px;font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, Sans-Serif;font-size: 12px;col=
or: #000;background-color: #fff;">
<pre style=3D"font-size: 9pt;"><tt>________________________________________=
_______
<a removedlink__5f9af8eb-5c63-4876-8e51-dc16b90a2517__href=3D"mailto:fot@au=
tox.team.net">fot@autox.team.net</a>
<a removedlink__5f9af8eb-5c63-4876-8e51-dc16b90a2517__href=3D"http://www.fo=
t-racing.com" target=3D"_blank">http://www.fot-racing.com</a>
Donate:
<a removedlink__5f9af8eb-5c63-4876-8e51-dc16b90a2517__href=3D"http://www.te=
am.net/donate.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a>
Archive: <a removedlink__5f9af8eb-5c63-4876-8e51-dc16b90a2517__href=3D"http=
://www.team.net/archive" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/archive</a>
Forums:
<a removedlink__5f9af8eb-5c63-4876-8e51-dc16b90a2517__href=3D"http://www.te=
am.net/forums" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/forums</a>
<a removedlink__5f9af8eb-5c63-4876-8e51-dc16b90a2517__href=3D"http://autox.=
team.net/mailman/options/fot/fubog1@aol.com" target=3D"_blank">http://autox=
.team.net/mailman/options/fot/fubog1@aol.com</a>
</tt></pre>
</div>
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_______________________________________________
fot@autox.team.net
http://www.fot-racing.com
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
--===============1306985520609800573==--
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