Marc,
This is not an attack!
After I answer this, if you would like to email me directly so not to carry this
out on the list, I'll be happy to type at you. But since you refer to my
statments on the List, I am going to reply on the List.
1. Non answers are not the same no in this case. Sorry, you are mistaken. I
already have names that were sent to me in the past and on this current posting.
So, people have already told me! You just didn't see the direct posting I was
given.
2. Not all persons are businesses. Sorry, if you incorporate, you protect your
personal assets from your business ones. And you can be incorporated and work
out
of a garage.
3. This is not a personal vendetta. But you'll have to take my word for it in
my
case. I can't tell you how others work, though I understand what you mean
perfectly and have seen what you mean first hand.
4. Actually, I am not using the power of the List to prove fraud. I am making
the List aware of a problem via questions I asked and actually hope to get the
individual to answer all my attempts at communication with them. But it is hard
to do when they don't return email or phone calls.
5. It's not the List's job to ascertain facts and I too know of allegations
made. What you can get are opinions from long time members on the List. But
you
still have to post it there. Otherwise you are taking a small sampling of
answers
from a select few that you choose to email. Question would be, who do you know
to
email? But again, I am concerned with others possibly being taken advantage of.
If you do all this in private, a huge majority of unsuspecting people can get
burnt. Since I don't point my finger without exhausting all avenues, I know in
my
heart I've given the truth and will be the first to respond to that individual
if
they ever answer me. You just wouldn't believe how many people want this
persons
name, but I am still waiting for the individual to get back to me. As I recall,
Stickerman offered up a page just for those opinions.
6. You hit it right on the head here Marc. This is all I am talking about, The
Fraudulent Private Deal. I am not referring to our major roadster suppliers. I
can't stress that enough!
7. Well, what can I say. You steal money from me and I will do what I can to
see
you don't do it to someone else. You'll just have to call me a liar and hope
they
believe you. Gee, you should have been on the new car dealer showroom floor
yesterday when the sales manager flat out lied to me. Two customers walked
right
out that door when I got done. And yes, I got was I was told I would get in the
first place.
8. There you go with that grudge thing again. You have to remember, you can't
stop somebody from posting a scorching thread. You can only react to it. They
happen, you yourself have seen it. I understand what you are saying. I can't
deny
that things like that happen. I have too often seen it happen myself to others
and myself. But it mostly starts in small circles and waves outward were you
don't see it coming. By then opinions are formed and hard to change. If they
are
out in the open, you get to respond to them!
Nobody likes a back stabber! And I don't want to see you lose money either.
Marc Sayer wrote:
> Concerned wrote:
> >
> > A question was asked and NOT answered.
> >
> > Except by Paul at OROC! : - )) That answer was No.
>
> Non answers are the same as a no in this case, If anyone had done such a
> thing or knew of such a thing they would have told you.
>
> > Somewhere it shifted to Roadster Suppliers and again was not directed there!
>
> Well that line gets very blurry at times. Is the guy selling parts out
> of his garage a business or a person. All businesses are in fact
> persons. My post was not an attempt to shift the focus but to point out
> that the nature of the list required us to consider a broader focus. On
> a mailing list you have to treat businesses and individuals the same or
> you would be discriminating against one group or the other, and that
> wouldn't be fair. That was part of my point. I thought your original
> post was right on. It did NOT accuse anyone of anything directly but it
> made it clear that you had some specific beefs and opinions. Any of us
> who cared could have emailed you for the info. That does save folks, who
> are heads up enough to ask before they buy, from getting ripped off, but
> does not turn this list into a he-said/she-said forum.
>
> > Some of you are losing sight of the objective, which is to keep others on
> > the List from being cheated.
>
> Not at all. I just do not want the list used for personal vendettas,
> and/or turned into a battleground. And I do not want the vociferousness
> of an individual to make an opinion into an accepted fact. Without
> recourse to more data than we can get on this list we lack any other
> criteria for making decisions on these sorts of issues.
>
>
> > But when does your head come out of the sand, take a stand and look out for
> > the well being of others on the List?????
>
> If we could do this in a way that protected everyone and gave both sides
> a chance to voice their side, that would be fine. Given how vociferous
> some folks are and how often this comes up, however, it would turn this
> list into something else entirely. And there is no fair way to do it.
> Even if we give both sides a chance to speak, we still have only a
> he-said/she-said situation. You are talking about using the power of
> this list to prove and publicly identify fraud and that is not its
> purpose. That is for the courts to do. Trying to find a way around that
> is the first step towards vigilante justice.
>
>
> > It was said "At what point does this all step out of the realm of
> > Roadsters?" This is not a Saab Story, - the Datsun Roadster List is where
> > Datsun Roadster enthusiasts and owners reside, chat, and do business. If a
> > person on this List has been out right cheated, frauded or what have you and
> > has made a long term effort to resolve the problem over a roadster incident,
> > how can that not be in the realm of roadsters?
>
> How do we ascertain the facts and is that the purpose of this list? I
> know for a fact that several unfounded allegations have been made on
> this and other lists I have been on. I know it because I was privy to
> inside info, but were I just a guy on the list I would have no way of
> knowing which is right and which is wrong. We are not a court and we can
> not accuse and condemn the guilty. OTOH all of us can offer to give our
> personal opinion, in private, on a matter. And we can use the list to
> make that offer
>
> >
> > Sure, as Paul said, call the Better Business Bureau or hire a lawyer which
> > is great for a business. But the original question WAS NOT about the
> > suppliers who run a business. It was about an everyday person on the List
> > who may be cheating others. All suppliers I have dealt with so far have
> > been excellent!
>
> Well there isn't much you can do about the occasional fraudulent private
> deal, its a fact of life. I think what you did by making it known to the
> list that you felt there was someone out there behaving badly was the
> best thing to do. And also the best that this list can offer by way of help.
>
> > Yes, I am quite sure people who fraud appreciate not having their names
> > posted. And they will applaud you because it makes it that much easier to
> > cheat someone.
>
> This is exactly the point. I know nothing of the situation, but just
> because you feel he defrauded you is not *proof* that he did so. Our
> laws still require us to prove in a court of law that someone engaged in
> fraud. To suggest that in lieu of that, because it is too hard or too
> costly, we should allow the list to be used as a soapbox for anyone with
> an axe to grind or a score to settle is where I have a problem. The list
> is not the place for each case of a deal gone bad (private or business)
> to be argued out.
>
> > Lets think about the new people on the List for a moment who are directly
> > contacted after making a request of the List. The List on the whole is a
> > wealth of information and full of really great people. And those reasons
> > alone are what made me drive to Shasta (first time) for only 8 hours on
> > Saturday. I met a lot of nice people there and it allowed me to get back
> > issues of the Z Car Magazine. But, - my understanding is there was another
> > hit and run guy on the List a while back selling crap and then disappeared.
> > How many people got stung by that individual because others didn't want the
> > name posted?
>
> Conversely, how many innocent people will have their reputation ruined
> or their honesty questioned unfairly because we let anyone who has a
> grudge accuse them of things they didn't do (oh yes it will happen, it's
> been tried before on this very list, and it can easily succeed. On a
> larger scale that's the point of the salem witch hunts and McCarthy,
> once the lie has been said enough by enough people it becomes fact and
> even after the "fact" is exposed as a lie the reputations are often not
> reclaimed). And what about all those misunderstandings that end up blown
> out of proportion? Can I now publish on the list every time someone
> gives me a bad check? Doing so might protect others, especially other
> businesses. But all of that is beside the point that this list is not an
> adequate forum for resolving this and does not have adequate safeguards
> for use as a consumer protection service.
>
> As always just my opine ;-)
>
> --
> Marc Sayer
> Editor/Publisher
> Z Car & Classic Datsun Magazine
> http://zcarmag.com
> Voice 541-726-6001
> Fax 541-746-0863/726-6001
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