Concerned wrote:
>
> A question was asked and NOT answered.
>
> Except by Paul at OROC! : - )) That answer was No.
Non answers are the same as a no in this case, If anyone had done such a
thing or knew of such a thing they would have told you.
> Somewhere it shifted to Roadster Suppliers and again was not directed there!
Well that line gets very blurry at times. Is the guy selling parts out
of his garage a business or a person. All businesses are in fact
persons. My post was not an attempt to shift the focus but to point out
that the nature of the list required us to consider a broader focus. On
a mailing list you have to treat businesses and individuals the same or
you would be discriminating against one group or the other, and that
wouldn't be fair. That was part of my point. I thought your original
post was right on. It did NOT accuse anyone of anything directly but it
made it clear that you had some specific beefs and opinions. Any of us
who cared could have emailed you for the info. That does save folks, who
are heads up enough to ask before they buy, from getting ripped off, but
does not turn this list into a he-said/she-said forum.
> Some of you are losing sight of the objective, which is to keep others on
> the List from being cheated.
Not at all. I just do not want the list used for personal vendettas,
and/or turned into a battleground. And I do not want the vociferousness
of an individual to make an opinion into an accepted fact. Without
recourse to more data than we can get on this list we lack any other
criteria for making decisions on these sorts of issues.
> But when does your head come out of the sand, take a stand and look out for
> the well being of others on the List?????
If we could do this in a way that protected everyone and gave both sides
a chance to voice their side, that would be fine. Given how vociferous
some folks are and how often this comes up, however, it would turn this
list into something else entirely. And there is no fair way to do it.
Even if we give both sides a chance to speak, we still have only a
he-said/she-said situation. You are talking about using the power of
this list to prove and publicly identify fraud and that is not its
purpose. That is for the courts to do. Trying to find a way around that
is the first step towards vigilante justice.
> It was said "At what point does this all step out of the realm of
> Roadsters?" This is not a Saab Story, - the Datsun Roadster List is where
> Datsun Roadster enthusiasts and owners reside, chat, and do business. If a
> person on this List has been out right cheated, frauded or what have you and
> has made a long term effort to resolve the problem over a roadster incident,
> how can that not be in the realm of roadsters?
How do we ascertain the facts and is that the purpose of this list? I
know for a fact that several unfounded allegations have been made on
this and other lists I have been on. I know it because I was privy to
inside info, but were I just a guy on the list I would have no way of
knowing which is right and which is wrong. We are not a court and we can
not accuse and condemn the guilty. OTOH all of us can offer to give our
personal opinion, in private, on a matter. And we can use the list to
make that offer
>
> Sure, as Paul said, call the Better Business Bureau or hire a lawyer which
> is great for a business. But the original question WAS NOT about the
> suppliers who run a business. It was about an everyday person on the List
> who may be cheating others. All suppliers I have dealt with so far have
> been excellent!
Well there isn't much you can do about the occasional fraudulent private
deal, its a fact of life. I think what you did by making it known to the
list that you felt there was someone out there behaving badly was the
best thing to do. And also the best that this list can offer by way of help.
> Yes, I am quite sure people who fraud appreciate not having their names
> posted. And they will applaud you because it makes it that much easier to
> cheat someone.
This is exactly the point. I know nothing of the situation, but just
because you feel he defrauded you is not *proof* that he did so. Our
laws still require us to prove in a court of law that someone engaged in
fraud. To suggest that in lieu of that, because it is too hard or too
costly, we should allow the list to be used as a soapbox for anyone with
an axe to grind or a score to settle is where I have a problem. The list
is not the place for each case of a deal gone bad (private or business)
to be argued out.
> Lets think about the new people on the List for a moment who are directly
> contacted after making a request of the List. The List on the whole is a
> wealth of information and full of really great people. And those reasons
> alone are what made me drive to Shasta (first time) for only 8 hours on
> Saturday. I met a lot of nice people there and it allowed me to get back
> issues of the Z Car Magazine. But, - my understanding is there was another
> hit and run guy on the List a while back selling crap and then disappeared.
> How many people got stung by that individual because others didn't want the
> name posted?
Conversely, how many innocent people will have their reputation ruined
or their honesty questioned unfairly because we let anyone who has a
grudge accuse them of things they didn't do (oh yes it will happen, it's
been tried before on this very list, and it can easily succeed. On a
larger scale that's the point of the salem witch hunts and McCarthy,
once the lie has been said enough by enough people it becomes fact and
even after the "fact" is exposed as a lie the reputations are often not
reclaimed). And what about all those misunderstandings that end up blown
out of proportion? Can I now publish on the list every time someone
gives me a bad check? Doing so might protect others, especially other
businesses. But all of that is beside the point that this list is not an
adequate forum for resolving this and does not have adequate safeguards
for use as a consumer protection service.
As always just my opine ;-)
--
Marc Sayer
Editor/Publisher
Z Car & Classic Datsun Magazine
http://zcarmag.com
Voice 541-726-6001
Fax 541-746-0863/726-6001
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