--===============0567873880149572460==
boundary="Apple-Mail=_68202C02-56F1-4A01-AA8D-FAD7E5DAD309"
--Apple-Mail=_68202C02-56F1-4A01-AA8D-FAD7E5DAD309
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
charset=utf-8
And if it hasn=E2=80=99t been said already, as I understand it, the =
times it causes the A arm mount pins to break is when someone is =
reversing at full lock. So always avoid full lock on reverse.
> On Oct 1, 2021, at 8:54 AM, Michael Wood via Tigers =
<tigers@autox.team.net> wrote:
>=20
> Gary, I think you nailed it, reverse Ackermann leads to some funky =
slip angles and strangely heavy steering, particularly felt at low =
speeds...the front tires are literally fighting each other. The fact we =
all typically add wider wheels makes the steering even heavier (both =
contact patch to move around and scrub radius). Finally, maxing out =
caster with wedges (which I do) makes it even worse!=20
> The longer MG steering arms help, I've found on cars I've driven so =
equipped, but I haven't bothered to do on my car. Toe out changes the =
slip angle and also helps get the car to turn in, but I only go to toe =
out (1/4") when autocrossing, as toe out also is a great way to kill =
tires. Besides the poor camber curve, Ackerman is another reason why I =
run as much negative camber as possible...if the outside wheel isn't =
technically aligned to the turn radius correctly, at least I can =
maximize the unaligned contact patch in roll lol. Funny thing, even the =
real experts I've read can't seem to agree on "Ackermann", because there =
are so many other variables.
> I don't know, outside of a custom solution like Dale's or Hokanson's =
front ends, of a real fix. I've just learned to live with heavy =
steering, but if it really is a problem, going to stock width wheels and =
smaller section width tires really makes a difference. The electric =
power steering solution has gotten to be a pretty easy deal, but that =
obviously does nothing to address the underlying geometry issues.
> Mike
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: GARY WINBLAD <garywinblad@comcast.net>
> To: Lance Beauchamp <blance598@gmail.com>; Tiger List =
<tigers@autox.team.net>
> Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 7:42 am
> Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension
>=20
> Lance,
> There are a couple more expensive solutions that might be still =
available.
> Dale did design and make an entire front crossmember/suspension. It =
fixed the geometry but was about $5K
> last I heard, and he might have stopped making them.
> People (mostly in EU) have put in electric power steering. It mounts =
up under the dash so it all looks stock,
> would be great in a parking lot or tight course. Others have put in =
conventional hydraulic power steering.
> Shelby had his guys put in a Miata power rack in his wife's Tiger for =
instance.
> Gary
>=20
>> On 10/01/2021 9:36 AM Lance Beauchamp <blance598@gmail.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> So it is what it is, end of story, thank very much for a really good =
explanation, still love the car. Beau=20
>>=20
>> On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 10:13 PM GARY WINBLAD <garywinblad@comcast.net =
>> HI Lance,
>> Steering geometry is a real problem. Shelby throwing the rack way =
out in front of the engine was a quick solution.
>> Rootes didn't want to change a Shelby design... so we suffer today. =
Doane knew it was a problem but he thought
>> Rootes would build a new crossmember.
>> The problem is when you go around a corner, the inside wheel needs to =
run a smaller radius turn than the outside.
>> Toe in on turns or Ackerman geometry is what it is called. The =
Tiger has reverse Ackerman, the inner wheel turns
>> a larger radius! When I used to push my Tiger out to my slightly =
downhill driveway it was easier to turn the wheel
>> full lock than to reach down and pull the parking brake... what a =
great design Shelby!
>> On a tight autocross course or a parking lot this is really less than =
ideal... MIKE analysis??
>> On a big course it might not make such a difference though Jim Adams =
said he had to "toss the Tiger like a sprint
>> car" (keeping it jumping and sliding rather than be smooth.. I hear =
that as...).
>>=20
>> Longer MGB steering arms and initial toe-out is the small solution =
Dale has...
>> You may notice, its hard to turn the wheel at slow speeds, especially =
with big sticky tires.
>> But once you go into a fairly tight turn, it becomes easier as both =
tires lose contact.. and the Tiger goes straight
>> off the corner...
>>=20
>> Mike, do I have it anywhere correct?
>> Gary W.
>>=20
>>> On 09/30/2021 9:55 PM Lance Beauchamp <blance598@gmail.com =
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> You say you spend alot of time on suspension Gary, can you tell me =
how to make the Tiger easier to turn at lower speeds, like 15 mph or =
under. I always blame the steering geometry, is it all that? Beau=20
> _______________________________________________
>=20
>=20
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html =
<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers =
<http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers>http://autox.team.net/archive =
<http://autox.team.net/archive>
>=20
> Unsubscribe: =
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/mwood24020@aol.com =
<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/mwood24020@aol.com>
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
>=20
> tigers@autox.team.net
>=20
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers =
http://autox.team.net/archive
>=20
> Unsubscribe: =
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/jay.laifman@gmail.com
>=20
>=20
--Apple-Mail=_68202C02-56F1-4A01-AA8D-FAD7E5DAD309
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
charset=utf-8
<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">And =
if it hasn=E2=80=99t been said already, as I understand it, the times it =
causes the A arm mount pins to break is when someone is reversing at =
full lock. So always avoid full lock on reverse.<br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 1, 2021, at 8:54 AM, Michael Wood via Tigers <<a =
href=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net"; =
class=3D"">tigers@autox.team.net</a>> wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; =
font-size: 10pt;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: =
arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: black;" =
class=3D"">Gary, I think you nailed it, reverse Ackermann leads to some =
funky slip angles and strangely heavy steering, particularly felt at low =
speeds...the front tires are literally fighting each other. The fact we =
all typically add wider wheels makes the steering even heavier (both =
contact patch to move around and scrub radius). Finally, maxing out =
caster with wedges (which I do) makes it even worse! </div><div =
style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;" =
data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: =
10pt; color: black;" class=3D"">The longer MG steering arms help, I've =
found on cars I've driven so equipped, but I haven't bothered to do on =
my car. Toe out changes the slip angle and also helps get the car to =
turn in, but I only go to toe out (1/4") when autocrossing, as toe out =
also is a great way to kill tires. Besides the poor camber curve, =
Ackerman is another reason why I run as much negative camber as =
possible...if the outside wheel isn't technically aligned to the turn =
radius correctly, at least I can maximize the unaligned contact patch in =
roll lol. Funny thing, even the real experts I've read can't seem to =
agree on "Ackermann", because there are so many other =
variables.</div><div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; =
font-size: 10pt;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: =
arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: black;" class=3D"">I =
don't know, outside of a custom solution like Dale's or Hokanson's front =
ends, of a real fix. I've just learned to live with heavy steering, but =
if it really is a problem, going to stock width wheels and smaller =
section width tires really makes a difference. The electric power =
steering solution has gotten to be a pretty easy deal, but that =
obviously does nothing to address the underlying geometry =
issues.</div><div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; =
font-size: 10pt;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: =
arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: black;" =
class=3D"">Mike<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">-----Original =
Message-----<br class=3D"">From: GARY WINBLAD <<a =
href=3D"mailto:garywinblad@comcast.net"; =
class=3D"">garywinblad@comcast.net</a>><br class=3D"">To: Lance =
Beauchamp <<a href=3D"mailto:blance598@gmail.com"; =
class=3D"">blance598@gmail.com</a>>; Tiger List <<a =
href=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net"; =
class=3D"">tigers@autox.team.net</a>><br class=3D"">Sent: Fri, Oct 1, =
2021 7:42 am<br class=3D"">Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div id=3D"yiv9946714849" class=3D"">
=20
=20
=20
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
Lance,
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv9946714849default-style">
There are a couple more expensive solutions that might be still =
available.
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv9946714849default-style">
Dale did design and make an entire front =
crossmember/suspension. It fixed the geometry but was about $5K
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv9946714849default-style">
last I heard, and he might have stopped making them.
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv9946714849default-style">
People (mostly in EU) have put in electric power steering. It =
mounts up under the dash so it all looks stock,
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv9946714849default-style">
would be great in a parking lot or tight course. Others have =
put in conventional hydraulic power steering.
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv9946714849default-style">
Shelby had his guys put in a Miata power rack in his wife's Tiger for =
instance.
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv9946714849default-style">
Gary
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv9946714849default-style">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
On 10/01/2021 9:36 AM Lance Beauchamp <<a =
href=3D"mailto:blance598@gmail.com"; class=3D"">blance598@gmail.com</a>>=
wrote:
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">
So it is what it is, end of story, thank very much for a really good =
explanation, still love the car. Beau
</div>
<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"yiv9946714849gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"yiv9946714849gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">
On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 10:13 PM GARY WINBLAD <<a rel=3D"nofollow =
noopener noreferrer" ymailto=3D"mailto:garywinblad@comcast.net"; =
target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:garywinblad@comcast.net"; =
class=3D"">garywinblad@comcast.net</a>> wrote:
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"">
<u class=3D""></u>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
HI Lance,
</div>
<div class=3D"">
Steering geometry is a real problem. Shelby throwing the =
rack way out in front of the engine was a quick solution.
</div>
<div class=3D"">
Rootes didn't want to change a Shelby design... so we suffer =
today. Doane knew it was a problem but he thought
</div>
<div class=3D"">
Rootes would build a new crossmember.
</div>
<div class=3D"">
The problem is when you go around a corner, the inside wheel =
needs to run a smaller radius turn than the outside.
</div>
<div class=3D"">
Toe in on turns or Ackerman geometry is what it is called. =
The Tiger has reverse Ackerman, the inner wheel turns
</div>
<div class=3D"">
a larger radius! When I used to push my Tiger out to my =
slightly downhill driveway it was easier to turn the wheel
</div>
<div class=3D"">
full lock than to reach down and pull the parking brake... what a =
great design Shelby!
</div>
<div class=3D"">
On a tight autocross course or a parking lot this is really less =
than ideal... MIKE analysis??
</div>
<div class=3D"">
On a big course it might not make such a difference though Jim =
Adams said he had to "toss the Tiger like a sprint
</div>
<div class=3D"">
car" (keeping it jumping and sliding rather than be =
smooth.. I hear that as...).
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">
Longer MGB steering arms and initial toe-out is the small =
solution Dale has...
</div>
<div class=3D"">
You may notice, its hard to turn the wheel at slow speeds, =
especially with big sticky tires.
</div>
<div class=3D"">
But once you go into a fairly tight turn, it becomes easier as =
both tires lose contact.. and the Tiger goes straight
</div>
<div class=3D"">
off the corner...
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">
Mike, do I have it anywhere correct?
</div>
<div class=3D"">
Gary W.
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
On 09/30/2021 9:55 PM Lance Beauchamp <<a rel=3D"nofollow =
noopener noreferrer" ymailto=3D"mailto:blance598@gmail.com"; =
target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:blance598@gmail.com"; =
class=3D"">blance598@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">
You say you spend alot of time on suspension Gary, can you tell =
me how to make the Tiger easier to turn at lower speeds, like 15 mph or =
under. I always blame the steering geometry, is it all =
that? Beau
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>_______________________________________________<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><a ymailto=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net"; =
href=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net"; =
class=3D"">tigers@autox.team.net</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Donate: =
<a href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html"; target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br class=3D"">Archive: <a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers"; target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers </a><a =
href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive"; target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">http://autox.team.net/archive</a><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Unsubscribe: <a =
href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/mwood24020@aol.com"; =
target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/mwood24020@aol.com=
</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net"; =
class=3D"">tigers@autox.team.net</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Donate: =
http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Unsubscribe: =
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/jay.laifman@gmail.com<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></body></html>=
--Apple-Mail=_68202C02-56F1-4A01-AA8D-FAD7E5DAD309--
--===============0567873880149572460==
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
_______________________________________________
tigers@autox.team.net
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive
Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/mharc@autox.team.net
--===============0567873880149572460==--
|