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Very cool, Jim. Thanks for sharing the details, particularly the math aroun=
d camber with the change in UCA angle :)
-----Original Message-----
From: jim <jim@island.net>
To: 'Michael Wood' <mwood24020@aol.com>; garywinblad@comcast.net; blance598=
@gmail.com; tigers@autox.team.net
Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 10:22 am
Subject: RE: [Tigers] Front suspension
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I=E2=80=99m definitely a layman but like to tweak things !!!
=C2=A0
My car has the 1976 suspension tuning added holes to fully relocate the upp=
er A-arms and I=E2=80=99ve kept that setup. Other than minimal shimming for=
castor the camber will NOT go to zero ( or positive) and I have about 1 de=
gree negative =E2=80=A6 I have a unique brake setup with 11=E2=80=9D Porsch=
e rotors on adapters and Wilwood Dynalite =C2=A0calipers behind 14=E2=80=9D=
3 piece wheels. I changed the steering arms to the MGB one when I installe=
d the Mazda power steering. The mounting holes for the MGB arms are paralle=
l =C2=A0so require a spacer to mount them in stock location. I saw a potent=
ial ( because my Wilwood brake mount ) to move the steering arm outboard bu=
t that would also require the caliper and rotor to move the same amount. I =
managed to move it all outboard =C2=BC=E2=80=9D and with the slight offset =
of the MGB arm, it=E2=80=99s almost =C2=BD=E2=80=9D gain in reality. I bolt=
ed the wheels back on and it =E2=80=98seemed=E2=80=99 to spin freely so I t=
ook it for a drive and heard a slight =E2=80=98ticking=E2=80=99 in the whee=
ls. It turned out that both wheels had a couple of stick on wheel weights o=
n the inside and the calipers were just grazing the as they are about 1/8=
=E2=80=9D thick. A couple minutes with the grinder shaved off enough and it=
s never been a problem since!=C2=A0 I did the math back then and can=E2=80=
=99t remember exactly but it certainly ( on paper ) improved the ackerman
Maybe I shouldn=E2=80=99t have cancelled my =E2=80=9Chokanson=E2=80=99 fron=
t end order years ago but what would I do with my free time ??=C2=A0 lol!
=C2=A0
Jim
B382000446
=C2=A0
From: Tigers <tigers-bounces@autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Michael Wood via =
Tigers
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2021 9:37 AM
To: garywinblad@comcast.net; blance598@gmail.com; tigers@autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension
=C2=A0
I'm far from expert...maybe a layman open to experimenting lol=C2=A0
=C2=A0
I think a lot of guys building Mustangs, Camaros etc still do the Shelby dr=
op (relocating the upper control arm downwards). But, I don't know how it w=
ould work on a Tiger, as we run into control arm clearance to unibody issue=
s pretty quickly at the fastener to the rear (if you follow what I'm saying=
) when shimming for negative camber. That clearance becomes even less when =
you start looking at dropping the physical location of the UCA. So, the que=
stion would be whether the negative camber gained in drop would offset the =
loss of ability to shim, I guess. But, yeah, the camber curve should improv=
e.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Wonder if anyone has done it?
=C2=A0
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: GARY WINBLAD <garywinblad@comcast.net>
To: Michael Wood <mwood24020@aol.com>; blance598@gmail.com <blance598@gmail=
.com>; tigers@autox.team.net <tigers@autox.team.net>
Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 9:23 am
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension
Mike,=20
Thanks for your expert analysis!=20
Yes, I never did find what Ackerman is best either..=C2=A0 I heard Doane sp=
eak and he said the reverse Ackerman is actually an advantage when you are=
=20
countersteering (what I think he meant).=C2=A0 I wrote a program to figure =
out how it works on the Tiger.=C2=A0 Turns out Ackerman is not really that =
bad until=20
you get to pretty extreme steering angles, so on a big track it isn't reall=
y that bad.=C2=A0 And with initial toe-out dialed in it might not be that b=
ad on a really=20
tight course.=C2=A0 And because of the fulcrum pin issue, I NEVER go full l=
ock anymore, even parking.=20
Yeah camber... why did the lowered a-arm trick seem to work back in the day=
but isn't used anymore?=C2=A0 The GT-350s I have looked at still have it.=
=20
I know it was bad for braking but so is initial negative camber?=20
Heavy steering, why I left my big stock steering wheel.=20
Gary=20
=C2=A0
On 10/01/2021 11:54 AM Michael Wood <mwood24020@aol.com> wrote:=20
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Gary, I think you nailed it, reverse Ackermann leads to some funky slip ang=
les and strangely heavy steering, particularly felt at low speeds...the fro=
nt tires are literally fighting each other. The fact we all typically add w=
ider wheels makes the steering even heavier (both contact patch to move aro=
und and scrub radius). Finally, maxing out caster with wedges (which I do) =
makes it even worse!=C2=A0=20
The longer MG steering arms help, I've found on cars I've driven so equippe=
d, but I haven't bothered to do on my car. Toe out changes the slip angle a=
nd also helps get the car to turn in, but I only go to toe out (1/4") when =
autocrossing, as toe out also is a great way to kill tires. Besides the poo=
r camber curve, Ackerman is another reason why I run as much negative cambe=
r as possible...if the outside wheel isn't technically aligned to the turn =
radius correctly, at least I can maximize the unaligned contact patch in ro=
ll lol. Funny thing, even the real experts I've read can't seem to agree on=
"Ackermann", because there are so many other variables.=20
I don't know, outside of a custom solution like Dale's or Hokanson's front =
ends, of a real fix. I've just learned to live with heavy steering, but if =
it really is a problem, going to stock width wheels and smaller section wid=
th tires really makes a difference. The electric power steering solution ha=
s gotten to be a pretty easy=C2=A0deal, but that obviously does nothing to =
address the underlying geometry issues.=20
Mike=20
-----Original Message-----=20
From: GARY WINBLAD <garywinblad@comcast.net>=20
To: Lance Beauchamp <blance598@gmail.com>; Tiger List <tigers@autox.team.ne=
t>=20
Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 7:42 am=20
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension=20
Lance,=20
=C2=A0There are a couple more expensive solutions that might be still avail=
able.=20
Dale did design and make an entire front crossmember/suspension.=C2=A0 It f=
ixed the geometry but was about $5K=20
last I heard, and he might have stopped making them.=20
People (mostly in EU) have put in electric power steering.=C2=A0 It mounts =
up under the dash so it all looks stock,=20
would be great in a parking lot or tight course.=C2=A0 Others have put in c=
onventional hydraulic power steering.=20
Shelby had his guys put in a Miata power rack in his wife's Tiger for insta=
nce.=20
Gary=20
=C2=A0
On 10/01/2021 9:36 AM Lance Beauchamp <blance598@gmail.com> wrote:=20
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
So it is what it is, end of story, thank very much for a really good explan=
ation,=C2=A0 still love the car. Beau=C2=A0=20
=C2=A0
On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 10:13 PM GARY WINBLAD <garywinblad@comcast.net> wrote=
:=20
HI Lance,=20
Steering geometry is a real problem.=C2=A0 Shelby throwing the rack way out=
in front of the engine was a quick solution.=20
Rootes didn't want to change a Shelby design... so we suffer today.=C2=A0 D=
oane knew it was a problem but he thought=20
Rootes would build a new crossmember.=20
The problem is when you go around a corner, the inside wheel needs to run a=
smaller radius turn than the outside.=20
Toe in on turns or Ackerman geometry is what it is called.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The =
Tiger has reverse Ackerman, the inner wheel turns=20
a larger radius!=C2=A0 When I used to push my Tiger out to my slightly down=
hill driveway it was easier to turn the wheel=20
full lock than to reach down and pull the parking brake... what a great des=
ign Shelby!=20
On a tight autocross course or a parking lot this is really less than ideal=
...=C2=A0 MIKE analysis??=20
On a big course it might not make such a difference though Jim Adams said h=
e had to "toss the Tiger like a sprint=20
car"=C2=A0 (keeping it jumping and sliding rather than be smooth.. I hear t=
hat as...).=20
=C2=A0
Longer MGB steering arms and initial toe-out is the small solution Dale has=
...=20
You may notice, its hard to turn the wheel at slow speeds, especially with =
big sticky tires.=20
But once you go into a fairly tight turn, it becomes easier as both tires l=
ose contact.. and the Tiger goes straight=20
off the corner...=20
=C2=A0
Mike, do I have it anywhere correct?=20
Gary W.=20
=C2=A0
On 09/30/2021 9:55 PM Lance Beauchamp <blance598@gmail.com> wrote:=20
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
You say you spend alot of time on suspension Gary, can you tell me how to m=
ake the Tiger easier to turn at lower speeds, like 15 mph or under. I alway=
s=C2=A0 blame the steering=C2=A0 geometry,=C2=A0 is it all that?=C2=A0 Beau=
=C2=A0=20
_______________________________________________=20
tigers@autox.team.net=20
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive=
=20
Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/mwood24020@aol.co=
m=20
------=_Part_520073_600612928.1633109760450
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:b=
lack;"><div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10=
pt; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">Very cool, Jim. Thanks for sharing the d=
etails, particularly the math around camber with the change in UCA angle :)=
</div><div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10p=
t; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif=
; font-size: 10pt; color: black;"><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>Fro=
m: jim <jim@island.net><br>To: 'Michael Wood' <mwood24020@aol.com&=
gt;; garywinblad@comcast.net; blance598@gmail.com; tigers@autox.team.net<br=
>Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 10:22 am<br>Subject: RE: [Tigers] Front suspension<=
br><br></div><div id=3D"yiv0727719321"><style><!--
#yiv0727719321 =20
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--></style><div><div class=3D"yiv0727719321WordSection1"><p class=3D"yiv072=
7719321MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA">I=E2=80=99m definitely a layman but =
like to tweak things !!!</span></p><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-CA"> </span></p><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-CA">My car has the 1976 suspension tuning added holes to fully=
relocate the upper A-arms and I=E2=80=99ve kept that setup. Other than min=
imal shimming for castor the camber will NOT go to zero ( or positive) and =
I have about 1 degree negative =E2=80=A6 I have a unique brake setup with 1=
1=E2=80=9D Porsche rotors on adapters and Wilwood Dynalite calipers b=
ehind 14=E2=80=9D 3 piece wheels. I changed the steering arms to the MGB on=
e when I installed the Mazda power steering. The mounting holes for the MGB=
arms are parallel so require a spacer to mount them in stock locatio=
n. I saw a potential ( because my Wilwood brake mount ) to move the steerin=
g arm outboard but that would also require the caliper and rotor to move th=
e same amount. I managed to move it all outboard =C2=BC=E2=80=9D and with t=
he slight offset of the MGB arm, it=E2=80=99s almost =C2=BD=E2=80=9D gain i=
n reality. I bolted the wheels back on and it =E2=80=98seemed=E2=80=99 to s=
pin freely so I took it for a drive and heard a slight =E2=80=98ticking=E2=
=80=99 in the wheels. It turned out that both wheels had a couple of stick =
on wheel weights on the inside and the calipers were just grazing the as th=
ey are about 1/8=E2=80=9D thick. A couple minutes with the grinder shaved o=
ff enough and its never been a problem since! I did the math back the=
n and can=E2=80=99t remember exactly but it certainly ( on paper ) improved=
the ackerman</span></p><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"E=
N-CA">Maybe I shouldn=E2=80=99t have cancelled my =E2=80=9Chokanson=E2=80=
=99 front end order years ago but what would I do with my free time ?? =
; lol!</span></p><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA"> =
</span></p><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA">J=
im</span></p><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA">B3820=
00446</span><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-family: UI sans-serif;" data=
-mce-style=3D"font-family: UI sans-serif;"></span></p><p class=3D"yiv072771=
9321MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA"> </span></p><div class=3D"yiv0727=
719321yqt1928006009" id=3D"yiv0727719321yqt55959"><div style=3D"border: non=
e; border-top: solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding: 3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;" data-mce-s=
tyle=3D"border: none; border-top: solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding: 3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in;"><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Tigers <tigers=
-bounces@autox.team.net> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Michael Wood via Tigers<br =
clear=3D"none"><b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 01, 2021 9:37 AM<br clear=3D"no=
ne"><b>To:</b> garywinblad@comcast.net; blance598@gmail.com; tigers@autox.t=
eam.net<br clear=3D"none"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tigers] Front suspension</p>=
</div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"> </p><div><div><p class=3D"=
yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans=
-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sa=
ns-serif; color: black;">I'm far from expert...maybe a layman open to exper=
imenting lol </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"=
><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" =
data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;=
"> </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-=
style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">I think=
a lot of guys building Mustangs, Camaros etc still do the Shelby drop (rel=
ocating the upper control arm downwards). But, I don't know how it would wo=
rk on a Tiger, as we run into control arm clearance to unibody issues prett=
y quickly at the fastener to the rear (if you follow what I'm saying) when =
shimming for negative camber. That clearance becomes even less when you sta=
rt looking at dropping the physical location of the UCA. So, the question w=
ould be whether the negative camber gained in drop would offset the loss of=
ability to shim, I guess. But, yeah, the camber curve should improve. =
;</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D=
"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;"> </span><=
/p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-siz=
e: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Wonder if anyone has don=
e it?</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-sty=
le=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;"> </s=
pan></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-=
size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"fon=
t-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Mike</span></p></di=
v><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12.0pt;"=
data-mce-style=3D"margin-bottom: 12.0pt;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt=
; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0=
pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D=
"none">-----Original Message-----<br clear=3D"none">From: GARY WINBLAD <=
</span><a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"ma=
ilto:garywinblad@comcast.net" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:garywinblad@=
comcast.net"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;" da=
ta-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;">garywinblad@co=
mcast.net</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-ser=
if; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-s=
erif; color: black;">><br clear=3D"none">To: Michael Wood <</span><a =
rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:mwood=
24020@aol.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:mwood24020@aol.com";><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font=
-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;">mwood24020@aol.com</span></a><span=
style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-m=
ce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">>=
; </span><a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"=
mailto:blance598@gmail.com"; target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:blance598@gmai=
l.com"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;" data-mce=
-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;">blance598@gmail.com<=
/span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color:=
black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; colo=
r: black;"> <</span><a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rec=
t" ymailto=3D"mailto:blance598@gmail.com"; target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:=
blance598@gmail.com"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-se=
rif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;">blance=
598@gmail.com</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans=
-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sa=
ns-serif; color: black;">>; </span><a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferre=
r" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank=
" href=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net";><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; f=
ont-family: sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: =
sans-serif;">tigers@autox.team.net</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0=
pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10=
.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;"> <</span><a rel=3D"nofollo=
w noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.n=
et" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net";><span style=3D"=
font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 1=
0.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;">tigers@autox.team.net</span></a><span styl=
e=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-st=
yle=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">><br c=
lear=3D"none">Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 9:23 am<br clear=3D"none">Subject: Re:=
[Tigers] Front suspension</span></p></div><div id=3D"yiv0727719321"><div><=
div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; f=
ont-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt;=
font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Mike, </span></p></div><div><p cla=
ss=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family=
: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-fami=
ly: sans-serif; color: black;">Thanks for your expert analysis! </span></p>=
</div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10=
.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: =
10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Yes, I never did find what =
Ackerman is best either.. I heard Doane speak and he said the reverse=
Ackerman is actually an advantage when you are </span></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-famil=
y: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-fam=
ily: sans-serif; color: black;">countersteering (what I think he meant).&nb=
sp; I wrote a program to figure out how it works on the Tiger. Turns =
out Ackerman is not really that bad until </span></p></div><div><p class=3D=
"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: san=
s-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: s=
ans-serif; color: black;">you get to pretty extreme steering angles, so on =
a big track it isn't really that bad. And with initial toe-out dialed=
in it might not be that bad on a really </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"=
yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans=
-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sa=
ns-serif; color: black;">tight course. And because of the fulcrum pin=
issue, I NEVER go full lock anymore, even parking. </span></p></div><div><=
p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-f=
amily: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font=
-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Yeah camber... why did the lowered a-ar=
m trick seem to work back in the day but isn't used anymore? The GT-3=
50s I have looked at still have it. </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv07=
27719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-seri=
f; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-se=
rif; color: black;">I know it was bad for braking but so is initial negativ=
e camber? </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce=
-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Heavy =
steering, why I left my big stock steering wheel. </span></p></div><div><p =
class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-fam=
ily: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-f=
amily: sans-serif; color: black;">Gary </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yi=
v0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-s=
erif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans=
-serif; color: black;"> </span></p></div><div id=3D"yiv0727719321yqt4=
3507"><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5.0pt; margin-bottom: 5.0pt;" data-m=
ce-style=3D"margin-top: 5.0pt; margin-bottom: 5.0pt;"><div><p class=3D"yiv0=
727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-ser=
if; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-s=
erif; color: black;">On 10/01/2021 11:54 AM Michael Wood <</span><a rel=
=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:mwood240=
20@aol.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:mwood24020@aol.com";><span styl=
e=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-si=
ze: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;">mwood24020@aol.com</span></a><span st=
yle=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-=
style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">> wr=
ote: </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-sty=
le=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;"> </s=
pan></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-=
size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"fon=
t-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;"> </span></p><=
/div><div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size=
: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-si=
ze: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Gary, I think you naile=
d it, reverse Ackermann leads to some funky slip angles and strangely heavy=
steering, particularly felt at low speeds...the front tires are literally =
fighting each other. The fact we all typically add wider wheels makes the s=
teering even heavier (both contact patch to move around and scrub radius). =
Finally, maxing out caster with wedges (which I do) makes it even worse!&nb=
sp; </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-sty=
le=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">The longer=
MG steering arms help, I've found on cars I've driven so equipped, but I h=
aven't bothered to do on my car. Toe out changes the slip angle and also he=
lps get the car to turn in, but I only go to toe out (1/4") when autocrossi=
ng, as toe out also is a great way to kill tires. Besides the poor camber c=
urve, Ackerman is another reason why I run as much negative camber as possi=
ble...if the outside wheel isn't technically aligned to the turn radius cor=
rectly, at least I can maximize the unaligned contact patch in roll lol. Fu=
nny thing, even the real experts I've read can't seem to agree on "Ackerman=
n", because there are so many other variables. </span></p></div><div><p cla=
ss=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family=
: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-fami=
ly: sans-serif; color: black;">I don't know, outside of a custom solution l=
ike Dale's or Hokanson's front ends, of a real fix. I've just learned to li=
ve with heavy steering, but if it really is a problem, going to stock width=
wheels and smaller section width tires really makes a difference. The elec=
tric power steering solution has gotten to be a pretty easy deal, but =
that obviously does nothing to address the underlying geometry issues. </sp=
an></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-botto=
m: 12.0pt;" data-mce-style=3D"margin-bottom: 12.0pt;"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font=
-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Mike <br clear=3D"no=
ne"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">-----Original Message----- <br cl=
ear=3D"none">From: GARY WINBLAD <</span><a rel=3D"nofollow noopener nore=
ferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:garywinblad@comcast.net"; target=3D=
"_blank" href=3D"mailto:garywinblad@comcast.net";><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font=
-family: sans-serif;">garywinblad@comcast.net</span></a><span style=3D"font=
-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"fo=
nt-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">> <br clear=3D"=
none">To: Lance Beauchamp <</span><a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer=
" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:blance598@gmail.com"; target=3D"_blank" h=
ref=3D"mailto:blance598@gmail.com";><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-f=
amily: sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-=
serif;">blance598@gmail.com</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; fon=
t-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; f=
ont-family: sans-serif; color: black;">>; Tiger List <</span><a rel=
=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:tigers@a=
utox.team.net" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net";><spa=
n style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"f=
ont-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;">tigers@autox.team.net</span></a=
><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" =
data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;=
">> <br clear=3D"none">Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 7:42 am <br clear=3D"none"=
>Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension </span></p></div><div id=3D"yiv0727=
719321"><div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font=
-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Lance, </span></p></=
div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0=
pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10=
.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;"> There are a couple more=
expensive solutions that might be still available. </span></p></div><div><=
p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-f=
amily: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font=
-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Dale did design and make an entire fron=
t crossmember/suspension. It fixed the geometry but was about $5K </s=
pan></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-=
size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"fon=
t-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">last I heard, and h=
e might have stopped making them. </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727=
719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;=
color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-seri=
f; color: black;">People (mostly in EU) have put in electric power steering=
. It mounts up under the dash so it all looks stock, </span></p></div=
><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt;=
font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0p=
t; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">would be great in a parking lot =
or tight course. Others have put in conventional hydraulic power stee=
ring. </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-sty=
le=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Shelby had=
his guys put in a Miata power rack in his wife's Tiger for instance. </spa=
n></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-=
size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Gary </span></p></div=
><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt;=
font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0p=
t; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;"> </span></p></div><blockqu=
ote style=3D"margin-top: 5.0pt; margin-bottom: 5.0pt;" data-mce-style=3D"ma=
rgin-top: 5.0pt; margin-bottom: 5.0pt;"><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNo=
rmal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: bla=
ck;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: b=
lack;">On 10/01/2021 9:36 AM Lance Beauchamp <</span><a rel=3D"nofollow =
noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:blance598@gmail.com"; =
target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:blance598@gmail.com";><span style=3D"font-s=
ize: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt;=
font-family: sans-serif;">blance598@gmail.com</span></a><span style=3D"fon=
t-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"f=
ont-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">> wrote: </spa=
n></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-=
size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;"> </span></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0p=
t; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.=
0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;"> </span></p></div><div><=
p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-f=
amily: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font=
-family: sans-serif; color: black;">So it is what it is, end of story, than=
k very much for a really good explanation, still love the car. Beau&n=
bsp; </span></p></div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"=
font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;"> </span></=
p><div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 1=
0.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 10:1=
3 PM GARY WINBLAD <</span><a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=
=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:garywinblad@comcast.net"; target=3D"_blank" href=
=3D"mailto:garywinblad@comcast.net";><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-=
family: sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans=
-serif;">garywinblad@comcast.net</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt=
; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0=
pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">> wrote: </span></p></div><b=
lockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5.0pt; margin-bottom: 5.0pt;" data-mce-style=
=3D"margin-top: 5.0pt; margin-bottom: 5.0pt;"><div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727=
719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;=
color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-seri=
f; color: black;">HI Lance, </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321=
MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color=
: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; col=
or: black;">Steering geometry is a real problem. Shelby throwing the =
rack way out in front of the engine was a quick solution. </span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; =
font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt=
; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Rootes didn't want to change a Sh=
elby design... so we suffer today. Doane knew it was a problem but he=
thought </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-=
style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Rootes =
would build a new crossmember. </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719=
321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; co=
lor: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; =
color: black;">The problem is when you go around a corner, the inside wheel=
needs to run a smaller radius turn than the outside. </span></p></div><div=
><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font=
-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; fo=
nt-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Toe in on turns or Ackerman geometry =
is what it is called. The Tiger has reverse Ackerman, the inner=
wheel turns </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-=
mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">a l=
arger radius! When I used to push my Tiger out to my slightly downhil=
l driveway it was easier to turn the wheel </span></p></div><div><p class=
=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: =
sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family=
: sans-serif; color: black;">full lock than to reach down and pull the park=
ing brake... what a great design Shelby! </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"=
yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans=
-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sa=
ns-serif; color: black;">On a tight autocross course or a parking lot this =
is really less than ideal... MIKE analysis?? </span></p></div><div><p=
class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-fa=
mily: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-=
family: sans-serif; color: black;">On a big course it might not make such a=
difference though Jim Adams said he had to "toss the Tiger like a sprint <=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"f=
ont-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">car" (keepi=
ng it jumping and sliding rather than be smooth.. I hear that as...). </spa=
n></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-=
size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;"> </span></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0p=
t; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.=
0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Longer MGB steering arms and i=
nitial toe-out is the small solution Dale has... </span></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-fami=
ly: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-fa=
mily: sans-serif; color: black;">You may notice, its hard to turn the wheel=
at slow speeds, especially with big sticky tires. </span></p></div><div><p=
class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-fa=
mily: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-=
family: sans-serif; color: black;">But once you go into a fairly tight turn=
, it becomes easier as both tires lose contact.. and the Tiger goes straigh=
t </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"=
font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=
=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">off the corn=
er... </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-sty=
le=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;"> </s=
pan></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-=
size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"fon=
t-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">Mike, do I have it =
anywhere correct? </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"=
><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" =
data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;=
">Gary W. </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce=
-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">  =
;</span></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5.0pt; margin-bottom: 5.=
0pt;" data-mce-style=3D"margin-top: 5.0pt; margin-bottom: 5.0pt;"><div><p c=
lass=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-fami=
ly: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-fa=
mily: sans-serif; color: black;">On 09/30/2021 9:55 PM Lance Beauchamp <=
</span><a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"ma=
ilto:blance598@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:blance598@gmail.=
com"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;" data-mce-s=
tyle=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif;">blance598@gmail.com</s=
pan></a><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: b=
lack;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color:=
black;">> wrote: </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNorm=
al"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black=
;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: bla=
ck;"> </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span=
style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-m=
ce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;"> &nb=
sp;</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv0727719321MsoNormal"><span style=3D=
"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;" data-mce-style=
=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: sans-serif; color: black;">You say you =
spend alot of time on suspension Gary, can you tell me how to make the Tige=
r easier to turn at lower speeds, like 15 mph or under. I always blam=
e the steering geometry, is it all that? Beau </spa=
n></p></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div>=
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