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That is good info and an important consideration. But we also have to
consider the application in which it will be used. For applications
subjected to constant and long term vibration, work hardening in service
can be a real problem. We saw this on copper bus bars used in aircraft
back in the radial engine days. There was sufficient vibration transmitted
to every part of those aircraft to work harden just about anything.
Occasionally one of the copper bus bars would crack and begin arcing. I
certainly hope that an RV would never experience that level of vibration,
but it is going to see more than a stationary application would. These
days most aircraft bus bars are supplied and used half hard. But I do know
guys working on warbirds sometimes anneal them.
Interestingly, MIL Spec for aircraft bus bars also required cadmium
plating. I have never used one of those, but obviously do NOT recommend
trying to anneal one without first mechanically removing the plating. I
suspect that would be some rather nasty fumes.
On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 9:58 PM Tom Coradeschi <tjcora@icloud.com> wrote:
> It=E2=80=99s been decades since I=E2=80=99ve dealt with copper busbar, bu=
t even the half
> hard stuff you have (which presumably has been bent, so it=E2=80=99s work=
hardened
> slightly) is still pretty darn soft in absolute terms - esp when compared
> to ferrous materials.
>
> Annealing copper to the temperatures folks have noted will soften it. You
> can cool it slowly or quickly, it really won=E2=80=99t make any differenc=
e (unless
> you=E2=80=99re impatient, in which case cooling it quickly is always bett=
er).
>
> Back to the OP=E2=80=99s note, I would suggest that what you really want =
in such a
> situation is the hardest material you can get your hands on. I=E2=80=99m =
sure that
> sounds counterintuitive, but follow my train of thought for a bit. What=
=E2=80=99s I
> presume you=E2=80=99re looking to do - quite rightly - is to minimize the
> electrical resistance across the bolted connection.
>
> The interesting thing about electrical connections like those, is that a
> large surface area is only of value if it=E2=80=99s properly mechanically
> preloaded. Even machined surfaces, which appear flat (macroscopically), a=
re
> microscopically rough and probably have an oxide layer on them to boot.
> Holm=E2=80=99s work on defining a-spots as the mechanism for electron flo=
w through
> contacts has been expanded on by others in the field. Most of the math go=
es
> over my head these days, but generally speaking, surface prep and preload
> are key.
>
> Assuming that you=E2=80=99re using steel fasteners and washers, you=E2=80=
=99ve got a
> mechanical connection which is about twice as stiff as the conductors, so
> the number of fasteners is actually going to dominate the situation. In
> addition, if you back up the fasteners with steel (either plates or
> washers) to distribute the compressive load, you will be doing a lot to
> help yourself.
>
> We used to, routinely, run megampere (pulsed) currents through bolted
> copper and aluminum busbar connections. Surface prep was important
> (particularly for aluminum, which forms an oxide layer in nanoseconds on
> exposure to oxygen). In that regard, Electric Joint Compound (EJC) is
> critical for aluminum, and quite helpful for copper connections. One lab
> was all aluminum busbar, and had literally hundreds of bolted connections
> (it was a fairly sophisticated set of pulse forming modules). Much of thi=
s
> busbar had been through bending processes and we did nothing to it in ter=
ms
> of material properties. What we did do was pay careful attention to the
> cleaning, EJC application and bolt preload on assembly. We also measured
> the resistance across each connection and documented it - spot checking i=
t
> was a semi-annual maintenance check.
>
> Not sure any of the above really adds any true value, but it was fun to
> pull up some memories of my time as a Lab Rat, early in my career, so...
>
> =E2=80=94
> Tom Coradeschi
> tjcora@icloud.com
>
>
> > On 08 Aug 2020, at 10:21 AM, Pat Horne <patintexas@icloud.com> wrote:
> >
> > I thought quenching made the metal less soft.
> >
> > Annealing requires slow cooling.
> >
> > Peace,
> > Pat
> >
> > Pat Horne
> > We support Habitat for Humanity
> >
> >
> > On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> > =EF=BB=BF Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water, pres=
umably,
> or oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it's been heated 'cherry
> red?'
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > On 8/8/2020 6:43 AM, old dirtbeard wrote:
> >> I sort of like your idea about the self-cleaning oven cycle. It would
> be very even heat, the right temperature, should not hurt the oven.
> >>
> >> Maybe just wait to do it while the wife is away for an hour or so...
> :-)
> >>
> >> best,
> >>
> >> doug
> >>
> >> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 5:37 AM Pat Horne <patintexas@icloud.com> wrote=
:
> >> Pay a local shop with an oxy/acetylene rig to heat them? Muffler shop,
> body shop, A/C contractor? A/C contractor sometimes use air/acetylene. Wi=
ll
> that get hot enough?
> >>
> >> Peace,
> >> Pat
> >>
> >> Pat Horne
> >> We support Habitat for Humanity
> >>
> >>
> >> On Aug 7, 2020, at 11:25 PM, Jack Brooks <JIBrooks@live.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> =EF=BB=BF
> >> I have fabricated a number of 1/8 and 3/16th inch thick busbars for an
> Van RV build electrical system which I am assembling in my shop. The
> busbars are already bent to shape, but I=E2=80=99d like to anneal them, b=
ecause the
> copper was purchased in the =E2=80=9CHalf-Hard=E2=80=9D state and making=
them =E2=80=9CDead-Soft=E2=80=9D
> will insure that they lay completely flat to maximize the conductivity wh=
en
> I final assemble the system.
> >>
> >>
> >> I usually anneal copper by getting it hot enough to glow with a propan=
e
> torch and then allow it to cool. With the mass of these busbars, I can=
=E2=80=99t
> get them up to a temperature to where they glow with propane. An
> Oxy/Acetylene torch would work, but I don=E2=80=99t have one. MAPP gas i=
s hotter,
> but I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s a lot hotter.
> >>
> >>
> >> I am considering running them through the cleaning cycle in the
> self-cleaning over, as a self-cleaning oven will typically runs up to
> around 900=C2=B0F. Copper needs 700-1,200=C2=B0F to anneal, so it should=
be fine.
> >>
> >>
> >> I=E2=80=99d prefer almost any other solution. Thoughts? The last tim=
e I used
> our oven for a shop project, it was to cure the paint on the jugs
> (cylinders) of my =E2=80=9974 Norton motorcycle. Mrs. Jack was not happy=
. Copper
> bars should be fine as they won=E2=80=99t stink up the house.
> >>
> >>
> >> Thanks in advance,
> >>
> >>
> >> Jack
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Shop-talk@autox.team.net
> > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> > Suggested annual donation $12.96
> > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
> >
> > Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas@icloud.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Shop-talk@autox.team.net
> > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> > Suggested annual donation $12.96
> > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
> >
> > Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tjcora@icloud.com
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk@autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
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>
>
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D Never offend people with style when you =3D
=3D can offend with substance --- Sam Brown =3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>That is good info and an important consideration.=C2=
=A0 But we also have to consider the application in which it will be used.=
=C2=A0 For applications subjected to constant and long term vibration, work=
hardening in service can be a real problem.=C2=A0 We saw this on copper bu=
s bars used in aircraft back in the radial engine days.=C2=A0 There was suf=
ficient vibration transmitted to every part of those aircraft to work harde=
n just about anything.=C2=A0 Occasionally one of the copper bus bars would =
crack and begin arcing.=C2=A0 I certainly hope that an RV would never exper=
ience that level of vibration, but it is going to see more than a stationar=
y application would.=C2=A0 These days most aircraft bus bars are supplied a=
nd used half hard.=C2=A0 But I do know guys working on warbirds sometimes a=
nneal them.=C2=A0 <br></div><div><br></div><div>Interestingly, MIL Spec for=
aircraft bus bars also required cadmium plating.=C2=A0 I have never used o=
ne of those, but obviously do NOT recommend trying to anneal one without fi=
rst mechanically removing the plating.=C2=A0 I suspect that would be some r=
ather nasty fumes.</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"lt=
r" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 9:58 PM Tom Coradeschi <<=
a href=3D"mailto:tjcora@icloud.com"; target=3D"_blank">tjcora@icloud.com</a>=
> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">It=
=E2=80=99s been decades since I=E2=80=99ve dealt with copper busbar, but ev=
en the half hard stuff you have (which presumably has been bent, so it=E2=
=80=99s work hardened slightly) is still pretty darn soft in absolute terms=
- esp when compared to ferrous materials.<br>
<br>
Annealing copper to the temperatures folks have noted will soften it. You c=
an cool it slowly or quickly, it really won=E2=80=99t make any difference (=
unless you=E2=80=99re impatient, in which case cooling it quickly is always=
better).<br>
<br>
Back to the OP=E2=80=99s note, I would suggest that what you really want in=
such a situation is the hardest material you can get your hands on. I=E2=
=80=99m sure that sounds counterintuitive, but follow my train of thought f=
or a bit. What=E2=80=99s I presume you=E2=80=99re looking to do - quite rig=
htly - is to minimize the electrical resistance across the bolted connectio=
n. <br>
<br>
The interesting thing about electrical connections like those, is that a la=
rge surface area is only of value if it=E2=80=99s properly mechanically pre=
loaded. Even machined surfaces, which appear flat (macroscopically), are mi=
croscopically rough and probably have an oxide layer on them to boot. Holm=
=E2=80=99s work on defining a-spots as the mechanism for electron flow thro=
ugh contacts has been expanded on by others in the field. Most of the math =
goes over my head these days, but generally speaking, surface prep and prel=
oad are key.<br>
<br>
Assuming that you=E2=80=99re using steel fasteners and washers, you=E2=80=
=99ve got a mechanical connection which is about twice as stiff as the cond=
uctors, so the number of fasteners is actually going to dominate the situat=
ion. In addition, if you back up the fasteners with steel (either plates or=
washers) to distribute the compressive load, you will be doing a lot to he=
lp yourself.=C2=A0 <br>
<br>
We used to, routinely, run megampere (pulsed) currents through bolted coppe=
r and aluminum busbar connections. Surface prep was important (particularly=
for aluminum, which forms an oxide layer in nanoseconds on exposure to oxy=
gen). In that regard, Electric Joint Compound (EJC) is critical for aluminu=
m, and quite helpful for copper connections. One lab was all aluminum busba=
r, and had literally hundreds of bolted connections (it was a fairly sophis=
ticated set of pulse forming modules). Much of this busbar had been through=
bending processes and we did nothing to it in terms of material properties=
. What we did do was pay careful attention to the cleaning, EJC application=
and bolt preload on assembly. We also measured the resistance across each =
connection and documented it - spot checking it was a semi-annual maintenan=
ce check.<br>
<br>
Not sure any of the above really adds any true value, but it was fun to pul=
l up some memories of my time as a Lab Rat, early in my career, so...<br>
<br>
=E2=80=94<br>
Tom Coradeschi<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:tjcora@icloud.com"; target=3D"_blank">tjcora@icloud.com</a=
><br>
<br>
<br>
> On 08 Aug 2020, at 10:21 AM, Pat Horne <<a href=3D"mailto:patintexa=
s@icloud.com" target=3D"_blank">patintexas@icloud.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> I thought quenching made the metal less soft.<br>
> <br>
> Annealing requires slow cooling. <br>
> <br>
> Peace,<br>
> Pat<br>
> <br>
> Pat Horne <br>
> We support Habitat for Humanity<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Bob Spidell <<a href=3D"mailto:bspidell=
@comcast.net" target=3D"_blank">bspidell@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> =EF=BB=BF Question for the List: Is it proper to quench--in water, pre=
sumably, or oil maybe--copper to achieve softness after it's been heate=
d 'cherry red?'<br>
> <br>
> Bob<br>
> <br>
> On 8/8/2020 6:43 AM, old dirtbeard wrote:<br>
>> I sort of like your idea about the self-cleaning oven cycle. It wo=
uld be very even heat, the right temperature, should not hurt the oven. <br=
>
>> <br>
>> Maybe just wait to do it while the wife is away for an hour or so.=
..=C2=A0 :-)<br>
>> <br>
>> best,<br>
>> <br>
>> doug<br>
>> <br>
>> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 5:37 AM Pat Horne <<a href=3D"mailto:pat=
intexas@icloud.com" target=3D"_blank">patintexas@icloud.com</a>> wrote:<=
br>
>> Pay a local shop with an oxy/acetylene rig to heat them? Muffler s=
hop, body shop, A/C contractor? A/C contractor sometimes use air/acetylene.=
Will that get hot enough?<br>
>> <br>
>> Peace,<br>
>> Pat<br>
>> <br>
>> Pat Horne <br>
>> We support Habitat for Humanity<br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> On Aug 7, 2020, at 11:25 PM, Jack Brooks <<a href=3D"mailto:JIB=
rooks@live.com" target=3D"_blank">JIBrooks@live.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> <br>
>> =EF=BB=BF<br>
>> I have fabricated a number of 1/8 and 3/16th inch thick busbars fo=
r an Van RV build electrical system which I am assembling in my shop.=C2=A0=
The busbars are already bent to shape, but I=E2=80=99d like to anneal them=
, because the copper was purchased in the=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CHalf-Hard=E2=80=9D=
state and making them =E2=80=9CDead-Soft=E2=80=9D will insure that they la=
y completely flat to maximize the conductivity when I final assemble the sy=
stem.<br>
>> <br>
>>=C2=A0 <br>
>> I usually anneal copper by getting it hot enough to glow with a pr=
opane torch and then allow it to cool.=C2=A0 With the mass of these busbars=
, I can=E2=80=99t get them up to a temperature to where they glow with prop=
ane.=C2=A0 An Oxy/Acetylene torch would work, but I don=E2=80=99t have one.=
=C2=A0 MAPP gas is hotter, but I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s a lot hot=
ter.<br>
>> <br>
>>=C2=A0 <br>
>> I am considering running them through the cleaning cycle in the se=
lf-cleaning over, as a self-cleaning oven will typically runs up to around =
900=C2=B0F.=C2=A0 Copper needs 700-1,200=C2=B0F to anneal, so it should be =
fine.<br>
>> <br>
>>=C2=A0 <br>
>> I=E2=80=99d prefer almost any other solution.=C2=A0 Thoughts?=C2=
=A0 The last time I used our oven for a shop project, it was to cure the pa=
int on the jugs (cylinders) of my =E2=80=9974 Norton motorcycle.=C2=A0 Mrs.=
Jack was not happy.=C2=A0 Copper bars should be fine as they won=E2=80=99t=
stink up the house.<br>
>> <br>
>>=C2=A0 <br>
>> Thanks in advance,<br>
>> <br>
>>=C2=A0 <br>
>> Jack<br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
> <br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> <br>
> <a href=3D"mailto:Shop-talk@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank">Shop-tal=
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</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr">=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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=3D<br>=3D can offend with substance --- Sam Brown=C2=A0 =3D<br>=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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