--===============2063877719858527732==
--000000000000922e9a05c95f4875
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For those who may still be following this thread the Buick lifters weigh 78
gm and the standard Austin Healey100 ones 122 gm.
Of course the additional weight of the longer pushrods must be added to the
Buick weight to get a true picture and that is 21 gm for the sets I have.
Obviously the reduction in reciprocating weight is around 23 gm.
For those interested I'm considering several options.
1. Having the cam and lifters reground and reground and re heat treated.
2. Using the Buick lifters and pushrods but installing slightly lower
load valve springs. My logic is that I have never run this engine up to
anything like valve bounce, in fact I've never heard valve bounce in a 1=
00
engine, so decreasing the seat pressure a little should not present a
problem.
3. Installing roller lifters and cam. Probably not going to fly because
of the prohibitive cost and not much information available on durability=
.
4. Very radical but having a set of silicon nitride capped lifters made.
I have done considerable research into this option and, although it is v=
ery
expensive and somewhat experimental, the results reported by those who h=
ave
been using such lifters are very good, actually phenomenal. ( I should
mention that some of the earlier silicone nitride capped lifters failed
with disastrous results).
Although option 4. will probably cost something around $1K my logic is that
this is the second time this failure has happened to me so with the cost
engine rebuilds today the $1K may be good insurance. I have a friend who
races a very competitive mini who has been using a set of silicon nitride
tipped lifters for several years and despite numerous engine failures has
never experienced a cam lobe or lifter failure.
I'm interested in anyone's constructive input.
M
On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 8:13 AM Perry Small via Healeys <
healeys@autox.team.net> wrote:
> I think the real difference between the bucket lifters and the stock unit=
s
> is the actual weight of the lifters.
>
> There may be some impact on lifter bore wear due to the side loads of the
> pushrods at a higher contact point on stock lifters compared to the bucke=
t
> type but is probably minimal. Was that vague enough?
> P
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 9, 2021, at 7:36 AM, Michael Oritt <michael.oritt@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>
> =EF=BB=BF
> Bob--
>
> I should have added that this incident coincided with a recent lowering b=
y
> DOT of lead and zinc contents and what might have been fine a year
> earlier was no longer sufficient to protect the new cam and lifters. I'l=
l
> certainly plead guilty to the sometimes-specious thinking that "more is
> better", but on the other hand "less" is sometimes not enough, and therei=
n
> lies the dilemma.
>
> Best--Michael Oritt
>
> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 11:00 PM Bob Spidell via Healeys <
> healeys@autox.team.net> wrote:
>
>> Subject to debate. The literature I've seen from the oil companies stres=
s
>> that their products are carefully formulated, and adding anything to the=
m
>> is not a good idea. Also, ZDDP was first used as a detergent, with its w=
ear
>> surface protection a surprising side-effect (like how tetra-ethyl lead w=
as
>> added to gas to increase octane rating, and its cushioning and protectin=
g
>> of valve seats was a side-effect). But, it's human nature to think "If a
>> little of this is good, a lot HAS to be better," but it's not necessaril=
y
>> true. ZDDP is corrosive in high concentrations; the 'sweet spot' appears=
to
>> be about 1,500PPM.
>>
>> Ordinarily, I'd attribute Michael's failed lifters (cam?) to improper
>> break-in, but I'm sure M used proper procedures, which makes this doubly
>> mysterious and concerning. I don't know how bucket lifters would change =
the
>> outcome; their main benefit seems to be reduced wear of the block.
>>
>>
>> On 8/8/2021 6:19 PM, i erbs via Healeys wrote:
>>
>> Good practice
>>
>> Ira Erbs
>> 1959 AH 100-6
>> 1967 MGB
>> Milwaukie, OR
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021, 6:09 PM Alan Seigrist <healey.nut@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> So adding zddp on top of whatever is in there is okay? I have Castrol
>>> 20W-50 in my motor... also use the Valvoline too.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Aug 7, 2021 at 11:11 PM Michael Oritt via Healeys <
>>> healeys@autox.team.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In about 2007 just before ZDDP content in motor oils became a commonly
>>>> talked-about issue in vintage racing communities, I bought a new race
>>>> engine for my MGA-powered Elva Courier from a reputable builder who
>>>> recommended I use Mobil 1. Somewhere during the first race weekend
>>>> performance fell off and upon disassembly it was determined that the c=
am
>>>> lobes had been damaged due to wear from the lifters.
>>>>
>>>> After replacing the cam and lifters I began using RP racing oil and
>>>> throwing in ZDDP additive for good measure. Though the Royal Purple
>>>> probably contained sufficient zddp on its own and some folks
>>>> cautioned against too high levels of zinc I have continued this
>>>> combination and have not lost a cam, etc. since.
>>>>
>>>> YMMV....
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 11:16 PM Michael Salter <michaelsalter@gmail.co=
m>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The first sign of problems was having to adjust the tappets which had
>>>>> initially been silent after 2000 miles and then again at 4500.
>>>>> After adjusting they were still audible and had previously been silen=
t.
>>>>> Then at the 2000 and 4000 mile oil changes there was "fir" in the
>>>>> drain plug magnet.
>>>>> I'm very disappointed to have destroyed a very low mileage "M" cam an=
d
>>>>> a set of NOS lifters that I had been saving for decades.
>>>>> I'm seriously considering having silicon nitride lifters manufactured
>>>>> but at over $1000 a set its a serious investment.
>>>>>
>>>>> M
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed., Aug. 4, 2021, 10:47 a.m. Steven Kingsbury, <
>>>>> airtightproductions@icloud.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I just rebuilt my 100 engine and purchased my lifters from AH Spares
>>>>>> in the UK. These were their new design for better oil flow. I now ha=
ve 1000
>>>>>> miles or so on the new engine and once I got my problems figured out=
with
>>>>>> my distributor, the car is running well and smooth.
>>>>>> Now I'm wondering when the other shoe is going to drop! What
>>>>>> problems did you have pointing you to the lifters as the source of t=
hose
>>>>>> problems? When I retorqued the head, I readjusted the rockers and fo=
und no
>>>>>> problems. They were a little off, but I expected a little.
>>>>>> What should I be looking for? I used Driven Break In oil and then
>>>>>> I switched to VR1 like you after 500 miles. I have been driving the =
car to
>>>>>> build up some trust in it and it's turning in to a joy to drive. I'v=
e got M
>>>>>> mods on this engine, cam, H6 carbs, M pistons and these new lifters.=
So
>>>>>> far, so good.
>>>>>> Thanks for your help,
>>>>>> Steven Kingsbury
>>>>>> BN1
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On August 3, 2021 at 5:19 PM, Michael Salter via Healeys <
>>>>>> healeys@autox.team.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> After only 6000 miles the NOS BMC lifters that I installed in my
>>>>>> engine with a very low mileage "M" cam have started to deteriorate.
>>>>>> This engine has had a steady diet of VR1 non synthetic and it has ha=
d
>>>>>> 4 changes in 6K miles.
>>>>>> Very disappointing.
>>>>>> I'm considering trying bucket type Buick lifters with longer push
>>>>>> rods and a new cam.
>>>>>> Does anyone have experience with the durability of the old Buick
>>>>>> lifters ... getting a little desperate here.
>>>>>> Fortunately I caught this issue before it ruined the engine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> M
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
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>>
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>>
>
> --
> Best--Michael
> _______________________________________________
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--000000000000922e9a05c95f4875
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small">For those who may still be following this thread =
the Buick lifters weigh 78 gm and the standard Austin Healey100 ones 122 gm=
. <br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-se=
rif;font-size:small">Of course the additional weight of the longer pushrods=
must be added to the Buick weight to get a true picture and that is 21 gm =
for the sets I have.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family=
:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small">Obviously the reduction in reciprocating=
weight is around 23 gm. <br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fo=
nt-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small">For those interested I'm co=
nsidering several options.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-=
family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small"><ol><li>Having the cam and lifters=
reground and reground and re heat treated.<br></li><li>Using the Buick lif=
ters and pushrods but installing slightly lower load valve springs. My logi=
c is that I have never run this engine up to anything like valve bounce, in=
fact I've never heard valve bounce in a 100 engine, so decreasing the =
seat pressure a little should not present a problem.</li><li>Installing rol=
ler lifters and cam. Probably not going to fly because of the prohibitive c=
ost and not much information available on durability.<br></li><li>Very radi=
cal but having a set of silicon nitride capped lifters made. I have done co=
nsiderable research into this option and, although it is very expensive and=
somewhat experimental, the results reported by those who have been using s=
uch lifters are very good, actually phenomenal. ( I should mention that som=
e of the earlier silicone nitride capped lifters failed with disastrous res=
ults).</li></ol><div>Although option 4. will probably cost something around=
$1K my logic is that this is the second time this failure has happened to =
me so with the cost engine rebuilds today the $1K may be good insurance. I =
have a friend who races a very competitive mini who has been using a set of=
silicon nitride tipped lifters for several years and despite numerous engi=
ne failures has never experienced a cam lobe or lifter failure.</div><div><=
br></div><div>I'm interested in anyone's constructive input.</div><=
div>M<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 8=
:13 AM Perry Small via Healeys <<a href=3D"mailto:healeys@autox.team.net=
">healeys@autox.team.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204=
,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">I think the real difference betwe=
en the bucket lifters and the stock units is the actual weight of the lifte=
rs.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>There may be some impact on lifter bore wear d=
ue to the side loads of the pushrods at a higher contact point on stock lif=
ters compared to the bucket type but is probably minimal. Was that vague en=
ough?=C2=A0</div><div>P<br><br><div dir=3D"ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On Aug 9, 2021, at 7:36 AM, Mi=
chael Oritt <<a href=3D"mailto:michael.oritt@gmail.com"; target=3D"_blank=
">michael.oritt@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockqu=
ote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"=
gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,255)">Bob--</div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_default" style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,255)"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_def=
ault" style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,255)">I should have added that this incident=
coincided with a recent lowering by DOT of lead and zinc contents and what=
might have been fine a year earlier=C2=A0was no longer=C2=A0sufficient to =
protect the new cam and lifters.=C2=A0 I'll certainly=C2=A0plead guilty=
to the sometimes-specious thinking that=C2=A0"more is better", b=
ut on the other hand "less" is sometimes not enough, and therein =
lies the dilemma.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(51,5=
1,255)"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,255=
)">Best--Michael Oritt</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=
=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 11:00 PM Bob Spidell v=
ia Healeys <<a href=3D"mailto:healeys@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank">=
healeys@autox.team.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex">
=20
=20
=20
<div>
Subject to debate. The literature I've seen from the oil companies
stress that their products are carefully formulated, and adding
anything to them is not a good idea. Also, ZDDP was first used as a
detergent, with its wear surface protection a surprising side-effect
(like how tetra-ethyl lead was added to gas to increase octane
rating, and its cushioning and protecting of valve seats was a
side-effect). But, it's human nature to think "If a little of =
this
is good, a lot HAS to be better," but it's not necessarily tru=
e.
ZDDP is corrosive in high concentrations; the 'sweet spot' appe=
ars
to be about 1,500PPM. <br>
<br>
Ordinarily, I'd attribute Michael's failed lifters (cam?) to
improper break-in, but I'm sure M used proper procedures, which
makes this doubly mysterious and concerning. I don't know how bucke=
t
lifters would change the outcome; their main benefit seems to be
reduced wear of the block.<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 8/8/2021 6:19 PM, i erbs via Healeys
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
=20
<div dir=3D"auto">Good practice<br>
<br>
<div>Ira Erbs<br>
1959 AH 100-6<br>
1967 MGB<br>
Milwaukie, OR</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Aug 8, 2021, 6:09 PM
Alan Seigrist <<a href=3D"mailto:healey.nut@gmail.com"; target=
=3D"_blank">healey.nut@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">So adding zddp on top of whatever is in there
is okay?=C2=A0 I have Castrol 20W-50 in my motor... also use th=
e
Valvoline too.</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Aug 7, 2021 at
11:11 PM Michael Oritt via Healeys <<a href=3D"mailto:heal=
eys@autox.team.net" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">healeys@autox.team=
.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,255)"=
>In
about 2007 just before ZDDP content in motor oils
became a commonly talked-about issue in vintage racing
communities, I bought a new race engine for my
MGA-powered Elva Courier from a reputable builder who
recommended=C2=A0I use Mobil 1.=C2=A0 Somewhere during th=
e first
race weekend performance fell off and upon disassembly
it was determined that the cam lobes had been damaged
due to wear from the lifters.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,255)"=
><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,255)"=
>After
replacing the cam and lifters I began=C2=A0using RP racin=
g
oil and throwing in ZDDP additive for good measure.=C2=A0
Though the Royal Purple probably contained sufficient
zddp on its own and some folks cautioned=C2=A0against too
high levels of zinc I have=C2=A0 continued this combinati=
on
and have not lost a cam, etc. since.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,255)"=
><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,255)"=
>YMMV....=C2=A0=C2=A0</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 a=
t
11:16 PM Michael Salter <<a href=3D"mailto:michaelsalt=
er@gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">michaelsalter@gmail.com<=
/a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"auto">The first sign of problems was having
to adjust the tappets which had initially been
silent after 2000 miles and then again at 4500.
<div dir=3D"auto">After adjusting they were still
audible and had previously been silent.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Then at the 2000 and 4000 mile oil
changes there was "fir" in the drain plug m=
agnet.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">I'm very disappointed to have
destroyed a very low mileage "M" cam and a =
set of
NOS lifters that I had been saving for decades.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">I'm seriously considering having
silicon nitride lifters manufactured but at over
$1000 a set its a serious investment.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">M</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed., Aug. 4,
2021, 10:47 a.m. Steven Kingsbury, <<a href=3D"mai=
lto:airtightproductions@icloud.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ai=
rtightproductions@icloud.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>I just rebuilt my 100 engine and purchased
my lifters from AH Spares in the UK. These
were their new design for better oil flow. I
now have 1000 miles or so on the new engine
and once I got my problems figured out with my
distributor, the car is running well and
smooth.</div>
<div>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Now I'm wondering when t=
he other shoe is
going to drop! What problems did you have
pointing you to the lifters as the source of
those problems? When I retorqued the head, I
readjusted the rockers and found no problems.
They were a little off, but I expected a
little.</div>
<div>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0What should I be looking for=
? I used
Driven Break In oil and then I switched to VR1
like you after 500 miles. I have been driving
the car to build up some trust in it and it's
turning in to a joy to drive. I've got M mods
on this engine, cam, H6 carbs, M pistons and
these new lifters. So far, so good.=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Thanks for your help,</div>
<div>Steven Kingsbury</div>
<div>BN1</div>
<div><br>
On August 3, 2021 at 5:19 PM, Michael Salter
via Healeys <<a href=3D"mailto:healeys@autox.t=
eam.net" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">healeys@autox.team=
.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"auto">After only 6000 miles the
NOS BMC lifters that I installed in my
engine with a very low mileage "M"=
; cam
have started to deteriorate.=C2=A0
<div dir=3D"auto">This engine has had a
steady diet of VR1 non synthetic and
it has had 4 changes in 6K miles.=C2=A0</=
div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Very disappointing.=C2=A0=
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">I'm=C2=A0 considering=
trying
bucket type Buick lifters with longer
push rods and a new cam.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Does anyone have
experience with the durability of the
old Buick lifters ... getting a little
desperate here.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Fortunately I caught
this issue before it ruined the
engine.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">M</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
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</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><font color=3D"#3333ff">Best--Michael</font></div>
<span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Suppo=
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