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Actually, it all comes down to whether or not you are at racing speed--
your racing speed. You are not required or expected to move off the
line if you are at speed. In fact it's a really bad idea. The
overtaking drivers expect you to hold to your line, and he is
responsible for managing the pass in a safe manner. What Steven was
talking about is being on the line when he was NOT at racing speed, in
other words, when he did not need to be there. And in any racing
organization--vintage, SCCA or F1, you are NOT supposed to be on the
line then.
Bedding your brakes and breaking your engine in on line is not safe
nor is it wise driving. People coming up behind you may not be able to
go where you point them. I wasn't there so I couldn't say, but I bet
that guy didn't go into the dirt because he wanted to.
On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:05 PM, Jim wrote:
> I understand the intent....
>
> When I went through my drivers school in a vintage race group, the
> understanding was that you "drove the line". If someone wanted to
> pass you, it was their RESPONSIBILITY to make a safe pass.
>
> Or is responsibility not a word to mention in this forum?
>
> One of the other racers shared an anecdote of "moving off line" to
> allow easier passing.. and having a racer come in after that session
> and give him a new oriface for violating the basic rule.
>
> When I was active in Vintage I was in a close cockpit car (Mini
> Cooper S) so giving hand signals was difficult. But my expectation
> was that if I was signalling right.. the overtaking car should use
> that information in order to make a safe pass.
>
> I guess it's something that needs to be discussed with each vintage
> group and a consensus formed before racers go on track. If the rule
> is "stay on the line" then one set of rule apply. If it's "if
> you're not at speed pick a different line" that also needs to be
> agreed before cars hit the track.
>
> It all comes down to communication.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jim
> Dallas
> too many toys, not enough $$$
>
> From: fot-bounces@autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net]
> On Behalf Of Bill Babcock
> Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 10:51 PM
> To: britbits@netzero.com
> Cc: 'FOT'
> Subject: Re: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving
>
> You may not like this answer, so here's your opportunity to delete
> before reading.
>
>
> I, and I'll bet many other people in the FOT, have been in the
> "douchebag's position before, when some guy traveling at a speed
> that did NOT NEED to be at the line, pointed me by while I was
> traveling at full chat--and pointed me into a place I did not want
> to go. So my question is, if you were traveling that slowly, why
> were you "pretty close to the line"? The line is where you need to
> be when you need to be there, in other words, when you are at speed
> and it's the only safe way through a corner. If you are driving to
> the line, you don't need to be there. If the line is the only place
> that the laws of physics permit your car to be, then you do.
>
> There's a reason why they say in any good driver's meeting "if you
> are not at racing speed, get off the line". Several years ago this
> guy who drove a car at what I considered 3/10s asked me why I always
> passed him so closely. I, and the entire race group, generally
> lapped him at least twice, sometimes three times. He was driving the
> line, precisely. Just where his driving instructor told him to
> drive. And he never deviated from the line. I considered him the
> most dangerous thing I would encounter in any day on the the track.
> I was thrilled when he quit "racing". In contrast, when you come up
> on a gaggle of FV's battling it out, they might be 20 MPH slower
> than you, but they need to be where they are. Nothing but respect
> for that, lift and wait.
>
> If you aren't at the limit, then you are blocking the only safe path
> through the course at speed. the guys who are coming up behind you
> can't tuck in behind and wait for you to finish a corner--they'd
> have to stand on their brakes to do that, and that's dangerous in
> any racing condition. As Burt Levy might say, the other driver was
> to blame, but you are responsible.
>
> We really DO call this racing. Vintage events are car shows with
> picnics. Vintage races are races. If you are not at racing speed you
> don't belong anywhere near the racing line.
>
>
> On Sep 25, 2008, at 6:04 PM, Jim wrote:
>
>> Steven,
>>
>> Unfortunately they use the "r" word when describing vintage
>> events... so
>> some of the "kids" who loved Pole Position or the different PC
>> games feel
>> they need to drive like a jerk to be a "racer". Or maybe they saw
>> "Days of
>> Thunder" once too often ;)
>>
>> Aside from keeping an eye on the mirrors, it's probably not a bad
>> idea to
>> install an in car camera. Next time.. grab an official and show
>> them the
>> video. It's kind of hard to argue against a video.
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Jim
>> Dallas
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: fot-bounces@autox.team.net [mailto:fot-
>> bounces@autox.team.net] On
>> Behalf Of Steven Belfer
>> Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 6:24 PM
>> To: FOT
>> Subject: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving
>>
>> Speaking of dangerous driving situations, two weekends ago I raced
>> at
>> Buttonwillow in my TR3. I had new brakes that needed bedding.
>> This meant I
>> needed to heat up my brakes in the first practice session, let them
>> cool so
>> I could have good braking power for the rest of the weekend. I was
>> in the
>> first group so at 8:30am, I told the proper official-type guys what
>> I needed
>> to do and started in the back. I'm also running a fresh engine and
>> feeling
>> that out as well. Anyway, after about 3 or 4 laps I'm just about
>> done
>> bedding the brakes and I'm about to get lapped. This is the first
>> "Warm-up"
>> session of the weekend. A red 2002 is approaching me and I waved
>> him to the
>> left and moved to the right a little bit, while staying pretty
>> close to the
>> line. Next thing I know the guy is passing me on the right ON THE
>> DIRT at
>> full speed. He re-entered the track, got a little squirrelly, threw
>> some
>> rocks onto my car and kept going. This guy was racing hard with a
>> yellow
>> P1800 and not letting up one bit. He didn't want to sacrifice his
>> lap time
>> when overtaking me. The level of aggression took me by surprise
>> and made me
>> angry. It was, after all the morning warm-up and I truly did my
>> best to get
>> my job done safely and get off
>> the race track. I tell my friends and family, when they ask if it's
>> dangerous, "You see, it's a gentlemen's sport and there's no prize
>> money."
>> I would say that most of the drivers are safe and respectful of their
>> machines and their abilities but all it takes is one douchebag move
>> and
>> you're in big trouble.
>>
>> ~SB
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>
>> http://www.fot-racing.com
>>
>> Fot mailing list
>> Fot@autox.team.net
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> Click here to find answers for Love, Problems, and what your Future
>> holds.
>>
>http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/fc/Ioyw6i4sufAJOayzbWQtj71HjwvM2L2ShWzEzSvnDvza8yJPMIlDpj/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>
>> http://www.fot-racing.com
>>
>> Fot mailing list
>> Fot@autox.team.net
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot
>>
>
> Bill Babcock
> Babcock & Jenkins
> Billb@bnj.com
> 503.936.7660
> www.bnj.com
>
> Editor
> Ke Nalu e-Magazine
> Paddlesurfing's Web Journal
>
> Bill@kenalu.com
> www.kenalu.com
> blog: www.ponohouse.com/ponoblog
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Reach your goals of being healthier and happier. Click here for diet
> tips and solutions.
Bill Babcock
Babcock & Jenkins
Billb@bnj.com
503.936.7660
www.bnj.com
Editor
Ke Nalu e-Magazine
Paddlesurfing's Web Journal
Bill@kenalu.com
www.kenalu.com
blog: www.ponohouse.com/ponoblog
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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Actually, it all comes down to =
whether or not you are at racing speed--your racing speed. You are not =
required or expected to move off the line if you are at speed. In fact =
it's a really bad idea. The overtaking drivers expect you to hold to =
your line, and he is responsible for managing the pass in a safe manner. =
What Steven was talking about is being on the line when he was NOT at =
racing speed, in other words, when he did not need to be there. And in =
any racing organization--vintage, SCCA or F1, you are NOT supposed to be =
on the line then. <div><br></div><div>Bedding your brakes and =
breaking your engine in on line is not safe nor is it wise driving. =
People coming up behind you may not be able to go where you point them. =
I wasn't there so I couldn't say, but I bet that guy didn't go into the =
dirt because he wanted to. </div><div><br><div><br><div><div>On Sep =
25, 2008, at 9:05 PM, Jim wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"> <div =
style=3D"WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space"> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">I understand the =
intent....</font></span></div> <div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><span =
class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" =
size=3D"2"></font></span> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">When I went through my drivers school in a =
vintage race group, the understanding was that you "drove the =
line". If someone wanted to pass you, it was their =
RESPONSIBILITY to make a safe pass.</font></span></div> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2"></font></span> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">Or is responsibility not a word to mention =
in this forum?</font></span></div> <div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><span =
class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" =
size=3D"2"></font></span> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">One of the other racers shared an anecdote =
of "moving off line" to allow easier passing.. and having a racer come =
in after that session and give him a new oriface for violating the basic =
rule.</font></span></div> <div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><span =
class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" =
size=3D"2"></font></span> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">When I was active in Vintage I was in a =
close cockpit car (Mini Cooper S) so giving hand signals was =
difficult. But my expectation was that if I was signalling =
right.. the overtaking car should use that information in order to make =
a safe pass.</font></span></div> <div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><span =
class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" =
size=3D"2"></font></span> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">I guess it's something that needs to be =
discussed with each vintage group and a consensus formed before racers =
go on track. If the rule is "stay on the line" then one set of =
rule apply. If it's "if you're not at speed pick a different =
line" that also needs to be agreed before cars hit the =
track.</font></span></div> <div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><span =
class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" =
size=3D"2"></font></span> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">It all comes down to =
communication.</font></span></div> <div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><span =
class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" =
size=3D"2"></font></span> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2"></font></span> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">Cheers,</font></span></div> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2"></font></span> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">Jim</font></span></div> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">Dallas</font></span></div> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">too many toys, not enough =
$$$</font></span></div><br> <div class=3D"OutlookMessageHeader" =
lang=3D"en-us" dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"> <hr tabindex=3D"-1"> <font =
face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><b>From:</b> fot-bounces@autox.team.net [<a =
href=3D"mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net";>mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.n=
et</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bill Babcock<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, =
September 25, 2008 10:51 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:britbits@netzero.com";>britbits@netzero.com</a><br><b>Cc:</b=
> 'FOT'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous =
driving<br></font><br></div> <div></div>You may not like this answer, so =
here's your opportunity to delete before reading. <div><br></div> =
<div><br></div> <div>I, and I'll bet many other people in the FOT, have =
been in the "douchebag's position before, when some guy traveling at a =
speed that did NOT NEED to be at the line, pointed me by while I was =
traveling at full chat--and pointed me into a place I did not want to =
go. So my question is, if you were traveling that slowly, why =
were you "pretty close to the line"? The line is where you need to be =
when you need to be there, in other words, when you are at speed and =
it's the only safe way through a corner. If you are <span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"TEXT-DECORATION: =
underline">driving</span> to the line, you don't need to be there. If =
the line is the only place that the laws of physics permit your car to =
be, then you do. </div> <div><br></div> <div>There's a reason why =
they say in any good driver's meeting "if you are not at racing speed, =
get off the line". Several years ago this guy who drove a car at what I =
considered 3/10s asked me why I always passed him so closely. I, and the =
entire race group, generally lapped him at least twice, sometimes three =
times. He was driving the line, precisely. Just where his driving =
instructor told him to drive. And he never deviated from the line. I =
considered him the most dangerous thing I would encounter in any day on =
the the track. I was thrilled when he quit "racing". In contrast, when =
you come up on a gaggle of FV's battling it out, they might be 20 MPH =
slower than you, but they need to be where they are. Nothing =
but respect for that, lift and wait. </div> =
<div><br></div> <div>If you aren't at the limit, then you are blocking =
the only safe path through the course at speed. the guys who are coming =
up behind you can't tuck in behind and wait for you to finish a =
corner--they'd have to stand on their brakes to do that, and that's =
dangerous in any racing condition. As Burt Levy might say, the other =
driver was to blame, but you are responsible. </div> =
<div><br></div> <div>We really DO call this racing. Vintage events are =
car shows with picnics. Vintage races are races. If you are not at =
racing speed you don't belong anywhere near the racing line. </div> =
<div><br></div> <div><br> <div> <div>On Sep 25, 2008, at 6:04 PM, Jim =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"> <blockquote =
type=3D"cite"> <div>Steven,<br><br>Unfortunately they use the "r" word =
when describing vintage events... so<br>some of the "kids" who loved =
Pole Position or the different PC games feel<br>they need to drive =
like a jerk to be a "racer". Or maybe they saw "Days =
of<br>Thunder" once too often ;)<br><br>Aside from keeping an eye on =
the mirrors, it's probably not a bad idea to<br>install an in car =
camera. Next time.. grab an official and show them the<br>video. =
It's kind of hard to argue against a =
video.<br><br><br>Cheers,<br><br>Jim<br>Dallas<br><br><br>-----Original =
Message-----<br>From: <a =
href=3D"mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net";>fot-bounces@autox.team.net</a> =
[<a =
href=3D"mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net";>mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.n=
et</a>] On<br>Behalf Of Steven Belfer<br>Sent: Thursday, September 25, =
2008 6:24 PM<br>To: FOT<br>Subject: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous =
driving<br><br>Speaking of dangerous driving situations, two =
weekends ago I raced at<br>Buttonwillow in my TR3. I had new =
brakes that needed bedding. This meant I<br>needed to heat up my =
brakes in the first practice session, let them cool so<br>I could have =
good braking power for the rest of the weekend. I was in =
the<br>first group so at 8:30am, I told the proper official-type guys =
what I needed<br>to do and started in the back. I'm also running =
a fresh engine and feeling<br>that out as well. Anyway, after =
about 3 or 4 laps I'm just about done<br>bedding the brakes and I'm =
about to get lapped. This is the first "Warm-up"<br>session of =
the weekend. A red 2002 is approaching me and I waved him to =
the<br>left and moved to the right a little bit, while staying pretty =
close to the<br>line. Next thing I know the guy is passing me on =
the right ON THE DIRT at<br>full speed. He re-entered the track, got a =
little squirrelly, threw some<br>rocks onto my car and kept going. =
This guy was racing hard with a yellow<br>P1800 and not letting =
up one bit. He didn't want to sacrifice his lap time<br>when =
overtaking me. The level of aggression took me by surprise and =
made me<br>angry. It was, after all the morning warm-up and I =
truly did my best to get<br>my job done safely and get off =
<br>the race track. I tell my friends and family, =
when they ask if it's <br>dangerous, "You see, it's a gentlemen's =
sport and there's no prize money."<br>I would say that most of the =
drivers are safe and respectful of their<br>machines and their =
abilities but all it takes is one douchebag move and<br>you're in big =
=
trouble.<br><br>~SB<br><br><br>___________________________________________=
____<br>Support Team.Net <a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html";>http://www.team.net/donate.html</=
a><br><br><a =
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t mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:Fot@autox.team.net";>Fot@autox.team.net</a><br>http://autox.=
team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot<br><br><br>_________________________________=
___________________________<br>Click here to find answers for Love, =
Problems, and what your Future =
holds.<br>http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/fc/Ioyw6i4sufAJOayzb=
WQtj71HjwvM2L2ShWzEzSvnDvza8yJPMIlDpj/<br>________________________________=
_______________<br>Support Team.Net =
http://www.team.net/donate.html<br><br>http://www.fot-racing.com<br><br>Fo=
t mailing =
list<br>Fot@autox.team.net<br>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot<b=
r><br></div></blockquote></div><br> <div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
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auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"> <div style=3D"WORD-WRAP: =
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after-white-space"> <div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 16px; COLOR: rgb(118,15,79)">Bill =
Babcock</span></div> <div> <div style=3D"WORD-WRAP: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space"> <div =
style=3D"WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space"> <div>Babcock & Jenkins</div> =
<div><a href=3D"mailto:Billb@bnj.com";>Billb@bnj.com</a></div> =
<div>503.936.7660</div> <div><a =
href=3D"http://www.bnj.com";>www.bnj.com</a></div> <div><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div> <div> <div><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#010000">Editor</font></div> =
<div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#010000">Ke Nalu =
e-Magazine</font></div> <div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
color=3D"#010000"><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" size=3D"3"><span =
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