Richard, Fred, Andy & Co.;
Even though I fully understand the desire to know how our cars score in a
VTR event, whether to learn from the scoresheet or just to scoff at the
judging, I think we should keep the score sheets away from the contestants.
We can ask all the "that's the way it came from the factory stuff" early
on during the event, and point out our cases with the judges when they are
working. As you know, anyone who really has studied their chosen variety
of Triumph usually knows more about that model than the judges we get at a
VTR Regional and most times at the National level. We learn more from the
other "original" cars than the judging process. VTR also provides a
contact in the magazine to quiz about each model. They have met those
needs. The point is, we don't need to have scoresheets to improve the car
to a concours winner.
Judging is a hassle, and we need and use volunteers. Getting raked over
the coals for trying to be fair, most of the time working as a non-expert
without all the required information, is not what they sign up for. I know
very few of us would do that type of "raking" in person, but we all have
seen this happen at some level, and we want to jump all over them when they
get it wrong. We
scoff at the mistakes that occur in judging, because we feel our cars are
perfect. They are an extention of us. Having "head judged" a regional
twice, I can tell you that each and every set of judges, and individual
judges evaluate at different critical levels. The extremes are amazing.
What one judge sees as showroom new another marks off as tatty. Until the
VTR can standardize judging (judging manuals) and train and certify for all
the different classes, a score on a judging form means nothing. It's a
means for picking a winner in a concours, based on a critical evaluation
done fairly across the board per class (each car in the class judged to the
same standard, just as harsh or easily). Best of Show candidates are
rejudged from the class winners by a select group of judges.
Having said all that, I think a two part "carbonless" form might work, with
the second page blacked out where the points get marked out, including the
total score.
One last thing, I don't know if it is enforced or not, but I think all the
judges are supposed to go through a class at the Nationals. Of all the
judges that I have seen that seem too critical or too lenient, none have
been through this class. Even though it's not the best situation, as long
as they are judging fairly across the board, it doesn't screw with the
results.
Just one mans opinion.
Bob Kramer, Austin TX
Hill Country Triumph Club
TR6x3, TR250 x3, TR3A vintage race
rgk@flash.net
----------
> From: fred thomas <vafred@erols.com>
> To: Richard Ceraldi-ERC004 <Richard_Ceraldi-ERC004@email.mot.com>
> Cc: vtr@autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: VTR Scores
> Date: Monday, August 18, 1997 7:14 PM
>
> Richard Ceraldi-ERC004 wrote:
> >
> > Andy and Co.,
> > Below you will see the finger pointing back to the VTR for the scores
for
> > the Nationals. What are the chances of getting these back out to the
members
> > wanting them? Have they been burned and the ashes spread in the English
> > Channel for fear of ears getting bitten off? If funds are a problem VTR
can
> > always capitalize on the situation and sell them at a large profit;-).
All
> > this secrecy can't be good for the organization or provide incentive to
play
> > this game. BTW this is just being sent to VTR list and not the Triumph
list
> > an an attempt to keep all the background clutter down..
> > Regards,
> > Richard Ceraldi
> > Austin, TX
> > ******************************************************
> >
> > Richard Ceraldi-ERC004 wrote:
> > >
> > > So who is George Rabey?
> >
> > Hi again!
> > George is the VTR chief judge -- he had jurisdiction over the entire
> > Concours, where Duncan Wood was the chief judge from our club.
> > George's contact info is on the inside front cover of The Vintage
> > Triumph, which unfortunately I have at home, not here at work.
> >
> > Hope this helps!
> > Keep Triumphing,
> > Susan %)
> > ******************************************************
> > Richard Ceraldi-ERC004 wrote:
> > >
> > > Susan,
> > > So what's the address to send our envelope to?
> > > Richard
> >
> > Hi Richard!
> >
> > It was merely a suggestion for next time -- George Rabey has the
judging
> > forms and we don't have access to them. Sorry!
> >
> > Keep Triumphing,
> > Susan %)
> > ******************************************************
> > To: triumphs@autox.team.net@INTERNET
> >
> > (Hi all! Jim's server isn't letting him send mail out, so I am posting
> > this for him -- Susan)
> > Larry,
> >
> > When we were setting up the 1997 VTR National, our committee head on
> > Judging agreed that the judging sheets should be shared with the
competitors,
> > BUT NOT AT THE SHOW! Evidently there has been trouble at past shows
with
> > competitors becoming quite upset at the results and making life
miserable
> > for the judging staff.
> >
> > His suggestion is that at the show interested individuals could supply
a
> > self addressed stamped envelope, and results would be sent a month
after the
> > show. That way emotion won't cloud objective evaluation of the sheets,
and
> > the competitor can be ready for next year's show.
> >
> > I don't know if the VTR would agree to this suggestion, but it'd be
> > something for Minnesota to consider for next year.
> >
> > Jim Gambony
> > Mad Man in McKinney
> >
> > ----------
> > From: triumphs-owner
> > To: JGAMBO01
> > Subject: results of judges at car show
> > Date: Friday, August 15, 1997 12:04AM
> >
> > Dear group I feel we are missing a very important function of our car
> > shows. We go not get our car point brake down from the judges.
> > I understand in 1988 or what year there was a fist fight so vtr will
> > not give our RECORD out with the fear of trouble. My Point is this
> > is childish and by other means it is a breach
> > of-------------------------. let you lawyers fill in the blanks.
> > My suggestion to take of the above mail then.(if a stamp is a problem,
> > i am sure this could be cured.
> > What does the list think?
> > Larrf
> >
> > Thanks
> > Larry Scharff
> > Friendswood Tx.
> > 1967 TR4A
>
>
> Listers, if you think MIKE TYSON was a bad sport just try to imagine what
> would happen with 200 T/R owners who already know their car is the best
> of show and then give him the judges sheet to prove how bad his car looks
> to a judge. There are a lot of owners out there who would not take it
> very kindly if they were to see the score sheets that day. If you don't
> beleive this go over to a owner and just start picking his car apart and
> just think of this X 200. Mail the score sheets at a later date and save
> all the hassle. Don'T forget how many trailer queens there are out there
>
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