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Why are they spinning?=C2=A0 It seems to me that they are trapped between =
the mainshaft and the synchro hub with has splines which engage the splines=
on the mainshaft.=C2=A0 Is the synchronizer engaging them in some way?=C2=
=A0 I guess I'm not seeing something looking at the pictures.
I'm afraid I can be of no more help.=C2=A0 I've reached the limit of my exp=
erience.=C2=A0 Good luck
=20
Dave=20
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: aribert neumann <aribertn@gmail.com>
To: triumphs@autox.team.net
Sent: Mon, Mar 20, 2023 8:45 pm
Subject: Re: [TR] Triumphs Digest, Vol 16, Issue 39
Dave:=C2=A0 =C2=A0Thank you for your thoughtfull reply!=C2=A0 =C2=A0The gro=
ove in the main shaft that locates the split collars is not as bad as it lo=
oks - most of the taper turns out to be material worn off of the split coll=
ars and welded onto the main shaft.=C2=A0 I have cleaned up the groove, to =
the same dimesion as the groove on the new main shaft I bought (that has th=
e oversize issues) and that took out all the taper.=C2=A0=20
=C2=A0
The concern I still have is=C2=A0how to prevent the split collars from spin=
ning in the future=C2=A0to prevent this from happening again - either on th=
e old shaft or on a new shaft.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The split collars are not bearin=
gs or bushings and if they keep spinning in the future I'll see the same pr=
oblem.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
From:=C2=A0DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey@cs.com>
To:=C2=A0"aribertn@gmail.com" <aribertn@gmail.com>, "triumphs@autox.team.ne=
t" <triumphs@autox.team.net>
Cc:=C2=A0
Bcc:=C2=A0
Date:=C2=A0Mon, 20 Mar 2023 12:39:48 +0000 (UTC)
Subject:=C2=A0Re: [TR] Calling anyone with transmission rebuilding experien=
ce - second attempt, part 1
It has been many years (< 25, I think) but I once rebuilt a TR6 transmissi=
on with a used mainshaft that had similar wear on a shoulder like that.=C2=
=A0 There was a thrust washer that fitted up against shoulder.=C2=A0 A few =
years later I was rebuilding it again.=C2=A0 The thrust washer had broken i=
nto parts.=C2=A0 My solution was to buy a new mainshaft (that is a story in=
itself) along with some other parts.=C2=A0 25 years later that part is sti=
ll soldering on.=C2=A0 (I had to rebuild again for layshaft issues but that=
's unrelated)
I would be very reluctant to reuse that mainshaft.=C2=A0 The raised ridge i=
s not what worries me it is the fact that the edge of the grove is not squa=
re and the thrust applied by the helical gears will point load the split co=
llars and they will fail again.=C2=A0 The TR6 transmission si probably diff=
erent but the basic design is similar and the force loading is also similar=
.=C2=A0 Helical gears are sued to keep tooth noise down but the fact that t=
hey are wound in a helical manner around the axis means the forces applied =
to the gears is at an angle to that axis.=C2=A0 Part of that force is used =
to rotate the shaft but the other is applied to the bearings at either end =
of the transmission meaning the split collars in your case will take up tha=
t force as an interface between the shaft and the bearing inner race.=C2=A0=
I don't have enough experience to say whether the transmission will last a=
week, month, year or 10 years with that shaft but I would have much more c=
onfidence in a new, quality shaft.
=20
Dave=20
=20
=20
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:=C2=A0DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey@cs.com>
To:=C2=A0"aribertn@gmail.com" <aribertn@gmail.com>, "triumphs@autox.team.ne=
t" <triumphs@autox.team.net>
Cc:=C2=A0
Bcc:=C2=A0
Date:=C2=A0Mon, 20 Mar 2023 13:30:54 +0000 (UTC)
Subject:=C2=A0Re: [TR] Calling anyone with transmission rebuilding experien=
ce - 2nd attempt, part2
That looks like the heat treated, hardened=C2=A0 surface is starting to br=
eak up.=C2=A0 That is what happened to my layshaft.=C2=A0 Another reason to=
abandon that mainshaft.=C2=A0 If you have an alternate bearing combination=
that doesn't relay on that surface for the bearing rollers then the harden=
ed surface is no longer critical.=C2=A0 But this is above my pay grade.
BTW, I misinterpreted one of your previous photos.=C2=A0 The split washers =
transfer the lateral forces from the synchro hub to the mainshaft but the e=
nd result is the same, with a compromised groove surface like that the spli=
t collars will fail prematurely.=C2=A0=C2=A0 If you open the grove to clean=
up the shoulder will the split washers stay in place?=C2=A0 If they fall o=
ut you have serious problems.=C2=A0 Even if they stay in place will it incr=
ease backlash?=C2=A0 Can you get oversized split collars?=C2=A0 Make shims?=
=C2=A0 All this is above my pay grade.
=20
Dave=20
=20
=20
** triumphs@autox.team.net **
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs=C2=A0 http://www.team.net/a=
rchive
sey@cs.com
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<div style=3D"color:black;font: 12pt Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
<div> <font size=3D"3">Why are they spinning? It seems to me that the=
y are trapped between the mainshaft and the synchro hub with has splines wh=
ich engage the splines on the mainshaft. Is the synchronizer engaging=
them in some way? I guess I'm not seeing something looking at the pi=
ctures.</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"3"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"3">I'm afraid I can be of no more help. I've reach=
ed the limit of my experience. Good luck<br>
</font></div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div style=3D"clear:both">
<div style=3D"color:black;font:12pt Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
<div style=3D"color:black;font:12pt Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
<div><font size=3D"4">Dave <br>
</font></div>
<div><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;"><=
br>
</span></div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black"><font=
size=3D"2">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: aribert neumann <aribertn@gmail.com><br>
To: triumphs@autox.team.net<br>
Sent: Mon, Mar 20, 2023 8:45 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [TR] Triumphs Digest, Vol 16, Issue 39<br>
<br>
<div id=3D"yiv7323096329">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"yiv7323096329gmail_quote"><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;" class=
=3D"yiv7323096329gmail_quote">Dave: Thank you for your thoughtf=
ull reply! The groove in the main shaft that locates the split =
collars is not as bad as it looks - most of the taper turns out to be mater=
ial worn off of the split collars and welded onto the main shaft. I h=
ave cleaned up the groove, to the same dimesion as the groove on the new ma=
in shaft I bought (that has the oversize issues) and that took out all the =
taper. </blockquote>
<div> <br>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex;" class=3D"yiv7323096329gmail_quote">The concern=
I still have is <b>how to prevent the split collars from spinning in =
the future</b> to prevent this from happening again - either on the ol=
d shaft or on a new shaft. The split collars are not bearings o=
r bushings and if they keep spinning in the future I'll see the same proble=
m.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: DAVID MASSEY <<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" ymailto=
=3D"mailto:dave1massey@cs.com"; target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:dave1massey=
@cs.com">dave1massey@cs.com</a>><br>
To: "<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" ymailto=3D"mailto:aribert=
n@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:aribertn@gmail.com";>aribertn@=
gmail.com</a>" <<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" ymailto=3D"mailt=
o:aribertn@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:aribertn@gmail.com";>=
aribertn@gmail.com</a>>, "<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" ymailt=
o=3D"mailto:triumphs@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:trium=
phs@autox.team.net">triumphs@autox.team.net</a>" <<a rel=3D"nofollow noo=
pener noreferrer" ymailto=3D"mailto:triumphs@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_bla=
nk" href=3D"mailto:triumphs@autox.team.net";>triumphs@autox.team.net</a>>=
<br>
Cc: <br>
Bcc: <br>
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2023 12:39:48 +0000 (UTC)<br>
Subject: Re: [TR] Calling anyone with transmission rebuilding experien=
ce - second attempt, part 1<br>
<div style=3D"color:black;font:12pt Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
<div> <font size=3D"3">It has been many years (< 25, I think) but I once=
rebuilt a TR6 transmission with a used mainshaft that had similar wear on =
a shoulder like that. There was a thrust washer that fitted up agains=
t shoulder. A few years later I was rebuilding it again. The th=
rust washer had broken into parts. My solution was to buy a new mains=
haft (that is a story in itself) along with some other parts. 25 year=
s later that part is still soldering on. (I had to rebuild again for =
layshaft issues but that's unrelated)</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"3"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"3">I would be very reluctant to reuse that mainshaft.&nb=
sp; The raised ridge is not what worries me it is the fact that the edge of=
the grove is not square and the thrust applied by the helical gears will p=
oint load the split collars and they will fail again. The TR6 transmi=
ssion si probably different but the basic design is similar and the force l=
oading is also similar. Helical gears are sued to keep tooth noise do=
wn but the fact that they are wound in a helical manner around the axis mea=
ns the forces applied to the gears is at an angle to that axis. Part =
of that force is used to rotate the shaft but the other is applied to the b=
earings at either end of the transmission meaning the split collars in your=
case will take up that force as an interface between the shaft and the bea=
ring inner race. I don't have enough experience to say whether the tr=
ansmission will last a week, month, year or 10 years with that shaft but I =
would have much more confidence in a new, quality shaft.<br>
</font></div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div style=3D"clear:both;">
<div style=3D"color:black;font:12pt Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
<div style=3D"color:black;font:12pt Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
<div><font size=3D"4">Dave <br>
</font></div>
<div><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;"><br=
>
</span></div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial, helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black;"><fo=
nt size=3D"2">
<div id=3D"yiv7323096329m_6593041711186351867yiv0386429821">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div><br>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</font></div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: DAVID MASSEY <<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" ymailto=
=3D"mailto:dave1massey@cs.com"; target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:dave1massey=
@cs.com">dave1massey@cs.com</a>><br>
To: "<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" ymailto=3D"mailto:aribert=
n@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:aribertn@gmail.com";>aribertn@=
gmail.com</a>" <<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" ymailto=3D"mailt=
o:aribertn@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:aribertn@gmail.com";>=
aribertn@gmail.com</a>>, "<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" ymailt=
o=3D"mailto:triumphs@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:trium=
phs@autox.team.net">triumphs@autox.team.net</a>" <<a rel=3D"nofollow noo=
pener noreferrer" ymailto=3D"mailto:triumphs@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_bla=
nk" href=3D"mailto:triumphs@autox.team.net";>triumphs@autox.team.net</a>>=
<br>
Cc: <br>
Bcc: <br>
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2023 13:30:54 +0000 (UTC)<br>
Subject: Re: [TR] Calling anyone with transmission rebuilding experien=
ce - 2nd attempt, part2<br>
<div style=3D"color:black;font:12pt Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
<div> <font size=3D"3">That looks like the heat treated, hardened sur=
face is starting to break up. That is what happened to my layshaft.&n=
bsp; Another reason to abandon that mainshaft. If you have an alterna=
te bearing combination that doesn't relay on that surface for the bearing r=
ollers then the hardened surface is no longer critical. But this is a=
bove my pay grade.<br>
</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"3"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"3">BTW, I misinterpreted one of your previous photos.&nb=
sp; The split washers transfer the lateral forces from the synchro hub to t=
he mainshaft but the end result is the same, with a compromised groove surf=
ace like that the split collars will fail prematurely. If you o=
pen the grove to clean up the shoulder will the split washers stay in place=
? If they fall out you have serious problems. Even if they stay=
in place will it increase backlash? Can you get oversized split coll=
ars? Make shims? All this is above my pay grade.<br>
</font></div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div style=3D"clear:both;">
<div style=3D"color:black;font:12pt Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
<div style=3D"color:black;font:12pt Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
<div><font size=3D"4">Dave <br>
</font></div>
<div><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;"><br=
>
</span></div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial, helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black;"><fo=
nt size=3D"2">
<div id=3D"yiv7323096329m_6593041711186351867yiv7397812571">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</font></div>
</div>
<br>
</blockquote></div>
</div>
</div>
** <a ymailto=3D"mailto:triumphs@autox.team.net"; href=3D"mailto:triumphs@au=
tox.team.net">triumphs@autox.team.net</a> **<br>
<br>
//www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
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eam.net/archive" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/archive</a><br>
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hs/dave1massey@cs.com" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/mailman/opti=
ons/triumphs/dave1massey@cs.com</a><br>
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