It sounds so cool when you call the group "Tigers", just like Scouts or
Cadets. I have to get back to my remedial English class so that I can
communicate as well as you someday. Would you please finish my side of the
story, you write so good. I don't understand the suggestive stuff so good
though, you always tell me it's all twisted around when I respond and it comes
out offensive or defensive. Just like the day Sean Ford called me and told me
to kiss something of his and then called me a D-head (I don't like those swear
words). Say hi to everyone for me, except for Sean Ford (he's mean) and Norman
(he writes bad things about me).
Owner (you love it)
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Laifman
To: Central Valley Classics
Cc: tigers@autox.team.net ; rootes1@earthlink.net
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 10:03 AM
Subject: Central Valley Classics Responds!
Tigers, and Mr. "Owner" of Central Valley Classics, anonymous,
Below is the message received from Central Valley Classics, without the
identification of the person sending the message. This is in response to my
message he quoted.
As any dispassionate reading of my original message will reveal, a simple
question was raised on knowledge of authenticity, and no charge was made of
"slander", or "misrepresentation".
His reply is defensive, and offensive. He attacks the owner's of original
classics from questioning authenticity. He attacks Norman for trying to keep
things sorted out. He makes intimations of threats that are ludicrous, and he
has removed the picture (subsequent postings) from his site.
Regardless of his defense that he is only a poster of other peoples ads, the
information is not ascribed to anyone but his own posting. Even then, as a
merchant wanting to maintain the interests of all he promotes and represents,
he ought to take to heart any question that the offering may be
misrepresenting the merchandise, and is not in accordance with Motor Vehicle
Identification law.
In spite of his poor communication, and implied threats, the tone of the
note and his subsequent actions imply concern.
Good. He should be concerned. Being a "broker", as he implies, instead of
an owner, does not relieve him of the need to act responsibly. This is
especially true if significant concerns have been surfaced. A polite reply,
rather than a lot of flailing and hollow threats, would have been more
appropriate. Some concern for his own reputation does not seem to be of
concern to him, although a reading of his response tells much.
I have no idea what his problem is with bashing Norman, Sean, Larry,
Jensen, Rootes, or the many other inquiries he received. It seems overly
hostile and defensive when simple questions have been asked concerning his
knowledge of the authenticity of his representations. A lot of flailing, name
calling, and un-businesslike conduct on his part, in my opinion.
These are my views of his response, and do not necessarily represent those
of anyone else. On the other hand, there may be many who see this the same
way I do. If there are those who want to overspend on an imitation car, fine.
That is their privilege. But, it should be a knowledgeable decision, not one
based on misinformation and misdirection.
Thanks to those on the list who have asked, with sincerity, whether his
offering for sale (directly on his web site, and perhaps on behalf of and
un-named client) is legitimate, legal, and as represented.
All fair questions to which any legitimate businessman would be glad to
respond.
Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Central Valley Classics wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Laifman" <SLaifman@SoCal.rr.com>
To: <admin@centralvalleyclassics.com>
Cc: "Norman C. Miller" <rootes1@earthlink.net>; "Tiger's Den"
<tigers@autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 12:58 PM
Subject: This Car "1965 Sunbeam Tiger"
Central Valley Classics Owner
3180 South Parkway Drive
Fresno, CA 93725
(888)-285-7355
http://www.centralvalleyclassics.com/cars/Sunbeam/65Tiger/65tiger.html
As the Editor of the top rated Sunbeam Tiger Web Site, and member of the
top Sunbeam Tiger enthusiasts club, I have a distinct interest in
assuring the value and authenticity of cars represented as being "Tigers".
Many misguided folk have violated California DMV laws by offering
automobiles for sale that are misidentified. If this is a knowledgeable
offering of a fraudulent vehicle then it is a felony, grand theft, and
the DMV is mightily interested in such VIN fraud. Reference "California
Vehicle Code 4463, False Evidences and Uses of Documents, Licenses,
Placards, or Plates, - - "
As a dealer, I am sure you are aware of the significant penalties.
I am not claiming that the "Sunbeam Tiger" you are offering is a fraud,
but it has so been reported by knowledgeable sources that have seen the
vehicle, and it's "tell-tale" signs of being a forgery conversion from a
much less costly Sunbeam Alpine, worth less than 1/10 the value asked
for an authentic item.
I recommend you validate the authenticity of a possible forgery by
contacting the many experts available.
I can recommend Mr. Norman Miller, (rootes1@earthlink.net) author of the
"bible" of Sunbeam Tiger history and authenticity. In the past, Mr.
Miller, a recognized authority, has lent assistance in identifying
forgeries. I suggest you contact him for his opinion of your offering.
This message is going to Mr. Miller, to make him aware of the situation,
as well as to over 500 members of a North American based Sunbeam Tiger
group, and thousands of Tiger enthusiasts worldwide that are the core
visitors to our TigersUnited.com web site, as well as clubs and
organizations around the US and Canada
I hope you take advantage of the resources available to you to assure
you are not committing fraud, knowingly, or through misinformation.
The DMV Fresno Investigations Office, (559) 488-4096, will be advised by
local residents of this offering, to assure their oversight.
Sincerely wishing you good fortune in honest dealings, and that your
offering is legitimate.
Steve Laifman
--
-----
Steve Laifman
Editor
http://www.TigersUnited.com
Steve,
As the editor of a "Top Rated" Alpine website, you should not get any of
your facts from Sean Ford. We are not a "dealer", henceforth we are not
misguided and we only advertise vehicles for their respective owners. You
might want to lump us in the same category as the classifieds in the
newspaper or Auto Trader, after all we are just a marketing company. The
owners fill out an information sheet on the car, sign it to the accuracy and
we post their information. We have legal disclaimers on our website to let
you know the content is only for informational purposes and we do not verify
information. Of course as any marketing company we charge for listing the
vehicle. Now a "Dealer" owns the vehicle they are selling and are solely
responsible for their content, actually goes along with the truth in
advertising laws. And lastly we are not a broker as we do not charge
commissions to sell vehicles. I see the DMV inspectors from time to time and
have nothing to hide from them, they already know what we do. I wonder if
all Tiger transactions have disclosed the full selling prices to all Motor
Vehicle departments for tax purposes? I worked in and have managed different
departments in automobile dealerships and probably as or more aware of those
laws than you seem to be.
Now I asked an associate (an assistant DA) on the next subject that I want
to touch on "slander". I have seen and reproduced documentation that
specifically calls that offense into play, litigation under the civil code
of the law is an option to me. I have seen and he agreed with me about some
harassment and what could be considered a threat to blackmail my self into
following along with certain peoples wishes if I don't comply, punishable
under the criminal code of the law. I really don't want to get involved with
complicated and expensive (specifically for the perpetrators) civil or
criminal suit, but for the sake of stopping the harassment and other
offenses, I will get my attorney involved.
I only ask that anyone that wants to find out the authenticity of any
vehicle to get a third party to verify it. Prior to seeing any verification
in writing and by an unbiased third party, I would believe the owner of the
car that signed his or her name to our information sheet. What is up with
Normy's verified cars that don't have any VIN numbers??? I guess those
"salvage" title cars count??? I know that without a VIN tag and/or fender
tag/build sheet that Galen Govier wouldn't touch a Mopar with a ten foot
pole to verify it. I know that my friend's Yenko Camaro wouldn't have even
been looked at with out the VIN. And I know that the information that I read
on Norman's website leaves a lot of verification up to his opinion, he
wasn't there to see these built and surely he didn't build any. I remember
reading in one description that the car had signs of the way they looked to
be built by the Jensen people. I think that Norman C Miller has a vested
interest in making sure this car stays on his little "Alger" list as he has
already dubbed the car as a fake and any change would hurt his reputation as
the "Expert". I am also sick of the little "crybaby" Sean Ford whining in my
ear and around town. I really think that Freud would agree... this sounds
like a jealousy thing... this one is nicer than yours.
I have been dealing with classic cars for more than 25 years, my knowledge
spans more than one manufacturer and model. I have seen a few of the
"Experts" proven wrong and probably haven't seen the last one. I do not
claim to be an expert on the Alpine Tiger, nor do I specifically want to be
associated with the type of people that have contacted me regarding this
car. I am well educated on classics and can spot many fakes and some fake
"Experts". I have read many articles that make reference to all Tigers being
"worked over" Alpines from the Jensen factory and for the $10K Carol Shelby
was paid... it's conceivably true. Actually I don't care, the car is what it
is. Preserve all you want, the market demands cars that are not authentic...
the majority of the people don't care. I am looking into having a Cuda coupe
made into a convertible as I personally do not want to pay what they want
for a real Cuda convertible and there is a company out there that
specializes in just that conversion, another one does Camaro's. Ask yourself
why there are more 57 Chevy Bel Air convertible today than were built and
these cars are fetching in the $50K+ range, people are lined up to buy them.
I am very disappointed that there are a group of people that act childish
and then send their phony little child emails, GROW UP! If you have a
problem complain to the DMV, hire a lawyer but stop bothering and slandering
me and my business. Please, as an ex rocket scientist, I would hope you are
smarter than that. I think you need to tell your friend from Con Tech, Larry
Paulick to stop playing with the finance page (IP addresses don't lie). How
about we publish all of this in a national magazine, with your names and
professions also and see if it matters to the majority of the people in this
country if there are "real or fake" Tigers in the world. Only your group
really cares and I think that bothers you, the average person that shows up
at one of your shows doesn't know a real from a fake, can't count those 500
or so club members though. You don't want to admit that someone might just
buy this car because its a well done restoration and they might want it
because it looks cool and goes fast, biggest motivation for the majority
buyer (ego). every one that comes in our showroom and inquires about the
car, I tell them about the controversy ( I will have more names to discuss
and more laughs with my customers) and a most have said "so what, it looks
fast".
I hope you take advantage of the recommendation presented to you and your
associates to assure you are not committing any civil or criminal
violations, knowingly, or through any misguided actions of others. I guess
that you could be held liable for someone else's actions as a result of your
actions to seek what you refer to as the "truth", you admittedly sent out
the call to arms in your email to me. Sincerely wishing you good fortune in
honest dealings, and that your publication is only full of fully verified
facts, big brother is watching.
Regards,
Owner
Central Valley Classics
--
-----
Steve Laifman
Editor
http://www.TigersUnited.com
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