>> Joe, you seem to think that Laura over-reacted to the comments you made, and
>> that her reaction was unjustified and over the top. Possibly so, from your
>> point of view. However, some people are more sensitive than others. If you
>> do not know someone well, you should assume they are sensitive, and avoid
>> making un-necessarily provocative comments, until you know them better and
>> know that they can take it - that is common good manners. Maybe you feel
>that
>> you know Laura well enough through the list that you can make these
>comments -
>> if so, you have mis-judged her, as we all have seen (before this occasion)
>> that her feelings can be hurt.
One of the things that hurt me was the insinuation that people on this list
were two faced and not really my 'friends'. Why should I want to stay where
people are like that? (That's what I felt at the moment.)
THe outpouring I received was incredible-almost overwhelming!
>Not only did she over-react, but she took a previously private conversation to
>the list in an order to personally hurt me
I took it public because (A)I wanted to say good-bye and explain why I was
leaving. And (B) I felt that for Joe to be saying things about the listers
behind THEIR collective back to me wasn't nice-I just don't do this behind the
back thing. I thought it was low of Joe to say that the Listers who've seen my
car (and people not on the list who've seen it and driven it)-his comment was
"what do they know". To belittle these people behind their backs isn't the
action of a 'friend'.
and although
>didn't specifically mention my name, made it perfectly clear who she was
>referring to. (She cleverly mentioned "currying favor" twice
>in the message... very clever indeed).
You'll never believe it, I was using my normal vocabulary and didn't give it a
thought!
My personal exchange with her was in an effort to make her realize that few
list members
>actually buy that load of crap that she is peddling
Actually, it was expressed to me that it was more than a few!
And I'm not peddling anything!
>and that people were snickering behind her back every time she brings it up.
>The
>only way she could ever hope to quell this snickering is to either prove it
>(which she has indicated she will not do) or stop it all
>together.
And I said? That the people who've seen Nigel from this list and off this
list... and Joe said? "What do they know"
But, we've been here.
>No guy on any of these lists could ever expect to get away with such
>unsubstantiated claims and She will not either. Time for another
>cliché. "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."
I do not wish to do autocross. Don't care for it. Don't care to race my car
either as I know that I don't have the skills to drive much over 100mph.
I also expressed that I only have the one car. And I do mean-the ONE car! Yes,
autocross is safe, but cars have been known to break during the course of it.
Until I have more income and a second car, I cannot take the risk.
I detect a level of
>> male chauvinism in your assumption that, because Laura owns, drives, and
>> enjoys her Spitfire, that that should make her 'one of the guys', and
>> therefore able to take the level of verbal brawling that a bunch of guys
>> sometimes indulge in away from female company. Why should a sensitive woman
>> not be allowed to enjoy a Spitfire, and share her enthusiasm with us,
>without
>> having to suppress her femininity and her own character - or indeed a
>> sensitive man, not all of us have elephant hide for skins?
>As for Male Chauvinism, it doesn't apply here. In fact, if anything, it is
>poor Laura who wants a double standard. SHe wants to throw
>out all sorts of unsubstantiated claims without being required to "put up or
>shut up". The unstated rule that applies to male bravado
>says that if you say it you must be able to prove it. Laura does not want to
>be bound by any such trivial rule.
I don't recall reading these rules in the Constitution! I haven't even seen it
carried to such a degree in automotive circles-in which I've been since I was
about 12 years old! (I explained that my step-father was an automotive
engineer-he moonlighted on the weekends giving tech advice at the races. We
spent so many hours in the garages-and I don't mean the structures attached to
private homes-of his friends.)
Yes, I've seen some of the 'put up or shut up' mentality-but usually it was
high school boys-and never with as much (and here a word escapes me...) malice?
Meaness? As I have here from Joe.
And as I've explained-I only HAVE ONE CAR! (And very little money!)
>> As an aside, I never, detected any excessive bravado or bragging from Laura,
>> beyond obvious enthusiasm for her car. As she may not be one of the most
>> technical amongst us, I would not expect her to have to prove herself, or
>> Nigel, with more technical details of him than she already has.
THank you.
If you have
>> been suggesting that she must race her car, which she does not want to do,
>in
>> order to prove herself or her car, then I am afraid that is something you
>> should have grown out when you were 20. However, even if there had been any
>> unnecessary bragging, I would have hoped that you would have had the
>> sensitivity to avoid upsetting someone who most of us call a friend. If you
>> do not count the other list members (at least those who contribute
>regularly)
>> as your friends then that is sad.
>
>If you haven't noticed any bravado, you must not have been paying attention.
>In the past months her engine has been said to have all
>the way from 125 HP tp well over 140 HP and the engine (starting out as a
>1500) mow is almost 1600 cc, runs all day at well over 100
>mph
I have also heard that my engine is 170hp! A claim that I have never made! And
I have never claimed that it runs all day at well over 100mph! I said that in
freeway travel, I criuse at 75-80-with the flow of traffic in the fast lane.
(And they DO drive that fast here!) I HAVE claimed that I have had it up to
98mph last winter in the desert-but that I felt I didn't have the experience
and skill to really drive it much faster than that.
As to the technical claims, I have only divulged what I know as I find it out.
>and passes California emissions with ease.
Again, something I have NEVER claimed.
>Somehow the figures don't add up.
Of course! Because people have exagerated them and given them their own life!
(Gee, isn't that what a 'legend' is?)
>>
>> I offered to support Laura in any attempt to expel those she felt had made
>her
>> unwelcome in this community. That offer still stands. However, I would be
>> very sad to see Joe go: as one of the most knowledgeable and dedicated
>> amongst us, keeper of the register, and a regular contributor, he is a
>> valuable person to have around. Much better to apologise - even if it is
>just
>> for your insensitivity, and not your views - and we can all get back to
>being
>> friends. Even if you feel in yourself you have done nothing wrong,
>apologise
>> anyway - is it really worth that little bit of hurt pride to lose Laura from
>> this list forever? Even if they were not intended them that way, your
>> comments clearly were hurtful - Laura would still be around if they were
>not.
That ans at the end of the email exchange, the comment that I was playing a
game of "I'm leaving" so that I could be begged back. Yes, Joe-I saw the email
you sent behind my back. If I stayed, I would forever be wondering what you
were up too. Don't need it!
>I don't want to drive anyone off the list either but I do think that anyone
>who chooses to spout "Facts and Figures" ought to know that
>if they can't (or won't) be substantiated, people will likely not believe
>them. THat goes for guys and gals alike.
And I said that I don't care if believe or not because I know and the people
who have seen know (though, in your words, "What do they know", and they're
snickering and then they think I'm Dave's helpless victim...when actually Dave
is more like MY 'victim' as he has done all my repair wrork for FREE!) But, my
knowing and my friends believing wasn't good enough for you! Whether you
believe or not-doesn't diminish my joy of Nigel! I will not be goaded!
>> Some may feel that I am getting involved in something that is not my
>business,
>> that is between Laura and Joe. That is mostly true, but I am affected,
>since
>> if Laura is driven from this list, then I lose a friend - that is when it
>> becomes my business too.
Oh Richard! I'll always be your friend!
>
>It started out that way, but Laura's message to the list unfortunately brought
>everyone into the frey.
As I said, Joe made claims about what those on the list were thinking and
saying-I say that's pretty low way to attack.
Bring it out into public!
Laura G.-and 'Nigel' of course!
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