Bravo... Rocky!
-----Original Message-----
From: Rocky Frisco <rock@rocky-frisco.com>
To: James H. Nazarian <microdoc@apk.net>
Cc: mgs@autox.team.net <mgs@autox.team.net>
Date: Thursday, November 04, 1999 11:38 PM
Subject: Re: Clutch Bleed
>James H. Nazarian wrote:
>>
>> You, my friend, have a lot to learn (IMHO).
>
>James, nothing personal, but your opinion is not and probably never has
>been humble, from what I've seen on the list so far. I would be willing
>to bet you are not so abrasive nor inflexible in your behavior at work
>or among people who are actually present, right in front of you. The
>anonymity and distance provided by e-mail forums sometimes leads of
>excesses and offenses.
>
>If you and I had met in person at an MG club meeting or concert or
>coffee shop, we might have got along just fine, but I'll take the
>liberty to suggest that you might tone down the heat of the postings on
>the list, even though I'm a rank newbie here and you seem to be well
>known.
>
>Your statement that I have a lot to learn is undoubtedly true; this is
>the condition of a conscious, growing organism such as myself. The
>implication, however, is that you may possibly be the one to teach me,
>or perhaps just that you do *not* have a lot to learn or know more than
>I do.
>
>Want to have a references war? credentials contest? relevant knowledge
>competition?
>I'm willing, but I only engage in these when M of Q rules are observed:
>no personal attacks; no deleterious characterizations; no unreferenced
>statements. By the way, ever hear the old punchline: "The pig loves
>it?" ;)
>
>
>> You might be amazed at the
>> residues of junk that remain in your hydraulic system after a fluid
>> replacement.
>
>Not in mine, I assure you. If brake fluid were Scotch, you would love
>the stuff out of The Luggage. Der Toyful, the Victor TF, was not built
>by me, so until I have entirely redone the brake and clutch system, I
>fully expect them to be at least slightly contaminated with crap. On the
>other hand, within the first days I began to drive the car, I popped it
>up on the jacks and did two wheel cylinders, a flex line and gravity
>drained the brake system and then forced about a gallon of fresh fluid
>through it, so it might pass for potable rotgut gin using the former
>analogy.
>
>> Ever hear of surface tension, and viscosity? Want an illustration
>> of how the stuff can cling? Fill a metal cup with any flavor brake fluid;
DOT
>> 3, 4, or 5; Empty the cup, and return a while later to see how much has
>> adhered to the sides. Well, it is many times worse with small diameter
tubing.
>> Drain all your hydraulics. Blow the lines out with low pressure air.
Refill
>> the system and bleed it. Think you got it cleaned out??? Do it again in a
few
>> months and see what you get.
>
>A few months is long enough for flex-line rubber to deteriorate a bit,
>water to be absorbed as the system "breathes" because of temperature
>changes, minute particles of contaminants to be introduced into the
>lines from the movement of the piston seals. The test would be to check
>it the day after.
>
>> If this method is standard operating procedure on American cars, it
explains a
>> number of things. Do yourself and those with whom you share the road a
>> life-saving favor. Call any or all manufacturers of brake fluid, tell
them
>> your suggestion and ask how they feel about reuse of brake fluid. You'll
hear
>> an emphatic " DON'T ! "
>
>James, I am not recommending, nor did I ever recommend, re-using brake
>fluid. I am referring to the only sure method of achieving a hard pedal
>on an LBC. If you use the pump-up, loosen bleeder, "squirt," tighten
>bleeder, do it again, method, you will never get a truly hard pedal and
>you will have lots of crap in your lines, since they never get
>completely flushed out. If you drain and refill, then use the
>recirculating method, you get a clean system and a hard pedal. If you
>get rusty, contaminated fluid out when you drain, if you have owned this
>car more than a month or two, I would recommend a couple of dozen "Mea
>Culpas," a complete rebuild of the brake system and another couple dozen
>"Thank you, Gods" because you lived to accomplish it. Stopping is
>important.
>
>> Don't count on seeing dirt in a "clear" plastic tube as someone pumps the
>> pedal. The fluid velocity is too high for anyone but Superman to see
anything
>> less than the size of a golf ball sail by. Another purpose of changing
the
>> fluid (DOT 3 & 4 only) is to deal with a well known drawback of those
brake
>> fluids: they are hydrophilic; they attract water. Water in your brake
lines
>> will corrode metal parts. The old fluid is contaminated with moisture and
>> particulates; get rid of it.
>
>Well, I disagree with the first statement since it's contary to my
>experience. I'm 62 and I just now, in the last six months, have finally
>had to buy reading glasses for when the print is fine and the light is
>not, but I can still see a speck of dust or microbubble going down the
>line. Something that might help is that the optical qualities of the
>clear line and fluid tend to magnify anything in the fluid. I also said
>pump the pedal slowly.
>
>> So, you've rebuilt many master cylinders but haven't noticed any tiny
>> orifices. That is truly frightening. They are there; if you haven't seen
them,
>> you are not doing a very thorough job of rebuilding. What you are doing
is
>> potentially dangerous. Because you have been doing something wrong for a
long
>> time does not make it right; it makes it a bad habit that you should
break. I
>> can provide photos of the interior of an MGA master cylinder, clearly
showing
>> the orifices you doubt the existence of. If any MGA 1500 or 1600 listers
want
>> to see it, along with instructions for a complete rebuild, you'll have to
>> e-mail me direct. Unfortunately, I do not have a comparable package for
the
>
>Why don't you post them to a web site and then post the URL to the list?
>Perhaps one of the problems of our attempt to communicate is that terms
>like microscopic, tiny, enormous, big, etc. are amenable to private
>interpretation. I reiterate and refine my statement that I have never
>seen any orifices in Mini or Sprite or MGA master cylinders that any
>sort of microparticle would clog. I also repeat that there are no bits
>of a size to worry me in any system I build or maintain.
>
>> The frequency with which you claim to do hydraulic fluid changes is
>> commendable. I guess your cars must certainly have among the cleanest
>> hydraulic systems in the world, and moisture in your brake lines is
probably
>> held to a minimum. After all, how much moisture can collect in six
months.
>> But. . . you are still wrong to use a fluid recirculation method, and
even
>> worse to recommend it to others; only one itty bitty speck of dirt, or
rust is
>> necessary to disable the brakes. Have pity on those with whom you share
the
>> road.
>
>I disagree with this entire paragraph. The word, "claim" says I might be
>lying. The frequency with which I change brake fluid is just good sense,
>not exemplary, considering how important the brakes are, especially if
>you are a madman like I can be when I have a deserted road to myself or
>an afternoon at the track.
>
>James, I apologize in advance if this concluding comment seems like a
>personal attack; that is not my intention. I feel that I have a right to
>reply not only to your messages, but also their tone.
>
>I have come to suspect that, rather than being mortally concerned for
>the safety of the list members, maybe you just like to scold people and
>be an authority. I assure you: I am 62, non-violemnt, small and frail,
>but *nobody* takes that tone with me when they are standing in front of
>me *ever*. If this response provokes an attack on my sanity, wisdom,
>character or parentage, please take it off-list to e-mail or a personal
>meeting. If you would like to continue the discussion, without
>continuing to characterize me as a careless, dangerous fool, I love a
>good civilized, courteous debate based on concepts and experience. If
>that happens, it's up to the list whether it appears here or not.
>
>-Rock
>--
>Rocky, JJ Cale Band & Pratchett Books: http://www.rocky-frisco.com
>Rocky's Mini Cooper Page: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/6437/
>Mini Books: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/6437/rockboox.html
>
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