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To be totally a-retentive, water is called the 'Universal Solvent'
because it will dissolve many /inorganic/ compounds--esp. 'salts'--as
they are polar compounds (one side of the molecule is positive, and one
side is negative, and the H+/OH- ions in water will 'pull' the salt
apart into its constituent ions and dissolve it). Water is a
particularly lousy solvent of organic (non-polar) compounds; try mixing
vegetable or motor oil with it sometime.
Water is not an oxidizing agent--it is the product of an
oxidation/reduction reaction itself between hydrogen and oxygen--but
when it has polar salts dissolved in it it does conduct current, which
facilitates oxidation-reduction reactions (e.g. 'rust'). Distilled
water will dissolve more salts than (most) tap water, as the tap water
is already further along in saturation. I've heard people say distilled
water is 'ion hungry,' which, for the life of me I don't understand
(unless they mean it will dissolve a bigger pile of salt than really
hard water, which is true).
bs
On 4/8/2019 3:32 PM, WILLIAM B LAWRENCE wrote:
> I have to agree with the theory that grounding can affect an alloy
> radiator. If you have a problem with corrosion despite using corrosion
> inhibitors then the problem is not the fluid component of the system
> it is more likely electrolytic corrosion. Maybe the problem isn't
> engine to chassis grounding, but radiator to chassis grounding. It
> sounds like some effort needs to be made to isolate the radiator
> (electrically) from the chassis. or to neutralize the electrolytic
> forces in the system.
>
> Either keeping the radiator out of the electrical loop or assuring it
> is on the cathode side seems to be a good idea since aluminum is much
> lower on the noble scale than iron. In a positive ground system the
> chassis is the anode and if the radiator is grounded to the chassis it
> will also be an anode and will thus be subject to electrolytic
> corrosion. (The anode, positive pole, in any circuit gives up
> electrons which carry the electrical current. Loss of large numbers of
> electrons weakens the atomic structure of anode material and causes it
> to break down or corrode.)
>
> I don't think that distilled water is necessary and as a matter of
> fact distilled water should be considered more corrosive than tap
> water. Water has the propensity to oxidize most other types of
> materials (universal solvent and all that) and distilled water has
> more of that propensity than harder water because in that case it has
> been partially saturated by dissolved minerals. The argument for
> distilled water is that it carries no calcium or other minerals into
> the cooling system which might eventually foul the heat exchange
> surfaces. That is a minor danger and would only be a problem if you
> were adding large volumes of water on a regular basis. If your cooling
> system is tight it should never be a problem.
>
> Bill Lawrence
> BN1 #554
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Healeys <healeys-bounces@autox.team.net> on behalf of Michael
> Salter <michael.salter@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, April 8, 2019 5:34 PM
> *To:* Robert Begani
> *Cc:* healeys@autox.team.net
> *Subject:* Re: [Healeys] FW: Radiator flush
> Much and all as that sounds like a good theory I am having difficulty
> with the logic.
> A starter won't work if an engine isn't adequately grounded and a
> ground of sufficient size to operate a starter will definitely be big
> enough to eliminate any EMF difference between the engine and the
> chassis.
> I've had an aluminum radiator corrode to worthlessness after only 3
> years, with corrosion inhibitors in the coolant, and have yet to hear
> a realistic explanation for why it happened.
>
> M
>
> On Mon, Apr 8, 2019, 11:56 AM Robert Begani, <rfbegani@gmail.com
>
> Back to the matter of using Distilled Water. I discussed this
> comment with my German/American friend who was installing a
> aluminum radiator in his Lagonda Drop Head Coup. He has owned
> various European Vehicles with aluminum radiators, and classic
> cars with aluminum radiators. He cannot understand the need for
> distilled water if you are using antifreeze which includes
> anti-corrosion additives or using such additive separately.
> Furthermore, the biggest problem with alloy radiators is the
> matter of a good grounded engine. His experience the failure of
> the alloy radiator is a poorly grounded engine which causes the
> electric current to run to ground via the water in coolant system
> hence destroy the aluminum being dissimilar metal. So check the
> soundness of the ground.
>
> Bob Begani
>
> BJ8 67
>
> *From:* Healeys <healeys-bounces@autox.team.net
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 3, 2019 5:51 PM
> *To:* David Nock BCS <healeydoc@sbcglobal.net
> *Cc:* Ahealey help <healeys@autox.team.net
> *Subject:* Re: [Healeys] Radiator flush
>
> " If you are installing a alloy radiator be sure and use Distilled
> water"
>
> Those are definitely the words of someone who "has suffered the
> consequences" ...
>
> M
>
> On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 5:47 PM David Nock BCS
>
> If you are installing a alloy radiator be sure and use
> Distilled water.
>
> The water flows thru the radiator top to bottom. It flows thru
> the heater from the lower hose thru the heater returning to
> the head.
>
> Water will not flow backwards thru the heater valve.
>
> David Nock
> British Car Specialists
> 209-948-8767
> www.britishcarspecialists.com
> <http://www.britishcarspecialists.com>
>
>
> *Sent:*Wednesday, April 03, 2019 11:10 AM
>
>
> *Subject:*[Healeys] Radiator flush
>
> Hello all, __
>
> Preparing to install my alum radiator. Thought I would flush
> the cooling system.
>
> Which diretion direction does water flow? From block though
> Shut off vavle into heater core, or through pipe and back into
> block through the shut off valve?
>
> Is my valve in open ir closed position? Heater controls not
> reinstalled yet. Unit get hot so Ill asume open, but want to
> confirm. Removed thermostat to help water flush ststem easier.
> Im going to add extra hose and splice in a water hose bib.
> That way I can remove it and put system back in place.
>
> Im off this week, but the rain gods are laughing at me. So I'm
> just getting everything ready for the sweet spot of having
> time and sunshine so I can back the car out of the garage and
> flush the system. I plan to drain the anti freeze and fill
> with flush chemicals and water when I'm ready to flush. Bought
> new anti freeze for my new radiator.
>
> Driving season is fast approaching.
>
> Happy roads and saftey fast
>
> Ira Erbs
> Portland, OR
> typos and artifacts are the fault of my phone
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Suggested annual donation $12.75
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> Suggested annual donation $12.75
>
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<p>To be totally a-retentive, water is called the 'Universal
Solvent' because it will dissolve many <i>inorganic</i>
compounds--esp. 'salts'--as they are polar compounds (one side of
the molecule is positive, and one side is negative, and the H+/OH-
ions in water will 'pull' the salt apart into its constituent ions
and dissolve it). Water is a particularly lousy solvent of
organic (non-polar) compounds; try mixing vegetable or motor oil
with it sometime.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Water is not an oxidizing agent--it is the product of an
oxidation/reduction reaction itself between hydrogen and
oxygen--but when it has polar salts dissolved in it it does
conduct current, which facilitates oxidation-reduction reactions
(e.g. 'rust'). Distilled water will dissolve more salts than
(most) tap water, as the tap water is already further along in
saturation. I've heard people say distilled water is 'ion
hungry,' which, for the life of me I don't understand (unless they
mean it will dissolve a bigger pile of salt than really hard
water, which is true).<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>bs</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/8/2019 3:32 PM, WILLIAM B LAWRENCE
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM6PR07MB4538A89058F9BB90DF351244A52C0@DM6PR07MB4538.namprd07.prod.outlook.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<style type="text/css" style="display:none;"> P
{margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} </style>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
I have to agree with the theory that grounding can affect an
alloy radiator. If you have a problem with corrosion despite
using corrosion inhibitors then the problem is not the fluid
component of the system it is more likely electrolytic
corrosion. Maybe the problem isn't engine to chassis grounding,
but radiator to chassis grounding. It sounds like some effort
needs to be made to isolate the radiator (electrically) from the
chassis. or to neutralize the electrolytic forces in the
system. </div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Either keeping the radiator out of the electrical loop or
assuring it is on the cathode side seems to be a good idea since
aluminum is much lower on the noble scale than iron. In a
positive ground system the chassis is the anode and if the
radiator is grounded to the chassis it will also be an anode and
will thus be subject to electrolytic corrosion. (The anode,
positive pole, in any circuit gives up electrons which carry the
electrical current. Loss of large numbers of electrons weakens
the atomic structure of anode material and causes it to break
down or corrode.)</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
I don't think that distilled water is necessary and as a matter
of fact distilled water should be considered more corrosive than
tap water. Water has the propensity to oxidize most other types
of materials (universal solvent and all that) and distilled
water has more of that propensity than harder water because in
that case it has been partially saturated by dissolved minerals.
The argument for distilled water is that it carries no calcium
or other minerals into the cooling system which might eventually
foul the heat exchange surfaces. That is a minor danger and
would only be a problem if you were adding large volumes of
water on a regular basis. If your cooling system is tight it
should never be a problem.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Bill Lawrence</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
BN1 #554</div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex="-1">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt"
face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b>
Healeys <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:healeys-bounces@autox.team.net";><healeys-bounces@autox.team.net></a>
on behalf of
Michael Salter <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:michael.salter@gmail.com";><michael.salter@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 8, 2019 5:34 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Begani<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:healeys@autox.team.net";>healeys@autox.team.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Healeys] FW: Radiator flush</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="auto">Much and all as that sounds like a good theory I
am having difficulty with the logic.
<div dir="auto">A starter won't work if an engine isn't
adequately grounded and a ground of sufficient size to
operate a starter will definitely be big enough to eliminate
any EMF difference between the engine and the chassis. </div>
<div dir="auto">I've had an aluminum radiator corrode to
worthlessness after only 3 years, with corrosion inhibitors
in the coolant, and have yet to hear a realistic explanation
for why it happened. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">M</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="x_gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="x_gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 8, 2019, 11:56
AM Robert Begani, <<a href="mailto:rfbegani@gmail.com";
moz-do-not-send="true">rfbegani@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="x_gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;
border-left:1px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US">
<div class="x_m_3815811086204272847WordSection1">
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;
color:#1f497d">Back to the matter of using Distilled
Water. I discussed this comment with my
German/American friend who was installing a aluminum
radiator in his Lagonda Drop Head Coup. He has
owned various European Vehicles with aluminum
radiators, and classic cars with aluminum
radiators. He cannot understand the need for
distilled water if you are using antifreeze which
includes anti-corrosion additives or using such
additive separately. Furthermore, the biggest
problem with alloy radiators is the matter of a good
grounded engine. His experience the failure of the
alloy radiator is a poorly grounded engine which
causes the electric current to run to ground via the
water in coolant system hence destroy the aluminum
being dissimilar metal. So check the soundness of
the ground.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;
color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;
color:#1f497d">Bob Begani</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;
color:#1f497d">BJ8 67</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;
color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Healeys <<a
href="mailto:healeys-bounces@autox.team.net";
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">healeys-bounces@autox.team.net</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Michael Salter<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 3, 2019 5:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> David Nock BCS <<a
href="mailto:healeydoc@sbcglobal.net";
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">healeydoc@sbcglobal.net</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Ahealey help <<a
href="mailto:healeys@autox.team.net"; target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">healeys@autox.team.net</a>>;
i erbs <<a href="mailto:eyera3000@gmail.com";
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">eyera3000@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Healeys] Radiator flush</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Comic
Sans MS"">" If you are installing a alloy
radiator be sure and use Distilled water"</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Comic
Sans MS"">Those are definitely the words of
someone who "has suffered the consequences"
...</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Comic
Sans MS""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Comic
Sans MS"">M</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 5:47
PM David Nock BCS <<a
href="mailto:healeydoc@sbcglobal.net";
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">healeydoc@sbcglobal.net</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none; border-left:solid
#cccccc 1.0pt; padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt; margin-top:5.0pt;
margin-right:0in; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Century",serif;
color:black">If you are installing a
alloy radiator be sure and use Distilled
water.
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Century",serif;
color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Century",serif;
color:black">The water flows thru the
radiator top to bottom. It flows thru
the heater from the lower hose thru the
heater returning to the head.
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Century",serif;
color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Century",serif;
color:black">Water will not flow
backwards thru the heater valve.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Century",serif;
color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Century",serif;
color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Century",serif;
color:black">David Nock<br>
British Car Specialists<br>
209-948-8767<br>
<a
href="http://www.britishcarspecialists.com";
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.britishcarspecialists.com</a></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;
color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"
style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;
color:black">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;
color:black">
<a
href="mailto:eyera3000@gmail.com";
title="eyera3000@gmail.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">
i erbs</a> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"
style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;
color:black">Sent:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;
color:black"> Wednesday, April 03,
2019 11:10 AM</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"
style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;
color:black">To:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;
color:black">
<a
href="mailto:healeys@autox.team.net";
title="healeys@autox.team.net"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">
Ahealey help</a> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"
style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;
color:black">Subject:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;
color:black"> [Healeys] Radiator
flush</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">Hello
all, <u>
</u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
color:black">Preparing to install my
alum radiator. Thought I would flush
the cooling system.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
color:black">Which diretion
direction does water flow? From
block though
<br>
Shut off vavle into heater core, or
through pipe and back into block
through the shut off valve?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
color:black">Is my valve in open ir
closed position? Heater controls not
reinstalled yet. Unit get hot so Ill
asume open, but want to confirm.
Removed thermostat to help water
flush ststem easier. Im going to add
extra hose and splice in a water
hose bib. That way I can remove it
and put system back in place.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
color:black">Im off this week, but
the rain gods are laughing at me. So
I'm just getting everything ready
for the sweet spot of having time
and sunshine so I can back the car
out of the garage and flush the
system. I plan to drain the anti
freeze and fill with flush chemicals
and water when I'm ready to flush.
Bought new anti freeze for my new
radiator.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
color:black">Driving season is fast
approaching.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
color:black">Happy roads and saftey
fast</span></p>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
color:black">Ira Erbs<br>
Portland, OR<br>
typos and artifacts are the fault
of my phone</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="x_MsoNormal"
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre"
wrap="">_______________________________________________
Archive: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys";>http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://autox.team.net/archive";>http://autox.team.net/archive</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:Healeys@autox.team.net";>Healeys@autox.team.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys";>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys</a>
</pre>
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