--===============7762007254764246640==
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gentlemen,
The Charles Falco article is somewhat dated, but overall is factually
correct if not complete. I've personally spoken with Charles regarding
this article. He is correct, it is common to find UNC bolts and studs used
where BSW threads were originally tapped. I discuss this in my article
with regard to the generator link adjusting bolt on BN1/2 (possibly
100-6's) and Bugeye Sprites.
One of the biggest misconceptions that I've come across (even from Brits
that I know) is that *the only Whitworth fasteners* are BSW, and BSF, BSP,
BSPT, BSB, etc... and others are somehow NOT Whitworth. Totally untrue!
Whitworth is BY DEFINITION is...
*Whitworth Screw Thread Form: **A thread form and system of standard sizes,
proposed by Joseph Whitworth in 1841 and adopted as standard in the U.K.,
having a flank angle of 55=C2=B0 and a rounded top (crest) and foot
(root). (Named after Sir Joseph Whitworth (1803--87), English engineer). *
As you can read, Whitworth is a thread form, and NOT a hex bolt/nut size.
Note that this says NOTHING about hex head/spanner size.
Case in point...The confusion has to do with bolt head sizing with regard
to certain other British fasteners such as BSC or BSCy - (British Standard
Cycle) and the older now obsolete CEI - (Cycle Engineers Institute} bolts,
that while they have Whitworth hex heads, are a thread form with a 60=C2=B0=
thread
pitch angle, ergo not Whitworth.
Are we confused yet? Wikipedia also does not help the debate since they
incorrectly list BSC bolts as Whitworth, when technically they are not.
*There will be a quiz *;-^)
Cheers,
Curt
On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 9:01 PM Mirek Sharp <m.g.sharp@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Here is another article (actually an old post from another forum) on
> British fasteners. It is interesting but note that the author was not
> clear on the pipe threads, not distinguishing BSPP and BSPT, and provides
> somewhat dubious advice at the end about =E2=80=9Cmaking do=E2=80=9D with=
UNC instead of
> the correct fastener. My advice =E2=80=93 use the correct threading syst=
em and
> grade of bolt. Note, that despite my earlier tongue-in-cheek comments, t=
he
> BA thread system is based on metric principles, but with the unavoidable
> English twist.
>
>
>
> Cheers, Mirek
>
>
>
> *From:* Healeys [mailto:healeys-bounces@autox.team.net] *On Behalf Of *Cu=
rtis
> Arndt
> *Sent:* November-22-18 3:46 AM
> *To:* Michael Oritt
> *Cc:* John Vrugtman; Healey List
> *Subject:* Re: [Healeys] bolt identification
>
>
>
> John,
>
>
>
> Here is some more pertinent information that might help...
>
>
>
> I've attached a copy of my 1957 vintage machinery Handbook which shows th=
e
> various markings used to denote Whitworth from Unified fasteners.
>
>
>
> Also an excerpt from one of my yet completed articles.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Curt
>
> *Error! Filename not specified.*
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 12:32 AM Curtis Arndt <cnaarndt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> John,
>
>
>
> Like most British bolts of the earlier part of last century, the Vendor
> name was printed on the bolt, e.g. Rubery-Owen or RO, Bees, Wiley, Woden
> and about 30+ others. So to answer your question... BEES was the vendor.
> The bolt you refer to with an actual Bee on the head is a very early bolt=
,
> and is one that I have in my collection. It most likely is a Whitworth
> bolt, either BSF (fine) or BSW (coarse).
>
>
>
> The "Rubery Owen B28-35" that you refer to is a "Mild" steel bolt,
> similar to an SAE Grade "2" US bolt. The strength rating is "B" and the
> measurement is 28 to 35 tons per square inch or tons tensile. The range
> refers to "yield" strength and "ultimate tensile" strength as described i=
n
> my attached article. FYI, multiply 28 or 35 times a ton and you'll get t=
he
> strength in pounds, or psi... HOWEVER we're talking British here, so it'=
s
> not 2,000 pounds as in a US ton but 2,240 pounds as in a British Long Ton=
!
>
>
>
> Along with the vendor name was the strength rating expressed as a letter
> which for *hi tensile* bolts was D, E, F and G prior to 1950 and changed
> to R, S, T, U, V, W, and X after 1950. I have included (attached) my
> draft on British Strength rating codes decoded which I hope to officially
> publish on my blog site once it's up and running.
>
>
>
> Also, the bolt heads were marked to differentiate Whitworth (BSW, BSF,
> etc...) from UNF and UNC once this new thread form system was phased in
> during the early 1950s. For bolts, that was a "circular" depression on t=
he
> head of the bolt which meant the bolt was a "Unified" versus a "Whitworth=
"
> thread form bolt.
>
>
>
> I hope this helps and email me directly if you have any further questions=
.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Curt
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 9:01 PM Michael Oritt <michael.oritt@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi John--
>
>
>
> Check this out:
>
>
>
>
> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-2zllShyvv34/UQLGj7XqZjI/AAAAAAAAPUg/e1--MCxAPKY=
/s1600/Bee:1.jpg
>
>
>
> Happy Thanksgiving to you and Cindi.
>
>
>
> Best--Michael Oritt
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 10:19 PM John Vrugtman <javrugtman@htcnet.org>
> wrote:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubery_Owen
>
> Bees bolts seem to be very obscure, saw a picture of one, but no referenc=
e
> to the manufacturer
>
> On 11/21/2018 6:58 PM, warthodson@aol.com wrote:
>
> I was sorting thru a box of hardware & found two bolts that I cannot
> identify. They both are approx. 1/4" diameter. They both have the same
> thread per inch. According to my thread gage they are between 24 & 26 TPI=
.
> So call it 25 TPI. I do not have a metric thread gage to check them again=
st.
>
>
>
> One is marked "Rubery Owen B28-35" on the head & measures about 5/8" long=
.
> The other is marked "BEES" & has a embossed emblem of a bee on the head &
> measures about 3/4" long. The lengths do not include the head, of course.
> No other markings on the heads.
>
> They will not accept a BSF nut, UNF or UNC nut or any metric nuts that I
> have.
>
>
>
> Can anyone ID these for me?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Gary Hodson
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation $12.75
>
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>
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>
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>
> _______________________________________________
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> Suggested annual donation $12.75
>
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>
--000000000000b91e0f057b5e5475
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Gentlemen,<div><br></div><div>The Charles Falco article is=
somewhat dated, but overall is factually correct if not complete.=C2=A0 I&=
#39;ve personally spoken with Charles regarding this article.=C2=A0 He is c=
orrect, it is common to find UNC bolts and studs used where BSW threads wer=
e originally tapped.=C2=A0 I discuss this in my article with regard to the =
generator link adjusting bolt on BN1/2 (possibly 100-6's) and Bugeye Sp=
rites.</div><div><br></div><div>One of the biggest misconceptions that I=
9;ve come across (even from Brits that I know) is that <u>the only <b>Whitw=
orth</b> fasteners</u> are BSW, and BSF, BSP, BSPT, BSB, etc... and others =
are somehow NOT Whitworth.=C2=A0 Totally untrue!=C2=A0 Whitworth is BY DEFI=
NITION is...</div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><b><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><i><br></i></span><=
/b></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12=
pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><b><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><i>Whitworth Screw Thread=C2=A0Form=
:=C2=A0</i></span></b><i style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:small"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif=
"><b>A thread form and system of standard sizes, proposed by Joseph Whitwor=
th in
1841 and adopted as standard in the U.K., <u>having a flank angle of 55=C2=
=B0 and a
rounded top (crest) and foot (root)</u>.</b></span><b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">=C2=A0</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">(Named after Sir Jo=
seph Whitworth (1803--87), English
engineer).</span>=C2=A0</b></i></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",seri=
f"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0</span></p></div><div>As you can read, Whitworth is a thread f=
orm, and NOT a hex bolt/nut size.=C2=A0 Note that this says NOTHING about h=
ex head/spanner size.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Case in point...The co=
nfusion has to do with bolt head sizing with regard to certain other Britis=
h fasteners such as BSC or BSCy - (British Standard Cycle) and the older no=
w obsolete CEI - (Cycle Engineers Institute} bolts, that while they have Wh=
itworth hex heads, are a thread form with a 60<span style=3D"font-family:Ar=
ial,sans-serif;font-size:10.5pt">=C2=B0</span>=C2=A0thread pitch angle, erg=
o not Whitworth.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Are we confused yet?=
=C2=A0 Wikipedia also does not help the debate since they incorrectly list =
BSC bolts as Whitworth, when technically they are not.</div><div><br></div>=
<div><b>There will be a quiz </b>;-^)</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div=
><div><br></div><div>Curt</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div=
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 9:01 PM Mir=
ek Sharp <<a href=3D"mailto:m.g.sharp@sympatico.ca"; target=3D"_blank">m.=
g.sharp@sympatico.ca</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
><div lang=3D"EN-CA" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_5269663=
606649340336m_-7531136270762367447WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-seri=
f"">Here is another article (actually an old post from another forum) =
on British fasteners.=C2=A0 It is interesting but note that the author was =
not clear on the pipe threads, not distinguishing BSPP and BSPT, and provid=
es somewhat dubious advice at the end about =E2=80=9Cmaking do=E2=80=9D wit=
h UNC instead of the correct fastener.=C2=A0 My advice =E2=80=93 use the co=
rrect threading system and grade of bolt.=C2=A0 Note, that despite my earli=
er tongue-in-cheek comments, the BA thread system is based on metric princi=
ples, but with the unavoidable English twist.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri=
","sans-serif""><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",&=
quot;sans-serif"">Cheers, Mirek<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",&q=
uot;sans-serif""><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=
","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""=
> Healeys [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:healeys-bounces@autox.team.net"; target=
=3D"_blank">healeys-bounces@autox.team.net</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Curtis =
Arndt<br><b>Sent:</b> November-22-18 3:46 AM<br><b>To:</b> Michael Oritt<br=
><b>Cc:</b> John Vrugtman; Healey List<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Healeys] bol=
t identification<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">John,<u></u><u></u></p><div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
>Here is some more pertinent information that might help...<u></u><u></u></=
p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal">I've attached a copy of my 1957 vintage machinery Ha=
ndbook which shows the various markings used to denote Whitworth from Unifi=
ed fasteners.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Also an excerpt from one of=
my yet completed articles.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Cheers,<u></u=
><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div=
><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Curt<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">Error! Filename not specified.</span></b>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u>=
</u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 =
at 12:32 AM Curtis Arndt <<a href=3D"mailto:cnaarndt@gmail.com"; target=
=3D"_blank">cnaarndt@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><block=
quote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">J=
ohn,<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><=
/div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Like most British bolts of the earlier par=
t of last century, the Vendor name was printed on the bolt, e.g. Rubery-Owe=
n or RO, Bees, Wiley, Woden and about 30+ others.=C2=A0 So to answer your q=
uestion... BEES was the vendor.=C2=A0 The bolt you refer to with an actual =
Bee on the head is a very early bolt, and is one that I have in my collecti=
on.=C2=A0 It most likely is a Whitworth bolt, either BSF (fine) or BSW (coa=
rse).<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></=
u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-family=
:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">=C2=A0"Rubery O=
wen B28-35"</span>=C2=A0that you refer to is a "Mild" steel =
bolt, similar to an SAE Grade "2" US bolt.=C2=A0 The strength rat=
ing is "B" and the measurement is 28 to 35 tons per square inch o=
r tons tensile.=C2=A0 The range refers to "yield" strength and &q=
uot;ultimate tensile" strength as described in my attached article.=C2=
=A0 FYI, multiply 28 or 35 times a ton and you'll get the strength in p=
ounds, or psi... HOWEVER=C2=A0 we're talking British here, so it's =
not 2,000 pounds as in a US ton but 2,240 pounds as in a British Long Ton!<=
u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>=
</div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Along with the vendor name was the streng=
th rating expressed as a letter which for <u>hi tensile</u> bolts was D, E,=
F and G prior to 1950 and changed to R, S, T,=C2=A0 U,=C2=A0 V,=C2=A0 W,=
=C2=A0 and X after 1950.=C2=A0 I have included (attached) my draft on Briti=
sh Strength rating codes decoded which I hope to officially publish on my b=
log site once it's up and running.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Al=
so, the bolt heads were marked to differentiate Whitworth (BSW, BSF, etc...=
) from UNF and UNC once this new thread form system was phased in during th=
e early 1950s.=C2=A0 For bolts, that was a "circular" depression =
on the head of the bolt which meant the bolt was a "Unified" vers=
us a "Whitworth" thread form bolt.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p=
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al">I hope this helps and email me directly if you have any further questio=
ns.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u>=
</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal">Curt<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<=
u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><=
/div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><div><p class=3D"M=
soNormal">On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 9:01 PM Michael Oritt <<a href=3D"mail=
to:michael.oritt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">michael.oritt@gmail.com</a>&g=
t; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-le=
ft:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-r=
ight:0cm"><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#3333f=
f">Hi John--<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><spa=
n style=3D"color:#3333ff"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#3333ff">Check this out:<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#3333ff">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span styl=
e=3D"color:#3333ff"><a href=3D"http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-2zllShyvv34/UQLGj7=
XqZjI/AAAAAAAAPUg/e1--MCxAPKY/s1600/Bee:1.jpg" target=3D"_blank">http://3.b=
p.blogspot.com/-2zllShyvv34/UQLGj7XqZjI/AAAAAAAAPUg/e1--MCxAPKY/s1600/Bee:1=
.jpg</a></span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#33=
33ff">Happy Thanksgiving to you and Cindi.</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><span style=3D"color:#3333ff">Best--Michael Oritt</span><u></u><u>=
</u></p></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><d=
iv><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 10:19 PM John Vrugtm=
an <<a href=3D"mailto:javrugtman@htcnet.org"; target=3D"_blank">javrugtma=
n@htcnet.org</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"bor=
der:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-l=
eft:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bot=
tom:12.0pt"><a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubery_Owen"; target=3D=
"_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubery_Owen</a><br><br>Bees bolts se=
em to be very obscure, saw a picture of one, but no reference to the manufa=
cturer=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 11/21/2018 6:=
58 PM, <a href=3D"mailto:warthodson@aol.com"; target=3D"_blank">warthodson@a=
ol.com</a> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.=
0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"=
>I was sorting thru a box of hardware & found two bolts that I cannot i=
dentify. They both are approx. 1/4" diameter. They both have the same =
thread per inch. According to my thread gage they are between 24 & 26 T=
PI. So call it 25 TPI. I do not have a metric thread gage to check them aga=
inst.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";c=
olor:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-=
serif";color:black">One is marked "Rubery Owen B28-35" on th=
e head & measures about 5/8" long. The other is marked "BEES&=
quot; & has a embossed emblem of a bee on the head & measures about=
3/4" long. The lengths do not include the head, of course. No other m=
arkings on the heads.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sa=
ns-serif";color:black">They will not accept a BSF nut, UNF or UNC nut =
or any metric nuts that I have.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p=
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Aria=
l","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>=
</div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Can anyone ID thes=
e for me?<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif&quo=
t;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";color:black">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial=
","sans-serif";color:black">Gary Hodson =C2=A0=C2=A0<u></u><=
u></u></span></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></blockquote><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0=
<u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">____=
___________________________________________<br>Support Team.Net <a href=3D"=
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