Re: [Healeys] valve guides

[richard mayor <mayorrichard@hotmail.com>]

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Wow!  That video took me back to my college algebra days. Although I was at=
tracted to science=2C then business=2C ultimately I decided to study law an=
d become an attorney.  I really hated those complicated convoluted algebrai=
c equations. =20

Now=2C to add fuel to the fire.  I believe that my engine builder has been =
using bronze valve guides in my race motors for over 30 years and I have ne=
ver had a problem. Is that possible now that I've read all these damning po=
sts about bronze valve guides?

Richard

Date: Sun=2C 29 Mar 2015 10:49:06 -0400
From: michaelsalter@gmail.com
To: pajtamuvek@gmail.com
CC: healeys@autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Healeys] valve guides

Ok Gergo=2C=20
We are making progress....
>From your answer I believe that you would concur that both the ID and the O=
D of an unrestrained guide would increase as it is heated . i.e. thermal ex=
pansion.
However=2C you conclude that solids are=2C to quote=2C "not that "solid" as=
 they may look".=20
>From that statement I presume that you are indicating that the solid materi=
al of the guide distorts or deforms because it is constrained by the hole i=
n the cylinder head.
Now I would ask you to refer to this video from Purdue University College o=
f Technology:=20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DV6D3QgdO5Bk
If you are not into the mathematics just skip to 6:45 for the result.
371=2C000 lbs (168tonnes)!!!
Now check the structural strength of bronze... of course it varies a little=
 with different alloys but a yield strength of 650 Mpa ( 94274 p.s.i.) is t=
ypical.
The mathematics required to use these numbers to calculate the forces requi=
red to radially crush a cylinder (i.e. our valve guide)  are a little compl=
ex but be assured the numbers are MASSIVE.
So=2C if the wall of our guide is presumed to have an area of only 600 sq m=
m. (0.1 sq in)=2C it would take 4276 kg (9427lbf)to distort or deform it.=20
Now=2C armed with that knowledge please read my blog post carefully and you=
 may have an inkling for why I strongly advise against the use of bronze gu=
ides in a cast iron head.

Michael S






On Sun=2C Mar 29=2C 2015 at 3:25 AM=2C Austin Healey <pajtamuvek@gmail.com>=
 wrote:
Yes. This is happening. The head material expands less=2C the guide expand =
more=2C and thus it has to go somewhere. Metals are not that "solid" as the=
y might look like.
Gergo
2015-03-29 4:09 GMT+02:00 Michael Salter <michaelsalter@gmail.com>:
So Gergo=2C=20
if I understand you correctly in a situation where the guide was not instal=
led in a head and it was then heated the outside diameter and for that matt=
er the inside diameter of the guide would increase due to thermal expansion=
....correct?
However=2C the difference=2C when the guide is installed in the head is tha=
t the head material=2C i.e. the hole that the guide is installed in=2C woul=
d prevent the guide from expanding or=2C expressed another way=2C because t=
he hole in the head would not increase in diameter as much as the guide wou=
ld increase in diameter the head material would effectively compress the gu=
ide and prevent it from expanding..... correct?

Michael S

On Sat=2C Mar 28=2C 2015 at 4:38 PM=2C Austin Healey <pajtamuvek@gmail.com>=
 wrote:
Yes it does. The material has to expand somewhere. It cant go in the oposit=
e direction.
g
2015-03-28 20:12 GMT+01:00 Michael Salter <michaelsalter@gmail.com>:
Hi Gergo=2C=20
just so I'm clear...you are suggesting that the internal diameter of the gu=
ide will get smaller as it heats up therefore that extra clearance is requi=
red?
Michael S

On Sat=2C Mar 28=2C 2015 at 3:08 AM=2C Austin Healey <pajtamuvek@gmail.com>=
 wrote:
Bronze guides expand more when they heat up. Thats why You have to use grea=
ter clearance. But when they work=2C the clearance will be the same. Worn o=
ut guides have two negative side effects: oil consumption=2C and premature =
wear on the valves as they dissipate heat slower due to rocking on the valv=
e seat. The exhaust guides are more prone to oil consumption=2C exhaust gui=
des are more prone to overheating.
Gergo
2015-03-27 20:01 GMT+01:00 Michael Salter <michaelsalter@gmail.com>:
Hi Raymond=2C=20
The factory specification calls for 0.0025 to 0.0015 clearance for the inle=
ts and 0.002 to 0.001 clearance for the exhausts if you are using cast iron=
 guides however if you are using bronze THAT WILL NOT WORK!!!
To be safe with bronze guides you will have to hog them out to about 0.006"=
 clearance..which means there is really no point in replacing them.
I would point you to this article on my blog...been there done that...

Michael S
BN1 #174

On Fri=2C Mar 27=2C 2015 at 2:17 PM=2C RAYMOND SMITHSON <rjsmithson@shaw.ca=
> wrote:
I am rebuilding my 3000 cylinder head and have found the inlet valve stems =
have .008" clearance but the exhaust stems have only .002" clearance. Does =
anyone know if this is common?
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If you can't fix it with a hammer=2C you've got an electrical problem.

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--=20
If you can't fix it with a hammer=2C you've got an electrical problem.

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--=20
If you can't fix it with a hammer=2C you've got an electrical problem.

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--=20
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ard@hotmail.com                                           =

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<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>Wow!&nbsp=3B That video took me =
back to my college algebra days. Although I was attracted to science=2C the=
n business=2C ultimately I decided to study law and become an attorney.&nbs=
p=3B I really hated those complicated convoluted algebraic equations.&nbsp=
=3B <br><br>Now=2C to add fuel to the fire.&nbsp=3B I believe that my engin=
e builder has been using bronze valve guides in my race motors for over 30 =
years and I have never had a problem. Is that possible now that I've read a=
ll these damning posts about bronze valve guides?<br><br>Richard<br><br><di=
v><hr id=3D"stopSpelling">Date: Sun=2C 29 Mar 2015 10:49:06 -0400<br>From: =
michaelsalter@gmail.com<br>To: pajtamuvek@gmail.com<br>CC: healeys@autox.te=
am.net<br>Subject: Re: [Healeys] valve guides<br><br><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
class=3D"ecxgmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms=2Csans-serif=
=3Bfont-size:small=3B">Ok Gergo=2C <br></div><div class=3D"ecxgmail_default=
" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms=2Csans-serif=3Bfont-size:small=3B">We =
are making progress....<br></div><div class=3D"ecxgmail_default" style=3D"f=
ont-family:comic sans ms=2Csans-serif=3Bfont-size:small=3B">From your answe=
r I believe that you would concur that both the ID and the OD of an unrestr=
ained guide would increase as it is heated . i.e. thermal expansion.<br></d=
iv><div class=3D"ecxgmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms=2Csan=
s-serif=3Bfont-size:small=3B">However=2C you conclude that solids are=2C to=
 quote=2C "not that "solid" as they may look". <br></div><div class=3D"ecxg=
mail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms=2Csans-serif=3Bfont-size:s=
mall=3B">From that statement I presume that you are indicating that the sol=
id material of the guide distorts or deforms because it is constrained by t=
he hole in the cylinder head.<br></div><div class=3D"ecxgmail_default" styl=
e=3D"font-family:comic sans ms=2Csans-serif=3Bfont-size:small=3B">Now I wou=
ld ask you to refer to this video from&nbsp=3BPurdue University College of =
Technology: <br><a href=3D"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DV6D3QgdO5Bk"; t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DV6D3QgdO5Bk</a><br></div=
><div class=3D"ecxgmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms=2Csans-=
serif=3Bfont-size:small=3B">If you are not into the mathematics just skip t=
o 6:45 for the result.<br></div><div class=3D"ecxgmail_default" style=3D"fo=
nt-family:comic sans ms=2Csans-serif=3Bfont-size:small=3B">371=2C000 lbs (1=
68tonnes)!!!<br></div><div class=3D"ecxgmail_default" style=3D"font-family:=
comic sans ms=2Csans-serif=3Bfont-size:small=3B">Now check the structural s=
trength of bronze... of course it varies a little with different alloys but=
 a yield strength of 650 Mpa ( 94274 p.s.i.) is typical.<br></div><div clas=
s=3D"ecxgmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms=2Csans-serif=3Bfo=
nt-size:small=3B">The mathematics required to use these numbers to calculat=
e the forces required to radially crush a cylinder (i.e. our valve guide)&n=
bsp=3B are a little complex but be assured the numbers are MASSIVE.<br>So=
=2C if the wall of our guide is presumed to have an area of only 600 sq mm.=
 (0.1 sq in)=2C it would take 4276 kg (9427lbf)to distort or deform it. <br=
></div><div class=3D"ecxgmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms=
=2Csans-serif=3Bfont-size:small=3B">Now=2C armed with that knowledge please=
 read my <a href=3D"http://www.netbug.net/blogmichael/?p=3D384"; target=3D"_=
blank">blog post</a> carefully and you may have an inkling for why I strong=
ly advise against the use of bronze guides in a cast iron head.<br><br></di=
v><div class=3D"ecxgmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms=2Csans=
-serif=3Bfont-size:small=3B">Michael S<br></div><div class=3D"ecxgmail_defa=
ult" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms=2Csans-serif=3Bfont-size:small=3B">=
<br></div><div class=3D"ecxgmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sans m=
s=2Csans-serif=3Bfont-size:small=3B"><br><br><br><br></div></div><div class=
=3D"ecxgmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"ecxgmail_quote">On Sun=2C Mar 29=2C 2=
015 at 3:25 AM=2C Austin Healey <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=3B<a href=3D"mailto:p=
ajtamuvek@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">pajtamuvek@gmail.com</a>&gt=3B</span=
> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"ecxgmail_quote" style=3D"border-left:1px #=
ccc solid=3Bpadding-left:1ex=3B"><div dir=3D"ltr">Yes. This is happening. T=
he head material expands less=2C the guide expand more=2C and thus it has t=
o go somewhere. Metals are not that "solid" as they might look like.<div><b=
r></div><div>Gergo</div></div><div class=3D"ecxHOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><d=
iv class=3D"ecxgmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"ecxgmail_quote">2015-03-29 4:=
09 GMT+02:00 Michael Salter <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=3B<a href=3D"mailto:micha=
elsalter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">michaelsalter@gmail.com</a>&gt=3B</sp=
an>:<br><blockquote class=3D"ecxgmail_quote" style=3D"border-left:1px #ccc =
solid=3Bpadding-left:1ex=3B"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"ecxgmail_defaul=
t" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms=2Csans-serif=3Bfont-size:small=3B">So=
 Gergo=2C <br>if I understand you correctly in a situation where the guide =
was not installed in a head and it was then heated the outside diameter and=
 for that matter the inside diameter of the guide would increase due to the=
rmal expansion....correct?<br></div><div class=3D"ecxgmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:comic sans ms=2Csans-serif=3Bfont-size:small=3B">However=2C=
 the difference=2C when the guide is installed in the head is that the head=
 material=2C i.e. the hole that the guide is installed in=2C would prevent =
the guide from expanding or=2C expressed another way=2C because the hole in=
 the head would not increase in diameter as much as the guide would increas=
e in diameter the head material would effectively compress the guide and pr=
event it from expanding..... correct?<br><br></div><div class=3D"ecxgmail_d=
efault" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms=2Csans-serif=3Bfont-size:small=
=3B">Michael S<br></div></div><div><div><div class=3D"ecxgmail_extra"><br><=
div class=3D"ecxgmail_quote">On Sat=2C Mar 28=2C 2015 at 4:38 PM=2C Austin =
Healey <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=3B<a href=3D"mailto:pajtamuvek@gmail.com"; targ=
et=3D"_blank">pajtamuvek@gmail.com</a>&gt=3B</span> wrote:<br><blockquote c=
lass=3D"ecxgmail_quote" style=3D"border-left:1px #ccc solid=3Bpadding-left:=
1ex=3B"><div dir=3D"ltr">Yes it does. The material has to expand somewhere.=
 It cant go in the oposite direction.<div><br></div><div>g</div></div><div>=
<div><div class=3D"ecxgmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"ecxgmail_quote">2015-0=
3-28 20:12 GMT+01:00 Michael Salter <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=3B<a href=3D"mail=
to:michaelsalter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">michaelsalter@gmail.com</a>&g=
t=3B</span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"ecxgmail_quote" style=3D"border-left:1=
px #ccc solid=3Bpadding-left:1ex=3B"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"ecxgmai=
l_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms=2Csans-serif=3Bfont-size:smal=
l=3B">Hi Gergo=2C <br>just so I'm clear...you are suggesting that the inter=
nal diameter of the guide will get smaller as it heats up therefore that ex=
tra clearance is required?<br></div><div class=3D"ecxgmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:comic sans ms=2Csans-serif=3Bfont-size:small=3B">Michael S<=
br></div></div><div><div><div class=3D"ecxgmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"ec=
xgmail_quote">On Sat=2C Mar 28=2C 2015 at 3:08 AM=2C Austin Healey <span di=
r=3D"ltr">&lt=3B<a href=3D"mailto:pajtamuvek@gmail.com"; target=3D"_blank">p=
ajtamuvek@gmail.com</a>&gt=3B</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"ecxgmai=
l_quote" style=3D"border-left:1px #ccc solid=3Bpadding-left:1ex=3B"><div di=
r=3D"ltr">Bronze guides expand more when they heat up. Thats why You have t=
o use greater clearance. But when they work=2C the clearance will be the sa=
me. Worn out guides have two negative side effects: oil consumption=2C and =
premature wear on the valves as they dissipate heat slower due to rocking o=
n the valve seat. The exhaust guides are more prone to oil consumption=2C e=
xhaust guides are more prone to overheating.<div><br></div><div>Gergo</div>=
</div><div class=3D"ecxgmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"ecxgmail_quote"><div>=
<div>2015-03-27 20:01 GMT+01:00 Michael Salter <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=3B<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:michaelsalter@gmail.com"; target=3D"_blank">michaelsalter@gmai=
l.com</a>&gt=3B</span>:<br></div></div><blockquote class=3D"ecxgmail_quote"=
 style=3D"border-left:1px #ccc solid=3Bpadding-left:1ex=3B"><div><div><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"ecxgmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sans=
 ms=2Csans-serif=3Bfont-size:small=3B">Hi Raymond=2C <br></div><div class=
=3D"ecxgmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms=2Csans-serif=3Bfon=
t-size:small=3B">The factory specification calls for 0.0025 to 0.0015 clear=
ance for the inlets and 0.002 to 0.001 clearance for the exhausts if you ar=
e using cast iron guides however if you are using bronze THAT WILL NOT WORK=
!!!<br></div><div class=3D"ecxgmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic san=
s ms=2Csans-serif=3Bfont-size:small=3B">To be safe with bronze guides you w=
ill have to hog them out to about 0.006" clearance..which means there is re=
ally no point in replacing them.<br></div><div class=3D"ecxgmail_default" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:comic sans ms=2Csans-serif=3Bfont-size:small=3B">I woul=
d point you to <a href=3D"http://www.netbug.net/blogmichael/?p=3D384"; targe=
t=3D"_blank">this article</a> on my blog...been there done that...<br><br><=
/div><div class=3D"ecxgmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms=2Cs=
ans-serif=3Bfont-size:small=3B">Michael S<br></div><div class=3D"ecxgmail_d=
efault" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms=2Csans-serif=3Bfont-size:small=
=3B">BN1 #174<br></div></div><div class=3D"ecxgmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"ecxgmail_quote"><span>On Fri=2C Mar 27=2C 2015 at 2:17 PM=2C RAYMOND SM=
ITHSON <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=3B<a href=3D"mailto:rjsmithson@shaw.ca"; target=
=3D"_blank">rjsmithson@shaw.ca</a>&gt=3B</span> wrote:<br></span><blockquot=
e class=3D"ecxgmail_quote" style=3D"border-left:1px #ccc solid=3Bpadding-le=
ft:1ex=3B"><span><div><div style=3D"font-family:arial=2Chelvetica=2Csans-se=
rif=3Bfont-size:10pt=3Bcolor:#000000=3B">I am rebuilding my 3000 cylinder h=
ead and have found the inlet valve stems have .008" clearance but the exhau=
st stems have only .002" clearance. Does anyone know if this is common?</di=
v></div><br></span>_______________________________________________<br>=0A=
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ir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><i><span style=3D"color:black=3B">If you c=
an't fix it with a hammer=2C you've got an electrical problem.</span></i><b=
r><br><div></div><div></div><div></div></div></div></div></div>=0A=
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le=3D"color:black=3B">If you can't fix it with a hammer=2C you've got an el=
ectrical problem.</span></i><br><br><div></div><div></div><div></div></div>=
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