fot
[Top] [All Lists]

Re: [Fot] Old Cars

To: Bob Johns <rjohns@woh.rr.com>, FOT Team <fot@autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Fot] Old Cars
From: Michael Porter via Fot <fot@autox.team.net>
Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 17:59:20 -0600
Delivered-to: mharc@autox.team.net
Delivered-to: fot@autox.team.net
References: <B76E099A8E2C428F854D281B0E81BC84@DESKTOPF2062B6>
User-agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--===============0438361724669452003==
 boundary="------------099FE6C6F812B75727514A06"
Content-Language: en-US

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------099FE6C6F812B75727514A06
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 5/24/2020 5:05 PM, Bob Johns via Fot wrote:
> Someone was wondering when detergent oils were initiated.  I grew up 
> right down the street from the Kendall Refinery, and the addition of 
> detergents was a big deal. The detergents addition to old curded 
> engines was a problem as the curd could-would break loose and plug up 
> the oil pump screen.  Any way, as I remember the switch over was 
> 1951/1952 period.  It is hard to find non-detergent these days in the 
> better grades of oil.


The problem was not just plugging up oil screens.  Engines of the time 
used babbitted bearings, which were sealed in place with paraffin-soaked 
wicking and similar materials that became carbonized as the hot metal 
was poured.  Detergents dislodged all that carbonized material and, 
oops!, what little oil pressure such engines had went away.

Detergents were introduced when manufacturers upgraded to shell bearings 
(which were greatly refined during the war years in aircraft engines).  
Detergents tended to keep particles suspended in the oil, which 
minimized the chance of them becoming embedded in shell bearings, which 
was not so much a problem with babbitt metal.  The tin in babbitt metal 
was soft enough (and thick enough) for them to get pounded down so they 
didn't stick up much from the surface, thus minimizing the damage to 
often unhardened crankshafts.  The layer of soft metal in shell bearings 
is very thin, so the prospect of something getting stuck in them and 
being available to wear the crank required rethinking the oils used.

I suspect that the changeover to detergents was accompanied by the same 
sorts of problems that the changeover to synthetics presented.  If the 
engine is designed for the new oils, no problem.  If it wasn't, well, 
/caveat emptor /(my father, IIRC, blew up two engines in his `46 
Plymouth in the space of eight months around the time detergents became 
available).  In the late `70s, I remember reading some horror stories 
about engines converted to full synthetics that burned bearings because 
the synthetics ran out of the bearings a lot more quickly, with an 
attendant loss of oil pressure.  Around the same time, I worked with a 
guy who raced snowmobiles along with his brother.  He thought he'd try 
Mobil1, thinking he'd get another horsepower or so.  First time out, 
burned a bearing.  But, his engine had some hours on it, so they tried 
it in his brother's sled the next weekend, which had a fresh engine.  
Burned a bearing.  Engines designed for the stuff ultimately had tighter 
clearances and higher-volume pumps.  Still remember some nitwit Navy 
lieutenant screaming at me that "jet engines used synthetics," so why 
couldn't he use it in his Toyota Celica (this after complaining about 
noisy operation only after he converted to Arco Graphite, which at the 
time was something like 0W-15... in Florida, in the summertime--its hot 
viscosity was less than water).  Trying patiently to explain that it's 
fine if it's designed for that oil and pointing to the owner's manual 
just didn't work....


Cheers.

-- 


Michael Porter
Roswell, NM


Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance....


--------------099FE6C6F812B75727514A06
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
      charset=windows-1252">
  </head>
  <body>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/24/2020 5:05 PM, Bob Johns via Fot
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:B76E099A8E2C428F854D281B0E81BC84@DESKTOPF2062B6">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
        charset=windows-1252">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR:
          #000000">
          <div>Someone was wondering when detergent oils were
            initiated.  I grew up right down the street from the Kendall
            Refinery, and the addition of detergents was a big deal. 
            The detergents addition to old curded engines was a problem
            as the curd could-would break loose and plug up the oil pump
            screen.  Any way, as I remember the switch over was
            1951/1952 period.  It is hard to find non-detergent these
            days in the better grades of oil.</div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>The problem was not just plugging up oil screens.  Engines of the
      time used babbitted bearings, which were sealed in place with
      paraffin-soaked wicking and similar materials that became
      carbonized as the hot metal was poured.  Detergents dislodged all
      that carbonized material and, oops!, what little oil pressure such
      engines had went away.</p>
    <p>Detergents were introduced when manufacturers upgraded to shell
      bearings (which were greatly refined during the war years in
      aircraft engines).  Detergents tended to keep particles suspended
      in the oil, which minimized the chance of them becoming embedded
      in shell bearings, which was not so much a problem with babbitt
      metal.  The tin in babbitt metal was soft enough (and thick
      enough) for them to get pounded down so they didn't stick up much
      from the surface, thus minimizing the damage to often unhardened
      crankshafts.  The layer of soft metal in shell bearings is very
      thin, so the prospect of something getting stuck in them and being
      available to wear the crank required rethinking the oils used.</p>
    <p>I suspect that the changeover to detergents was accompanied by
      the same sorts of problems that the changeover to synthetics
      presented.  If the engine is designed for the new oils, no
      problem.  If it wasn't, well, <i>caveat emptor </i>(my father,
      IIRC, blew up two engines in his `46 Plymouth in the space of
      eight months around the time detergents became available).  In the
      late `70s, I remember reading some horror stories about engines
      converted to full synthetics that burned bearings because the
      synthetics ran out of the bearings a lot more quickly, with an
      attendant loss of oil pressure.  Around the same time, I worked
      with a guy who raced snowmobiles along with his brother.  He
      thought he'd try Mobil1, thinking he'd get another horsepower or
      so.  First time out, burned a bearing.  But, his engine had some
      hours on it, so they tried it in his brother's sled the next
      weekend, which had a fresh engine.  Burned a bearing.  Engines
      designed for the stuff ultimately had tighter clearances and
      higher-volume pumps.  Still remember some nitwit Navy lieutenant
      screaming at me that "jet engines used synthetics," so why
      couldn't he use it in his Toyota Celica (this after complaining
      about noisy operation only after he converted to Arco Graphite,
      which at the time was something like 0W-15... in Florida, in the
      summertime--its hot viscosity was less than water).  Trying
      patiently to explain that it's fine if it's designed for that oil
      and pointing to the owner's manual just didn't work....</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>Cheers.<br>
    </p>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 


Michael Porter
Roswell, NM


Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking 
distance....</pre>
  </body>
</html>

--------------099FE6C6F812B75727514A06--


--===============0438361724669452003==
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

_______________________________________________
fot@autox.team.net

http://www.fot-racing.com

Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot



--===============0438361724669452003==--


<Prev in Thread] Current Thread [Next in Thread>