--===============2169337166797769224==
boundary="Apple-Mail=_4B74739D-6C65-4351-B1A9-5CC1C6F59238"
--Apple-Mail=_4B74739D-6C65-4351-B1A9-5CC1C6F59238
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
charset=utf-8
John,
Wow, that was an excellent detailed history of the TR6 clutch, =
its problems and offered solutions. You really lay out the history of =
the clutch and the machinations of the supply chain. Even though I=E2=80=99=
ve had my TR6 for over 20 years I=E2=80=99ve never read so detailed an =
explanation.=20
Antidotally, I=E2=80=99ve had a Gunst bearing set up in my car =
that I got when they first came out and have always had a smooth clutch =
acton and never any kind of issue with it. I=E2=80=99m not sure that =
they sell them anymore thought.
Thanks for taking the time John.
Best,
Bob
=E2=80=9972 TR6
> Begin forwarded message:
>=20
> From: John Cyganowski <janah@att.net>
> Subject: Re: [6pack] Clutch Set Recommendations
> Date: June 21, 2021 at 1:21:21 PM EDT
> To: "6pack@autox.team.net" <6pack@autox.team.net>
>=20
> "The six cylinder car's clutch is not such a happy story and is the =
Achilles Heel of the 6 cylinder cars." So says Roger Williams in his =
book; How to Restore Triumph TR5/250 & TR6.
>=20
> I am not going to reproduce that section of the book here, but I will =
try to de-mystify this area of the car.
>=20
> The issues center around:
>=20
> a.) mechanical tolerances/design deficiency.
> b.) supersession
> c.) poor documentation
>=20
> The clutch design does not have much allowance for wear & tear. =
Originally a 0.75" Master Cylinder was fitted and this worked well but =
their were complaints of "heavy clutch" with this system. During the =
1970 model year, the master cylinder was changed to a 0.70" unit. This =
did soften up the clutch pressure, but now wear and tear deficiencies of =
the mechanical parts became significant issues causing drag and partial =
clutch disengagement. Bushing wear, clutch fork pin wear , cylinder =
leaks etc. will cause poor performance. =20
>=20
> The car parts biz is quite dynamic, and companies get sold, go out of =
business, or simply manage the life cycle of their products. Part of =
this is that if they have a slow or small selling item, they look around =
to see if they have another part with greater sales that could be use =
for the slow selling application and they discontinue the part for the =
slow selling application. The original clutch & driven plate were =
Laycock units and worked quite well. But Laycock sold their clutch =
business to LUK. LUK stopped making the TR6 Clutch some time ago. Enter =
Borg & Beck. They offered a clutch for the TR6 that I think became a =
standard. It worked quite well. But in time, they saw slow sales for =
this model and it disappeared from the inventory. B&B used colored paint =
spots to mark their different pressure plates - I believe there was a =
"Yellow-spot" a "Green-Spot" and a "Blue-spot". I don't recall which =
one was used on the TR6, but it was discontinued and superceded with one =
of the other clutches. Should be ok right? It fits right? No problem =
then! Wrong! Wrong because one of these clutches was designed for a =
much heavier vehicle (Van). You want a good tight clutch right? Yes, =
but excessive spring pressure is very hard on the thrust washers when =
the clutch is disengaged. Not a good situation. Also it increases =
pressure on the clutch fork pin and can break it. Anyone who has ever =
had a broken clutch fork pin knows what a PITA it is. Then B&B was sold =
to Delphi and that product line was rationalized with yet another clutch =
that had "cranked" spring fingers. Another generic parts vendor Quinton =
Hazel also has such a clutch. I have heard mixed reports on this type, =
with some folks reporting squealing and other reporting good operation. =
I can only tell you that their original Laycock design was straight =
fingered. Some of the squealing reports seem to be linked with larger =
throw-out bearings when used with the cranked fingered clutches. Now =
some info about the throw-out bearings.
>=20
> The original configuration was an RHP bearing on a bronze carrier that =
was pinned. A while back reports came out about premature failures with =
the RHP bearings. Either a bad batch of bearing was made or quality had =
suffered. It is hard to know what happened, because once a part like =
this gets a "black-eye", people move away from them because they are =
such a pain to change, nobody wants to take a chance on it again. I am =
not saying that RHP bearings are good or bad, simply relating what I =
have heard. Anecdote - This became an issue for me because I was a =
"clutch rider" (head hung in shame). I would sit there at a light with =
my left foot on the clutch and my foot on the brake. After a while I =
began to hear my bearing (an RHP as it turns out) whirring away. So =
when I pulled the tranny for another project, I decided that I should =
get a new bearing and it would not be an RHP. Now was it a crappy =
bearing or a crappy driver that was the issue? These things are hard to =
tease apart. There are now a number of brands out there, but I will =
mention 3. The Koyo bearing was originally designed for a Landcruiser. =
It was larger than the other bearings. Some folks love'em and some =
folks have reporting squealing. It is true that being a larger bearing =
it is going to take more force to overcome inertia and get it spinning. =
There is another bearing that comes highly recommended called KYK. Never =
used one but would because of this recommendation from a source that I =
trust. Gunst has become a dirty name in some quarters of the Triumph =
community. It was hyped as a godsend, and then a few problems were =
mentioned (hard to track down the variables). I will say that the Gust =
bearings are different in that they are meant to contact the clutch at =
all times. I have put one in my car. I don't know what to expect but I =
hope for the best. Finally carriers. Bronze carriers have been =
mentioned as preferred. It makes sense as they are useful in =
circumstances when you have surface movements in that bronze seems to =
resist abrasion and not gall. Mating the carrier to the bearing is a =
precision operation. Most of us should either buy a bearing that is =
mated to the carrier or have a good machine shop do it for you. "Pinned" =
refers to a hardened pin that prevents the bearing carrier from rotating =
on the clutch fork pin. This makes sense to me as we want to gearing to =
rotate and not the carrier. I know folks who have had squealing issue =
without a pin. Again drilling and installing an anti-rotation pin is =
best left to a shop for most of us.
>=20
> "Magic Clutch" Kit - Hype or for real? A word about Charles Runyon. =
Charles Runyon, the former proprietor of the Roadster Factory has =
recently passed away. I won't speak ill of the dead except to =
acknowledge that some folks in our community may have got hurt over some =
of his business practices late in his life. I will say that Charles and =
his company have been for a very long time, real friends and proponents =
of our community. Charles had noticed that there seemed to be a lot of =
clutch issues with our cars and some of these issues no doubt blew back =
on him, when new parts he sold didn't fix the issues (remember these =
problems are hard to tease apart). Being very well connected in the =
community he was able to pull opinions from some of the most =
knowledgeable folks in our hobby and come of with a serious attempt at =
rectifying these clutch issues. Charles realized that the reliability of =
the clutch mechanics was as important as the clutch components =
themselves and pulled together a kit of parts that would significantly =
improve the probability of successful clutch repair. So I think it is =
for real and not hype, that when you do a clutch job you should replace =
everything. It isn't that much more money and it worth the extra effort. =
He also discovered the Sachs clutch. This clutch most resembles the =
original Laycock clutch design. This is the clutch I have used in my =
car. I have gone a bit further and added a feature that allows me to =
lubricate my clutch shaft with a grease gun. If you are interested I can =
tell about this in another post.=20
>=20
> Despite all of these there were still more people than there should =
have been that were reporting clutch issues. A few years back a couple =
of sleuths uncovered the "dowel" bolts. In the parts lists, there are 2 =
special bolts among the many bolts that mate engine the bell housing. =
These are referred to as "dowel bolts". Williams in his book obliquely =
mentions "locating bolts". If the bell housing is misaligned to the =
engine even a little bit, poor clutch performance results. These bolts =
have larger chanks and are located at 2 and 8 O'clock and align the =
transmission to the engine. If you lose these bolts or don't put them in =
first than you can have clutch issues no matter what you do. Many folks =
have installed hardened steel dowels in place of these bolts. =20
>=20
> Hopefully, this summary will help you with your clutch replacement. =
Please excuse the length of it. Many folks referred to different =
aspects of this story, but I thought it would be good to put it all in =
one place.
>=20
> Regards-
> John Cyg
> 70 Damson
> CC52927LO
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
>=20
>=20
> 6pack@autox.team.net
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/6pack
>=20
> Unsubscribe/Manage: =
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/6pack/rrochlin@comcast.net
>=20
--Apple-Mail=_4B74739D-6C65-4351-B1A9-5CC1C6F59238
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
charset=utf-8
<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">John,<div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre"> </span>Wow, that was an excellent =
detailed history of the TR6 clutch, its problems and offered solutions. =
You really lay out the history of the clutch and the machinations of the =
supply chain. Even though I=E2=80=99ve had my TR6 for over 20 =
years I=E2=80=99ve never read so detailed an =
explanation. </div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre"> </span>Antidotally, I=E2=80=99ve had a =
Gunst bearing set up in my car that I got when they first came out and =
have always had a smooth clutch acton and never any kind of issue with =
it. I=E2=80=99m not sure that they sell them anymore =
thought.</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre"> </span>Thanks for taking the time =
John.</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre"> </span>Best,</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"> =
</span>Bob</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre"> </span>=E2=80=9972 TR6</div><div =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Begin forwarded message:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span=
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">John Cyganowski <<a =
href=3D"mailto:janah@att.net"; class=3D"">janah@att.net</a>><br =
class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Re: [6pack] =
Clutch Set Recommendations</b><br class=3D""></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Date: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">June 21, 2021 at 1:21:21 PM =
EDT<br class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span=
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">To: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">"<a =
href=3D"mailto:6pack@autox.team.net"; class=3D"">6pack@autox.team.net</a>" =
<<a href=3D"mailto:6pack@autox.team.net"; =
class=3D"">6pack@autox.team.net</a>><br class=3D""></span></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"ydp4ce06f07yahoo-style-wrap" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><div =
id=3D"ydp4ce06f07yiv3247099730" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"ydp4ce06f07yiv3247099730yahoo-style-wrap" =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, =
sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">"The six =
cylinder car's clutch is not such a happy story and is the Achilles Heel =
of the 6 cylinder cars." So says Roger Williams in his book; <u =
class=3D"">How to Restore Triumph TR5/250 & TR6</u>.</div><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">I =
am not going to reproduce that section of the book here, but I will try =
to de-mystify this area of the car.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">The issues center =
around:</div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">a.) mechanical tolerances/design =
deficiency.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">b.) supersession</div><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">c.) poor documentation</div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">The clutch =
design does not have much allowance for wear & tear. Originally a =
0.75" Master Cylinder was fitted and this worked well but their were =
complaints of "heavy clutch" with this system. During the 1970 model =
year, the master cylinder was changed to a 0.70" unit. This did soften =
up the clutch pressure, but now wear and tear deficiencies of the =
mechanical parts became significant issues causing drag and partial =
clutch disengagement. Bushing wear, clutch fork pin wear , cylinder =
leaks etc. will cause poor performance. </div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">The car =
parts biz is quite dynamic, and companies get sold, go out of business, =
or simply manage the life cycle of their products. Part of this is that =
if they have a slow or small selling item, they look around to see if =
they have another part with greater sales that could be use for the slow =
selling application and they discontinue the part for the slow selling =
application. The original clutch & driven plate were Laycock =
units and worked quite well. But Laycock sold their clutch =
business to LUK. LUK stopped making the TR6 Clutch some time ago. =
Enter Borg & Beck. They offered a clutch for the TR6 that I =
think became a standard. It worked quite well. But in time, they =
saw slow sales for this model and it disappeared from the inventory. =
B&B used colored paint spots to mark their different pressure plates =
- I believe there was a "Yellow-spot" a "Green-Spot" and a =
"Blue-spot". I don't recall which one was used on the TR6, but it =
was discontinued and superceded with one of the other clutches. Should =
be ok right? It fits right? No problem then! Wrong! =
Wrong because one of these clutches was designed for a much heavier =
vehicle (Van). You want a good tight clutch right? Yes, but =
excessive spring pressure is very hard on the thrust washers when the =
clutch is disengaged. Not a good situation. Also it increases =
pressure on the clutch fork pin and can break it. Anyone who has ever =
had a broken clutch fork pin knows what a PITA it is. Then B&B was =
sold to Delphi and that product line was rationalized with yet another =
clutch that had "cranked" spring fingers. Another generic parts vendor =
Quinton Hazel also has such a clutch. I have heard mixed reports =
on this type, with some folks reporting squealing and other reporting =
good operation. I can only tell you that their original Laycock =
design was straight fingered. Some of the squealing reports seem to be =
linked with larger throw-out bearings when used with the cranked =
fingered clutches. Now some info about the throw-out =
bearings.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false" class=3D"">The original configuration =
was an RHP bearing on a bronze carrier that was pinned. A while back =
reports came out about premature failures with the RHP bearings. Either =
a bad batch of bearing was made or quality had suffered. It is hard to =
know what happened, because once a part like this gets a "black-eye", =
people move away from them because they are such a pain to change, =
nobody wants to take a chance on it again. I am not saying that =
RHP bearings are good or bad, simply relating what I have heard. =
Anecdote - This became an issue for me because I was a "clutch rider" =
(head hung in shame). I would sit there at a light with my left =
foot on the clutch and my foot on the brake. After a while I began =
to hear my bearing (an RHP as it turns out) whirring away. So when =
I pulled the tranny for another project, I decided that I should get a =
new bearing and it would not be an RHP. Now was it a crappy =
bearing or a crappy driver that was the issue? These things are =
hard to tease apart. There are now a number of brands out there, =
but I will mention 3. The Koyo bearing was originally designed for =
a Landcruiser. It was larger than the other bearings. Some folks =
love'em and some folks have reporting squealing. It is true that =
being a larger bearing it is going to take more force to overcome =
inertia and get it spinning. There is another bearing that comes highly =
recommended called KYK. Never used one but would because of this =
recommendation from a source that I trust. Gunst has become a dirty name =
in some quarters of the Triumph community. It was hyped as a =
godsend, and then a few problems were mentioned (hard to track down the =
variables). I will say that the Gust bearings are different in =
that they are meant to contact the clutch at all times. I have put =
one in my car. I don't know what to expect but I hope for the =
best. Finally carriers. Bronze carriers have been mentioned =
as preferred. It makes sense as they are useful in circumstances when =
you have surface movements in that bronze seems to resist abrasion and =
not gall. Mating the carrier to the bearing is a precision =
operation. Most of us should either buy a bearing that is mated to =
the carrier or have a good machine shop do it for you. "Pinned" refers =
to a hardened pin that prevents the bearing carrier from rotating on the =
clutch fork pin. This makes sense to me as we want to gearing to rotate =
and not the carrier. I know folks who have had squealing issue =
without a pin. Again drilling and installing an anti-rotation pin is =
best left to a shop for most of us.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
data-setdir=3D"false" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
data-setdir=3D"false" class=3D"">"Magic Clutch" Kit - Hype or for =
real? A word about Charles Runyon. Charles Runyon, the former =
proprietor of the Roadster Factory has recently passed away. I =
won't speak ill of the dead except to acknowledge that some folks in our =
community may have got hurt over some of his business practices late in =
his life. I will say that Charles and his company have been for a =
very long time, real friends and proponents of our community. =
Charles had noticed that there seemed to be a lot of clutch issues =
with our cars and some of these issues no doubt blew back on him, when =
new parts he sold didn't fix the issues (remember these problems are =
hard to tease apart). Being very well connected in the community he was =
able to pull opinions from some of the most knowledgeable folks in our =
hobby and come of with a serious attempt at rectifying these clutch =
issues. Charles realized that the reliability of the clutch mechanics =
was as important as the clutch components themselves and pulled together =
a kit of parts that would significantly improve the probability of =
successful clutch repair. So I think it is for real and not hype, =
that when you do a clutch job you should replace everything. It isn't =
that much more money and it worth the extra effort. He also discovered =
the Sachs clutch. This clutch most resembles the original Laycock =
clutch design. This is the clutch I have used in my car. I have =
gone a bit further and added a feature that allows me to lubricate =
my clutch shaft with a grease gun. If you are interested I can tell =
about this in another post. </div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
data-setdir=3D"false" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
data-setdir=3D"false" class=3D"">Despite all of these there were still =
more people than there should have been that were reporting clutch =
issues. A few years back a couple of sleuths uncovered the "dowel" =
bolts. In the parts lists, there are 2 special bolts among the many =
bolts that mate engine the bell housing. These are referred to as =
"dowel bolts". Williams in his book obliquely mentions "locating =
bolts". If the bell housing is misaligned to the engine even a =
little bit, poor clutch performance results. These bolts have larger =
chanks and are located at 2 and 8 O'clock and align the transmission to =
the engine. If you lose these bolts or don't put them in first than you =
can have clutch issues no matter what you do. Many folks have =
installed hardened steel dowels in place of these =
bolts. </div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false" =
class=3D"">Hopefully, this summary will help you with your clutch =
replacement. Please excuse the length of it. Many folks =
referred to different aspects of this story, but I thought it would be =
good to put it all in one place.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
data-setdir=3D"false" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
data-setdir=3D"false" class=3D"">Regards-</div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
data-setdir=3D"false" class=3D"">John Cyg</div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
data-setdir=3D"false" class=3D"">70 Damson</div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
data-setdir=3D"false" =
class=3D"">CC52927LO</div></div></div></div></div></div>__________________=
_____________________________<br class=3D"">Support <a =
href=3D"http://Team.Net"; class=3D"">Team.Net</a> <a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html"; =
class=3D"">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br class=3D"">Suggested =
annual donation $12.96<br class=3D"">Archive: <a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/archive"; =
class=3D"">http://www.team.net/archive</a><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:6pack@autox.team.net"; =
class=3D"">6pack@autox.team.net</a><br =
class=3D"">http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/6pack<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Unsubscribe/Manage: =
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/6pack/rrochlin@comcast.net<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br =
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