Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in

From: Greg Blake via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 13:47:51 -0500

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Here are my setup notes and a few photos from the failed unit.=20

Backlash averaged 0.0055=E2=80=9D measured at 4 locations 90 degrees apart e=
ach. Largest being 0.006 smallest 0.005.=20

Depth from bottom of saddle to top of pinion head 0.726=E2=80=9D.=20

Pictures of gear mesh with this setup.=20

Picture of failed pinion gear.=20

And companion ring gear.=20

I made a hell of a mess.

It looks like I set the pinion too deep into the case by the write ups I=E2=80=
=99ve reviewed. But looking at the gear mess, it looks like I was pretty clo=
se.=20

What do y=E2=80=99all think?

Thanks.=20

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 13, 2018, at 3:45 PM, Michael Porter <[email-masked]> wrote:
>=20
>> On 9/13/2018 4:52 AM, Greg Blake wrote:
>> Speaking of pattern, Chris mentioned that the Bastuck gear sets are Oerli=
kon as opposed to Gleason gears. Apparently they require a different mesh pa=
ttern. Does anyone have a good resource for pictures of the proper mesh patt=
ern for the Oerlikon type gears?  I can not find one. I contacted Bastuck wi=
th no luck there.=20
>>=20
> This might help:
>=20
> https://www.cartechbooks.com/techtips/ring-and-pinion-gear-selection-for-o=
ptimal-performance/
>=20
> Note that in the section on hobbed gears (Oerlikon type), I think the firs=
t photo has the toe and heel conditions reversed in the description, and it l=
ooks to me as if they're using the same set of photos for both types of gear=
 (the hobbed gear has uniform tooth height and the top of the tooth changes t=
hickness from heel to toe, while the milled gear has non-uniform tooth heigh=
t and uniform tooth thickness at the top, but to me, the dimensions of the t=
eeth look the same in both sets of photos).  There's also general recommenda=
tions on break-in.
>=20
> This is the closest I've come to finding a comparison of the meshing of th=
e two types, even if it has errors, and some shortcuts in the descriptions. =
 This, though, is simpler, and might be helpful:
>=20
> http://canadawideparts.com/downloads/dana_tooth_pattern.pdf
>=20
> Truthfully, I don't see much difference in the two sets of examples.  With=
 regard to set-up, the crucial difference in the two types is where optimum t=
ooth thickness occurs in relation to optimum backlash.  One thing that these=
 guides don't say is that hypoid gears, whether with standard helical pinion=
s or worm-gear pinions, don't tolerate lack of backlash.  I once worked in t=
he shipping department of Boston Digital in Massachusetts as a lowly temp ba=
ck in the mid-`80s, and my boss was grumbling about how the company was in t=
rouble and it was going to affect his profit-sharing.  So, what happened?  "=
Big troubles with the fifth-axis on the 5-axis milling machines."  And?  "Th=
ey use a hypoid worm and ring gear to operate it and it's failing early."  A=
nd?  "The engineers don't understand why."  It turned out that they'd set up=
 the ring gear set to zero backlash to eliminate the slop in the gear set be=
cause the encoders they were using couldn't compensate, and, of course, the g=
ears wore     out prematurely, and because none of them had an automotive ba=
ckground, they didn't understand that they'd created the failure themselves t=
hrough bad design.  And, they were Indian, like the rest of management, and t=
he culture in India is that the upper classes are never wrong, so they simpl=
y couldn't acknowledge that they'd created the problem.  The answer was to u=
se absolute measurement such as flexible glass rules (which require no corre=
ction) and add backlash, but I don't know that they ever did that.
>=20
>=20
> Cheers.
> --=20
>=20
>=20
> Michael Porter
> Roswell, NM
>=20
>=20
> Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distanc=
e....

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">Here are my setup notes and a few photos fr=
om the failed unit.&nbsp;<div><br></div><div>Backlash averaged 0.0055=E2=80=9D=
 measured at 4 locations 90 degrees apart each. Largest being 0.006 smallest=
 0.005.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Depth from bottom of saddle to top of=
 pinion head 0.726=E2=80=9D.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Pictures of gear=
 mesh with this setup.&nbsp;</div><div><img src=3D"cid:3E2CACC5-8E00-4B5B-B0=
51-F646A283219F" alt=3D"image1.jpeg" id=3D"3E2CACC5-8E00-4B5B-B051-F646A2832=
19F"><img src=3D"cid:F27986DE-2A18-442A-AF1D-D486D9F1612D" alt=3D"image2.jpe=
g" id=3D"F27986DE-2A18-442A-AF1D-D486D9F1612D"></div><div><br>Picture of fai=
led pinion gear.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div><img src=3D"cid:E27D42DC-9E9=
4-4DEC-93B8-EF080ECC0F87" alt=3D"image3.jpeg" id=3D"E27D42DC-9E94-4DEC-93B8-=
EF080ECC0F87"><br><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">And companion ring gear.&nb=
sp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><img src=3D"cid:DE51EC74-B569-4EEC-A=
C1C-66DB1D425D36" alt=3D"image4.jpeg" id=3D"DE51EC74-B569-4EEC-AC1C-66DB1D42=
5D36"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMai=
lSignature">I made a hell of a mess.</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br=
></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">It looks like I set the pinion too dee=
p into the case by the write ups I=E2=80=99ve reviewed. But looking at the g=
ear mess, it looks like I was pretty close.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailS=
ignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">What do y=E2=80=99all thi=
nk?</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignat=
ure">Thanks.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"=
AppleMailSignature">Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On Sep 13, 2018, at 3:=
45 PM, Michael Porter &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]=
om</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>
 =20
    <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"=
 =20
 =20
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 9/13/2018 4:52 AM, Greg Blake wrote:<b=
r>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:5CDF5BAA-2990-439A-BE02-4A99078222=
[email-masked]">
      <meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-=
8">
      Speaking of pattern, Chris mentioned that the Bastuck gear sets
      are&nbsp;<span style=3D"background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Oer=
likon
        as opposed to Gleason gears. Apparently they require a different
        mesh pattern. Does anyone have a good resource for pictures of
        the proper mesh pattern for the&nbsp;Oerlikon type gears? &nbsp;I ca=
n not
        find one. I contacted Bastuck with no luck there.&nbsp;</span>
      <div><br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    This might help:<br>
    <br>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://www.cartechbooks.com/tech=
tips/ring-and-pinion-gear-selection-for-optimal-performance/">https://www.ca=
rtechbooks.com/techtips/ring-and-pinion-gear-selection-for-optimal-performan=
ce/</a><br>
    <br>
    Note that in the section on hobbed gears (Oerlikon type), I think
    the first photo has the toe and heel conditions reversed in the
    description, and it looks to me as if they're using the same set of
    photos for both types of gear (the hobbed gear has uniform tooth
    height and the top of the tooth changes thickness from heel to toe,
    while the milled gear has non-uniform tooth height and uniform tooth
    thickness at the top, but to me, the dimensions of the teeth look
    the same in both sets of photos).&nbsp; There's also general
    recommendations on break-in.<br>
    <br>
    This is the closest I've come to finding a comparison of the meshing
    of the two types, even if it has errors, and some shortcuts in the
    descriptions.&nbsp; This, though, is simpler, and might be helpful:<br>
    <br>
    <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://canadawideparts.com/do=
wnloads/dana_tooth_pattern.pdf">http://canadawideparts.com/downloads/dana_to=
oth_pattern.pdf</a><br>
    <br>
    Truthfully, I don't see much difference in the two sets of
    examples.&nbsp; With regard to set-up, the crucial difference in the two=

    types is where optimum tooth thickness occurs in relation to optimum
    backlash.&nbsp; One thing that these guides don't say is that hypoid
    gears, whether with standard helical pinions or worm-gear pinions,
    don't tolerate lack of backlash.&nbsp; I once worked in the shipping
    department of Boston Digital in Massachusetts as a lowly temp back
    in the mid-`80s, and my boss was grumbling about how the company was
    in trouble and it was going to affect his profit-sharing.&nbsp; So, what=

    happened?&nbsp; "Big troubles with the fifth-axis on the 5-axis milling
    machines."&nbsp; And?&nbsp; "They use a hypoid worm and ring gear to ope=
rate
    it and it's failing early."&nbsp; And?&nbsp; "The engineers don't unders=
tand
    why."&nbsp; It turned out that they'd set up the ring gear set to zero
    backlash to eliminate the slop in the gear set because the encoders
    they were using couldn't compensate, and, of course, the gears wore
    out prematurely, and because none of them had an automotive
    background, they didn't understand that they'd created the failure
    themselves through bad design.&nbsp; And, they were Indian, like the res=
t
    of management, and the culture in India is that the upper classes
    are never wrong, so they simply couldn't acknowledge that they'd
    created the problem.&nbsp; The answer was to use absolute measurement
    such as flexible glass rules (which require no correction) and add
    backlash, but I don't know that they ever did that.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    Cheers.<br>
    <pre class=3D"moz-signature" cols=3D"72">--=20

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance.=
...</pre>
 =20

</div></blockquote></div></body></html>=

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_______________________________________________
[email-masked]

http://www.fot-racing.com

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot

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---

From: Chris Marx via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 23:43:19 +0200

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Hi,

=20

Backlash is okay. Pinion too deep in the ringgear.

Good to see how thin the ringgear teeth are now.

If the ringgear sits too deep, then the pinion grind on the tooth edge =
which makes them thin.

=20

This is the =E2=80=9Cdrive=E2=80=9D side of the tooth.

Very good to see how the contact is close to the inner side of the =
tooth, as the pinion is too deep.

And the next thing visible, to get the recommended back leash you pulled =
the ring gear out of engagement, visible how high the white color sits =
on the tooth.

I suppose it gave some squeal noises?

=20

Squeal noises of a diff means always: Hey, there is something =
wrong=E2=80=A6.please adjust me.

Squeal on the forward drive =E2=80=93 no go.

Squeal on the off throttle =E2=80=93 if not too loud, permitted.

Cheers

Chris

=20

Von: Fot <[email-masked]> Im Auftrag von Greg Blake via Fot
Gesendet: Sonntag, 16. September 2018 20:48
An: Fot <[email-masked]>
Betreff: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in

=20

=20

Backlash averaged 0.0055=E2=80=9D measured at 4 locations 90 degrees =
apart each. Largest being 0.006 smallest 0.005.=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

I made a hell of a mess.

=20

It looks like I set the pinion too deep into the case by the write ups =
I=E2=80=99ve reviewed. But looking at the gear mess, it looks like I was =
pretty close.=20

=20

=20

Thanks.=20

=20

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 13, 2018, at 3:45 PM, Michael Porter <[email-masked] =

Speaking of pattern, Chris mentioned that the Bastuck gear sets are =
Oerlikon as opposed to Gleason gears. Apparently they require a =
different mesh pattern. Does anyone have a good resource for pictures of =
the proper mesh pattern for the Oerlikon type gears?  I can not find =
one. I contacted Bastuck with no luck there. =20

=20

This might help:

https://www.cartechbooks.com/techtips/ring-and-pinion-gear-selection-for-=
optimal-performance/

Note that in the section on hobbed gears (Oerlikon type), I think the =
first photo has the toe and heel conditions reversed in the description, =
and it looks to me as if they're using the same set of photos for both =
types of gear (the hobbed gear has uniform tooth height and the top of =
the tooth changes thickness from heel to toe, while the milled gear has =
non-uniform tooth height and uniform tooth thickness at the top, but to =
me, the dimensions of the teeth look the same in both sets of photos).  =
There's also general recommendations on break-in.

This is the closest I've come to finding a comparison of the meshing of =
the two types, even if it has errors, and some shortcuts in the =
descriptions.  This, though, is simpler, and might be helpful:

Truthfully, I don't see much difference in the two sets of examples.  =
With regard to set-up, the crucial difference in the two types is where =
optimum tooth thickness occurs in relation to optimum backlash.  One =
thing that these guides don't say is that hypoid gears, whether with =
standard helical pinions or worm-gear pinions, don't tolerate lack of =
backlash.  I once worked in the shipping department of Boston Digital in =
Massachusetts as a lowly temp back in the mid-`80s, and my boss was =
grumbling about how the company was in trouble and it was going to =
affect his profit-sharing.  So, what happened?  "Big troubles with the =
fifth-axis on the 5-axis milling machines."  And?  "They use a hypoid =
worm and ring gear to operate it and it's failing early."  And?  "The =
engineers don't understand why."  It turned out that they'd set up the =
ring gear set to zero backlash to eliminate the slop in the gear set =
because the encoders they were using couldn't compensate, and, of =
course, the gears wore out prematurely, and because none of them had an =
automotive background, they didn't understand that they'd created the =
failure themselves through bad design.  And, they were Indian, like the =
rest of management, and the culture in India is that the upper classes =
are never wrong, so they simply couldn't acknowledge that they'd created =
the problem.  The answer was to use absolute measurement such as =
flexible glass rules (which require no correction) and add backlash, but =
I don't know that they ever did that.

Cheers.

--=20
=20
=20
Michael Porter
Roswell, NM
=20
=20
Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking =
distance....

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vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Backlash is okay. Pinion too deep =
in the ringgear.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Good to see how thin =
the ringgear teeth are now.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>If the ringgear sits too deep, then =
the pinion grind on the tooth edge which makes them =
thin.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>This is the =E2=80=9Cdrive=E2=80=9D =
side of the tooth.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Very good to see how =
the contact is close to the inner side of the tooth, as the pinion is =
too deep.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>And the next thing visible, to get =
the recommended back leash you pulled the ring gear out of engagement, =
visible how high the white color sits on the =
tooth.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I suppose it gave some squeal =
noises?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Squeal noises of a diff means =
always: Hey, there is something wrong=E2=80=A6.please adjust =
me.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Squeal on the forward drive =
=E2=80=93 no go.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Squeal on the off =
throttle =E2=80=93 if not too loud, permitted.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><img width=3D841 height=3D632 =
style=3D'width:8.7604in;height:6.5833in' id=3D"_x0000_i1029" =
src=3D"cid:[email-masked]" =
alt=3Dimage2.jpeg><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Cheers<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Chris<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><di=
v style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>Von:</b> Fot =
&lt;[email-masked]&gt; <b>Im Auftrag von </b>Greg Blake via =
Fot<br><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag, 16. September 2018 20:48<br><b>An:</b> =
Fot &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br><b>Betreff:</b> Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown =
and pinion gear break in<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Here are my =
setup notes and a few photos from the failed =
unit.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Backlash averaged 0.0055=E2=80=9D measured at 4 =
locations 90 degrees apart each. Largest being 0.006 smallest =
0.005.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Depth from bottom of saddle to top of pinion head =
0.726=E2=80=9D.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Pictures of gear mesh with this =
setup.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><img =
width=3D2016 height=3D1512 style=3D'width:21.0in;height:15.75in' =
id=3D"_x0033_E2CACC5-8E00-4B5B-B051-F646A283219F" =
src=3D"cid:[email-masked]" alt=3Dimage1.jpeg><img =
width=3D2016 height=3D1512 style=3D'width:21.0in;height:15.75in' =
id=3DF27986DE-2A18-442A-AF1D-D486D9F1612D =
src=3D"cid:[email-masked]" =
alt=3Dimage2.jpeg><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br>Picture of failed pinion =
gear.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><img width=3D2016 height=3D1512 =
style=3D'width:21.0in;height:15.75in' =
id=3DE27D42DC-9E94-4DEC-93B8-EF080ECC0F87 =
src=3D"cid:[email-masked]" =
alt=3Dimage3.jpeg><o:p></o:p></p><div id=3DAppleMailSignature><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>And companion ring =
gear.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div id=3DAppleMailSignature><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><img width=3D2016 height=3D1512 =
style=3D'width:21.0in;height:15.75in' =
id=3DDE51EC74-B569-4EEC-AC1C-66DB1D425D36 =
src=3D"cid:[email-masked]" =
alt=3Dimage4.jpeg><o:p></o:p></p></div><div id=3DAppleMailSignature><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div =
id=3DAppleMailSignature><p class=3DMsoNormal>I made a hell of a =
mess.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div id=3DAppleMailSignature><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div =
id=3DAppleMailSignature><p class=3DMsoNormal>It looks like I set the =
pinion too deep into the case by the write ups I=E2=80=99ve reviewed. =
But looking at the gear mess, it looks like I was pretty =
close.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div id=3DAppleMailSignature><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div =
id=3DAppleMailSignature><p class=3DMsoNormal>What do y=E2=80=99all =
think?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div id=3DAppleMailSignature><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div =
id=3DAppleMailSignature><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div =
id=3DAppleMailSignature><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div =
id=3DAppleMailSignature><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sent from my =
iPhone<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>On Sep 13, 2018, at 3:45 PM, Michael =
Porter &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On 9/13/2018 4:52 AM, Greg Blake =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Speaking of pattern, Chris mentioned that the Bastuck =
gear sets are&nbsp;Oerlikon as opposed to Gleason gears. Apparently they =
require a different mesh pattern. Does anyone have a good resource for =
pictures of the proper mesh pattern for the&nbsp;Oerlikon type gears? =
&nbsp;I can not find one. I contacted Bastuck with no luck there.&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>This might help:<br><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.cartechbooks.com/techtips/ring-and-pinion-gear-select=
ion-for-optimal-performance/">https://www.cartechbooks.com/techtips/ring-=
and-pinion-gear-selection-for-optimal-performance/</a><br><br>Note that =
in the section on hobbed gears (Oerlikon type), I think the first photo =
has the toe and heel conditions reversed in the description, and it =
looks to me as if they're using the same set of photos for both types of =
gear (the hobbed gear has uniform tooth height and the top of the tooth =
changes thickness from heel to toe, while the milled gear has =
non-uniform tooth height and uniform tooth thickness at the top, but to =
me, the dimensions of the teeth look the same in both sets of =
photos).&nbsp; There's also general recommendations on =
break-in.<br><br>This is the closest I've come to finding a comparison =
of the meshing of the two types, even if it has errors, and some =
shortcuts in the descriptions.&nbsp; This, though, is simpler, and might =
be helpful:<br><br><a =
href=3D"http://canadawideparts.com/downloads/dana_tooth_pattern.pdf">http=
://canadawideparts.com/downloads/dana_tooth_pattern.pdf</a><br><br>Truthf=
ully, I don't see much difference in the two sets of examples.&nbsp; =
With regard to set-up, the crucial difference in the two types is where =
optimum tooth thickness occurs in relation to optimum backlash.&nbsp; =
One thing that these guides don't say is that hypoid gears, whether with =
standard helical pinions or worm-gear pinions, don't tolerate lack of =
backlash.&nbsp; I once worked in the shipping department of Boston =
Digital in Massachusetts as a lowly temp back in the mid-`80s, and my =
boss was grumbling about how the company was in trouble and it was going =
to affect his profit-sharing.&nbsp; So, what happened?&nbsp; &quot;Big =
troubles with the fifth-axis on the 5-axis milling machines.&quot;&nbsp; =
And?&nbsp; &quot;They use a hypoid worm and ring gear to operate it and =
it's failing early.&quot;&nbsp; And?&nbsp; &quot;The engineers don't =
understand why.&quot;&nbsp; It turned out that they'd set up the ring =
gear set to zero backlash to eliminate the slop in the gear set because =
the encoders they were using couldn't compensate, and, of course, the =
gears wore out prematurely, and because none of them had an automotive =
background, they didn't understand that they'd created the failure =
themselves through bad design.&nbsp; And, they were Indian, like the =
rest of management, and the culture in India is that the upper classes =
are never wrong, so they simply couldn't acknowledge that they'd created =
the problem.&nbsp; The answer was to use absolute measurement such as =
flexible glass rules (which require no correction) and add backlash, but =
I don't know that they ever did =
that.<br><br><br>Cheers.<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>-- =
<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>=
<pre>Michael Porter<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Roswell, =
NM<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pr=
e><pre>Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within =
walking =
distance....<o:p></o:p></pre></div></blockquote></div></div></body></html=
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---

From: Greg Blake via Fot <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 17:00:07 -0500

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I meant to say, looking at the gear mesh, I thought I was close. In fact I s=
tarted closer to 0.731 pinion depth and reduced it until I got a better mesh=
 pattern.=20

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 16, 2018, at 1:47 PM, Greg Blake via Fot <[email-masked]> wrote=
:
> Backlash averaged 0.0055=E2=80=9D measured at 4 locations 90 degrees apart=
 each. Largest being 0.006 smallest 0.005.=20
> It looks like I set the pinion too deep into the case by the write ups I=E2=
=80=99ve reviewed. But looking at the gear mess, it looks like I was pretty c=
lose.=20
>>> Speaking of pattern, Chris mentioned that the Bastuck gear sets are Oerl=
ikon as opposed to Gleason gears. Apparently they require a different mesh p=
attern. Does anyone have a good resource for pictures of the proper mesh pat=
tern for the Oerlikon type gears?  I can not find one. I contacted Bastuck w=
ith no luck there.=20
optimal-performance/
>>=20
>> Note that in the section on hobbed gears (Oerlikon type), I think the fir=
st photo has the toe and heel conditions reversed in the description, and it=
 looks to me as if they're using the same set of photos for both types of ge=
ar (the hobbed gear has uniform tooth height and the top of the tooth change=
s thickness from heel to toe, while the milled gear has non-uniform tooth he=
ight and uniform tooth thickness at the top, but to me, the dimensions of th=
e teeth look the same in both sets of photos).  There's also general recomme=
ndations on break-in.
>>=20
>> This is the closest I've come to finding a comparison of the meshing of t=
he two types, even if it has errors, and some shortcuts in the descriptions.=
  This, though, is simpler, and might be helpful:
>> Truthfully, I don't see much difference in the two sets of examples.  Wit=
h regard to set-up, the crucial difference in the two types is where optimum=
 tooth thickness occurs in relation to optimum backlash.  One thing that the=
se guides don't say is that hypoid gears, whether with standard helical pini=
ons or worm-gear pinions, don't tolerate lack of backlash.  I once worked in=
 the shipping department of Boston Digital in Massachusetts as a lowly temp b=
ack in the mid-`80s, and my boss was grumbling about how the company was in t=
rouble and it was going to affect his profit-sharing.  So, what happened?  "=
Big troubles with the fifth-axis on the 5-axis milling machines."  And?  "Th=
ey use a hypoid worm and ring gear to operate it and it's failing early."  A=
nd?  "The engineers don't understand why."  It turned out that they'd set up=
 the ring gear set to zero backlash to eliminate the slop in the gear set be=
cause the encoders they were using couldn't compensate, and, of course, the g=
ears wore out prematurely, and because none of them had an automotive backgr=
ound, they didn't understand that they'd created the failure themselves thro=
ugh bad design.  And, they were Indian, like the rest of management, and the=
 culture in India is that the upper classes are never wrong, so they simply c=
ouldn't acknowledge that they'd created the problem.  The answer was to use a=
bsolute measurement such as flexible glass rules (which require no correctio=
n) and add backlash, but I don't know that they ever did that.
>>=20
>>=20
>> Cheers.
>> --=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Michael Porter
>> Roswell, NM
>>=20
>>=20
>> Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distan=
ce....
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/gblake58tr3@=
icloud.com

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">I meant to say, looking at the gear mesh, I=
 thought I was close. In fact I started closer to 0.731 pinion depth and red=
uced it until I got a better mesh pattern.&nbsp;<br><br><div id=3D"AppleMail=
Signature">Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On Sep 16, 2018, at 1:47 PM, Gr=
eg Blake via Fot &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]=
t</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><meta http-equi=
v=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8">Here are my setup n=
otes and a few photos from the failed unit.&nbsp;<div><br></div><div>Backlas=
h averaged 0.0055=E2=80=9D measured at 4 locations 90 degrees apart each. La=
rgest being 0.006 smallest 0.005.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Depth from b=
ottom of saddle to top of pinion head 0.726=E2=80=9D.&nbsp;</div><div><br></=
div><div>Pictures of gear mesh with this setup.&nbsp;</div><div><img src=3D"=
cid:3E2CACC5-8E00-4B5B-B051-F646A283219F" alt=3D"image1.jpeg" id=3D"3E2CACC5=
-8E00-4B5B-B051-F646A283219F"><img src=3D"cid:F27986DE-2A18-442A-AF1D-D486D9=
F1612D" alt=3D"image2.jpeg" id=3D"F27986DE-2A18-442A-AF1D-D486D9F1612D"></di=
v><div><br>Picture of failed pinion gear.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div><im=
g src=3D"cid:E27D42DC-9E94-4DEC-93B8-EF080ECC0F87" alt=3D"image3.jpeg" id=3D=
"E27D42DC-9E94-4DEC-93B8-EF080ECC0F87"><br><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">An=
d companion ring gear.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><img src=3D=
"cid:DE51EC74-B569-4EEC-AC1C-66DB1D425D36" alt=3D"image4.jpeg" id=3D"DE51EC7=
4-B569-4EEC-AC1C-66DB1D425D36"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br>=
</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">I made a hell of a mess.</div><div id=3D=
"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">It looks like I=
 set the pinion too deep into the case by the write ups I=E2=80=99ve reviewe=
d. But looking at the gear mess, it looks like I was pretty close.&nbsp;</di=
v><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Wh=
at do y=E2=80=99all think?</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><di=
v id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Thanks.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature=
"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br=
>On Sep 13, 2018, at 3:45 PM, Michael Porter &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mdporter@=
dfn.com">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"ci=
te"><div>
 =20
    <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"=
 =20
 =20

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

</div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><=
span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span><a href=
=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a></span><br><span></span=
><br><span><a href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com">http://www.fot-racing.com</=
a></span><br><span></span><br><span>Donate: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/d=
onate.html">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a></span><br><span>Archive: <a h=
ref=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot">http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot<=
/a></span><br><span>Unsubscribe/Manage: <a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mai=
lman/options/fot/[email-masked]">http://autox.team.net/mailman/optio=
ns/fot/[email-masked]</a></span><br><span></span><br><span></span><b=
r></div></blockquote></body></html>=

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