Subject: Re: [TR] Maybe the last lunch

From: Dave MacKay <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 19:18:39 -0500

Jonmac:

Tell us more about those amazing men. They deserve all praise.

However, I think some of the particulars may be a little hazy. There were
only 628 VCs awarded in WW1 and far fewer --- just 181 --- were awarded in
WW2.  Only three men have ever won the VC twice: 2 were surgeons (Arthur
Martin-Leake and Noel Chavasse) and one (Charles Hazlitt Upham) was a
soldier from New Zealand.
   - Chavasse won his first VC during the Boer War. He was killed at
Passchendaele during the action that won him his second VC.
   - Martin-Leake won the VC and Bar in WW1. He died in England in 1953.
   - Upham won his VC and Bar in WW2 and returned to NZ after the war.

The men you met were undoubtedly heroes, but perhaps had not won such
rarified medals.

Best wishes to all.

Dave MacKay
1960 TR3A s/n 68639L
Near Toronto, Canada

>Message: 14
>Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 15:15:35 +0000
>From: John Macartney <[email-masked]>
>To: Jim Henningsen <[email-masked]>
>Cc: [email-masked]
>Subject: Re: [TR] Maybe the last lunch
>Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=utf-8
>
>Jim, very many thanks for your kind words. The Sir John Black policy of
recruiting vets affected all services, not just the RAF in isolation. We
have in the UK an organisation called the Corps of Commissionaires. The
Corps is made up of mostly Serjeants, Colour >Sergeants and Sergeants
Major. They provide reception services to large companies as they have
their own uniforms and they?re always incredibly smart. We had these men
at all reception points throughout the company in the UK, and in
accordance with >the John Black directive issued at the beginning of WW2,
if any ex employee was later re-employed through honourable discharge,
their retirement age would be when they wanted to leave and not at age 65.

>We had three Commissionaires in key locations in Coventry and all of them
were in their late seventies. They were always scrupulously polite,
immaculate in their uniforms and charming conversationalists. I used to
talk to all of them as I was able and apart >from the pleasure of having a
chat, it was an opportunity to study their medal ribbons. All three men
had won the Victoria Cross, our highest award for bravery and the man who
worked the Sales Block reception desk had won it twice! But between all of
>them, anyone with the knowledge of medal ribbons could see they proudly
wore the Victoria Cross, the Mons Star, the Distinguished Service Order,
the Gallipoli medal and the Military Cross, plus the various other general
service and victory medals aka >Pipsqueak and Wilfred. All those men had
done WW1 from start to finish in the desert, in Greece, at sea and the
horrors of trench warfare in France and Belgium. They were always very
quiet but never a day passed without a nod of the head,
> a smile or a friendly greeting. The thing I remember about all of them
was that even after a brief conversation on any subject, you parted
company feeling better for having spoken to them. They were true gentlemen
who had somehow survived the >nightmares of close quarter engagement on
many occasions and amazingly had not been sent mad through what they had
seen or done. Those are the people I remember and respect the most.
>Jonmac
** [email-masked] **

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs  http://www.team.net/archive

---

From: John Macartney <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 12:43:01 +0000

Dave, I can’t tell you any more about the three men I mentioned because I only knew them “in passing” and I saw the man in the Sales block far more than the other two. The sales guy I saw daily and often more than once, but my work took me only very occasionally to Engineering and the Director block where the other two were to be found.
I can’t argue with the data you’ve uncovered and I don’t intend to. All I can say is the VC ribbon is a deep maroon in colour and I believe is usually located closest to the heart and on the top row if medal ribbons amount to more than one row. This is where I remember seeing the ribbon on those men. Now there is always the possibility that a VC ribbon might be mistaken for some other decoration of prestige but that said, a lot of the much older men I worked with who had been in WW2, recognised those pieces of maroon material as VCs and occasionally mentioned them in hushed tones. 
I also recall an overseas visitor coming to collect a new car on one occasion, looking at the Sales block Commissionaire and saying in a rather loud voice, “say, that’s an interesting collection of ribbons ya got there. What are they and how did you get ‘em?” Quick as a flash, one of my older ex service colleagues jumped in and said, “Sir, Sergeant (name) military decorations worn by serving or retired members of His Majesty’s armed services are absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with you, nor is the need for you to know anything further on why they were awarded!”
The man looked more than a little non-plussed and feebly commented such restrictions didn’t apply in his country to which response “well, they do here! I feel you owe this gentleman an apology - and now!”
So, in the final analysis, your research has failed to confirm the existence of the men to whom I refer which is okay. The flip side is not only myself but many others with services background and WW1 and WW2 memories remember them with respect and I dare say no small amount of fondness for who they were and what they may have done.
Happy Christmas everyone

Jonmac

> On 24 Dec 2023, at 00:18, Dave MacKay <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> Jonmac:
> 

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From: auprichard uprichard.net <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 13:06:21 +0000

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On Christmas Eve I thought I'd share my Victoria Cross story.  DISCLAIMER -=
 it has a strong Christian theme.  Don't open it if you are going to be off=
ended.

Andrew Uprichard
Jackson, Michigan

-----Original Message-----
From: Triumphs <[email-masked]> On Behalf Of Dave MacKay
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2023 7:19 PM
To: [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [TR] Maybe the last lunch

Jonmac:

However, I think some of the particulars may be a little hazy. There were o=
nly 628 VCs awarded in WW1 and far fewer --- just 181 --- were awarded in W=
W2.  Only three men have ever won the VC twice: 2 were surgeons (Arthur Mar=
tin-Leake and Noel Chavasse) and one (Charles Hazlitt Upham) was a soldier =
from New Zealand.
   - Chavasse won his first VC during the Boer War. He was killed at Passch=
endaele during the action that won him his second VC.
   - Martin-Leake won the VC and Bar in WW1. He died in England in 1953.
   - Upham won his VC and Bar in WW2 and returned to NZ after the war.

The men you met were undoubtedly heroes, but perhaps had not won such rarif=
ied medals.

Best wishes to all.

Dave MacKay
1960 TR3A s/n 68639L
Near Toronto, Canada

>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=3Dutf-8
>
recruiting vets affected all services, not just the RAF in isolation. We ha=
ve in the UK an organisation called the Corps of Commissionaires. The Corps=
 is made up of mostly Serjeants, Colour >Sergeants and Sergeants Major. The=
y provide reception services to large companies as they have their own unif=
orms and they?re always incredibly smart. We had these men at all reception=
 points throughout the company in the UK, and in accordance with >the John =
Black directive issued at the beginning of WW2, if any ex employee was late=
r re-employed through honourable discharge, their retirement age would be w=
hen they wanted to leave and not at age 65.

>We had three Commissionaires in key locations in Coventry and all of=20
>them
were in their late seventies. They were always scrupulously polite, immacul=
ate in their uniforms and charming conversationalists. I used to talk to al=
l of them as I was able and apart >from the pleasure of having a chat, it w=
as an opportunity to study their medal ribbons. All three men had won the V=
ictoria Cross, our highest award for bravery and the man who worked the Sal=
es Block reception desk had won it twice! But between all of
>them, anyone with the knowledge of medal ribbons could see they proudly
wore the Victoria Cross, the Mons Star, the Distinguished Service Order, th=
e Gallipoli medal and the Military Cross, plus the various other general se=
rvice and victory medals aka >Pipsqueak and Wilfred. All those men had done=
 WW1 from start to finish in the desert, in Greece, at sea and the horrors =
of trench warfare in France and Belgium. They were always very quiet but ne=
ver a day passed without a nod of the head,
> a smile or a friendly greeting. The thing I remember about all of them
was that even after a brief conversation on any subject, you parted company=
 feeling better for having spoken to them. They were true gentlemen who had=
 somehow survived the >nightmares of close quarter engagement on many occas=
ions and amazingly had not been sent mad through what they had seen or done=
. Those are the people I remember and respect the most.

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs  http://www.team.net/archiv=
e

[email-masked]

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From: David Friedlander <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 09:33:13 -0500

--===============7807235522889068859==

--000000000000f704ad060d4254eb
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Great story, Andrew! Thank wand Merry Christmas to all!!!

Dave

On Sun, Dec 24, 2023 at 8:58=E2=80=AFAM auprichard uprichard.net <
[email-masked]> wrote:

> On Christmas Eve I thought I'd share my Victoria Cross story.  DISCLAIMER
> - it has a strong Christian theme.  Don't open it if you are going to be
> offended.
>
> Andrew Uprichard
> Jackson, Michigan
>
> only 628 VCs awarded in WW1 and far fewer --- just 181 --- were awarded i=
n
> their own uniforms and they?re always incredibly smart. We had these men =
at
> all reception points throughout the company in the UK, and in accordance
> with >the John Black directive issued at the beginning of WW2, if any ex
> employee was later re-employed through honourable discharge, their
> retirement age would be when they wanted to leave and not at age 65.
>
> talk to all of them as I was able and apart >from the pleasure of having =
a
> chat, it was an opportunity to study their medal ribbons. All three men h=
ad
> won the Victoria Cross, our highest award for bravery and the man who
> worked the Sales Block reception desk had won it twice! But between all o=
f
> the Gallipoli medal and the Military Cross, plus the various other genera=
l
> company feeling better for having spoken to them. They were true gentleme=
n
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]
>

--000000000000f704ad060d4254eb
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto">Great story, Andrew! Thank wand Merry Christmas to all!!!=
</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Dave</div><div><br><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Dec 24=
, 2023 at 8:58=E2=80=AFAM auprichard <a href=3D"http://uprichard.net">upric=
hard.net</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">auprichard@upr=
ichard.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On Chris=
tmas Eve I thought I&#39;d share my Victoria Cross story.=C2=A0 DISCLAIMER =
- it has a strong Christian theme.=C2=A0 Don&#39;t open it if you are going=
 to be offended.<br>
<br>
Andrew Uprichard<br>
Jackson, Michigan<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Triumphs &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" targe=
t=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; On Behalf Of Dave MacK=
ay<br>
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2023 7:19 PM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">triumphs@a=
utox.team.net</a><br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">johnbmacart=
[email-masked]</a><br>
Subject: Re: [TR] Maybe the last lunch<br>
<br>
Jonmac:<br>
<br>
Tell us more about those amazing men. They deserve all praise.<br>
<br>
However, I think some of the particulars may be a little hazy. There were o=
nly 628 VCs awarded in WW1 and far fewer --- just 181 --- were awarded in W=
W2.=C2=A0 Only three men have ever won the VC twice: 2 were surgeons (Arthu=
r Martin-Leake and Noel Chavasse) and one (Charles Hazlitt Upham) was a sol=
dier from New Zealand.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Chavasse won his first VC during the Boer War. He was killed=
 at Passchendaele during the action that won him his second VC.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Martin-Leake won the VC and Bar in WW1. He died in England i=
n 1953.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Upham won his VC and Bar in WW2 and returned to NZ after the=
 war.<br>
<br>
The men you met were undoubtedly heroes, but perhaps had not won such rarif=
ied medals.<br>
<br>
Best wishes to all.<br>
<br>
Dave MacKay<br>
1960 TR3A s/n 68639L<br>
Near Toronto, Canada<br>
<br>
&gt;Message: 14<br>
&gt;Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 15:15:35 +0000<br>
&gt;From: John Macartney &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" targ=
et=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;To: Jim Henningsen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_=
blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">triump=
[email-masked]</a><br>
&gt;Subject: Re: [TR] Maybe the last lunch<br>
&gt;Message-ID: &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:F3A049BE-87D9-4F13-91A7-1BF15EBBA839@=
gmx.com" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>=
&gt;<br>
&gt;Content-Type: text/plain;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 charset=3Dutf-8<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Jim, very many thanks for your kind words. The Sir John Black policy of=
<br>
recruiting vets affected all services, not just the RAF in isolation. We ha=
ve in the UK an organisation called the Corps of Commissionaires. The Corps=
 is made up of mostly Serjeants, Colour &gt;Sergeants and Sergeants Major. =
They provide reception services to large companies as they have their own u=
niforms and they?re always incredibly smart. We had these men at all recept=
ion points throughout the company in the UK, and in accordance with &gt;the=
 John Black directive issued at the beginning of WW2, if any ex employee wa=
s later re-employed through honourable discharge, their retirement age woul=
d be when they wanted to leave and not at age 65.<br>
<br>
&gt;We had three Commissionaires in key locations in Coventry and all of <b=
r>
&gt;them<br>
were in their late seventies. They were always scrupulously polite, immacul=
ate in their uniforms and charming conversationalists. I used to talk to al=
l of them as I was able and apart &gt;from the pleasure of having a chat, i=
t was an opportunity to study their medal ribbons. All three men had won th=
e Victoria Cross, our highest award for bravery and the man who worked the =
Sales Block reception desk had won it twice! But between all of<br>
&gt;them, anyone with the knowledge of medal ribbons could see they proudly=
<br>
wore the Victoria Cross, the Mons Star, the Distinguished Service Order, th=
e Gallipoli medal and the Military Cross, plus the various other general se=
rvice and victory medals aka &gt;Pipsqueak and Wilfred. All those men had d=
one WW1 from start to finish in the desert, in Greece, at sea and the horro=
rs of trench warfare in France and Belgium. They were always very quiet but=
 never a day passed without a nod of the head,<br>
&gt; a smile or a friendly greeting. The thing I remember about all of them=
<br>
was that even after a brief conversation on any subject, you parted company=
 feeling better for having spoken to them. They were true gentlemen who had=
 somehow survived the &gt;nightmares of close quarter engagement on many oc=
casions and amazingly had not been sent mad through what they had seen or d=
one. Those are the people I remember and respect the most.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Jonmac<br>
** <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">triumphs@au=
tox.team.net</a> **<br>
<br>
et=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs" rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs</a>=C2=A0 <a h=
ref=3D"http://www.team.net/archive" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tp://www.team.net/archive</a><br>
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hs/[email-masked]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://au=
tox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]</a><br>
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tox.team.net</a> **<br>
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Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs" rel=3D"noreferr=
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</blockquote></div></div>

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From: Dave MacKay <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 09:35:17 -0500

A lovely story. Thank-you for sharing it.

Dave MacKay
1960 TR3A s/n 68639L
near Toronto, Canada

-----Original Message-----
>From: auprichard uprichard.net <[email-masked]>
>Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2023 8:06 AM
>To: Dave MacKay <[email-masked]>; [email-masked]
>Subject: RE: [TR] Maybe the last lunch
>