Subject: Re: [TR] Advice on high compression head

From: "Alex & Janet Thomson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 17:31:01 -0400

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Can you get shorter push rods to make up for the thinner head?

Alex Thomson

From: Triumphs [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Cliff
Hansen
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2021 5:24 PM
To: list Triumph
Subject: [TR] Advice on high compression head

The telenovela "What's going on with this 4A cylinder head" has developed a
new plot twist.

The head, after cleanup, measures 3.21" from bottom to the surface for the
valve cover gasket. Stock is 3.330 (if I got the number correctly). Some PO
cut 0.11 off, because only 0.010" was removed in this round of clean up. Now
I can see an explanation for the persistent pinging I've dealt with over the
last few years (head has been milled so compression is high, material near
intake valves has been thinned, increasing likelihood of hot spots - I'm
getting this from Kastner's preparation book), which I had thought was due
to leaking intakes, carb shafts, or operating at higher altitude.

As is, I can't use this head because there is not enough slack in the valve
train to give 0.010" clearance on several valves. I didn't notice before,
but now that I am looking, all the valve adjusters were nearly backed out
all the way.

Looking for advice from the list: is there any reasonable way to use this
head?

- I'd prefer to reduce compression but don't see any reasonable way to
accomplish that. I called GasketWorks and he gently discouraged me from
getting a custom thick head gasket, saying instead I'd be better off finding
a head which had not been milled so much. 

 - Shimming the rocker pedestals to get valve clearance feels like a bandaid
which certainly won't address the pinging (assuming that the pinging is a
result of the shortened head).

Would appreciate any advice on the way forward.

Cliff

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for Windows
10

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vlink=3D"#954F72" style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Can you get shorter push rods =
to make up for the thinner head?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Alex =
Thomson<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div=
><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Triumphs [mailto:[email-masked]] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>Cliff Hansen<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 07, 2021 5:24 =
PM<br><b>To:</b> list Triumph<br><b>Subject:</b> [TR] Advice on high =
compression head<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The =
telenovela &#8220;What&#8217;s going on with this 4A cylinder =
head&#8221; has developed a new plot twist.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The head, =
after cleanup, measures 3.21&#8221; from bottom to the surface for the =
valve cover gasket. Stock is 3.330 (if I got the number correctly). Some =
PO cut 0.11 off, because only 0.010&#8221; was removed in this round of =
clean up. Now I can see an explanation for the persistent pinging =
I&#8217;ve dealt with over the last few years (head has been milled so =
compression is high, material near intake valves has been thinned, =
increasing likelihood of hot spots &#8211; I&#8217;m getting this from =
Kastner&#8217;s preparation book), which I had thought was due to =
leaking intakes, carb shafts, or operating at higher =
altitude.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>As is, I can&#8217;t use this head because there is =
not enough slack in the valve train to give 0.010&#8221; clearance on =
several valves. I didn&#8217;t notice before, but now that I am looking, =
all the valve adjusters were nearly backed out all the =
way.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Looking for advice from the list: is there any =
reasonable way to use this head?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>- =
I&#8217;d prefer to reduce compression but don&#8217;t see any =
reasonable way to accomplish that. I called GasketWorks and he gently =
discouraged me from getting a custom thick head gasket, saying instead =
I&#8217;d be better off finding a head which had not been milled so =
much. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;- Shimming the rocker =
pedestals to get valve clearance feels like a bandaid which certainly =
won&#8217;t address the pinging (assuming that the pinging is a result =
of the shortened head).<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Would =
appreciate any advice on the way forward.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Cliff<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sent from <a =
href=3D"https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=3D550986">Mail</a> for =
Windows 10<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>
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** [email-masked] **

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs  http://www.team.net/archive

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---

From: DAVID MASSEY <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 21:39:30 +0000 (UTC)

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 I went the band-aid route on my TR3 for the same reason.=C2=A0 But the rig=
ht way is to get a machinist to shorten the pushrods.=C2=A0 BPNW sells shor=
t rods for the TR6/SC engine but at that time they didn't have any for the =
wet-sleeve engine.
=20
Dave=20

=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Cliff Hansen <[email-masked]>
To: list Triumph <[email-masked]>
Sent: Wed, Apr 7, 2021 4:23 pm
Subject: [TR] Advice on high compression head

 <!--#yiv4309632913 _filtered {} _filtered {}#yiv4309632913 #yiv4309632913 =
p.yiv4309632913MsoNormal, #yiv4309632913 li.yiv4309632913MsoNormal, #yiv430=
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v4309632913MsoChpDefault {} _filtered {}#yiv4309632913 div.yiv4309632913Wor=
dSection1 {}-->The telenovela =E2=80=9CWhat=E2=80=99s going on with this 4A=
 cylinder head=E2=80=9D has developed a new plot twist. =C2=A0 The head, af=
ter cleanup, measures 3.21=E2=80=9D from bottom to the surface for the valv=
e cover gasket. Stock is 3.330 (if I got the number correctly). Some PO cut=
 0.11 off, because only 0.010=E2=80=9D was removed in this round of clean u=
p. Now I can see an explanation for the persistent pinging I=E2=80=99ve dea=
lt with over the last few years (head has been milled so compression is hig=
h, material near intake valves has been thinned, increasing likelihood of h=
ot spots =E2=80=93 I=E2=80=99m getting this from Kastner=E2=80=99s preparat=
ion book), which I had thought was due to leaking intakes, carb shafts, or =
operating at higher altitude.  =C2=A0 As is, I can=E2=80=99t use this head =
because there is not enough slack in the valve train to give 0.010=E2=80=9D=
 clearance on several valves. I didn=E2=80=99t notice before, but now that =
I am looking, all the valve adjusters were nearly backed out all the way. =
=C2=A0 Looking for advice from the list: is there any reasonable way to use=
 this head?- I=E2=80=99d prefer to reduce compression but don=E2=80=99t see=
 any reasonable way to accomplish that. I called GasketWorks and he gently =
discouraged me from getting a custom thick head gasket, saying instead I=E2=
=80=99d be better off finding a head which had not been milled so much. =C2=
=A0- Shimming the rocker pedestals to get valve clearance feels like a band=
aid which certainly won=E2=80=99t address the pinging (assuming that the pi=
nging is a result of the shortened head). =C2=A0 Would appreciate any advic=
e on the way forward. =C2=A0 Cliff =C2=A0 Sent from Mail for Windows 10 =C2=
=A0 ** [email-masked] **

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs  http://www.team.net/archiv=
e

[email-masked]

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<div style=3D"color:black;font: 12pt Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
<div> <font size=3D"3">I went the band-aid route on my TR3 for the same rea=
son.&nbsp; But the right way is to get a machinist to shorten the pushrods.=
&nbsp; BPNW sells short rods for the TR6/SC engine but at that time they di=
dn't have any for the wet-sleeve engine.</font><br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div style=3D"clear:both"><font size=3D"4">Dave </font><br>
<br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black"><font=
 size=3D"2">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Cliff Hansen &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
To: list Triumph &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
Sent: Wed, Apr 7, 2021 4:23 pm<br>
Subject: [TR] Advice on high compression head<br>
<br>

<div id=3D"yiv4309632913">

=20
=20
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<div>

<div class=3D"yiv4309632913WordSection1">

<div class=3D"yiv4309632913MsoNormal">The telenovela =E2=80=9CWhat=E2=80=99=
s going on with this 4A cylinder head=E2=80=9D has developed a new plot twi=
st.</div>

<div class=3D"yiv4309632913MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</div>
=20

<div class=3D"yiv4309632913MsoNormal">The head, after cleanup, measures 3.2=
1=E2=80=9D from bottom to the surface for the valve cover gasket. Stock is =
3.330 (if I got the number correctly). Some PO cut 0.11 off, because only 0=
.010=E2=80=9D was removed in this round of clean up. Now I can see
 an explanation for the persistent pinging I=E2=80=99ve dealt with over the=
 last few years (head has been milled so compression is high, material near=
 intake valves has been thinned, increasing likelihood of hot spots =E2=80=
=93 I=E2=80=99m getting this from Kastner=E2=80=99s preparation book),
 which I had thought was due to leaking intakes, carb shafts, or operating =
at higher altitude.</div>
=20

<div class=3D"yiv4309632913MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</div>
=20

<div class=3D"yiv4309632913MsoNormal">As is, I can=E2=80=99t use this head =
because there is not enough slack in the valve train to give 0.010=E2=80=9D=
 clearance on several valves. I didn=E2=80=99t notice before, but now that =
I am looking, all the valve adjusters were nearly backed out all the way.</=
div>

<div class=3D"yiv4309632913MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</div>
=20

<div class=3D"yiv4309632913MsoNormal">Looking for advice from the list: is =
there any reasonable way to use this head?</div>

<div class=3D"yiv4309632913MsoNormal">- I=E2=80=99d prefer to reduce compre=
ssion but don=E2=80=99t see any reasonable way to accomplish that. I called=
 GasketWorks and he gently discouraged me from getting a custom thick head =
gasket, saying instead I=E2=80=99d be better off finding a head which had
 not been milled so much. </div>

<div class=3D"yiv4309632913MsoNormal">&nbsp;- Shimming the rocker pedestals=
 to get valve clearance feels like a bandaid which certainly won=E2=80=99t =
address the pinging (assuming that the pinging is a result of the shortened=
 head).</div>

<div class=3D"yiv4309632913MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</div>
=20

<div class=3D"yiv4309632913MsoNormal">Would appreciate any advice on the wa=
y forward.</div>

<div class=3D"yiv4309632913MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</div>
=20

<div class=3D"yiv4309632913MsoNormal">Cliff</div>

<div class=3D"yiv4309632913MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</div>
=20

<div class=3D"yiv4309632913MsoNormal">Sent from <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener=
 noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?Lin=
kId=3D550986">
Mail</a> for Windows 10</div>

<div class=3D"yiv4309632913MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</div>
=20
</div>

</div>

</div>
** <a ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" href=3D"mailto:triumphs@au=
tox.team.net">[email-masked]</a> **<br>
<br>
//www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs" target=3D"_blan=
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ons/triumphs/[email-masked]</a><br>
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From: Dave Connitt <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 18:22:58 -0400

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	charset=utf-8
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Hi Cliff,
A lot of racers have milled the heads of wet liner engines to increase compr=
ession. In Kas Kastner=E2=80=99s TR4/TR4A competition preparation manual, he=
 goes into much detail about how to reshape the combustion chambers in the h=
ead to reduce/eliminate =E2=80=9Chot spots=E2=80=9D. This may be the cause o=
f your pre-ignition. Yoy may want to get that book and read over his cylinde=
r head chapter. Regarding the push rod length, the length reduction is direc=
tly related to how much material is removed from the head so just buying sho=
rtened pushrods won=E2=80=99t get you the best results. I think you should f=
igure out how much material was removed from the =E2=80=9Cstock=E2=80=9D hea=
d and shorten the pushrods accordingly.=20
I think you can certainly save the head but you will need to do some homewor=
k reading over Kas=E2=80=99s competition prep manual and find a good automot=
ive machinist for the pushrods.
Dave Connitt=20

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 7, 2021, at 5:41 PM, DAVID MASSEY <[email-masked]> wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF
> I went the band-aid route on my TR3 for the same reason.  But the right wa=
y is to get a machinist to shorten the pushrods.  BPNW sells short rods for t=
he TR6/SC engine but at that time they didn't have any for the wet-sleeve en=
gine.
> The telenovela =E2=80=9CWhat=E2=80=99s going on with this 4A cylinder head=
=E2=80=9D has developed a new plot twist.
> =20
> The head, after cleanup, measures 3.21=E2=80=9D from bottom to the surface=
 for the valve cover gasket. Stock is 3.330 (if I got the number correctly).=
 Some PO cut 0.11 off, because only 0.010=E2=80=9D was removed in this round=
 of clean up. Now I can see an explanation for the persistent pinging I=E2=80=
=99ve dealt with over the last few years (head has been milled so compressio=
n is high, material near intake valves has been thinned, increasing likeliho=
od of hot spots =E2=80=93 I=E2=80=99m getting this from Kastner=E2=80=99s pr=
eparation book), which I had thought was due to leaking intakes, carb shafts=
, or operating at higher altitude.
> =20
> As is, I can=E2=80=99t use this head because there is not enough slack in t=
he valve train to give 0.010=E2=80=9D clearance on several valves. I didn=E2=
=80=99t notice before, but now that I am looking, all the valve adjusters we=
re nearly backed out all the way.
> =20
> Looking for advice from the list: is there any reasonable way to use this h=
ead?
> - I=E2=80=99d prefer to reduce compression but don=E2=80=99t see any reaso=
nable way to accomplish that. I called GasketWorks and he gently discouraged=
 me from getting a custom thick head gasket, saying instead I=E2=80=99d be b=
etter off finding a head which had not been milled so much.
>  - Shimming the rocker pedestals to get valve clearance feels like a banda=
id which certainly won=E2=80=99t address the pinging (assuming that the ping=
ing is a result of the shortened head).
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
> =20
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
e
>=20
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/dave1ma=
[email-masked]
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs  http://www.team.net/archi=
ve
>=20
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/dconnit=
[email-masked]

--Apple-Mail-0314553D-CECC-4CFC-9A81-D9636C44E8AE
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">Hi Cliff,<div>A lot of racers have milled t=
he heads of wet liner engines to increase compression. In Kas Kastner=E2=80=99=
s TR4/TR4A competition preparation manual, he goes into much detail about ho=
w to reshape the combustion chambers in the head to reduce/eliminate =E2=80=9C=
hot spots=E2=80=9D. This may be the cause of your pre-ignition. Yoy may want=
 to get that book and read over his cylinder head chapter. Regarding the pus=
h rod length, the length reduction is directly related to how much material i=
s removed from the head so just buying shortened pushrods won=E2=80=99t get y=
ou the best results. I think you should figure out how much material was rem=
oved from the =E2=80=9Cstock=E2=80=9D head and shorten the pushrods accordin=
gly.&nbsp;</div><div>I think you can certainly save the head but you will ne=
ed to do some homework reading over Kas=E2=80=99s competition prep manual an=
d find a good automotive machinist for the pushrods.</div><div>Dave Connitt&=
nbsp;<br><br><div dir=3D"ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>=
<blockquote type=3D"cite">On Apr 7, 2021, at 5:41 PM, DAVID MASSEY &lt;dave1=
[email-masked]&gt; wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF
<div style=3D"color:black;font: 12pt Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
<div> <font size=3D"3">I went the band-aid route on my TR3 for the same reas=
on.&nbsp; But the right way is to get a machinist to shorten the pushrods.&n=
bsp; BPNW sells short rods for the TR6/SC engine but at that time they didn'=
t have any for the wet-sleeve engine.</font><br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black"><font s=
ize=3D"2">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Cliff Hansen &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
To: list Triumph &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
Sent: Wed, Apr 7, 2021 4:23 pm<br>
Subject: [TR] Advice on high compression head<br>
<br>

=20
=20
<style><!--
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<div>

<div class=3D"yiv4309632913MsoNormal">The telenovela =E2=80=9CWhat=E2=80=99s=
 going on with this 4A cylinder head=E2=80=9D has developed a new plot twist=
.</div>

<div class=3D"yiv4309632913MsoNormal">The head, after cleanup, measures 3.21=
=E2=80=9D from bottom to the surface for the valve cover gasket. Stock is 3.=
330 (if I got the number correctly). Some PO cut 0.11 off, because only 0.01=
0=E2=80=9D was removed in this round of clean up. Now I can see
 an explanation for the persistent pinging I=E2=80=99ve dealt with over the l=
ast few years (head has been milled so compression is high, material near in=
take valves has been thinned, increasing likelihood of hot spots =E2=80=93 I=
=E2=80=99m getting this from Kastner=E2=80=99s preparation book),
 which I had thought was due to leaking intakes, carb shafts, or operating a=
t higher altitude.</div>
=20

<div class=3D"yiv4309632913MsoNormal">As is, I can=E2=80=99t use this head b=
ecause there is not enough slack in the valve train to give 0.010=E2=80=9D c=
learance on several valves. I didn=E2=80=99t notice before, but now that I a=
m looking, all the valve adjusters were nearly backed out all the way.</div>=

<div class=3D"yiv4309632913MsoNormal">Looking for advice from the list: is t=
here any reasonable way to use this head?</div>

<div class=3D"yiv4309632913MsoNormal">- I=E2=80=99d prefer to reduce compres=
sion but don=E2=80=99t see any reasonable way to accomplish that. I called G=
asketWorks and he gently discouraged me from getting a custom thick head gas=
ket, saying instead I=E2=80=99d be better off finding a head which had
 not been milled so much. </div>

<div class=3D"yiv4309632913MsoNormal">&nbsp;- Shimming the rocker pedestals t=
o get valve clearance feels like a bandaid which certainly won=E2=80=99t add=
ress the pinging (assuming that the pinging is a result of the shortened hea=
d).</div>

<div class=3D"yiv4309632913MsoNormal">Would appreciate any advice on the way=
 forward.</div>

<div class=3D"yiv4309632913MsoNormal">Sent from <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=
=3D550986">
Mail</a> for Windows 10</div>

</div>

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---

From: Greg Lemon <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 17:39:16 -0500

--===============5156308240247346423==

--00000000000081bde005bf699aa0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

If you want to save the head you may be able to lower the compression ratio
a bit by reshaping the combustion chamber.  This is theoretically, I don't
know how much can be removed, Kastner book would be a starting point, but
you would probably want to take out more than that, measure combustion
chamber size, etc.

On Wed, Apr 7, 2021, 5:23 PM Dave Connitt <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Hi Cliff,
> A lot of racers have milled the heads of wet liner engines to increase
> compression. In Kas Kastner=E2=80=99s TR4/TR4A competition preparation ma=
nual, he
> goes into much detail about how to reshape the combustion chambers in the
> head to reduce/eliminate =E2=80=9Chot spots=E2=80=9D. This may be the cau=
se of your
> pre-ignition. Yoy may want to get that book and read over his cylinder he=
ad
> chapter. Regarding the push rod length, the length reduction is directly
> related to how much material is removed from the head so just buying
> shortened pushrods won=E2=80=99t get you the best results. I think you sh=
ould
> figure out how much material was removed from the =E2=80=9Cstock=E2=80=9D=
 head and shorten
> the pushrods accordingly.
> I think you can certainly save the head but you will need to do some
> homework reading over Kas=E2=80=99s competition prep manual and find a go=
od
> automotive machinist for the pushrods.
> Dave Connitt
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> I went the band-aid route on my TR3 for the same reason.  But the right
> way is to get a machinist to shorten the pushrods.  BPNW sells short rods
> for the TR6/SC engine but at that time they didn't have any for the
> wet-sleeve engine.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> The telenovela =E2=80=9CWhat=E2=80=99s going on with this 4A cylinder hea=
d=E2=80=9D has developed
> a new plot twist.
>
> The head, after cleanup, measures 3.21=E2=80=9D from bottom to the surfac=
e for the
> valve cover gasket. Stock is 3.330 (if I got the number correctly). Some =
PO
> cut 0.11 off, because only 0.010=E2=80=9D was removed in this round of cl=
ean up.
> Now I can see an explanation for the persistent pinging I=E2=80=99ve deal=
t with
> over the last few years (head has been milled so compression is high,
> material near intake valves has been thinned, increasing likelihood of ho=
t
> spots =E2=80=93 I=E2=80=99m getting this from Kastner=E2=80=99s preparati=
on book), which I had
> thought was due to leaking intakes, carb shafts, or operating at higher
> altitude.
>
> As is, I can=E2=80=99t use this head because there is not enough slack in=
 the
> valve train to give 0.010=E2=80=9D clearance on several valves. I didn=E2=
=80=99t notice
> before, but now that I am looking, all the valve adjusters were nearly
> backed out all the way.
>
> - I=E2=80=99d prefer to reduce compression but don=E2=80=99t see any reas=
onable way to
> getting a custom thick head gasket, saying instead I=E2=80=99d be better =
off
> finding a head which had not been milled so much.
>  - Shimming the rocker pedestals to get valve clearance feels like a
> bandaid which certainly won=E2=80=99t address the pinging (assuming that =
the
> pinging is a result of the shortened head).
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=3D550986> for
> Windows 10
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]
>

--00000000000081bde005bf699aa0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto">If you want to save the head you may be able to lower the=
 compression ratio a bit by reshaping the combustion chamber.=C2=A0 This is=
 theoretically, I don&#39;t know how much can be removed, Kastner book woul=
d be a starting point, but you would probably want to take out more than th=
at, measure combustion chamber size, etc.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Apr 7, 2021, 5:23 PM Dave =
Connitt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">Hi Cliff,<=
div>A lot of racers have milled the heads of wet liner engines to increase =
compression. In Kas Kastner=E2=80=99s TR4/TR4A competition preparation manu=
al, he goes into much detail about how to reshape the combustion chambers i=
n the head to reduce/eliminate =E2=80=9Chot spots=E2=80=9D. This may be the=
 cause of your pre-ignition. Yoy may want to get that book and read over hi=
s cylinder head chapter. Regarding the push rod length, the length reductio=
n is directly related to how much material is removed from the head so just=
 buying shortened pushrods won=E2=80=99t get you the best results. I think =
you should figure out how much material was removed from the =E2=80=9Cstock=
=E2=80=9D head and shorten the pushrods accordingly.=C2=A0</div><div>I thin=
k you can certainly save the head but you will need to do some homework rea=
ding over Kas=E2=80=99s competition prep manual and find a good automotive =
machinist for the pushrods.</div><div>Dave Connitt=C2=A0<br><br><div dir=3D=
"ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cit=
e">On Apr 7, 2021, at 5:41 PM, DAVID MASSEY &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dave1mass=
[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">[email-masked]</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
>=EF=BB=BF
<div style=3D"color:black;font:12pt Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<div> <font size=3D"3">I went the band-aid route on my TR3 for the same rea=
son.=C2=A0 But the right way is to get a machinist to shorten the pushrods.=
=C2=A0 BPNW sells short rods for the TR6/SC engine but at that time they di=
dn&#39;t have any for the wet-sleeve engine.</font><br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black"><font=
 size=3D"2">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Cliff Hansen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=
=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
To: list Triumph &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_=
blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
Sent: Wed, Apr 7, 2021 4:23 pm<br>
Subject: [TR] Advice on high compression head<br>
<br>

<div id=3D"m_5256231747994726540yiv4309632913">

=20
=20

<div>

<div>

<div>The telenovela =E2=80=9CWhat=E2=80=99s going on with this 4A cylinder =
head=E2=80=9D has developed a new plot twist.</div>

<div> =C2=A0</div>
=20

<div>The head, after cleanup, measures 3.21=E2=80=9D from bottom to the sur=
face for the valve cover gasket. Stock is 3.330 (if I got the number correc=
tly). Some PO cut 0.11 off, because only 0.010=E2=80=9D was removed in this=
 round of clean up. Now I can see
 an explanation for the persistent pinging I=E2=80=99ve dealt with over the=
 last few years (head has been milled so compression is high, material near=
 intake valves has been thinned, increasing likelihood of hot spots =E2=80=
=93 I=E2=80=99m getting this from Kastner=E2=80=99s preparation book),
 which I had thought was due to leaking intakes, carb shafts, or operating =
at higher altitude.</div>
=20

<div> =C2=A0</div>
=20

<div>As is, I can=E2=80=99t use this head because there is not enough slack=
 in the valve train to give 0.010=E2=80=9D clearance on several valves. I d=
idn=E2=80=99t notice before, but now that I am looking, all the valve adjus=
ters were nearly backed out all the way.</div>

<div> =C2=A0</div>
=20

<div>Looking for advice from the list: is there any reasonable way to use t=
his head?</div>

<div>- I=E2=80=99d prefer to reduce compression but don=E2=80=99t see any r=
easonable way to accomplish that. I called GasketWorks and he gently discou=
raged me from getting a custom thick head gasket, saying instead I=E2=80=99=
d be better off finding a head which had
 not been milled so much. </div>

<div>=C2=A0- Shimming the rocker pedestals to get valve clearance feels lik=
e a bandaid which certainly won=E2=80=99t address the pinging (assuming tha=
t the pinging is a result of the shortened head).</div>

<div> =C2=A0</div>
=20

<div>Would appreciate any advice on the way forward.</div>

<div> =C2=A0</div>
=20

<div>Cliff</div>

<div> =C2=A0</div>
=20

<div>Sent from <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer noreferrer" href=3D"h=
ttps://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=3D550986" target=3D"_blank">
Mail</a> for Windows 10</div>

<div> =C2=A0</div>
=20
</div>

</div>

</div>
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ferrer">[email-masked]</a> **<br>
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//www.team.net/archive</a><br>
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hs/[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">http://autox.te=
am.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]</a><br>
</font></div>
</div>
<span>** <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" rel=
=3D"noreferrer">[email-masked]</a> **</span><br><span></span><br><=
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--00000000000081bde005bf699aa0--

--===============5156308240247346423==
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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--===============5156308240247346423==--

---

From: "Jerry Van Vlack" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 18:50:57 -0400

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--===============2745142366289986778==
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0621_01D72BDE.F248A460"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0621_01D72BDE.F248A460
	charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

TSI can make any length you want.

From: DAVID MASSEY=20
Sent: Wednesday, April 7, 2021 5:39 PM
To: [email-masked] ; [email-masked]=20
Subject: Re: [TR] Advice on high compression head

I went the band-aid route on my TR3 for the same reason.  But the right =
way is to get a machinist to shorten the pushrods.  BPNW sells short =
rods for the TR6/SC engine but at that time they didn't have any for the =
wet-sleeve engine.

Dave=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Cliff Hansen <[email-masked]>
To: list Triumph <[email-masked]>
Sent: Wed, Apr 7, 2021 4:23 pm
Subject: [TR] Advice on high compression head

The telenovela =E2=80=9CWhat=E2=80=99s going on with this 4A cylinder =
head=E2=80=9D has developed a new plot twist.

The head, after cleanup, measures 3.21=E2=80=9D from bottom to the =
surface for the valve cover gasket. Stock is 3.330 (if I got the number =
correctly). Some PO cut 0.11 off, because only 0.010=E2=80=9D was =
removed in this round of clean up. Now I can see an explanation for the =
persistent pinging I=E2=80=99ve dealt with over the last few years (head =
has been milled so compression is high, material near intake valves has =
been thinned, increasing likelihood of hot spots =E2=80=93 I=E2=80=99m =
getting this from Kastner=E2=80=99s preparation book), which I had =
thought was due to leaking intakes, carb shafts, or operating at higher =
altitude.

As is, I can=E2=80=99t use this head because there is not enough slack =
in the valve train to give 0.010=E2=80=9D clearance on several valves. I =
didn=E2=80=99t notice before, but now that I am looking, all the valve =
adjusters were nearly backed out all the way.

Looking for advice from the list: is there any reasonable way to use =
this head?
- I=E2=80=99d prefer to reduce compression but don=E2=80=99t see any =
reasonable way to accomplish that. I called GasketWorks and he gently =
discouraged me from getting a custom thick head gasket, saying instead =
I=E2=80=99d be better off finding a head which had not been milled so =
much.=20
- Shimming the rocker pedestals to get valve clearance feels like a =
bandaid which certainly won=E2=80=99t address the pinging (assuming that =
the pinging is a result of the shortened head).

Cliff

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs =

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
** [email-masked] **

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs  =

http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]

------=_NextPart_000_0621_01D72BDE.F248A460
	charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><HEAD></HEAD>
<BODY dir=3Dltr>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">
<DIV>TSI can make any length you want.</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: =
"Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; =
DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style=3D"font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A =
title=[email-masked]>DAVID=20
MASSEY</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, April 7, 2021 5:39 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[email-masked]>[email-masked]</A> ;=20
<A title=[email-masked]>[email-masked]</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TR] Advice on high compression =
head</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: =
"Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; =
DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV style=3D"COLOR: black; FONT: 12pt arial, helvetica, sans-serif">
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>I went the band-aid route on my TR3 for the same =
reason.&nbsp;=20
But the right way is to get a machinist to shorten the pushrods.&nbsp; =
BPNW=20
sells short rods for the TR6/SC engine but at that time they didn't have =
any for=20
the wet-sleeve engine.</FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"CLEAR: both"><FONT size=3D4>Dave </FONT><BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica; COLOR: =
black"><FONT=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Cliff Hansen=20
&lt;[email-masked]&gt;<BR>To: list Triumph=20
&lt;[email-masked]&gt;<BR>Sent: Wed, Apr 7, 2021 4:23 =
pm<BR>Subject:=20
[TR] Advice on high compression head<BR><BR>
<DIV id=3Dyiv4309632913>
<STYLE><!--
#yiv4309632913 =20
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#yiv4309632913 a:link, #yiv4309632913 span.yiv4309632913msohyperlink
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<DIV>
<DIV class=3Dyiv4309632913WordSection1>
<DIV class=3Dyiv4309632913MsoNormal>The telenovela =
=E2=80=9CWhat=E2=80=99s going on with this 4A=20
cylinder head=E2=80=9D has developed a new plot twist.</DIV>
<DIV class=3Dyiv4309632913MsoNormal>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3Dyiv4309632913MsoNormal>The head, after cleanup, measures =
3.21=E2=80=9D from=20
bottom to the surface for the valve cover gasket. Stock is 3.330 (if I =
got the=20
number correctly). Some PO cut 0.11 off, because only 0.010=E2=80=9D was =
removed in this=20
round of clean up. Now I can see an explanation for the persistent =
pinging I=E2=80=99ve=20
dealt with over the last few years (head has been milled so compression =
is high,=20
material near intake valves has been thinned, increasing likelihood of =
hot spots=20
=E2=80=93 I=E2=80=99m getting this from Kastner=E2=80=99s preparation =
book), which I had thought was due=20
to leaking intakes, carb shafts, or operating at higher altitude.</DIV>
<DIV class=3Dyiv4309632913MsoNormal>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3Dyiv4309632913MsoNormal>As is, I can=E2=80=99t use this head =
because there is=20
not enough slack in the valve train to give 0.010=E2=80=9D clearance on =
several valves.=20
I didn=E2=80=99t notice before, but now that I am looking, all the valve =
adjusters were=20
nearly backed out all the way.</DIV>
<DIV class=3Dyiv4309632913MsoNormal>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3Dyiv4309632913MsoNormal>Looking for advice from the list: is =
there any=20
reasonable way to use this head?</DIV>
<DIV class=3Dyiv4309632913MsoNormal>- I=E2=80=99d prefer to reduce =
compression but don=E2=80=99t=20
see any reasonable way to accomplish that. I called GasketWorks and he =
gently=20
discouraged me from getting a custom thick head gasket, saying instead =
I=E2=80=99d be=20
better off finding a head which had not been milled so much. </DIV>
<DIV class=3Dyiv4309632913MsoNormal>- Shimming the rocker pedestals to =
get valve=20
clearance feels like a bandaid which certainly won=E2=80=99t address the =
pinging=20
(assuming that the pinging is a result of the shortened head).</DIV>
<DIV class=3Dyiv4309632913MsoNormal>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3Dyiv4309632913MsoNormal>Would appreciate any advice on the =
way=20
forward.</DIV>
<DIV class=3Dyiv4309632913MsoNormal>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3Dyiv4309632913MsoNormal>Cliff</DIV>
<DIV class=3Dyiv4309632913MsoNormal>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3Dyiv4309632913MsoNormal>Sent from <A=20
href=3D"https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=3D550986"=20
rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" target=3D_blank>Mail</A> for =
Windows 10</DIV>
<DIV class=3Dyiv4309632913MsoNormal>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>** <A=20
ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</A>=20
**<BR><BR>Donate: <A href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html"=20
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From: Michael Marr <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 23:05:02 +0000

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	boundary="_000_BBDF39A50AFD43E486E1593FF006FC01albiontechnicalcom_"

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From: DAVE HOGYE <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 16:09:57 -0700 (PDT)

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Greg made an excellent suggestion.  You can relieve or bevel the edge next =
to the squish area a lot, if it isn't already.  Basically back to the facto=
ry shape before the milling and then some. =20
I took .125" off my head for racing and got around 10.8 compression after c=
hamber work, and my car will run on 91 pump gas after retarding the timing =
2 degrees.  I mix pump gas and race fuel 50:50 when on track.  I keep race =
gas at home and a gallon or two mixed with pump gas settles any concern abo=
ut detonation with no retarding of the timing for street.
You can see my head work on my restoration and race car build Youtube video=
, starting around 7:50 in the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DUW-cSGzyKXs&t=3D3s
Dave H.=20

>     On 04/07/2021 3:39 PM Greg Lemon <[email-masked]> wrote:
>     =20
>     =20
>     If you want to save the head you may be able to lower the compression=
 ratio a bit by reshaping the combustion chamber.  This is theoretically, I=
 don't know how much can be removed, Kastner book would be a starting point=
, but you would probably want to take out more than that, measure combustio=
n chamber size, etc.
>=20
>     On Wed, Apr 7, 2021, 5:23 PM Dave Connitt < [email-masked] mailto:=
[email-masked] > wrote:
>=20
>         > >         Hi Cliff,
> >         A lot of racers have milled the heads of wet liner engines to i=
ncrease compression. In Kas Kastner=E2=80=99s TR4/TR4A competition preparat=
ion manual, he goes into much detail about how to reshape the combustion ch=
ambers in the head to reduce/eliminate =E2=80=9Chot spots=E2=80=9D. This ma=
y be the cause of your pre-ignition. Yoy may want to get that book and read=
 over his cylinder head chapter. Regarding the push rod length, the length =
reduction is directly related to how much material is removed from the head=
 so just buying shortened pushrods won=E2=80=99t get you the best results. =
I think you should figure out how much material was removed from the =E2=80=
=9Cstock=E2=80=9D head and shorten the pushrods accordingly.=20
> >         I think you can certainly save the head but you will need to do=
 some homework reading over Kas=E2=80=99s competition prep manual and find =
a good automotive machinist for the pushrods.
> >         Dave Connitt=20
> >=20
> >         Sent from my iPhone
> >=20
> >=20
> >             > > > On Apr 7, 2021, at 5:41 PM, DAVID MASSEY < dave1masse=
[email-masked] mailto:[email-masked] > wrote:
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >         > >=20
> >             > > >             I went the band-aid route on my TR3 for t=
he same reason.  But the right way is to get a machinist to shorten the pus=
hrods.  BPNW sells short rods for the TR6/SC engine but at that time they d=
idn't have any for the wet-sleeve engine.
> > >             From: Cliff Hansen <[email-masked] mailto:cliff=
[email-masked] >
> > >             To: list Triumph <[email-masked] mailto:triumphs=
@autox.team.net >
> > >             The telenovela =E2=80=9CWhat=E2=80=99s going on with this=
 4A cylinder head=E2=80=9D has developed a new plot twist.
> > >             =20
> > >             The head, after cleanup, measures 3.21=E2=80=9D from bott=
om to the surface for the valve cover gasket. Stock is 3.330 (if I got the =
number correctly). Some PO cut 0.11 off, because only 0.010=E2=80=9D was re=
moved in this round of clean up. Now I can see an explanation for the persi=
stent pinging I=E2=80=99ve dealt with over the last few years (head has bee=
n milled so compression is high, material near intake valves has been thinn=
ed, increasing likelihood of hot spots =E2=80=93 I=E2=80=99m getting this f=
rom Kastner=E2=80=99s preparation book), which I had thought was due to lea=
king intakes, carb shafts, or operating at higher altitude.
> > >             =20
> > >             As is, I can=E2=80=99t use this head because there is not=
 enough slack in the valve train to give 0.010=E2=80=9D clearance on severa=
l valves. I didn=E2=80=99t notice before, but now that I am looking, all th=
e valve adjusters were nearly backed out all the way.
> > >             =20
> > >             Looking for advice from the list: is there any reasonable=
 way to use this head?
> > >             - I=E2=80=99d prefer to reduce compression but don=E2=80=
=99t see any reasonable way to accomplish that. I called GasketWorks and he=
 gently discouraged me from getting a custom thick head gasket, saying inst=
ead I=E2=80=99d be better off finding a head which had not been milled so m=
uch.
> > >              - Shimming the rocker pedestals to get valve clearance f=
eels like a bandaid which certainly won=E2=80=99t address the pinging (assu=
ming that the pinging is a result of the shortened head).
> > >             Sent from Mail https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=3D=
550986 for Windows 10
> > >             =20
> > >             ** [email-masked] mailto:[email-masked]=
 **
> > >             Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs http://ww=
w.team.net/pipermail/triumphs http://www.team.net/archive
> > >=20
> > >             Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options=
/triumphs/[email-masked]
> > >             ** [email-masked] mailto:[email-masked]=
 **
> > >             Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs   http://=
www.team.net/archive
> > >=20
> > >             Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options=
/triumphs/[email-masked]
> > >=20
> > >         > >         ** [email-masked] mailto:triumphs@autox.=
team.net **
> >         Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs  http://www.tea=
m.net/archive
> >=20
> >         Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/trium=
phs/[email-masked]
>     Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs http://www.team.net/a=
rchive
>=20
>     Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/dl=
[email-masked]

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<!doctype html>
<html>
 <head>=20
  <meta charset=3D"UTF-8">=20
 </head>
 <body>
  <div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; c=
olor: #333333;">
   <span style=3D"font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">Greg made an ex=
cellent suggestion.&nbsp; You can relieve or bevel the edge next to the squ=
ish area a lot, if it isn't already.&nbsp; Basically back to the factory sh=
ape before the milling and then some.&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>
  </div>=20
  <div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; c=
olor: #333333;">
   <span style=3D"font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">I took .125" of=
f my head for racing and got around 10.8 compression after chamber work, an=
d my car will run on 91 pump gas after retarding the timing 2 degrees.&nbsp=
; I mix pump gas and race fuel 50:50 when on track.&nbsp; I keep race gas a=
t home and a gallon or two mixed with pump gas settles any concern about de=
tonation with no retarding of the timing for street.</span>
  </div>=20
  <div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; c=
olor: #333333;">
   <span style=3D"font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">You can see my =
head work on my restoration and race car build Youtube video, starting arou=
nd 7:50 in the video.</span>
  </div>=20
  <div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; c=
olor: #333333;">
   <span style=3D"font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;"><a href=3D"http=
s://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DUW-cSGzyKXs&amp;t=3D3s">https://www.youtube.c=
om/watch?v=3DUW-cSGzyKXs&amp;t=3D3s</a></span>
  </div>=20
  <div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica,arial,sans-serif; c=
olor: #333333;">
   <span style=3D"font-family: helvetica; font-size: 12pt;">Dave H.&nbsp;</=
span>
  </div>=20
  <blockquote type=3D"cite">=20
   <div>
    On 04/07/2021 3:39 PM Greg Lemon &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:
   </div>=20
   <div>
    &nbsp;
   </div>=20
   <div>
    &nbsp;
   </div>=20
   <div dir=3D"auto">
    If you want to save the head you may be able to lower the compression r=
atio a bit by reshaping the combustion chamber.&nbsp; This is theoretically=
, I don't know how much can be removed, Kastner book would be a starting po=
int, but you would probably want to take out more than that, measure combus=
tion chamber size, etc.
   </div>=20
   <br>=20
   <div class=3D"gmail_quote">=20
    <div class=3D"gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">
     On Wed, Apr 7, 2021, 5:23 PM Dave Connitt &lt;
     <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:
    </div>=20
    <blockquote>=20
     <div dir=3D"auto">
      Hi Cliff,=20
      <div>
       A lot of racers have milled the heads of wet liner engines to increa=
se compression. In Kas Kastner=E2=80=99s TR4/TR4A competition preparation m=
anual, he goes into much detail about how to reshape the combustion chamber=
s in the head to reduce/eliminate =E2=80=9Chot spots=E2=80=9D. This may be =
the cause of your pre-ignition. Yoy may want to get that book and read over=
 his cylinder head chapter. Regarding the push rod length, the length reduc=
tion is directly related to how much material is removed from the head so j=
ust buying shortened pushrods won=E2=80=99t get you the best results. I thi=
nk you should figure out how much material was removed from the =E2=80=9Cst=
ock=E2=80=9D head and shorten the pushrods accordingly.&nbsp;
      </div>=20
      <div>
       I think you can certainly save the head but you will need to do some=
 homework reading over Kas=E2=80=99s competition prep manual and find a goo=
d automotive machinist for the pushrods.
      </div>=20
      <div>
       Dave Connitt&nbsp;
       <br>
       <br>=20
       <div dir=3D"ltr">
        Sent from my iPhone
       </div>=20
       <div dir=3D"ltr">
        <br>=20
        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
         On Apr 7, 2021, at 5:41 PM, DAVID MASSEY &lt;
         <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noo=
pener">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:
         <br>
         <br>
        </blockquote>=20
       </div>=20
       <blockquote type=3D"cite">=20
        <div dir=3D"ltr">=20
         <div style=3D"color: black; font: 12pt Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;=
">=20
          <div>
           <span style=3D"font-size: medium;">I went the band-aid route on =
my TR3 for the same reason.&nbsp; But the right way is to get a machinist t=
o shorten the pushrods.&nbsp; BPNW sells short rods for the TR6/SC engine b=
ut at that time they didn't have any for the wet-sleeve engine.</span>
          </div>=20
          <div>
           &nbsp;
          </div>=20
          <div style=3D"clear: both;">
           <span style=3D"font-size: large;">Dave </span>
           <br>
           <br>
          </div>=20
          <div>
           &nbsp;
          </div>=20
          <div>
           &nbsp;
          </div>=20
          <div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica; font-size: 10pt; colo=
r: black;">
           <span style=3D"font-size: small;"><span style=3D"font-size: smal=
l;">-----Original Message-----<br>From: Cliff Hansen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener">cliff_hansen@o=
utlook.com</a>&gt;<br>To: list Triumph &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:triumphs@autox=
.team.net" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener">[email-masked]</a>&g=
t;<br>Sent: Wed, Apr 7, 2021 4:23 pm<br>Subject: [TR] Advice on high compre=
ssion head<br><br></span></span>=20
           <div id=3D"m_5256231747994726540yiv4309632913">=20
            <div>=20
             <div>=20
              <div>
               The telenovela =E2=80=9CWhat=E2=80=99s going on with this 4A=
 cylinder head=E2=80=9D has developed a new plot twist.
              </div>=20
              <div>
               &nbsp;
              </div>=20
              <div>
               The head, after cleanup, measures 3.21=E2=80=9D from bottom =
to the surface for the valve cover gasket. Stock is 3.330 (if I got the num=
ber correctly). Some PO cut 0.11 off, because only 0.010=E2=80=9D was remov=
ed in this round of clean up. Now I can see an explanation for the persiste=
nt pinging I=E2=80=99ve dealt with over the last few years (head has been m=
illed so compression is high, material near intake valves has been thinned,=
 increasing likelihood of hot spots =E2=80=93 I=E2=80=99m getting this from=
 Kastner=E2=80=99s preparation book), which I had thought was due to leakin=
g intakes, carb shafts, or operating at higher altitude.
              </div>=20
              <div>
               &nbsp;
              </div>=20
              <div>
               As is, I can=E2=80=99t use this head because there is not en=
ough slack in the valve train to give 0.010=E2=80=9D clearance on several v=
alves. I didn=E2=80=99t notice before, but now that I am looking, all the v=
alve adjusters were nearly backed out all the way.
              </div>=20
              <div>
               &nbsp;
              </div>=20
              <div>
               Looking for advice from the list: is there any reasonable wa=
y to use this head?
              </div>=20
              <div>
               - I=E2=80=99d prefer to reduce compression but don=E2=80=99t=
 see any reasonable way to accomplish that. I called GasketWorks and he gen=
tly discouraged me from getting a custom thick head gasket, saying instead =
I=E2=80=99d be better off finding a head which had not been milled so much.
              </div>=20
              <div>
               &nbsp;- Shimming the rocker pedestals to get valve clearance=
 feels like a bandaid which certainly won=E2=80=99t address the pinging (as=
suming that the pinging is a result of the shortened head).
              </div>=20
              <div>
               &nbsp;
              </div>=20
              <div>
               Would appreciate any advice on the way forward.
              </div>=20
              <div>
               &nbsp;
              </div>=20
              <div>
               Cliff
              </div>=20
              <div>
               &nbsp;
              </div>=20
              <div>
               Sent from=20
               <a href=3D"https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=3D550986"=
 target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener"> Mail</a> for Windows 10
              </div>=20
              <div>
               &nbsp;
              </div>=20
             </div>=20
            </div>=20
           </div>=20
           <span style=3D"font-size: small;">** <a href=3D"mailto:triumphs@=
autox.team.net" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener">[email-masked]<=
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From: David P <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 17:24:12 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Have a thick gasket made.. Lubbock Gasket and Supply 806-763 2801

On 4/7/2021 4:39 PM, Greg Lemon wrote:
> If you want to save the head you may be able to lower the compression 
> ratio a bit by reshaping the combustion chamber.  This is 
> theoretically, I don't know how much can be removed, Kastner book 
> would be a starting point, but you would probably want to take out 
> more than that, measure combustion chamber size, etc.
>
> On Wed, Apr 7, 2021, 5:23 PM Dave Connitt <[email-masked] 
>
>     Hi Cliff,
>     A lot of racers have milled the heads of wet liner engines to
>     increase compression. In Kas Kastner’s TR4/TR4A competition
>     preparation manual, he goes into much detail about how to reshape
>     the combustion chambers in the head to reduce/eliminate “hot
>     spots”. This may be the cause of your pre-ignition. Yoy may want
>     to get that book and read over his cylinder head chapter.
>     Regarding the push rod length, the length reduction is directly
>     related to how much material is removed from the head so just
>     buying shortened pushrods won’t get you the best results. I think
>     you should figure out how much material was removed from the
>     “stock” head and shorten the pushrods accordingly.
>     I think you can certainly save the head but you will need to do
>     some homework reading over Kas’s competition prep manual and find
>>     On Apr 7, 2021, at 5:41 PM, DAVID MASSEY <[email-masked]
>>
>>     
>>     I went the band-aid route on my TR3 for the same reason.  But the
>>     right way is to get a machinist to shorten the pushrods. BPNW
>>     sells short rods for the TR6/SC engine but at that time they
>>     didn't have any for the wet-sleeve engine.
>>
>>     Dave
>>
>>
>>
>>     From: Cliff Hansen <[email-masked]
>>     To: list Triumph <[email-masked]
>>     The telenovela “What’s going on with this 4A cylinder head” has
>>     developed a new plot twist.
>>     The head, after cleanup, measures 3.21” from bottom to the
>>     surface for the valve cover gasket. Stock is 3.330 (if I got the
>>     number correctly). Some PO cut 0.11 off, because only 0.010” was
>>     removed in this round of clean up. Now I can see an explanation
>>     for the persistent pinging I’ve dealt with over the last few
>>     years (head has been milled so compression is high, material near
>>     intake valves has been thinned, increasing likelihood of hot
>>     spots – I’m getting this from Kastner’s preparation book), which
>>     I had thought was due to leaking intakes, carb shafts, or
>>     operating at higher altitude.
>>     As is, I can’t use this head because there is not enough slack in
>>     the valve train to give 0.010” clearance on several valves. I
>>     didn’t notice before, but now that I am looking, all the valve
>>     Looking for advice from the list: is there any reasonable way to
>>     use this head?
>>     - I’d prefer to reduce compression but don’t see any reasonable
>>     way to accomplish that. I called GasketWorks and he gently
>>     discouraged me from getting a custom thick head gasket, saying
>>     instead I’d be better off finding a head which had not been
>>     milled so much.
>>      - Shimming the rocker pedestals to get valve clearance feels
>>     like a bandaid which certainly won’t address the pinging
>>     (assuming that the pinging is a result of the shortened head).
>>     Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>
>>     for Windows 10
>>
>>     <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
>>     Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs
>>     <http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs>
>>     http://www.team.net/archive <http://www.team.net/archive>
>>
>>     Unsubscribe/Manage:
>>     <http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]>
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>>     Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs
>>     <http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs>
>>     http://www.team.net/archive <http://www.team.net/archive>
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-- 
Porter Custom Bicycles 2909 Arno St. NE Albuquerque, NM. 505-352-1378 My World go here: WWW.PORTERBIKES.COM/

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    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
  </head>
  <body>
    <p>Have a thick gasket made.. Lubbock Gasket and Supply 806-763 2801<br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/7/2021 4:39 PM, Greg Lemon wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAFtw3aYweWOc=4kry-Bi7TKCB_oCRy_+f=[email-masked]">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div dir="auto">If you want to save the head you may be able to
        lower the compression ratio a bit by reshaping the combustion
        chamber.  This is theoretically, I don't know how much can be
        removed, Kastner book would be a starting point, but you would
        probably want to take out more than that, measure combustion
        chamber size, etc.</div>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Apr 7, 2021, 5:23 PM
          Dave Connitt &lt;<a href="mailto:[email-masked]"
            moz-do-not-send="true">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
          .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
          <div dir="auto">Hi Cliff,
            <div>A lot of racers have milled the heads of wet liner
              engines to increase compression. In Kas Kastner’s TR4/TR4A
              competition preparation manual, he goes into much detail
              about how to reshape the combustion chambers in the head
              to reduce/eliminate “hot spots”. This may be the cause of
              your pre-ignition. Yoy may want to get that book and read
              over his cylinder head chapter. Regarding the push rod
              length, the length reduction is directly related to how
              much material is removed from the head so just buying
              shortened pushrods won’t get you the best results. I think
              you should figure out how much material was removed from
              the “stock” head and shorten the pushrods accordingly. </div>
            <div>I think you can certainly save the head but you will
              need to do some homework reading over Kas’s competition
              prep manual and find a good automotive machinist for the
              pushrods.</div>
            <div>Dave Connitt <br>
              <br>
              <div dir="ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div>
              <div dir="ltr"><br>
                <blockquote type="cite">On Apr 7, 2021, at 5:41 PM,
                  DAVID MASSEY &lt;<a href="mailto:[email-masked]"
                    target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                    moz-do-not-send="true">[email-masked]</a>&gt;
                  wrote:<br>
                  <br>
                </blockquote>
              </div>
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <div dir="ltr">
                  <div style="color:black;font:12pt
                    Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
                    <div> <font size="3">I went the band-aid route on
                        my TR3 for the same reason.  But the right way
                        is to get a machinist to shorten the pushrods. 
                        BPNW sells short rods for the TR6/SC engine but
                        at that time they didn't have any for the
                        wet-sleeve engine.</font><br>
                    </div>
                    <div> <br>
                    </div>
                    <div style="clear:both"><font size="4">Dave </font><br>
                      <br>
                    </div>
                    <div> <br>
                    </div>
                    <div> <br>
                    </div>
                    <div
                      style="font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black"><font
                        size="2">-----Original Message-----<br>
                        From: Cliff Hansen &lt;<a
                          href="mailto:[email-masked]"
                          target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
                        To: list Triumph &lt;<a
                          href="mailto:[email-masked]"
                          target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
                        Sent: Wed, Apr 7, 2021 4:23 pm<br>
                        Subject: [TR] Advice on high compression head<br>
                        <br>
                        <div id="m_5256231747994726540yiv4309632913">
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <div>The telenovela “What’s going on with
                                this 4A cylinder head” has developed a
                                new plot twist.</div>
                              <div>  </div>
                              <div>The head, after cleanup, measures
                                3.21” from bottom to the surface for the
                                valve cover gasket. Stock is 3.330 (if I
                                got the number correctly). Some PO cut
                                0.11 off, because only 0.010” was
                                removed in this round of clean up. Now I
                                can see an explanation for the
                                persistent pinging I’ve dealt with over
                                the last few years (head has been milled
                                so compression is high, material near
                                intake valves has been thinned,
                                increasing likelihood of hot spots – I’m
                                getting this from Kastner’s preparation
                                book), which I had thought was due to
                                leaking intakes, carb shafts, or
                                operating at higher altitude.</div>
                              <div>  </div>
                              <div>As is, I can’t use this head because
                                there is not enough slack in the valve
                                train to give 0.010” clearance on
                                several valves. I didn’t notice before,
                                but now that I am looking, all the valve
                                adjusters were nearly backed out all the
                                way.</div>
                              <div>  </div>
                              <div>Looking for advice from the list: is
                                there any reasonable way to use this
                                head?</div>
                              <div>- I’d prefer to reduce compression
                                but don’t see any reasonable way to
                                accomplish that. I called GasketWorks
                                and he gently discouraged me from
                                getting a custom thick head gasket,
                                saying instead I’d be better off finding
                                a head which had not been milled so
                                much. </div>
                              <div> - Shimming the rocker pedestals to
                                get valve clearance feels like a bandaid
                                which certainly won’t address the
                                pinging (assuming that the pinging is a
                                result of the shortened head).</div>
                              <div>  </div>
                              <div>Would appreciate any advice on the
                                way forward.</div>
                              <div>  </div>
                              <div>Cliff</div>
                              <div>  </div>
                              <div>Sent from <a rel="nofollow noopener
                                  noreferrer noreferrer"
                                  href="https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986"
                                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
                                  Mail</a> for Windows 10</div>
                              <div>  </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
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                  <span>** <a href="mailto:[email-masked]"
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    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Porter Custom Bicycles 2909 Arno St. NE Albuquerque, NM. 505-352-1378 My World go here: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://WWW.PORTERBIKES.COM/">WWW.PORTERBIKES.COM/</a></pre>
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---

From: "Jerry Van Vlack" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 19:28:58 -0400

--===============1106137242685961268==
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	charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Cliff

Here is my experience with a milled TR4A head. After a couple of =
millings of the head I ended up somewhere around .110 off the head. I =
had 2 Head Gasket failures one caused by me using the wrong =93modern=94 =
head gasket from Cometic and the second because I failed to re-torque =
the head using an original Payen AE 330 head gasket. However I never had =
pinging issues using the current 93 octane premium fuel. The key here is =
to limit the amount of total timing advance to match the available fuel. =
I have a friend who had a similar amount milled from his head and =
didn=92t have any head gasket issues with the Cometic modern gasket. He =
drove his car much more aggressively than me as well. Can=92t explain =
why.
It=92s also very important that whichever gasket you use, the gasket =
does not protrude into the combustion chamber.  It turned out the =
Cometic I used did and that=92s where it failed.

>From previous email with you I learned you are using the copper =
reproduction Payen 330 head gasket with 86mm liners. In my case I had =
87mm liners. That should work but be certain to re-torque the head after =
a few heat cycles. (I=92ve done that now with the latest install and so =
far all is good) I must also say I have replaced the .110 head with one =
milled only .075 and don=92t really notice much power loss over the .110 =
head. It=92s noted that the Kastner Comp manual only recommends .090 for =
a street engine. I changed heads because most summers I, along with =
several friends take long trips covering several thousand miles and I =
didn=92t want a head gasket failure miles from home. However; I do carry =
a spare head gasket and the tools to change it with me. Good insurance =
as no failures now after close to 6000 miles. Previous to me messing =
with that original milled head at .090 I drove the car for 30+ years and =
many thousands of miles without a failure using a Payen AE330 head =
gasket.

You can make that head work but retard the timing (I run 28 degrees =
total advance) you may need to back it off to less than 28 degrees. =
Re-torque the head more than once.

As for the push rod / valve adjustment issue. Call Ted at TSI and have =
him make a set of pushrods shortened by the amount removed from the head =
and you=92ll have your adjustment issues solved.

Hope this helps.

JVV

From: Cliff Hansen=20
Sent: Wednesday, April 7, 2021 5:23 PM
To: list Triumph=20
Subject: [TR] Advice on high compression head

The telenovela =93What=92s going on with this 4A cylinder head=94 has =
developed a new plot twist.

=20

The head, after cleanup, measures 3.21=94 from bottom to the surface for =
the valve cover gasket. Stock is 3.330 (if I got the number correctly). =
Some PO cut 0.11 off, because only 0.010=94 was removed in this round of =
clean up. Now I can see an explanation for the persistent pinging I=92ve =
dealt with over the last few years (head has been milled so compression =
is high, material near intake valves has been thinned, increasing =
likelihood of hot spots =96 I=92m getting this from Kastner=92s =
preparation book), which I had thought was due to leaking intakes, carb =
shafts, or operating at higher altitude.

=20

As is, I can=92t use this head because there is not enough slack in the =
valve train to give 0.010=94 clearance on several valves. I didn=92t =
notice before, but now that I am looking, all the valve adjusters were =
nearly backed out all the way.

=20

- I=92d prefer to reduce compression but don=92t see any reasonable way =
to accomplish that. I called GasketWorks and he gently discouraged me =
from getting a custom thick head gasket, saying instead I=92d be better =
off finding a head which had not been milled so much.=20

- Shimming the rocker pedestals to get valve clearance feels like a =
bandaid which certainly won=92t address the pinging (assuming that the =
pinging is a result of the shortened head).

=20

=20

Cliff

=20

=20

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<DIV dir=3Dltr>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">
<DIV>Cliff</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Here is my experience with a milled TR4A head. After a couple of =
millings=20
of the head I ended up somewhere around .110 off the head. I had 2 Head =
Gasket=20
failures one caused by me using the wrong =93modern=94 head gasket from =
Cometic and=20
the second because I failed to re-torque the head using an original =
Payen AE 330=20
head gasket. However I never had pinging issues using the current 93 =
octane=20
premium fuel. The key here is to limit the amount of total timing =
advance to=20
match the available fuel. I have a friend who had a similar amount =
milled from=20
his head and didn=92t have any head gasket issues with the Cometic =
modern gasket.=20
He drove his car much more aggressively than me as well. Can=92t explain =

why.</DIV>
<DIV>It=92s also very important that whichever gasket you use, the =
gasket does not=20
protrude into the combustion chamber.&nbsp; It turned out the Cometic I =
used did=20
and that=92s where it failed.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>From previous email with you I learned you are using the copper=20
reproduction Payen 330 head gasket with 86mm liners. In my case I had =
87mm=20
liners. That should work but be certain to re-torque the head after a =
few heat=20
cycles. (I=92ve done that now with the latest install and so far all is =
good) I=20
must also say I have replaced the .110 head with one milled only .075 =
and don=92t=20
really notice much power loss over the .110 head. It=92s noted that the =
Kastner=20
Comp manual only recommends .090 for a street engine. I changed heads =
because=20
most summers I, along with several friends take long trips covering =
several=20
thousand miles and I didn=92t want a head gasket failure miles from =
home. However;=20
I do carry a spare head gasket and the tools to change it with me. Good=20
insurance as no failures now after close to 6000 miles. Previous to me =
messing=20
with that original milled head at .090 I drove the car for 30+ years and =
many=20
thousands of miles without a failure using a Payen AE330 head =
gasket.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>You can make that head work but retard the timing (I run 28 degrees =
total=20
advance) you may need to back it off to less than 28 degrees. Re-torque =
the head=20
more than once.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>As for the push rod / valve adjustment issue. Call Ted at TSI and =
have him=20
make a set of pushrods shortened by the amount removed from the head and =
you=92ll=20
have your adjustment issues solved.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Hope this helps.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>JVV</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: =
"Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; =
DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV><FONT size=3D3 face=3DCalibri></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style=3D"font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
title=[email-masked]>Cliff Hansen</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, April 7, 2021 5:23 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=[email-masked]>list Triumph</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> [TR] Advice on high compression =
head</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: =
"Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; =
DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV class=3DWordSection1>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>The telenovela =93What=92s going on with this 4A =
cylinder head=94=20
has developed a new plot twist.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p></o:p>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>The head, after cleanup, measures 3.21=94 from =
bottom to the=20
surface for the valve cover gasket. Stock is 3.330 (if I got the number=20
correctly). Some PO cut 0.11 off, because only 0.010=94 was removed in =
this round=20
of clean up. Now I can see an explanation for the persistent pinging =
I=92ve dealt=20
with over the last few years (head has been milled so compression is =
high,=20
material near intake valves has been thinned, increasing likelihood of =
hot spots=20
=96 I=92m getting this from Kastner=92s preparation book), which I had =
thought was due=20
to leaking intakes, carb shafts, or operating at higher =
altitude.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p></o:p>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>As is, I can=92t use this head because there is not =
enough=20
slack in the valve train to give 0.010=94 clearance on several valves. I =
didn=92t=20
notice before, but now that I am looking, all the valve adjusters were =
nearly=20
backed out all the way.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p></o:p>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Looking for advice from the list: is there any =
reasonable way=20
to use this head?</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>- I=92d prefer to reduce compression but don=92t =
see any=20
reasonable way to accomplish that. I called GasketWorks and he gently=20
discouraged me from getting a custom thick head gasket, saying instead =
I=92d be=20
better off finding a head which had not been milled so much. </P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>- Shimming the rocker pedestals to get valve =
clearance feels=20
like a bandaid which certainly won=92t address the pinging (assuming =
that the=20
pinging is a result of the shortened head).</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p></o:p>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Would appreciate any advice on the way forward.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p></o:p>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Cliff</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p></o:p>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Sent from <A=20
href=3D"https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=3D550986">Mail</A> for =
Windows=20
10</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p></o:p>&nbsp;</P></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
** [email-masked] **<BR><BR>Donate:=20
http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs&nbsp;=20
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From: Paul Tegler <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 20:35:41 -0400

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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ditto. Validate the issue with minimal work

ptegler

On 4/7/2021 7:24 PM, David P wrote:
>>>     I went the band-aid route on my TR3 for the same reason.  But
>>>     the right way is to get a machinist to shorten the pushrods. 
>>>     BPNW sells short rods for the TR6/SC engine but at that time
>>>     they didn't have any for the wet-sleeve engine.
>>>
>>>     Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     years (head has been milled so compression is high, material
>>>     near intake valves has been thinned, increasing likelihood of
>>>     hot spots – I’m getting this from Kastner’s preparation book),
>>>     which I had thought was due to leaking intakes, carb shafts, or
>>>     As is, I can’t use this head because there is not enough slack
>>>     in the valve train to give 0.010” clearance on several valves. I
>> [email-masked]  **
>>
>> Donate:http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Archive:http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs   http://www.team.net/archive
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]
> -- 
> Porter Custom Bicycles 2909 Arno St. NE Albuquerque, NM. 505-352-1378 My World go here:WWW.PORTERBIKES.COM/
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]

-- 
Paul Tegler
[email-masked]  www.teglerizer.com

--------------88DDB8F9E0BA84D4F6919083
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<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
  </head>
  <body>
    <p>ditto. Validate the issue with minimal work <br>
    </p>
    <p>ptegler<br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/7/2021 7:24 PM, David P wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:[email-masked]">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <p>Have a thick gasket made.. Lubbock Gasket and Supply 806-763
        2801<br>
      </p>
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/7/2021 4:39 PM, Greg Lemon
        wrote:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAFtw3aYweWOc=4kry-Bi7TKCB_oCRy_+f=[email-masked]">
        <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
          charset=UTF-8">
        <div dir="auto">If you want to save the head you may be able to
          lower the compression ratio a bit by reshaping the combustion
          chamber.  This is theoretically, I don't know how much can be
          removed, Kastner book would be a starting point, but you would
          probably want to take out more than that, measure combustion
          chamber size, etc.</div>
        <br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">
          <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Apr 7, 2021, 5:23 PM
            Dave Connitt &lt;<a href="mailto:[email-masked]"
              moz-do-not-send="true">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
          </div>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div dir="auto">Hi Cliff,
              <div>A lot of racers have milled the heads of wet liner
                engines to increase compression. In Kas Kastner’s
                TR4/TR4A competition preparation manual, he goes into
                much detail about how to reshape the combustion chambers
                in the head to reduce/eliminate “hot spots”. This may be
                the cause of your pre-ignition. Yoy may want to get that
                book and read over his cylinder head chapter. Regarding
                the push rod length, the length reduction is directly
                related to how much material is removed from the head so
                just buying shortened pushrods won’t get you the best
                results. I think you should figure out how much material
                was removed from the “stock” head and shorten the
                pushrods accordingly. </div>
              <div>I think you can certainly save the head but you will
                need to do some homework reading over Kas’s competition
                prep manual and find a good automotive machinist for the
                pushrods.</div>
              <div>Dave Connitt <br>
                <br>
                <div dir="ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div>
                <div dir="ltr"><br>
                  <blockquote type="cite">On Apr 7, 2021, at 5:41 PM,
                    DAVID MASSEY &lt;<a href="mailto:[email-masked]"
                      target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                      moz-do-not-send="true">[email-masked]</a>&gt;
                    wrote:<br>
                    <br>
                  </blockquote>
                </div>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div dir="ltr">
                    <div style="color:black;font:12pt
                      Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
                      <div> <font size="3">I went the band-aid route on
                          my TR3 for the same reason.  But the right way
                          is to get a machinist to shorten the
                          pushrods.  BPNW sells short rods for the
                          TR6/SC engine but at that time they didn't
                          have any for the wet-sleeve engine.</font><br>
                      </div>
                      <div> <br>
                      </div>
                      <div style="clear:both"><font size="4">Dave </font><br>
                        <br>
                      </div>
                      <div> <br>
                      </div>
                      <div> <br>
                      </div>
                      <div
                        style="font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black"><font
                          size="2">-----Original Message-----<br>
                          From: Cliff Hansen &lt;<a
                            href="mailto:[email-masked]"
                            target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                            moz-do-not-send="true">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
                          To: list Triumph &lt;<a
                            href="mailto:[email-masked]"
                            target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                            moz-do-not-send="true">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
                          Sent: Wed, Apr 7, 2021 4:23 pm<br>
                          Subject: [TR] Advice on high compression head<br>
                          <br>
                          <div id="m_5256231747994726540yiv4309632913">
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <div>The telenovela “What’s going on
                                  with this 4A cylinder head” has
                                  developed a new plot twist.</div>
                                <div>  </div>
                                <div>The head, after cleanup, measures
                                  3.21” from bottom to the surface for
                                  the valve cover gasket. Stock is 3.330
                                  (if I got the number correctly). Some
                                  PO cut 0.11 off, because only 0.010”
                                  was removed in this round of clean up.
                                  Now I can see an explanation for the
                                  persistent pinging I’ve dealt with
                                  over the last few years (head has been
                                  milled so compression is high,
                                  material near intake valves has been
                                  thinned, increasing likelihood of hot
                                  spots – I’m getting this from
                                  Kastner’s preparation book), which I
                                  had thought was due to leaking
                                  intakes, carb shafts, or operating at
                                  higher altitude.</div>
                                <div>  </div>
                                <div>As is, I can’t use this head
                                  because there is not enough slack in
                                  the valve train to give 0.010”
                                  clearance on several valves. I didn’t
                                  notice before, but now that I am
                                  looking, all the valve adjusters were
                                  nearly backed out all the way.</div>
                                <div>  </div>
                                <div>Looking for advice from the list:
                                  is there any reasonable way to use
                                  this head?</div>
                                <div>- I’d prefer to reduce compression
                                  but don’t see any reasonable way to
                                  accomplish that. I called GasketWorks
                                  and he gently discouraged me from
                                  getting a custom thick head gasket,
                                  saying instead I’d be better off
                                  finding a head which had not been
                                  milled so much. </div>
                                <div> - Shimming the rocker pedestals to
                                  get valve clearance feels like a
                                  bandaid which certainly won’t address
                                  the pinging (assuming that the pinging
                                  is a result of the shortened head).</div>
                                <div>  </div>
                                <div>Would appreciate any advice on the
                                  way forward.</div>
                                <div>  </div>
                                <div>Cliff</div>
                                <div>  </div>
                                <div>Sent from <a rel="nofollow
                                    noopener noreferrer noreferrer"
                                    href="https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986"
                                    target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"> Mail</a> for
                                  Windows 10</div>
                                <div>  </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
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        <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">** <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email-masked]" moz-do-not-send="true">[email-masked]</a> **

Archive: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs</a>  <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.team.net/archive" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.team.net/archive</a>

</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Porter Custom Bicycles 2909 Arno St. NE Albuquerque, NM. 505-352-1378 My World go here: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://WWW.PORTERBIKES.COM/" moz-do-not-send="true">WWW.PORTERBIKES.COM/</a></pre>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">** <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a> **

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Paul Tegler
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.teglerizer.com">www.teglerizer.com</a></pre>
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From: Cliff Hansen <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 03:14:33 +0000

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	boundary="_000_BN6PR14MB14577B7D97F7CAC15DABE844FA749BN6PR14MB1457namp_"

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I appreciate all the advice. This is why I have subscribed to this list for=
 24 years.

I had measured the head height on the car and that figure was not accurate,=
 or my eyeball didn=92t read the scale correctly.

Off the car now and on the bench the head measures 3.180=94 which means it =
has had 0.150=94 cut away.  This is the limit which Kastner describes. The =
chambers have had some radiusing, not as much as is described in Kastner=92=
s book.

Since I=92m not building a race car, and prioritize reliability over perfor=
mance, I think I will look for a different head.

If anyone knows someone looking for a usable head for a race car, perhaps I=
 have what they need.

Oh, and the pushrods are 257mm in length, which is the shorter set sold by =
Revington TR (stock is 260mm).

Cliff

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=3D550986> for Window=
s 10

Sent: Wednesday, April 7, 2021 3:24 PM
Subject: [TR] Advice on high compression head

The telenovela =93What=92s going on with this 4A cylinder head=94 has devel=
oped a new plot twist.

The head, after cleanup, measures 3.21=94 from bottom to the surface for th=
e valve cover gasket. Stock is 3.330 (if I got the number correctly). Some =
PO cut 0.11 off, because only 0.010=94 was removed in this round of clean u=
p. Now I can see an explanation for the persistent pinging I=92ve dealt wit=
h over the last few years (head has been milled so compression is high, mat=
erial near intake valves has been thinned, increasing likelihood of hot spo=
ts =96 I=92m getting this from Kastner=92s preparation book), which I had t=
hought was due to leaking intakes, carb shafts, or operating at higher alti=
tude.

As is, I can=92t use this head because there is not enough slack in the val=
ve train to give 0.010=94 clearance on several valves. I didn=92t notice be=
fore, but now that I am looking, all the valve adjusters were nearly backed=
 out all the way.

Looking for advice from the list: is there any reasonable way to use this h=
ead?
- I=92d prefer to reduce compression but don=92t see any reasonable way to =
accomplish that. I called GasketWorks and he gently discouraged me from get=
ting a custom thick head gasket, saying instead I=92d be better off finding=
 a head which had not been milled so much.
 - Shimming the rocker pedestals to get valve clearance feels like a bandai=
d which certainly won=92t address the pinging (assuming that the pinging is=
 a result of the shortened head).

Cliff

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=3D550986> for Window=
s 10

--_000_BN6PR14MB14577B7D97F7CAC15DABE844FA749BN6PR14MB1457namp_
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
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ak-word">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I appreciate all the advice. This is why I have subs=
cribed to this list for 24 years.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I had measured the head height on the car and that f=
igure was not accurate, or my eyeball didn=92t read the scale correctly.</p=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Off the car now and on the bench the head measures 3=
.180=94 which means it has had 0.150=94 cut away.&nbsp; This is the limit w=
hich Kastner describes. The chambers have had some radiusing, not as much a=
s is described in Kastner=92s book.
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Since I=92m not building a race car, and prioritize =
reliability over performance, I think I will look for a different head.&nbs=
p;
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If anyone knows someone looking for a usable head fo=
r a race car, perhaps I have what they need.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Oh, and the pushrods are 257mm in length, which is t=
he shorter set sold by Revington TR (stock is 260mm).
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Cliff</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sent from <a href=3D"https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink=
/?LinkId=3D550986">
Mail</a> for Windows 10</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div style=3D"mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-top:solid #E1E=
1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0in"><b>From: </b><a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">Cliff Hansen</a><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, April 7, 2021 3:24 PM<br>
<b>To: </b><a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">list Triumph</a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>[TR] Advice on high compression head</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The telenovela =93What=92s going on with this 4A cyl=
inder head=94 has developed a new plot twist.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The head, after cleanup, measures 3.21=94 from botto=
m to the surface for the valve cover gasket. Stock is 3.330 (if I got the n=
umber correctly). Some PO cut 0.11 off, because only 0.010=94 was removed i=
n this round of clean up. Now I can see
 an explanation for the persistent pinging I=92ve dealt with over the last =
few years (head has been milled so compression is high, material near intak=
e valves has been thinned, increasing likelihood of hot spots =96 I=92m get=
ting this from Kastner=92s preparation book),
 which I had thought was due to leaking intakes, carb shafts, or operating =
at higher altitude.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As is, I can=92t use this head because there is not =
enough slack in the valve train to give 0.010=94 clearance on several valve=
s. I didn=92t notice before, but now that I am looking, all the valve adjus=
ters were nearly backed out all the way.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Looking for advice from the list: is there any reaso=
nable way to use this head?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- I=92d prefer to reduce compression but don=92t see=
 any reasonable way to accomplish that. I called GasketWorks and he gently =
discouraged me from getting a custom thick head gasket, saying instead I=92=
d be better off finding a head which had
 not been milled so much. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;- Shimming the rocker pedestals to get valve c=
learance feels like a bandaid which certainly won=92t address the pinging (=
assuming that the pinging is a result of the shortened head).<o:p></o:p></p=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Would appreciate any advice on the way forward.<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Cliff<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sent from <a href=3D"https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink=
/?LinkId=3D550986">
Mail</a> for Windows 10<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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From: Chris Simo <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 21:08:10 -0400

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Bpnw offers shorter push rods for TR6. Maybe tr4s too....

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<div dir="auto">Bpnw offers shorter push rods for TR6. Maybe tr4s too....</div>

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