Subject: Re: [TR] Flat towing a TR3

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 17:06:31 +0000 (UTC)

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plain and simple regardless of who did what in days of old... decide for yo=
urself what makes sense.....spinning the driveshaft without the gears spinn=
ing is rotating the shaft inside the gears at a speed equal to the road whe=
el rotation speed divided by you rear end ratios IE: the turns per mile on =
your speedo face, revolutions every minute at 60 mph.

So example....after 500 miles ~ 8 hrs @ 60mph w/ 3.90 rear roughly 1000revs=
 per mile =3D 1/2 million revolutions of the shaft with no lube! Your mains=
haft sits above the oil level in your tranny. The laygear (cluster gear) si=
ts partially submerged. The oil slung all over the place by the laygear is =
what drips down and lubes the bushes/shaft via spiral grooves in the bushes=
 (not all...some are only drilled weep holes)
I'd be had pressed to believe you are not prematurely wearing away the bush=
es and edges of the gears.=C2=A0 When driven by the engine, the input shaft=
 is always spinning the cluster gear, car moving or not. So oil is being sl=
oshed everywhere.

20-30 miles at under 45-50mph across town..maybe ...but highway no way!. Bu=
t I also reference an instance I know of where a Jeep had jostled into gear=
 while being towed.... and was only found so at the trip destination. You c=
ould only shift between reverse and neutral....and the vehicle could not be=
 moved under it's own power (not a 4WD either so same drive scenario ) The =
engine suffered as well.

pategle

-----Original Message-----
From: DAVE HOGYE <[email-masked]>
To: Art McEwen <[email-masked]>; triumphs <[email-masked]>
Sent: Fri, Mar 29, 2019 5:36 am
Subject: Re: [TR] Flat towing a TR3

Hardy Prentice flat towed his TR3 all over the country for years behind his=
 Jaguar XKE.=C2=A0 Hardy won the SCCA E-production championship in, if I re=
member correctly 1991 after 25 years or so trying.=C2=A0 He is one of our m=
ost important Triumph heros.=C2=A0 Hardy still lives in S.F. and still has =
his TR3 and the E-type.

I believe he disconnected the drive shaft.=C2=A0 If I find more info on tha=
t, I'll share it.

Dave H.

On March 28, 2019 at 12:43 PM Art McEwen <[email-masked]> wrote:=20
=20
I read somewhere where this wasn't possible without disconnecting the drive=
shaft due to, I think, a bearing in the gearbox or O/D that doesn't get lub=
ricated without the gearbox in gear.=C2=A0 =C2=A0But I've also read reports=
 of Kas Kasner and his contemporaries routinely flat towing to the race tra=
ck.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Which is true?=C2=A0 Both?=C2=A0 Neither?=C2=A0 Or is Kas =
forgetting he used to disconnect the driveshaft at the end of the weekend?
I've seen several MGBs (different gearbox design?) and MX5s being flat towe=
d behind RVs, I know the MX5 manual says it's a no-no.
Just wondering.
Art '60 TR3A.** [email-masked] **=20
=20
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs http://www.team.net/archive=
=20
=20
comcast.net=20

** [email-masked] **

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs  http://www.team.net/archiv=
e

verizon.net

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<div style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:b=
lack;"><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;=
color:black;"><br>plain and simple regardless of who did what in days of ol=
d... decide for yourself what makes sense.....spinning the driveshaft witho=
ut the gears spinning is rotating the shaft inside the gears at a speed equ=
al to the road wheel rotation speed divided by you rear end ratios IE: the =
turns per mile on your speedo face, revolutions every minute at 60 mph.<br>=
<br>So example....after 500 miles ~ 8 hrs @ 60mph w/ 3.90 rear roughly 1000=
revs per mile =3D 1/2 million revolutions of the shaft with no lube! Your m=
ainshaft sits above the oil level in your tranny. The laygear (cluster gear=
) sits partially submerged. The oil slung all over the place by the laygear=
 is what drips down and lubes the bushes/shaft via spiral grooves in the bu=
shes (not all...some are only drilled weep holes)<br>I'd be had pressed to =
believe you are not prematurely wearing away the bushes and edges of the ge=
ars.&nbsp; When driven by the engine, the input shaft is always spinning th=
e cluster gear, car moving or not. So oil is being sloshed everywhere.<br><=
br>20-30 miles at under 45-50mph across town..maybe ...but highway no way!.=
 But I also reference an instance I know of where a Jeep had jostled into g=
ear while being towed.... and was only found so at the trip destination. Yo=
u could only shift between reverse and neutral....and the vehicle could not=
 be moved under it's own power (not a 4WD either so same drive scenario ) T=
he engine suffered as well.<br><br>pategle<br><br>-----Original Message----=
-<br>From: DAVE HOGYE &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>To: Art McEwen &lt;amc=
[email-masked]&gt;; triumphs &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>Sent: Fri,=
 Mar 29, 2019 5:36 am<br>Subject: Re: [TR] Flat towing a TR3<br><br></div><=
div id=3D"yiv6205680741"><div><p style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:helvet=
ica, arial, sans-serif;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">Hardy Prentice flat towed hi=
s TR3 all over the country for years behind his Jaguar XKE.&nbsp; Hardy won=
 the SCCA E-production championship in, if I remember correctly 1991 after =
25 years or so trying.&nbsp; He is one of our most important Triumph heros.=
&nbsp; Hardy still lives in S.F. and still has his TR3 and the E-type.</p><=
p style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;color:rg=
b(51, 51, 51);">I believe he disconnected the drive shaft.&nbsp; If I find =
more info on that, I'll share it.</p><p style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family=
:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);">Dave H.</p><blockquot=
e type=3D"cite">On March 28, 2019 at 12:43 PM Art McEwen &lt;amcewen2@cogec=
o.ca&gt; wrote: <div class=3D"yiv6205680741yqt1705840137" id=3D"yiv62056807=
41yqtfd21424"><br clear=3D"none"> <br clear=3D"none">I read somewhere where=
 this wasn't possible without disconnecting the driveshaft due to, I think,=
 a bearing in the gearbox or O/D that doesn't get lubricated without the ge=
arbox in gear.&nbsp; &nbsp;But I've also read reports of Kas Kasner and his=
 contemporaries routinely flat towing to the race track.&nbsp; &nbsp; Which=
 is true?&nbsp; Both?&nbsp; Neither?&nbsp; Or is Kas forgetting he used to =
disconnect the driveshaft at the end of the weekend?<div><br clear=3D"none"=
></div><div>I've seen several MGBs (different gearbox design?) and MX5s bei=
ng flat towed behind RVs, I know the MX5 manual says it's a no-no.</div><di=
v><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>Just wondering.</div><div><br clear=3D"none=
"></div><div>Art '60 TR3A.</div>** [email-masked] ** <br clear=3D"=
none"> <br clear=3D"none">Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html <br clear=
=3D"none">Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs http://www.team.n=
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ass=3D"yiv6205680741yqt1705840137" id=3D"yiv6205680741yqtfd23932"><br clear=
=3D"none"></div></blockquote></div></div><div class=3D"yqt1705840137" id=3D=
"yqtfd72464">** <a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[email-masked]=
" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">trium=
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From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 12:35:15 -0700

> spinning the 
> driveshaft without the gears spinning is rotating the shaft 
> inside the gears at a speed equal to the road wheel rotation 
> speed divided by you rear end ratios IE: the turns per mile 
> on your speedo face, revolutions every minute at 60 mph.

Don't mean to be picky, but the driveshaft rpm is actually road wheel rpm
_times_ the final drive ratio.

Also, the speedometer cable is driven through a substantial reduction (5:2
for TR3), so it turns quite a bit slower than the driveshaft as well.

> So example....after 500 miles ~ 8 hrs @ 60mph w/ 3.90 rear 
> roughly 1000revs per mile = 1/2 million revolutions of the 
> shaft with no lube!

TR3 driveshaft turns approx 3000 revs per mile, 1.5 million revolutions in
500 miles.

(Easy way to verify: check your tach reading at 60 mph in 4th direct.  60
mph is 1 mile per minute, and 4th direct is 1:1, so revs per minute is how
far driveshaft turns per mile.)

All on a tiny bearing that normally only turns in lower gears and neutral,
normally with a generous supply of oil.

I once bought a wrecked TR3A that had apparently been towed with the rear
wheels on the ground.  The tip of the mainshaft was dark blue, indicating to
me that it had been badly overheated and the heat treat ruined.  It had not
failed yet, but it seemed clear to me that it would have failed in the near
future.

Somewhere, I've still got the input shaft, which was also discolored around
that bearing.  It's good for aligning clutch plates, but useless as an input
shaft.

Long time ago, I subscribed to "Motorhome Life" magazine, where this exact
problem was often discussed.  Several imaginative solutions proposed,
including an electric pump that pulled oil from the drain plug and sprayed
it back through the fill plug.  Overfilling was a fairly popular option as I
recall.

I'll also point out that the TR3 is not a particularly good candidate for
flat towing in my experience.  The front suspension has no caster, which
means it doesn't like to follow the side forces when the tow vehicle makes a
turn.  The front bumper supports aren't nearly strong enough to handle that,
even on a TR3A where they tie into the front apron.  

BTDT, burned the T-shirt

If you want to flat tow, you're going to have to make up a tow bar that
reaches back to the frame, and is strong enough to handle the side forces.

Also, I flat-towed a mid-size Chevy for quite a few years.  (It had a FWD
transaxle that lubed with only the output spinning.)  I can't prove cause
and effect; but the "crossmember" in front of the engine broke clear
through.  That car had a lot of flaws, but I never saw another one in the
junkyard with that same failure.

-- Randall

---

From: John Macartney <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 22:36:51 +0000

Quite apart from the mechanical aspects of the car being towed, what are the requirements (state or federal) on the maximum permitted weight a vehicle can legally tow where the “trailer” is unbraked? If it’s a flat tow, the TR’s braking system will be inoperative from the towing vehicle. Throughout Europe it’s 300 kilos which is one helluva lot less than the weight of a TR3 and entirely regardless of the size, weight, power of the tow vehicle. So why not put it on a purpose built trailer with either overrun or electric brakes. Far safer and, dare I say it, a more responsible stance towards other road users. Sermon off.

Jonmac

Sent using a heliograph recovered from Great great Uncle Willie’s tent in a field adjoining the Battle of the Little Bighorn of 1876. Great great Uncle Willie was on holiday at the time and went over to complain about the noise, but some bugger shot him!

> On 29 Mar 2019, at 19:35, Randall <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> 
>> spinning the 
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 17:08:16 -0700

The limit varies by state.  I'm pretty sure it used to be 3500 lbs here in
California (back when I was doing it), but it's apparently been lowered to
1500 lbs (about 700kg, still under the weight of a TR3) now.  But devices to
make the brakes functional in a towed car are readily available (if not
particularly cheap).
https://www.etrailer.com/faq-tow-bar-braking.aspx

-- Randall

> Quite apart from the mechanical aspects of the car being 
> towed, what are the requirements (state or federal) on the 
> maximum permitted weight a vehicle can legally tow where the 
> "trailer" is unbraked?