Subject: Re: [TR] Lead Substitute

From: David P <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2018 12:05:42 -0600

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Guess I'll add another two cents.. as many will recall, a valve job was 
the bread and butter of repair shops (mine included) since the advent of 
unleaded fuel I have not seen a single valve job and valve seat recession

only on a race engine. New chemicals have been added to replace the 
octane boosting and lubricating attributes of lead. Most of what is out 
there as advice is a total myth or marketing BS.. My opinion .

DaveP

On 10/1/2018 11:15 AM, Reihing, Randall S. wrote:
> Checking the web I found that the Red Line lead substitute fuel 
> additive is available through Amazon in 12 ounce bottles to treat 25 
> gallons for close to $17.00, plus shipping, and adds about $.70 per 
> gallon to the cost of whatever octane is selected.
>
> An alternative might be 100 Low Lead, or 100LL, aviation fuel 
> available at almost any airport and add it to the auto fuel. Shell Oil 
> Co.'s web site lists 100LL as having 0.56g/liter of lead per gallon, 
> https://www.shell.com/business-customers/aviation/aviation-fuel/avgas.html, 
>  which is about 560 ppm, or parts per million per gallon. I don't know 
> if one gallon of 100LL could be diluted in today's auto fuel and be 
> enough lead to for a TR3's valve seats.
>
> An alternative might be to use a few gallons of 100LL ($4.75/gallon in 
> Ohio) from time-to-time and maybe (hopefully) enough lead residue 
> would build up to protect the valve seats. Click on this link to see 
> 100LL av gas cost per 
> state.http://www.airnav.com/fuel/greatdeals/long?type=1
>
> Maybe one of the lists math wizards could research how much lead was 
> in auto fuel before it was phased out and determine if 100LL can help.
>
> Sincerely,
> Randall Reihing
> 1959 TR3A
>
>
>
> ** [email-masked] **
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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    <p>Guess I'll add another two cents.. as many will recall, a valve
      job was the bread and butter of repair shops (mine included) since
      the advent of unleaded fuel I have not seen a single valve job and
      valve seat recession</p>
    <p>only on a race engine. New chemicals have been added to replace
      the octane boosting and lubricating attributes of lead. Most of
      what is out there as advice is a total myth or marketing BS.. My
      opinion .</p>
    <p>DaveP<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/1/2018 11:15 AM, Reihing, Randall
      S. wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:[email-masked]">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=windows-1252">
      <style type="text/css" id="owaParaStyle"></style>
      <div style="direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color:
        #000000;font-size: 10pt;">Checking the web I found that the Red
        Line lead substitute fuel additive is available through Amazon
        in 12 ounce bottles to treat 25 gallons for close to $17.00,
        plus shipping, and adds about $.70 per gallon to the cost of
        whatever octane is selected. 
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>An alternative might be 100 Low Lead, or 100LL, aviation
          fuel available at almost any airport and add it to the auto
          fuel. Shell Oil Co.'s web site lists 100LL as having
          0.56g/liter of lead per gallon, <a
href="https://www.shell.com/business-customers/aviation/aviation-fuel/avgas.html"
            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.shell.com/business-customers/aviation/aviation-fuel/avgas.html</a>, <span
            style="font-size: 10pt;"> which is about 560 ppm, or parts
            per million per gallon. I don't know if one gallon of 100LL
            could be diluted in today's auto fuel and be enough lead to
            for a TR3's valve seats. </span></div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>An alternative might be to use a few gallons of 100LL
          ($4.75/gallon in Ohio) from time-to-time and maybe (hopefully)
          enough lead residue would build up to protect the valve seats.
          Click on this link to see 100LL av gas cost per state.<font
            color="#0000ff"> </font><a
            href="http://www.airnav.com/fuel/greatdeals/long?type=1"
            target="_blank" style="font-size: 10pt;"
            moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.airnav.com/fuel/greatdeals/long?type=1</a></div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Maybe one of the lists math wizards could research how much
          lead was in auto fuel before it was phased out and determine
          if 100LL can help.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Sincerely,</div>
        <div>Randall Reihing</div>
        <div>1959 TR3A</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
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Porter Custom Bicycles 2909 Arno St. NE Albuquerque, NM. 505-352-1378 My World go here: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://WWW.PORTERBIKES.COM/">WWW.PORTERBIKES.COM/</a></pre>
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From: "Reihing, Randall S." <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2018 20:59:12 +0000

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I think Dave may have a point. I have not had any problems in older vehicle=
s, or with my TR3A, using 89 octane without a lead substitute, or additive.=
 But, I do not drive that TR3A 15,000 miles per year, the national average =
for daily drivers. Someone who does and whose 60's era vehicle, or even old=
er, that still has original valve train metallurgy may not have the same ou=
tcome.

In my airplane I use 100LL fuel or ethanol free auto fuel. That lack of lea=
d in auto fuel is/was a serious concern for all pilots operating aircraft w=
ith older engines that had FAA permission to use ethanol free auto fuel but=
 whose engines did not have the newer hardened valve seats, and other compo=
nents that eliminated the need for lead.

After I had the engine rebuilt to zero time, in part using Superior Air Par=
ts Millennium cylinder assemblies with hardened valve seats, valves, valve =
stems and updated valve guides, that eliminated any and all lead issues, in=
cluding any concerns regarding excess lead deposits.

Can something like this be done with a TR3 head, or is it prohibitively exp=
ensive?

Sincerely,
Randall Reihing
1959 TR3A

From: Triumphs [[email-masked]] on behalf of David P [frog=
[email-masked]]
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2018 2:05 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [TR] Lead Substitute

Guess I'll add another two cents.. as many will recall, a valve job was the=
 bread and butter of repair shops (mine included) since the advent of unlea=
ded fuel I have not seen a single valve job and valve seat recession

only on a race engine. New chemicals have been added to replace the octane =
boosting and lubricating attributes of lead. Most of what is out there as a=
dvice is a total myth or marketing BS.. My opinion .

DaveP

On 10/1/2018 11:15 AM, Reihing, Randall S. wrote:
Checking the web I found that the Red Line lead substitute fuel additive is=
 available through Amazon in 12 ounce bottles to treat 25 gallons for close=
 to $17.00, plus shipping, and adds about $.70 per gallon to the cost of wh=
atever octane is selected.

An alternative might be 100 Low Lead, or 100LL, aviation fuel available at =
almost any airport and add it to the auto fuel. Shell Oil Co.'s web site li=
sts 100LL as having 0.56g/liter of lead per gallon, https://www.shell.com/b=
usiness-customers/aviation/aviation-fuel/avgas.html<https://urldefense.proo=
fpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.shell.com_business-2Dcustomers_aviation=
_aviation-2Dfuel_avgas.html&d=3DDwMD-g&c=3DheEcP2AsrLOv4XP8e7I9NA&r=3DM9Vli=
1OgG7_7RAFFVpeXHiQAUCpprOLL1VRvWP3OJtI&m=3Dr66tYSNXuHW4PCg5SzjQI-oFFHujZgSr=
VyT9KcNeDNA&s=3Dr78lsQjJ6ovAzk5ReL4vasC3CL4u5QsNeYTcg0wh5RE&e=3D>,  which i=
s about 560 ppm, or parts per million per gallon. I don't know if one gallo=
n of 100LL could be diluted in today's auto fuel and be enough lead to for =
a TR3's valve seats.

An alternative might be to use a few gallons of 100LL ($4.75/gallon in Ohio=
) from time-to-time and maybe (hopefully) enough lead residue would build u=
p to protect the valve seats. Click on this link to see 100LL av gas cost p=
er state. http://www.airnav.com/fuel/greatdeals/long?type=3D1<https://urlde=
fense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.airnav.com_fuel_greatdeals_lon=
g-3Ftype-3D1&d=3DDwMD-g&c=3DheEcP2AsrLOv4XP8e7I9NA&r=3DM9Vli1OgG7_7RAFFVpeX=
HiQAUCpprOLL1VRvWP3OJtI&m=3Dr66tYSNXuHW4PCg5SzjQI-oFFHujZgSrVyT9KcNeDNA&s=
=3DvgDLOtEbOMGRJFozs7F4QcfBpMZMnsMivVVgn09qw5c&e=3D>

Maybe one of the lists math wizards could research how much lead was in aut=
o fuel before it was phased out and determine if 100LL can help.

Sincerely,
Randall Reihing
1959 TR3A

2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.team.net_donate.html&d=3DDwMD-g&c=3DheEcP2AsrLOv4XP8=
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Porter Custom Bicycles 2909 Arno St. NE Albuquerque, NM. 505-352-1378 My Wo=
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<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
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<body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" fpstyle=3D"1" ocsi=3D"0">
<div style=3D"direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size: =
10pt;">I think Dave may have a point. I have not had any problems in older =
vehicles, or with my TR3A, using 89 octane without a lead substitute, or ad=
ditive. But, I do not drive that TR3A
 15,000 miles per year, the national average for daily drivers. Someone who=
 does and whose 60's era vehicle, or even older, that still has original va=
lve train metallurgy may not have the same outcome.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In my airplane I use 100LL fuel or ethanol free auto fuel. That lack o=
f lead in auto fuel is/was a serious concern for all pilots operating aircr=
aft with older engines that had FAA permission to use ethanol free auto fue=
l but whose engines did not have
 the newer hardened valve seats, and other components that eliminated the n=
eed for lead.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>After I had the engine rebuilt to zero time, in part using Superior Ai=
r Parts Millennium cylinder assemblies with hardened valve seats, valves, v=
alve stems and updated valve guides, that eliminated any and all lead issue=
s, including any concerns regarding
 excess lead deposits.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Can something like this be done with a TR3 head, or is it prohibitivel=
y expensive?&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sincerely,</div>
<div>Randall Reihing</div>
<div>1959 TR3A</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b><br>
</b></div>
<div><b>From:</b><span style=3D"font-size: small;"> Triumphs [triumphs-boun=
[email-masked]] on behalf of David P [[email-masked]]</span>
<div style=3D"font-family: Times New Roman; color: #000000; font-size: 16px=
">
<div id=3D"divRpF445770" style=3D"direction: ltr;"><font face=3D"Tahoma" si=
ze=3D"2" color=3D"#000000"><b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 01, 2018 2:05 PM<br=
<b>To:</b> [email-masked]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [TR] Lead Substitute<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p>Guess I'll add another two cents.. as many will recall, a valve job was =
the bread and butter of repair shops (mine included) since the advent of un=
leaded fuel I have not seen a single valve job and valve seat recession</p>
<p>only on a race engine. New chemicals have been added to replace the octa=
ne boosting and lubricating attributes of lead. Most of what is out there a=
s advice is a total myth or marketing BS.. My opinion .</p>
<p>DaveP<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 10/1/2018 11:15 AM, Reihing, Randall S. w=
rote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><style type=3D"text/css" id=3D"owaParaStyle"></st=
yle>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr; font-family:Tahoma; color:#000000; font-size:1=
0pt">Checking the web I found that the Red Line lead substitute fuel additi=
ve is available through Amazon in 12 ounce bottles to treat 25 gallons for =
close to $17.00, plus shipping, and
 adds about $.70 per gallon to the cost of whatever octane is selected.&nbs=
p;
<div><br>
</div>
<div>An alternative might be 100 Low Lead, or 100LL, aviation fuel availabl=
e at almost any airport and add it to the auto fuel. Shell Oil Co.'s web si=
te lists 100LL as having 0.56g/liter of lead per gallon,&nbsp;<a href=3D"ht=
tps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.shell.com_business=
-2Dcustomers_aviation_aviation-2Dfuel_avgas.html&amp;d=3DDwMD-g&amp;c=3DheE=
cP2AsrLOv4XP8e7I9NA&amp;r=3DM9Vli1OgG7_7RAFFVpeXHiQAUCpprOLL1VRvWP3OJtI&amp=
;m=3Dr66tYSNXuHW4PCg5SzjQI-oFFHujZgSrVyT9KcNeDNA&amp;s=3Dr78lsQjJ6ovAzk5ReL=
4vasC3CL4u5QsNeYTcg0wh5RE&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener noref=
errer">https://www.shell.com/business-customers/aviation/aviation-fuel/avga=
s.html</a>,&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size:10pt">&nbsp;which
 is about 560 ppm, or parts per million per gallon. I don't know if one gal=
lon of 100LL could be diluted in today's auto fuel and be enough lead to fo=
r a TR3's valve seats.&nbsp;</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>An alternative might be to use a few gallons of 100LL ($4.75/gallon in=
 Ohio) from time-to-time and maybe (hopefully) enough lead residue would bu=
ild up to protect the valve seats. Click on this link to see 100LL av gas c=
ost per state.<font color=3D"#0000ff">&nbsp;</font><a href=3D"https://urlde=
fense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.airnav.com_fuel_greatdeals_lon=
g-3Ftype-3D1&amp;d=3DDwMD-g&amp;c=3DheEcP2AsrLOv4XP8e7I9NA&amp;r=3DM9Vli1Og=
G7_7RAFFVpeXHiQAUCpprOLL1VRvWP3OJtI&amp;m=3Dr66tYSNXuHW4PCg5SzjQI-oFFHujZgS=
rVyT9KcNeDNA&amp;s=3DvgDLOtEbOMGRJFozs7F4QcfBpMZMnsMivVVgn09qw5c&amp;e=3D" =
style=3D"font-size:10pt" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer">http=
://www.airnav.com/fuel/greatdeals/long?type=3D1</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Maybe one of the lists math wizards could research how much lead was i=
n auto fuel before it was phased out and determine if 100LL can help.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sincerely,</div>
<div>Randall Reihing</div>
<div>1959 TR3A</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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noreferrer">
</fieldset> <br>
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From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2018 20:42:15 -0400

Most people won't have a problem; which is why I always say to see if you
have a problem first.  From what I've read, having been run on leaded fuel
in the past tends to leave a protective layer on the seats, which will
usually prevent recession even on unleaded fuel.

But my TR3 was a "barn find", apparently in the middle of quite a bit of
work but effectively abandoned back in the 70s.  I don't know that much of
the history, but it might have had a valve job (thereby destroying the
protective layer) and then never been run on leaded fuel.  At any rate, it
is the only TR3/A that I've owned, that cared about unleaded.  And as I said
before, installing a different head (also unknown history but no sign of
exhaust seats having been changed) solved the problem.

The hardened seats are not expensive.  There is some extra machine work to
install them, but it doesn't add very much to the overall cost of a valve
job.  I don't recall the delta for the seats, but the entire job, including
new guides, valves, exhaust seats and springs was under $500.

BTW, using 100LL in a car on the street is illegal.  I'm told that most
airports will refuse to dispense it into a can, unless you can prove you own
an aircraft that uses it.  They can also be held liable if you get caught
putting it in your car; so there's no way they are going to pump it in
directly.

I forget the numbers offhand, but even though "LL" stands for "low lead",
100LL contains far more lead then even the old leaded premium.  So it
wouldn't take a lot, maybe only a gallon or two, to treat a tankful of
regular.  But even carrying a few ounces of RLS around is a PITA.  I'm
really not interested in carrying around a couple gallons of avgas just so I
can fill my tank when it runs low.

Those Amazon prices are ridiculously high (something I've noticed more and
more with third party sellers on Amazon).  Shop around, I'm sure you can
find it cheaper than that.  For example, Summit only wants $12/bottle, and
shipping is free on orders over $100.

-- Randall