Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues

From: <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 16:27:12 +0000 (UTC)

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agreed.... especially considering that no one stated the human ear was 'bet=
ter' than an instrument. BUT.....
Take a look at any procedure for multiple carbs (greater than two) =C2=A0 E=
G: quads on a bike or 8/12 carbs on a Ferrari. ...even three DCOEs on a Tri=
umph 6
NONE suggest a flow meter blocking the intake.=C2=A0 On most bike engines y=
ou use multiple water columns via taps on the sides of the carbs specifical=
ly designed to facilitate balancing. Compared to most LBC's none have a bal=
ance port in the intake manifold so no 'cross contamination ' from air flow=
 via another carb. Block one of four bike carbs and the engine will slow ve=
ry noticeably.

sure the 'premise' is you block both carbs (one at a time) but neither is '=
as is' when running. When you place the meter over the carb throat you chan=
ge the depression and running position of the piston in the throat.=C2=A0 A=
ir volume vs velocity is changed...effecting the carb operations, both air =
AND fuel.=C2=A0 when you slow down the air velocity it doesn't pull as much=
 fuel, and starts consuming air from the other carb via the balance port in=
 the manifold etc etc.=C2=A0=20

You need to use whatever method best suites your sensibilities. As too the =
repercussions of you procedures. Each case is different, each case has diff=
erent expediencies, habits and results=C2=A0=C2=A0 :-)

ptegler

-----Original Message-----
From: DAVID MASSEY <[email-masked]>
To: ptegler <[email-masked]>; trguy75 <[email-masked]>; triumphs <t=
[email-masked]>
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 7:34 am
Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues

=20

Seriously though.... what method didyou use to balance the air flow at idle=
? One of those little flow meters?
 NOPE NADA STOP right there.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Think about it...you're sealing of=
f the air to get the bubble to rise so of course the idle changes....so the=
 balance tube in the manifold sucks from the other carb, bypassing the fuel=
 pull.=20
=20
 What are you talking about?=C2=A0 Sure you affect airflow with the airflow=
 meter but you are affecting both carbs equally when you switch from carb t=
o carb.=C2=A0 If you get the same reading from both they are being effected=
 the same and have the same starting point.=C2=A0 The concept that the huma=
n ear is better than an instrument specifically designed to measure airflow=
 is pure hubris.
One thing to watch out for is assuming that since the carbs are balanced at=
 idle they are balanced under throttle.=C2=A0 Be very careful when tighteni=
ng down the linkage to ensure that both carbs open simultaneously.=C2=A0 Th=
is is particularly important on the TR6-style linkage that has built-in dis=
engagement zones.

Dave Massey

=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Tegler <[email-masked]>
To: Jim Henningsen <[email-masked]>; triumphs <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 3:16 am
Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues

 ok....what do you mean by 'carbs aren't running smoothly'=C2=A0 ? Engine i=
s not smooth?.. sputtering?=C2=A0 not running smooth while cruising? An old=
 adage.... (well two actually)
 "..most carb problems are electrical..."=C2=A0 and "..most ignition proble=
ms are the carbs" Seriously though.... what method didyou use to balance th=
e air flow at idle? One of those little flow meters?
 NOPE NADA STOP right there.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Think about it...you're sealing of=
f the air to get the bubble to rise so of course the idle changes....so the=
 balance tube in the manifold sucks from the other carb, bypassing the fuel=
 pull. I was finally convinced by an old mechanic and have learned from tun=
ing more SU and ZS carbs than I care to mention.... use a 1/4" fuel line as=
 a stethoscope ...one end in your ear..the other just up against the edge (=
not in) the carb throat. blocks minimal air... and believe me you can hear =
as little 1-2 cfm readily, but you can also hear the gurgle of the fuel flo=
w!=C2=A0=C2=A0 Years ago I actually gave away my flow gauges. Eons ago..I g=
ot so fed up once I bought brand new NOS SU carbs to replace mine after thr=
ee rebuilds of the orig units. BUT...STILL had the same issue...smooth spee=
d cruising and it ran like crap. Pull the choke out and it ran fine, but ha=
d to push it in at closed or low speed throttle. Spent a year+ and hundreds=
 of messages on various LBC lists....still to no avail.=C2=A0 Than one day =
at a car show.... I saw a guy with an identical setup.... open big round K&=
Ns and a end plate but had his air filters nearly 3/4 closed off with duct =
tape.=C2=A0 In the end, the problem was incorrect vacuum effects ...not eno=
ugh air velocity when the piston was mid/down as there was no restriction f=
rom the air filters. hhmmm.... ok...
 http://www.teglerizer.com/mgstuff/a_stumble_at_cruise.htm
=20
=20
 ptegler
 =20
 =20
 On 10/15/2018 7:40 PM, Jim Henningsen wrote:
 =20
 Ok, I thought I had this rebuild all nailed down.  Finally got around to
getting carbs balanced and set for correct mixture.  After new kits, testin=
g
piston drop timing per John Twist you tube clip (great clip), and spending
two hours fine tuning air flow and mixture.  The carbs aren't running
smoothly.  There is something not right and I am throwing in the towel.
Don't have a reliable mechanic that I trust for this in Ocala.  Any
recommendations on a rebuilder to send these two to have them checked
professionally. =20

Joe Curto?
Jeff Payla at Paltech - cant seem to get a response from him.
Buy new (ouch)
Others? =20

Thanks in advance
Jim Henningsen
Ocala FL
61 TR3A  eager to enjoy driving it in fall in Florida
62 TR4 eager to have restoration finished
75 TR6 eager to have new race motor put in
82 Jeep ld reliable - get in and go
2002 Triumph Trophy 1200 eager to just get out and be used.
 =20

** [email-masked] **

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs  http://www.team.net/archiv=
e

verizon.net

=20
=20
 --=20
Paul Tegler
[email-masked]  www.teglerizer.com
=20

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<div style="font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:black;"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:black;">agreed.... especially considering that no one stated the human ear was 'better' than an instrument. BUT.....<br>Take
 a look at any procedure for multiple carbs (greater than two) &nbsp; EG: 
quads on a bike or 8/12 carbs on a Ferrari. ...even three DCOEs on a 
Triumph 6<br>NONE suggest a flow meter blocking the intake.&nbsp; On most 
bike engines you use multiple water columns via taps on the sides of the
 carbs specifically designed to facilitate balancing. Compared to most 
LBC's none have a balance port in the intake manifold so no 'cross 
contamination ' from air flow via another carb. Block one of four bike 
carbs and the engine will slow very noticeably.<br><br>sure the 
'premise' is you block both carbs (one at a time) but neither is 'as is'
 when running. When you place the meter over the carb throat you change 
the depression and running position of the piston in the throat.&nbsp; Air 
volume vs velocity is changed...effecting the carb operations, both air 
AND fuel.&nbsp; when you slow down the air velocity it doesn't pull as much 
fuel, and starts consuming air from the other carb via the balance port 
in the manifold etc etc.&nbsp; <br><br>You need to use whatever method best 
suites your sensibilities. As too the repercussions of you procedures. 
Each case is different, each case has different expediencies, habits and
 results&nbsp;&nbsp; :-)<br><br>ptegler<br><br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: DAVID MASSEY &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>To: ptegler &lt;[email-masked]&gt;; trguy75 &lt;[email-masked]&gt;; triumphs &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 7:34 am<br>Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues<br><br></div><div id="yiv6500343243"><div><span data-mce-style="color: black; font-family: Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: medium;" style="color: black; font-family: Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: medium;" size="3" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="black">
</span><div> <br clear="none">
</div>

<div style="font-family:arial, helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black;"><blockquote style="border-left:2px solid blue;padding-left:3px;">
<div>Seriously though.... what method didyou use to balance the air
      flow at idle? One of those little flow meters?<br clear="none">

      NOPE NADA STOP right there.&nbsp;&nbsp; Think about it...you're sealing off
      the air to get the bubble to rise so of course the idle
      changes....so the balance tube in the manifold sucks from the
      other carb, bypassing the fuel pull.</div>

<div></div>
</blockquote></div>

<div> <br clear="none">
</div>

<div> <span data-mce-style="font-size: medium;" style="font-size: medium;" size="3">What are you talking about?&nbsp; Sure you affect airflow with the airflow meter but you are affecting both carbs equally when you switch from carb to carb.&nbsp; If you get the same reading from both they are being effected the same and have the same starting point.&nbsp; The concept that the human ear is better than an instrument specifically designed to measure airflow is pure hubris.</span></div>

<div><span data-mce-style="font-size: medium;" style="font-size: medium;" size="3"><br clear="none">
</span></div>

<div><span data-mce-style="font-size: medium;" style="font-size: medium;" size="3">One thing to watch out for is assuming that since the carbs are balanced at idle they are balanced under throttle.&nbsp; Be very careful when tightening down the linkage to ensure that both carbs open simultaneously.&nbsp; This is particularly important on the TR6-style linkage that has built-in disengagement zones.</span></div>

<div><span data-mce-style="font-size: medium;" style="font-size: medium;" size="3"><br clear="none">
</span></div>

<div><span data-mce-style="font-size: medium;" style="font-size: medium;" size="3"></span><br clear="none">
</div>

<div style="clear:both;"><span data-mce-style="font-size: large;" style="font-size: large;" size="4">Dave Massey</span><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</div>

<div> <br clear="none">
</div>

<div> <br clear="none">
</div>

<div class="yiv6500343243yqt2701170847" id="yiv6500343243yqt08724"><div style="font-family:arial, helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black;">-----Original Message-----<br clear="none">
From: Paul Tegler &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br clear="none">
To: Jim Henningsen &lt;[email-masked]&gt;; triumphs &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br clear="none">
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 3:16 am<br clear="none">
Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">

<div id="yiv6500343243AOLMsgPart_1.2_b3d72249-8701-4264-8a12-6cac1217176c">

<div class="yiv6500343243aolReplacedBody">
    
<div>ok....what do you mean by 'carbs aren't running smoothly'&nbsp; ?</div>

<div>Engine is not smooth?.. sputtering?&nbsp; not running smooth while
      cruising?</div>

<div>An old adage.... (well two actually)<br clear="none">

      "..most carb problems are electrical..."&nbsp; and "..most ignition
      problems are the carbs"</div>

<div>Seriously though.... what method didyou use to balance the air
      flow at idle? One of those little flow meters?<br clear="none">

      NOPE NADA STOP right there.&nbsp;&nbsp; Think about it...you're sealing off
      the air to get the bubble to rise so of course the idle
      changes....so the balance tube in the manifold sucks from the
      other carb, bypassing the fuel pull.</div>

<div>I was finally convinced by an old mechanic and have learned from
      tuning more SU and ZS carbs than I care to mention.... use a 1/4"
      fuel line as a stethoscope ...one end in your ear..the other just
      up against the edge (not in) the carb throat. blocks minimal
      air... and believe me you can hear as little 1-2 cfm readily, but
      you can also hear the gurgle of the fuel flow!&nbsp;&nbsp; Years ago I
      actually gave away my flow gauges.</div>

<div>Eons ago..I got so fed up once I bought brand new NOS SU carbs to
      replace mine after three rebuilds of the orig units. BUT...STILL
      had the same issue...smooth speed cruising and it ran like crap.
      Pull the choke out and it ran fine, but had to push it in at
      closed or low speed throttle. Spent a year+ and hundreds of
      messages on various LBC lists....still to no avail.&nbsp; Than one day
      at a car show.... I saw a guy with an identical setup.... open big
      round K&amp;Ns and a end plate but had his air filters nearly 3/4
      closed off with duct tape.&nbsp; In the end, the problem was incorrect
      vacuum effects ...not enough air velocity when the piston was
      mid/down as there was no restriction from the air filters.</div>

<div>hhmmm.... ok...<br clear="none">

      <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect">http://www.teglerizer.com/mgstuff/a_stumble_at_cruise.htm</a><br data-mce-bogus="1"></div>

<div><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect"><br clear="none">

      </a><br data-mce-bogus="1"></div>

<div><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect">ptegler</a><br clear="none">

    </div>

<div><br clear="none">

    </div>

    <br clear="none">

<div class="yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-cite-prefix">On 10/15/2018 7:40 PM, Jim Henningsen
      wrote:<br clear="none">

    </div>

    <blockquote>
      <pre>Ok, I thought I had this rebuild all nailed down.  Finally got around to
getting carbs balanced and set for correct mixture.  After new kits, testing
piston drop timing per John Twist you tube clip (great clip), and spending
two hours fine tuning air flow and mixture.  The carbs aren't running
smoothly.  There is something not right and I am throwing in the towel.
Don't have a reliable mechanic that I trust for this in Ocala.  Any
recommendations on a rebuilder to send these two to have them checked
professionally.  

Joe Curto?
Jeff Payla at Paltech - cant seem to get a response from him.
Buy new (ouch)
Others?  

Thanks in advance
Jim Henningsen
Ocala FL
61 TR3A  eager to enjoy driving it in fall in Florida
62 TR4 eager to have restoration finished
75 TR6 eager to have new race motor put in
82 Jeep ld reliable - get in and go
2002 Triumph Trophy 1200 eager to just get out and be used.

** <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-txt-link-abbreviated">[email-masked]</a> **

Archive: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-txt-link-freetext">http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs</a>  <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-txt-link-freetext">http://www.team.net/archive</a>

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br clear="none">

    <pre class="yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-signature">-- 
Paul Tegler
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-txt-link-abbreviated">[email-masked]</a>  <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-txt-link-abbreviated">www.teglerizer.com</a><br data-mce-bogus="1"></pre>

</div>

</div>
<br clear="none">
</div></div>
</div></div></div>
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** [email-masked] **

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs  http://www.team.net/archive

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---

From: DAVID MASSEY <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 12:58:28 -0400

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 First off, let me say that if you don't have a flow meter, using the hose/listening method works well enough for our primitive engines.  But the meter will provide greater accuracy.  Sure putting the airflow meter effects the flow through the carb (a bit) but we are not trying to get an absolute calibration.  We want a relative calibration and if both carbs behave the same with the flow meter in place they are set the same.  And that is the end result desired.

Dave Massey

-----Original Message-----
From: ptegler <[email-masked]>
To: dave1massey <[email-masked]>; trguy75 <[email-masked]>; triumphs <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 11:27 am
Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues

agreed.... especially considering that no one stated the human ear was 'better' than an instrument. BUT.....
Take a look at any procedure for multiple carbs (greater than two)   EG: quads on a bike or 8/12 carbs on a Ferrari. ...even three DCOEs on a Triumph 6
NONE suggest a flow meter blocking the intake.  On most bike engines you use multiple water columns via taps on the sides of the carbs specifically designed to facilitate balancing. Compared to most LBC's none have a balance port in the intake manifold so no 'cross contamination ' from air flow via another carb. Block one of four bike carbs and the engine will slow very noticeably.

sure the 'premise' is you block both carbs (one at a time) but neither is 'as is' when running. When you place the meter over the carb throat you change the depression and running position of the piston in the throat.  Air volume vs velocity is changed...effecting the carb operations, both air AND fuel.  when you slow down the air velocity it doesn't pull as much fuel, and starts consuming air from the other carb via the balance port in the manifold etc etc.  

You need to use whatever method best suites your sensibilities. As too the repercussions of you procedures. Each case is different, each case has different expediencies, habits and results   :-)

ptegler

-----Original Message-----
From: DAVID MASSEY <[email-masked]>
To: ptegler <[email-masked]>; trguy75 <[email-masked]>; triumphs <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 7:34 am
Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues

Seriously though.... what method didyou use to balance the air      flow at idle? One of those little flow meters?
      NOPE NADA STOP right there.   Think about it...you're sealing off      the air to get the bubble to rise so of course the idle      changes....so the balance tube in the manifold sucks from the      other carb, bypassing the fuel pull.

 What are you talking about?  Sure you affect airflow with the airflow meter but you are affecting both carbs equally when you switch from carb to carb.  If you get the same reading from both they are being effected the same and have the same starting point.  The concept that the human ear is better than an instrument specifically designed to measure airflow is pure hubris.

One thing to watch out for is assuming that since the carbs are balanced at idle they are balanced under throttle.  Be very careful when tightening down the linkage to ensure that both carbs open simultaneously.  This is particularly important on the TR6-style linkage that has built-in disengagement zones.

Dave Massey

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Tegler <[email-masked]>
To: Jim Henningsen <[email-masked]>; triumphs <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 3:16 am
Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues

ok....what do you mean by 'carbs aren't running smoothly'  ?
    
Engine is not smooth?.. sputtering?  not running smooth while      cruising?
    
An old adage.... (well two actually)
      "..most carb problems are electrical..."  and "..most ignition      problems are the carbs"
    
Seriously though.... what method didyou use to balance the air      flow at idle? One of those little flow meters?
      NOPE NADA STOP right there.   Think about it...you're sealing off      the air to get the bubble to rise so of course the idle      changes....so the balance tube in the manifold sucks from the      other carb, bypassing the fuel pull.
    
I was finally convinced by an old mechanic and have learned from      tuning more SU and ZS carbs than I care to mention.... use a 1/4"      fuel line as a stethoscope ...one end in your ear..the other just      up against the edge (not in) the carb throat. blocks minimal      air... and believe me you can hear as little 1-2 cfm readily, but      you can also hear the gurgle of the fuel flow!   Years ago I      actually gave away my flow gauges.
    
Eons ago..I got so fed up once I bought brand new NOS SU carbs to      replace mine after three rebuilds of the orig units. BUT...STILL      had the same issue...smooth speed cruising and it ran like crap.      Pull the choke out and it ran fine, but had to push it in at      closed or low speed throttle. Spent a year+ and hundreds of      messages on various LBC lists....still to no avail.  Than one day      at a car show.... I saw a guy with an identical setup.... open big      round K&Ns and a end plate but had his air filters nearly 3/4      closed off with duct tape.  In the end, the problem was incorrect      vacuum effects ...not enough air velocity when the piston was      mid/down as there was no restriction from the air filters.
    
hhmmm.... ok...

ptegler

      

Joe Curto?

Thanks in advance
Jim Henningsen
Ocala FL

    

-- 
Paul Tegler

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<font color='black' size='3' face='Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif'>
<div> <font size="3">First off, let me say that if you don't have a flow meter, using the hose/listening method works well enough for our primitive engines.&nbsp; But the meter will provide greater accuracy.&nbsp; Sure putting the airflow meter effects the flow through the carb (a bit) but we are not trying to get an absolute calibration.&nbsp; We want a relative calibration and if both carbs behave the same with the flow meter in place they are set the same.&nbsp; And that is the end result desired.</font><br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div style="clear:both"><font size="4">Dave Massey</font><br>
<br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div> <br>
</div>

<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: ptegler &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
To: dave1massey &lt;[email-masked]&gt;; trguy75 &lt;[email-masked]&gt;; triumphs &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 11:27 am<br>
Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues<br>
<br>

<div id="AOLMsgPart_2_521494f6-2019-4a88-8cfa-6c3a2bf680f9">

<div class="aolReplacedBody">
<div style="font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:black;">
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:black;">agreed.... especially considering that no one stated the human ear was 'better' than an instrument. BUT.....<br>
Take
 a look at any procedure for multiple carbs (greater than two) &nbsp; EG: 
quads on a bike or 8/12 carbs on a Ferrari. ...even three DCOEs on a 
Triumph 6<br>
NONE suggest a flow meter blocking the intake.&nbsp; On most 
bike engines you use multiple water columns via taps on the sides of the
 carbs specifically designed to facilitate balancing. Compared to most 
LBC's none have a balance port in the intake manifold so no 'cross 
contamination ' from air flow via another carb. Block one of four bike 
carbs and the engine will slow very noticeably.<br>
<br>
sure the 
'premise' is you block both carbs (one at a time) but neither is 'as is'
 when running. When you place the meter over the carb throat you change 
the depression and running position of the piston in the throat.&nbsp; Air 
volume vs velocity is changed...effecting the carb operations, both air 
AND fuel.&nbsp; when you slow down the air velocity it doesn't pull as much 
fuel, and starts consuming air from the other carb via the balance port 
in the manifold etc etc.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
You need to use whatever method best 
suites your sensibilities. As too the repercussions of you procedures. 
Each case is different, each case has different expediencies, habits and
 results&nbsp;&nbsp; :-)<br>
<br>
ptegler<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: DAVID MASSEY &lt;<a removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
To: ptegler &lt;<a removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;; trguy75 &lt;<a removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;; triumphs &lt;<a removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 7:34 am<br>
Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues<br>
<br>
</div>

<div id="aolmail_yiv6500343243">
<div><span style="color: black; font-family: Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: medium;">
</span>
<div> <br clear="none">
</div>

    

<div></div>

</blockquote></div>

<div> <br clear="none">
</div>

<div> <span style="font-size: medium;">What are you talking about?&nbsp; Sure you affect airflow with the airflow meter but you are affecting both carbs equally when you switch from carb to carb.&nbsp; If you get the same reading from both they are being effected the same and have the same starting point.&nbsp; The concept that the human ear is better than an instrument specifically designed to measure airflow is pure hubris.</span></div>

<div><span style="font-size: medium;"><br clear="none">
</span></div>

<div><span style="font-size: medium;">One thing to watch out for is assuming that since the carbs are balanced at idle they are balanced under throttle.&nbsp; Be very careful when tightening down the linkage to ensure that both carbs open simultaneously.&nbsp; This is particularly important on the TR6-style linkage that has built-in disengagement zones.</span></div>

<div><span style="font-size: medium;"><br clear="none">
</span></div>

<div><span style="font-size: medium;"></span><br clear="none">
</div>

<div style="clear:both;"><span style="font-size: large;">Dave Massey</span><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
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<div style="font-family:arial, helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black;">-----Original Message-----<br clear="none">
From: Paul Tegler &lt;<a removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br clear="none">
To: Jim Henningsen &lt;<a removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;; triumphs &lt;<a removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br clear="none">
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 3:16 am<br clear="none">
Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">

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      <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect">http://www.teglerizer.com/mgstuff/a_stumble_at_cruise.htm</a><br>
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    <br clear="none">

<div class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-cite-prefix">On 10/15/2018 7:40 PM, Jim Henningsen
      wrote:<br clear="none">

    </div>

    <blockquote>

Joe Curto?

Thanks in advance
Jim Henningsen
Ocala FL

** <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-txt-link-abbreviated">[email-masked]</a> **

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</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br clear="none">

    <pre class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-signature">-- 
Paul Tegler
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-txt-link-abbreviated">[email-masked]</a>  <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-txt-link-abbreviated">www.teglerizer.com</a><br>
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From: Paul Tegler <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 15:45:12 -0400

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..agreed   :-)     but..   (gotta' throw in on caveat)
they will perform the same...IF all cyls are performing the same .... 
variations the meters don't respond to
EG: valve sealing, compression, ring blow by all dismissed as 'noise' 
via the cross port in the manifold.

Just wondering...  Q for the crowd at large.... does anyone still use  
the little rods in the tops of their carbs for balancing?
(usually little kits with a jet wrench and etc)

v/r

ptegler

On 10/16/2018 12:58 PM, DAVID MASSEY wrote:
> First off, let me say that if you don't have a flow meter, using the 
> hose/listening method works well enough for our primitive engines.  
> But the meter will provide greater accuracy.  Sure putting the airflow 
> meter effects the flow through the carb (a bit) but we are not trying 
> to get an absolute calibration.  We want a relative calibration and if 
> both carbs behave the same with the flow meter in place they are set 
> the same.  And that is the end result desired.
>
> Dave Massey
>
>
>
> Take a look at any procedure for multiple carbs (greater than two)   
> EG: quads on a bike or 8/12 carbs on a Ferrari. ...even three DCOEs on 
> a Triumph 6
> NONE suggest a flow meter blocking the intake.  On most bike engines 
> you use multiple water columns via taps on the sides of the carbs 
> specifically designed to facilitate balancing. Compared to most LBC's 
> none have a balance port in the intake manifold so no 'cross 
> carbs and the engine will slow very noticeably.
>
> sure the 'premise' is you block both carbs (one at a time) but neither 
> is 'as is' when running. When you place the meter over the carb throat 
> you change the depression and running position of the piston in the 
> throat.  Air volume vs velocity is changed...effecting the carb 
> operations, both air AND fuel.  when you slow down the air velocity it 
> doesn't pull as much fuel, and starts consuming air from the other 
> carb via the balance port in the manifold etc etc.
>
> You need to use whatever method best suites your sensibilities. As too 
> the repercussions of you procedures. Each case is different, each case 
> has different expediencies, habits and results   :-)
>
> ptegler
>
>
>
>     Seriously though.... what method didyou use to balance the air
>     flow at idle? One of those little flow meters?
>     NOPE NADA STOP right there.   Think about it...you're sealing off
>     other carb, bypassing the fuel pull.
>
>
> What are you talking about?  Sure you affect airflow with the airflow 
> meter but you are affecting both carbs equally when you switch from 
> carb to carb.  If you get the same reading from both they are being 
> effected the same and have the same starting point.  The concept that 
> the human ear is better than an instrument specifically designed to 
> measure airflow is pure hubris.
>
> One thing to watch out for is assuming that since the carbs are 
> balanced at idle they are balanced under throttle.  Be very careful 
> when tightening down the linkage to ensure that both carbs open 
> simultaneously.  This is particularly important on the TR6-style 
> linkage that has built-in disengagement zones.
>
>
> Dave Massey
>
>
>
> NOPE NADA STOP right there.   Think about it...you're sealing off the 
> air to get the bubble to rise so of course the idle changes....so the 
> balance tube in the manifold sucks from the other carb, bypassing the 
> fuel pull.
> I was finally convinced by an old mechanic and have learned from 
> tuning more SU and ZS carbs than I care to mention.... use a 1/4" fuel 
> line as a stethoscope ...one end in your ear..the other just up 
> against the edge (not in) the carb throat. blocks minimal air... and 
> believe me you can hear as little 1-2 cfm readily, but you can also 
> hear the gurgle of the fuel flow!   Years ago I actually gave away my 
> flow gauges.
> Eons ago..I got so fed up once I bought brand new NOS SU carbs to 
> replace mine after three rebuilds of the orig units. BUT...STILL had 
> the same issue...smooth speed cruising and it ran like crap. Pull the 
> choke out and it ran fine, but had to push it in at closed or low 
> speed throttle. Spent a year+ and hundreds of messages on various LBC 
> lists....still to no avail.  Than one day at a car show.... I saw a 
> guy with an identical setup.... open big round K&Ns and a end plate 
> but had his air filters nearly 3/4 closed off with duct tape.  In the 
> end, the problem was incorrect vacuum effects ...not enough air 
> velocity when the piston was mid/down as there was no restriction from 
> the air filters.
> hhmmm.... ok...
>     [email-masked]  **
>
>     Donate:http://www.team.net/donate.html
>     Archive:http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs   http://www.team.net/archive
>
>     Unsubscribe/Manage:http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]
>
>
> -- 
> Paul Tegler

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    <p>..agreed   :-)     but..   (gotta' throw in on caveat)<br>
      they will perform the same...IF all cyls are performing the same
      .... variations the meters don't respond to<br>
      EG: valve sealing, compression, ring blow by all dismissed as
      'noise' via the cross port in the manifold.</p>
    <p>Just wondering...  Q for the crowd at large.... does anyone still
      use  the little rods in the tops of their carbs for balancing?<br>
      (usually little kits with a jet wrench and etc)</p>
    <p>v/r<br>
    </p>
    <p>ptegler<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/16/2018 12:58 PM, DAVID MASSEY
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:[email-masked]">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
      <font size="3" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="black">
        <div> <font size="3">First off, let me say that if you don't
            have a flow meter, using the hose/listening method works
            well enough for our primitive engines.  But the meter will
            provide greater accuracy.  Sure putting the airflow meter
            effects the flow through the carb (a bit) but we are not
            trying to get an absolute calibration.  We want a relative
            calibration and if both carbs behave the same with the flow
            meter in place they are set the same.  And that is the end
            result desired.</font><br>
        </div>
        <div> <br>
        </div>
        <div style="clear:both"><font size="4">Dave Massey</font><br>
          <br>
        </div>
        <div> <br>
        </div>
        <div> <br>
        </div>
        <div
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----Original
          Message-----<br>
          From: ptegler <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a><br>
          To: dave1massey <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a>; trguy75
          <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a>; triumphs
          <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a><br>
          Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 11:27 am<br>
          Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues<br>
          <br>
          <div id="AOLMsgPart_2_521494f6-2019-4a88-8cfa-6c3a2bf680f9">
            <div class="aolReplacedBody">
              <div
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:black;">
                <div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:black;">agreed....
                  especially considering that no one stated the human
                  ear was 'better' than an instrument. BUT.....<br>
                  Take a look at any procedure for multiple carbs
                  (greater than two)   EG: quads on a bike or 8/12 carbs
                  on a Ferrari. ...even three DCOEs on a Triumph 6<br>
                  NONE suggest a flow meter blocking the intake.  On
                  most bike engines you use multiple water columns via
                  taps on the sides of the carbs specifically designed
                  to facilitate balancing. Compared to most LBC's none
                  have a balance port in the intake manifold so no
                  'cross contamination ' from air flow via another carb.
                  Block one of four bike carbs and the engine will slow
                  very noticeably.<br>
                  <br>
                  sure the 'premise' is you block both carbs (one at a
                  time) but neither is 'as is' when running. When you
                  place the meter over the carb throat you change the
                  depression and running position of the piston in the
                  throat.  Air volume vs velocity is changed...effecting
                  the carb operations, both air AND fuel.  when you slow
                  down the air velocity it doesn't pull as much fuel,
                  and starts consuming air from the other carb via the
                  balance port in the manifold etc etc.  <br>
                  <br>
                  You need to use whatever method best suites your
                  sensibilities. As too the repercussions of you
                  procedures. Each case is different, each case has
                  different expediencies, habits and results   :-)<br>
                  <br>
                  ptegler<br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  -----Original Message-----<br>
                  From: DAVID MASSEY &lt;<a
removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:[email-masked]"
                    moz-do-not-send="true">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
                  To: ptegler &lt;<a
removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:[email-masked]"
                    moz-do-not-send="true">[email-masked]</a>&gt;;
                  trguy75 &lt;<a
removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:[email-masked]"
                    moz-do-not-send="true">[email-masked]</a>&gt;;
                  triumphs &lt;<a
removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:[email-masked]"
                    moz-do-not-send="true">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
                  Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 7:34 am<br>
                  Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues<br>
                  <br>
                </div>
                <div id="aolmail_yiv6500343243">
                  <div><span style="color: black; font-family:
                      Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: medium;">
                    </span>
                    <div> <br clear="none">
                    </div>
                    <div style="font-family:arial,
                      helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black;">
                      <blockquote style="border-left:2px solid
                        blue;padding-left:3px;">
                        <div>Seriously though.... what method didyou use
                          to balance the air flow at idle? One of those
                          little flow meters?<br clear="none">
                          NOPE NADA STOP right there.   Think about
                          it...you're sealing off the air to get the
                          bubble to rise so of course the idle
                          changes....so the balance tube in the manifold
                          sucks from the other carb, bypassing the fuel
                          pull.</div>
                      </blockquote>
                    </div>
                    <div> <br clear="none">
                    </div>
                    <div> <span style="font-size: medium;">What are you
                        talking about?  Sure you affect airflow with the
                        airflow meter but you are affecting both carbs
                        equally when you switch from carb to carb.  If
                        you get the same reading from both they are
                        being effected the same and have the same
                        starting point.  The concept that the human ear
                        is better than an instrument specifically
                        designed to measure airflow is pure hubris.</span></div>
                    <div><span style="font-size: medium;"><br
                          clear="none">
                      </span></div>
                    <div><span style="font-size: medium;">One thing to
                        watch out for is assuming that since the carbs
                        are balanced at idle they are balanced under
                        throttle.  Be very careful when tightening down
                        the linkage to ensure that both carbs open
                        simultaneously.  This is particularly important
                        on the TR6-style linkage that has built-in
                        disengagement zones.</span></div>
                    <div><span style="font-size: medium;"><br
                          clear="none">
                      </span></div>
                    <div><span style="font-size: medium;"></span><br
                        clear="none">
                    </div>
                    <div style="clear:both;"><span style="font-size:
                        large;">Dave Massey</span><br clear="none">
                      <br clear="none">
                    </div>
                    <div> <br clear="none">
                    </div>
                    <div> <br clear="none">
                    </div>
                    <div class="aolmail_yiv6500343243yqt2701170847"
                      id="aolmail_yiv6500343243yqt08724">
                      <div style="font-family:arial,
                        helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black;">-----Original
                        Message-----<br clear="none">
                        From: Paul Tegler &lt;<a
removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:[email-masked]"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br
                          clear="none">
                        To: Jim Henningsen &lt;<a
removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:[email-masked]"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">[email-masked]</a>&gt;;
                        triumphs &lt;<a
removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:[email-masked]"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br
                          clear="none">
                        Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 3:16 am<br clear="none">
                        Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues<br
                          clear="none">
                        <br clear="none">
                        <div
id="aolmail_yiv6500343243AOLMsgPart_1.2_b3d72249-8701-4264-8a12-6cac1217176c">
                          <div
                            class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolReplacedBody">
                            <div>ok....what do you mean by 'carbs aren't
                              running smoothly'  ?</div>
                            <div>Engine is not smooth?.. sputtering? 
                              not running smooth while cruising?</div>
                            <div>An old adage.... (well two actually)<br
                                clear="none">
                              "..most carb problems are electrical..." 
                              and "..most ignition problems are the
                              carbs"</div>
                            <div>Seriously though.... what method didyou
                              use to balance the air flow at idle? One
                              of those little flow meters?<br
                                clear="none">
                              NOPE NADA STOP right there.   Think about
                              it...you're sealing off the air to get the
                              bubble to rise so of course the idle
                              changes....so the balance tube in the
                              manifold sucks from the other carb,
                              bypassing the fuel pull.</div>
                            <div>I was finally convinced by an old
                              mechanic and have learned from tuning more
                              SU and ZS carbs than I care to mention....
                              use a 1/4" fuel line as a stethoscope
                              ...one end in your ear..the other just up
                              against the edge (not in) the carb throat.
                              blocks minimal air... and believe me you
                              can hear as little 1-2 cfm readily, but
                              you can also hear the gurgle of the fuel
                              flow!   Years ago I actually gave away my
                              flow gauges.</div>
                            <div>Eons ago..I got so fed up once I bought
                              brand new NOS SU carbs to replace mine
                              after three rebuilds of the orig units.
                              BUT...STILL had the same issue...smooth
                              speed cruising and it ran like crap. Pull
                              the choke out and it ran fine, but had to
                              push it in at closed or low speed
                              throttle. Spent a year+ and hundreds of
                              messages on various LBC lists....still to
                              no avail.  Than one day at a car show....
                              I saw a guy with an identical setup....
                              open big round K&amp;Ns and a end plate
                              but had his air filters nearly 3/4 closed
                              off with duct tape.  In the end, the
                              problem was incorrect vacuum effects
                              ...not enough air velocity when the piston
                              was mid/down as there was no restriction
                              from the air filters.</div>
                            <div>hhmmm.... ok...<br clear="none">
                              <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
                                moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.teglerizer.com/mgstuff/a_stumble_at_cruise.htm</a><br>
                            </div>
                            <div><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
                                moz-do-not-send="true"><br clear="none">
                              </a><br>
                            </div>
                            <div><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
                                moz-do-not-send="true">ptegler</a><br
                                clear="none">
                            </div>
                            <div><br clear="none">
                            </div>
                            <br clear="none">
                            <div
                              class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-cite-prefix">On
                              10/15/2018 7:40 PM, Jim Henningsen wrote:<br
                                clear="none">
                            </div>
                            <blockquote>
                              <pre>Ok, I thought I had this rebuild all nailed down.  Finally got around to
getting carbs balanced and set for correct mixture.  After new kits, testing
piston drop timing per John Twist you tube clip (great clip), and spending
two hours fine tuning air flow and mixture.  The carbs aren't running
smoothly.  There is something not right and I am throwing in the towel.
Don't have a reliable mechanic that I trust for this in Ocala.  Any
recommendations on a rebuilder to send these two to have them checked
professionally.  

Joe Curto?

Thanks in advance
Jim Henningsen
Ocala FL

** <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-txt-link-abbreviated" moz-do-not-send="true">[email-masked]</a> **

Archive: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs</a>  <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.team.net/archive</a>

</pre>
                            </blockquote>
                            <br clear="none">
                            <pre class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-signature">-- 
Paul Tegler
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-txt-link-abbreviated" moz-do-not-send="true">[email-masked]</a>  <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-txt-link-abbreviated" moz-do-not-send="true">www.teglerizer.com</a>

</pre>
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    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Paul Tegler
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.teglerizer.com">www.teglerizer.com</a></pre>
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From: Jeff Scarbrough <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 19:41:57 -0400

--===============8081736955319539554==

--00000000000008e44d0578611a9e

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 6:36 PM <[email-masked]> wrote:

>
> sure the 'premise' is you block both carbs (one at a time) but neither is
> 'as is' when running.
>
>
I open up my flow meter so that it doesn't affect the running, as much as
possible.  As long as the ball floats, it can float anywhere on the scale,
as long as it does so for both carbueretters.

--00000000000008e44d0578611a9e
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue=
, Oct 16, 2018 at 6:36 PM &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">ptegle=
[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:black">=
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:b=
lack"><br>sure the=20
&#39;premise&#39; is you block both carbs (one at a time) but neither is &#=
39;as is&#39;
 when running. </div></div><br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I open up m=
y flow meter so that it doesn&#39;t affect the running, as much as possible=
.=C2=A0 As long as the ball floats, it can float anywhere on the scale, as =
long as it does so for both carbueretters.=C2=A0</div></div></div>

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From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 07:55:32 -0500

> Just wondering...  Q for the crowd at large.... does anyone 
> still use  the little rods in the tops of their carbs for balancing?

I do, on occasion. My hearing isn't what it used to be, so it's nice to have
a visual check in addition to the "listen to the hiss" method.

Another thing it offers is that you can check how well the throttle plates
track each other when the throttle is opened.  The TR3 style linkage, with
the pedal connected to the front of the front carb, definitely flexes a bit,
causing the synchronization to be off as soon as you step on the pedal.  How
much it flexes may depend on things like how tight the return spring on the
rear carb is, and how rusty the little wavy clamps are that connect the
throttle spindles.  Dave mentioned the lost motion in the later linkages;
here's how you check that, too.

But honestly, I've never been able to tell the difference in how the engine
runs.  Even with the synchronization way off, all I get is a little rougher
idle (bit of a lope, almost like a performance cam).  The engine still runs
fine.

No doubt it varies from instrument to instrument, but I was very
disappointed in the Uni-syn clone I got.  The ball was rough, and didn't fit
the tube very well, making it very insensitive unless the tube was
positioned almost horizontal.  And even then you're relying on the carb
faces to both be at the same angle to vertical, which might not be true.
It's in a box somewhere, I haven't tried to use it again.  Even on the
Stags, which make using the "little rods" problematic because the carbs are
on opposite sides of the engine.

IMO there is also a lot to be said for a method that uses something laying
around (a length of old fuel line or heater hose works just fine) as opposed
to a relatively expensive instrument that has to be stored and cared for
(and invariably is in the other shop).  Right now, I'm some 2000 miles away
from my rollaway tool chest, looking at a TR3A that I had originally hoped
to have running this year.  Not gonna happen, but when it does, you can bet
I'm not going to go get that tool!

In a pinch, you can do an adequate job just by sticking your good ear as
close to each carb (but the same distance) as possible.  Many years ago now,
I followed a Spitfire on a club run that was blowing black smoke and
obviously struggling with the hills.  When the group stopped, I mentioned
the black smoke to the driver.  Long story short, I wound up adjusting his
carbs right there in the parking lot, with just my ears and fingers.  He
told me later that it ran better on the way home than it had in years, even
right after a professional tune-up!

-- Randall

---

From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 08:32:08 -0500

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I still use the jet wrench from the balance kit.  Been using a Uni-Syn for b=
etter than 50 years, will probably continue. =20
Bill

Sent from my Handspring Treo

On Oct 16, 2018, at 2:45 PM, Paul Tegler <[email-masked]> wrote:

..agreed   :-)     but..   (gotta' throw in on caveat)
they will perform the same...IF all cyls are performing the same .... variat=
ions the meters don't respond to
EG: valve sealing, compression, ring blow by all dismissed as 'noise' via th=
e cross port in the manifold.

Just wondering...  Q for the crowd at large.... does anyone still use  the l=
ittle rods in the tops of their carbs for balancing?
(usually little kits with a jet wrench and etc)

v/r

ptegler

> First off, let me say that if you don't have a flow meter, using the hose/=
listening method works well enough for our primitive engines.  But the meter=
 will provide greater accuracy.  Sure putting the airflow meter effects the f=
low through the carb (a bit) but we are not trying to get an absolute calibr=
ation.  We want a relative calibration and if both carbs behave the same wit=
h the flow meter in place they are set the same.  And that is the end result=
 desired.
> To: dave1massey <[email-masked]>; trguy75 <[email-masked]>; triumph=
s <[email-masked]>
> agreed.... especially considering that no one stated the human ear was 'be=
tter' than an instrument. BUT.....
> Take a look at any procedure for multiple carbs (greater than two)   EG: q=
uads on a bike or 8/12 carbs on a Ferrari. ...even three DCOEs on a Triumph 6=

> NONE suggest a flow meter blocking the intake.  On most bike engines you u=
se multiple water columns via taps on the sides of the carbs specifically de=
signed to facilitate balancing. Compared to most LBC's none have a balance p=
ort in the intake manifold so no 'cross contamination ' from air flow via an=
other carb. Block one of four bike carbs and the engine will slow very notic=
eably.
> sure the 'premise' is you block both carbs (one at a time) but neither is '=
as is' when running. When you place the meter over the carb throat you chang=
e the depression and running position of the piston in the throat.  Air volu=
me vs velocity is changed...effecting the carb operations, both air AND fuel=
.  when you slow down the air velocity it doesn't pull as much fuel, and sta=
rts consuming air from the other carb via the balance port in the manifold e=
tc etc. =20
>=20
> You need to use whatever method best suites your sensibilities. As too the=
 repercussions of you procedures. Each case is different, each case has diff=
erent expediencies, habits and results   :-)
> To: ptegler <[email-masked]>; trguy75 <[email-masked]>; triumphs <=
[email-masked]>
> Seriously though.... what method didyou use to balance the air flow at idl=
e? One of those little flow meters?
> NOPE NADA STOP right there.   Think about it...you're sealing off the air t=
o get the bubble to rise so of course the idle changes....so the balance tub=
e in the manifold sucks from the other carb, bypassing the fuel pull.
>=20
> What are you talking about?  Sure you affect airflow with the airflow mete=
r but you are affecting both carbs equally when you switch from carb to carb=
.  If you get the same reading from both they are being effected the same an=
d have the same starting point.  The concept that the human ear is better th=
an an instrument specifically designed to measure airflow is pure hubris.
>=20
> One thing to watch out for is assuming that since the carbs are balanced a=
t idle they are balanced under throttle.  Be very careful when tightening do=
wn the linkage to ensure that both carbs open simultaneously.  This is parti=
cularly important on the TR6-style linkage that has built-in disengagement z=
ones.
> To: Jim Henningsen <[email-masked]>; triumphs <[email-masked]>=

> "..most carb problems are electrical..."  and "..most ignition problems ar=
e the carbs"
> Seriously though.... what method didyou use to balance the air flow at idl=
e? One of those little flow meters?
> NOPE NADA STOP right there.   Think about it...you're sealing off the air t=
o get the bubble to rise so of course the idle changes....so the balance tub=
e in the manifold sucks from the other carb, bypassing the fuel pull.
> I was finally convinced by an old mechanic and have learned from tuning mo=
re SU and ZS carbs than I care to mention.... use a 1/4" fuel line as a stet=
hoscope ...one end in your ear..the other just up against the edge (not in) t=
he carb throat. blocks minimal air... and believe me you can hear as little 1=
-2 cfm readily, but you can also hear the gurgle of the fuel flow!   Years a=
go I actually gave away my flow gauges.
> Eons ago..I got so fed up once I bought brand new NOS SU carbs to replace m=
ine after three rebuilds of the orig units. BUT...STILL had the same issue..=
.smooth speed cruising and it ran like crap. Pull the choke out and it ran f=
ine, but had to push it in at closed or low speed throttle. Spent a year+ an=
d hundreds of messages on various LBC lists....still to no avail.  Than one d=
ay at a car show.... I saw a guy with an identical setup.... open big round K=
&Ns and a end plate but had his air filters nearly 3/4 closed off with duct t=
ape.  In the end, the problem was incorrect vacuum effects ...not enough air=
 velocity when the piston was mid/down as there was no restriction from the a=
ir filters.
> getting carbs balanced and set for correct mixture.  After new kits, testi=
ng
> piston drop timing per John Twist you tube clip (great clip), and spending=

> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs  http://www.team.net/archi=
ve
>=20
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/ptegler=
@verizon.net

--=20
Paul Tegler

ash.net

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto">I still use the jet wrench from the balance kit. &nbsp;Been using a Uni-Syn for better than 50 years, will probably continue. &nbsp;<div>Bill<br><br><div id="AppleMailSignature" dir="ltr"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Sent from my Handspring Treo</span></div><div dir="ltr"><br>On Oct 16, 2018, at 2:45 PM, Paul Tegler &lt;<a href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div dir="ltr">

    <p>..agreed&nbsp;&nbsp; :-) &nbsp; &nbsp; but..&nbsp;&nbsp; (gotta' throw in on caveat)<br>
      they will perform the same...IF all cyls are performing the same
      .... variations the meters don't respond to<br>
      EG: valve sealing, compression, ring blow by all dismissed as
      'noise' via the cross port in the manifold.</p>
    <p>Just wondering...&nbsp; Q for the crowd at large.... does anyone still
      use&nbsp; the little rods in the tops of their carbs for balancing?<br>
      (usually little kits with a jet wrench and etc)</p>
    <p>v/r<br>
    </p>
    <p>ptegler<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/16/2018 12:58 PM, DAVID MASSEY
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:[email-masked]">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
      <font size="3" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="black">
        <div> <font size="3">First off, let me say that if you don't
            have a flow meter, using the hose/listening method works
            well enough for our primitive engines.&nbsp; But the meter will
            provide greater accuracy.&nbsp; Sure putting the airflow meter
            effects the flow through the carb (a bit) but we are not
            trying to get an absolute calibration.&nbsp; We want a relative
            calibration and if both carbs behave the same with the flow
            meter in place they are set the same.&nbsp; And that is the end
            result desired.</font><br>
        </div>
        <div> <br>
        </div>
        <div style="clear:both"><font size="4">Dave Massey</font><br>
          <br>
        </div>
        <div> <br>
        </div>
        <div> <br>
        </div>
        <div style="font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----Original
          Message-----<br>
          From: ptegler <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a><br>
          To: dave1massey <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a>; trguy75
          <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a>; triumphs
          <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a><br>
          Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 11:27 am<br>
          Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues<br>
          <br>
          <div id="AOLMsgPart_2_521494f6-2019-4a88-8cfa-6c3a2bf680f9">
            <div class="aolReplacedBody">
              <div style="font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:black;">
                <div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:black;">agreed....
                  especially considering that no one stated the human
                  ear was 'better' than an instrument. BUT.....<br>
                  Take a look at any procedure for multiple carbs
                  (greater than two) &nbsp; EG: quads on a bike or 8/12 carbs
                  on a Ferrari. ...even three DCOEs on a Triumph 6<br>
                  NONE suggest a flow meter blocking the intake.&nbsp; On
                  most bike engines you use multiple water columns via
                  taps on the sides of the carbs specifically designed
                  to facilitate balancing. Compared to most LBC's none
                  have a balance port in the intake manifold so no
                  'cross contamination ' from air flow via another carb.
                  Block one of four bike carbs and the engine will slow
                  very noticeably.<br>
                  <br>
                  sure the 'premise' is you block both carbs (one at a
                  time) but neither is 'as is' when running. When you
                  place the meter over the carb throat you change the
                  depression and running position of the piston in the
                  throat.&nbsp; Air volume vs velocity is changed...effecting
                  the carb operations, both air AND fuel.&nbsp; when you slow
                  down the air velocity it doesn't pull as much fuel,
                  and starts consuming air from the other carb via the
                  balance port in the manifold etc etc.&nbsp; <br>
                  <br>
                  You need to use whatever method best suites your
                  sensibilities. As too the repercussions of you
                  procedures. Each case is different, each case has
                  different expediencies, habits and results&nbsp;&nbsp; :-)<br>
                  <br>
                  ptegler<br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  -----Original Message-----<br>
                  From: DAVID MASSEY &lt;<a removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:[email-masked]" moz-do-not-send="true">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
                  To: ptegler &lt;<a removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:[email-masked]" moz-do-not-send="true">[email-masked]</a>&gt;;
                  trguy75 &lt;<a removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:[email-masked]" moz-do-not-send="true">[email-masked]</a>&gt;;
                  triumphs &lt;<a removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:[email-masked]" moz-do-not-send="true">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br>
                  Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 7:34 am<br>
                  Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues<br>
                  <br>
                </div>
                <div id="aolmail_yiv6500343243">
                  <div><span style="color: black; font-family:
                      Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: medium;">
                    </span>
                    <div> <br clear="none">
                    </div>
                    <div style="font-family:arial,
                      helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black;">
                      <blockquote style="border-left:2px solid
                        blue;padding-left:3px;">
                        <div>Seriously though.... what method didyou use
                          to balance the air flow at idle? One of those
                          little flow meters?<br clear="none">
                          NOPE NADA STOP right there.&nbsp;&nbsp; Think about
                          it...you're sealing off the air to get the
                          bubble to rise so of course the idle
                          changes....so the balance tube in the manifold
                          sucks from the other carb, bypassing the fuel
                          pull.</div>
                      </blockquote>
                    </div>
                    <div> <br clear="none">
                    </div>
                    <div> <span style="font-size: medium;">What are you
                        talking about?&nbsp; Sure you affect airflow with the
                        airflow meter but you are affecting both carbs
                        equally when you switch from carb to carb.&nbsp; If
                        you get the same reading from both they are
                        being effected the same and have the same
                        starting point.&nbsp; The concept that the human ear
                        is better than an instrument specifically
                        designed to measure airflow is pure hubris.</span></div>
                    <div><span style="font-size: medium;"><br clear="none">
                      </span></div>
                    <div><span style="font-size: medium;">One thing to
                        watch out for is assuming that since the carbs
                        are balanced at idle they are balanced under
                        throttle.&nbsp; Be very careful when tightening down
                        the linkage to ensure that both carbs open
                        simultaneously.&nbsp; This is particularly important
                        on the TR6-style linkage that has built-in
                        disengagement zones.</span></div>
                    <div><span style="font-size: medium;"><br clear="none">
                      </span></div>
                    <div><span style="font-size: medium;"></span><br clear="none">
                    </div>
                    <div style="clear:both;"><span style="font-size:
                        large;">Dave Massey</span><br clear="none">
                      <br clear="none">
                    </div>
                    <div> <br clear="none">
                    </div>
                    <div> <br clear="none">
                    </div>
                    <div class="aolmail_yiv6500343243yqt2701170847" id="aolmail_yiv6500343243yqt08724">
                      <div style="font-family:arial,
                        helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black;">-----Original
                        Message-----<br clear="none">
                        From: Paul Tegler &lt;<a removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:[email-masked]" moz-do-not-send="true">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br clear="none">
                        To: Jim Henningsen &lt;<a removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:[email-masked]" moz-do-not-send="true">[email-masked]</a>&gt;;
                        triumphs &lt;<a removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:[email-masked]" moz-do-not-send="true">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<br clear="none">
                        Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 3:16 am<br clear="none">
                        Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues<br clear="none">
                        <br clear="none">
                        <div id="aolmail_yiv6500343243AOLMsgPart_1.2_b3d72249-8701-4264-8a12-6cac1217176c">
                          <div class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolReplacedBody">
                            <div>ok....what do you mean by 'carbs aren't
                              running smoothly'&nbsp; ?</div>
                            <div>Engine is not smooth?.. sputtering?&nbsp;
                              not running smooth while cruising?</div>
                            <div>An old adage.... (well two actually)<br clear="none">
                              "..most carb problems are electrical..."&nbsp;
                              and "..most ignition problems are the
                              carbs"</div>
                            <div>Seriously though.... what method didyou
                              use to balance the air flow at idle? One
                              of those little flow meters?<br clear="none">
                              NOPE NADA STOP right there.&nbsp;&nbsp; Think about
                              it...you're sealing off the air to get the
                              bubble to rise so of course the idle
                              changes....so the balance tube in the
                              manifold sucks from the other carb,
                              bypassing the fuel pull.</div>
                            <div>I was finally convinced by an old
                              mechanic and have learned from tuning more
                              SU and ZS carbs than I care to mention....
                              use a 1/4" fuel line as a stethoscope
                              ...one end in your ear..the other just up
                              against the edge (not in) the carb throat.
                              blocks minimal air... and believe me you
                              can hear as little 1-2 cfm readily, but
                              you can also hear the gurgle of the fuel
                              flow!&nbsp;&nbsp; Years ago I actually gave away my
                              flow gauges.</div>
                            <div>Eons ago..I got so fed up once I bought
                              brand new NOS SU carbs to replace mine
                              after three rebuilds of the orig units.
                              BUT...STILL had the same issue...smooth
                              speed cruising and it ran like crap. Pull
                              the choke out and it ran fine, but had to
                              push it in at closed or low speed
                              throttle. Spent a year+ and hundreds of
                              messages on various LBC lists....still to
                              no avail.&nbsp; Than one day at a car show....
                              I saw a guy with an identical setup....
                              open big round K&amp;Ns and a end plate
                              but had his air filters nearly 3/4 closed
                              off with duct tape.&nbsp; In the end, the
                              problem was incorrect vacuum effects
                              ...not enough air velocity when the piston
                              was mid/down as there was no restriction
                              from the air filters.</div>
                            <div>hhmmm.... ok...<br clear="none">
                              <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.teglerizer.com/mgstuff/a_stumble_at_cruise.htm</a><br>
                            </div>
                            <div><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" moz-do-not-send="true"><br clear="none">
                              </a><br>
                            </div>
                            <div><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" moz-do-not-send="true">ptegler</a><br clear="none">
                            </div>
                            <div><br clear="none">
                            </div>
                            <br clear="none">
                            <div class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-cite-prefix">On
                              10/15/2018 7:40 PM, Jim Henningsen wrote:<br clear="none">
                            </div>
                            <blockquote>
                              <pre>Ok, I thought I had this rebuild all nailed down.  Finally got around to
getting carbs balanced and set for correct mixture.  After new kits, testing
piston drop timing per John Twist you tube clip (great clip), and spending
two hours fine tuning air flow and mixture.  The carbs aren't running
smoothly.  There is something not right and I am throwing in the towel.
Don't have a reliable mechanic that I trust for this in Ocala.  Any
recommendations on a rebuilder to send these two to have them checked
professionally.  

Joe Curto?

Thanks in advance
Jim Henningsen
Ocala FL

</pre>
                            </blockquote>
                            <br clear="none">

</pre>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                        <br clear="none">
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </font>
    </blockquote>
    <br>

</div><div dir="ltr"><span>** <a href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a> **</span><br><span></span><br><span>Donate: <a href="http://www.team.net/donate.html">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a></span><br><span>Archive: <a href="http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs">http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs</a> &nbsp;<a href="http://www.team.net/archive">http://www.team.net/archive</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>Unsubscribe/Manage: <a href="http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]</a></span><br></div></div></body></html>
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---

From: Peter Caldwell <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 10:13:25 -0500

I do.   Best way to tell if the carbs and linkage are "balanced" at 
higher-than-idle revs.

     Peter C

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]

---

From: Jim Henningsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 22:41:22 -0400

I just got one of those kits.  How do you use the rods? I didn’t find a YouTube clip.  Thanks,
Jim Henningsen 

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 17, 2018, at 11:13 AM, Peter Caldwell <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> I do.   Best way to tell if the carbs and linkage are "balanced" at higher-than-idle revs.
> 
>     Peter C
> 
> Just wondering...  Q for the crowd at large.... does anyone still use  the little rods in the tops of their carbs for balancing?
>> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]