Subject: [TR] Problem solved - not totally sure how

From: Rye Livingston <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 06:26:00 +0000 (GMT) MailServer16E78.25278-16A-1132-e21ea0a6a8b6 t=1469168761; bh=3//PXQ+k48eyvIKSkzfIvqJf72gakdjP/moK2iC/yD8=; h=MIME-version:Content-type:To:From:Subject:Date:Message-id; b=oJJ5NKhdxXNZxuqJYrLsQ+0y5C+NTapGKsaSSYiw22QZ1U38mGFTWnUXfeIsf2m2y dWsY4JCuGCXojAP5ESKU5IBgaDz1bJB63EyHM/Ai+MrVZdlRed21LIhe6cpdJge48n avoeqwDU0XlzndJMD/yrUPTMva3Q7e92/30xS1X+qEweRVlPIFEGyQVIDU8NhZzBYj RRuao98QhNP+dRS7SB394n3gJxG6Q/LdNcsbOT+dln9Qr5GQRPjZ9KSVTIDNV3+o4R 8bkMJogiftLPvDon3VF+fHwe7e3NaVmJeFTM+GT8nicHQUoOaL98HRGzPUrAXl5gXo UM4LksnAO0yIg==

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How do you like that title? =C2=A0Somewhat seriously, the overdrive issue =
is fixed, but they aren't quite sure how/why. =C2=A0=0A=0AThis is the issu=
e of overdrive=C2=A0dropping out when under load during acceleration like =
an automatic transmission. =C2=A0They took the transmission out of the car=
 again, second time, and took it all apart again, for the second time. =C2=
=A0The overdrive was completely dismantled and inspected part by part, pie=
ce by piece, everything looking absolutely perfect by Dave, and Jim who is=
 a British transmission specialist. Jim was holding the tapered cone gear =
I think it's called, which has the clutch material around the outside of i=
t, which fits into the sun gear, I think I have the correct names for thes=
e, anyway, when he manually pushed the two together as they would engage, =
there was the slightest movement in the fit. =C2=A0They showed it to me an=
d there is about 1/16th of a wiggle. =C2=A0Both Dave and Jim said when loo=
king at this, it's so slight they both felt=C2=A0it should work and not be=
 an issue. =C2=A0But they couldn't find any other issue so he dug through =
his inventory and had one from his new old stock, manually put that one in=
 the sun gear, no wiggle at all. =C2=A0They put it all back together and b=
ingo, shifts perfectly.=0A=0AThe "not sure why" part is because they both =
feel that slight gap shouldn't have caused the problem, and wonder if ther=
e is some other fluid that could have soaked the clutch material causing i=
t to slip. =C2=A0I don't remember the name of what it is, but his example =
should resonate with some of you. =C2=A0In a particular model of Jaguar th=
e differential binds badly and makes some bad noises. =C2=A0In with the di=
fferential oil there is some sort of fluid that by design allows it to bin=
d less and it works perfectly and no bad noises. =C2=A0If that fluid was s=
omehow added to the oil in the OD it would cause it to slip, and would be =
undetectable to the touch of the clutch material when dismantled.=0A=0AA=C2=
=A0few of you responded that the clutch was slipping, and you were right, =
but it wasn't because of low PSI keeping the OD engaged. =C2=A0I want to b=
e sure and make the point that British Motorsports stood behind their work=
 rebuilding the transmission, and the only charge to me was for the tapere=
d cone gear. =C2=A0=0A=0ABottom line I'm thrilled it's resolved and with t=
he strong rebuilt engine, the car=C2=A0is very quick and a blast to drive.=
 =C2=A0Now to start on my list of smaller projects getting the car ready f=
or Triumphest this fall in Ventura, CA.=0A=0ARye=0AActivities Director=0AT=
riumph Travelers Sports Car Club=0A1960 TR3A=0A=

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<html><body><div>How do you like that title? &nbsp;Somewhat seriously, the overdrive i=
ssue is fixed, but they aren't quite sure how/why. &nbsp;</div><div><br da=
ta-mce-bogus=3D"1"></div><div>This is the issue of overdrive&nbsp;dropping=
 out when under load during acceleration like an automatic transmission. &=
nbsp;They took the transmission out of the car again, second time, and too=
k it all apart again, for the second time. &nbsp;The overdrive was complet=
ely dismantled and inspected part by part, piece by piece, everything look=
ing absolutely perfect by Dave, and Jim who is a British transmission spec=
ialist. Jim was holding the tapered cone gear I think it's called, which h=
as the clutch material around the outside of it, which fits into the sun g=
ear, I think I have the correct names for these, anyway, when he manually =
pushed the two together as they would engage, there was the slightest move=
ment in the fit. &nbsp;They showed it to me and there is about 1/16th of a=
 wiggle. &nbsp;Both Dave and Jim said when looking at this, it's so slight=
 they both felt&nbsp;it should work and not be an issue. &nbsp;But they co=
uldn't find any other issue so he dug through his inventory and had one fr=
om his new old stock, manually put that one in the sun gear, no wiggle at =
all. &nbsp;They put it all back together and bingo, shifts perfectly.</div=
><div><br data-mce-bogus=3D"1"></div><div>The "not sure why" part is becau=
se they both feel that slight gap shouldn't have caused the problem, and w=
onder if there is some other fluid that could have soaked the clutch mater=
ial causing it to slip. &nbsp;I don't remember the name of what it is, but=
 his example should resonate with some of you. &nbsp;In a particular model=
 of Jaguar the differential binds badly and makes some bad noises. &nbsp;I=
n with the differential oil there is some sort of fluid that by design all=
ows it to bind less and it works perfectly and no bad noises. &nbsp;If tha=
t fluid was somehow added to the oil in the OD it would cause it to slip, =
and would be undetectable to the touch of the clutch material when dismant=
led.</div><div><br data-mce-bogus=3D"1"></div><div>A&nbsp;few of you respo=
nded that the clutch was slipping, and you were right, but it wasn't becau=
se of low PSI keeping the OD engaged. &nbsp;I want to be sure and make the=
 point that British Motorsports stood behind their work rebuilding the tra=
nsmission, and the only charge to me was for the tapered cone gear. &nbsp;=
</div><div><br data-mce-bogus=3D"1"></div><div>Bottom line I'm thrilled it=
's resolved and with the strong rebuilt engine, the car&nbsp;is very quick=
 and a blast to drive. &nbsp;Now to start on my list of smaller projects g=
etting the car ready for Triumphest this fall in Ventura, CA.</div><div><b=
r data-mce-bogus=3D"1"></div><div>Rye</div><div>Activities Director</div><=
div>Triumph Travelers Sports Car Club</div><div>1960 TR3A</div><div></div>=
<div class=3D"x-apple-signature"></div></body></html>=

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** [email-masked] **

Archive: http://www.team.net/archive

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---

From: Rye Livingston <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 15:19:05 +0000 (GMT) MailServer16E78.25278-16A-1132-e21ea0a6a8b6 t=1469200747; bh=VcSGWQC9IN0xC8+1++0xjncsVvnV0VywIL29IjXgOqs=; h=MIME-version:Content-type:To:From:Subject:Date:Message-id; b=WyiBC+QIRFSpfCJUFRvxP4asqpqA62lfqAAJjEzbf6NlbyRx0O4SdaH4hSho2PPfi yepj7kpJxB1FQ7u4Bnc+/gRfDCGPLf685TDuo9TvFzeqtD0424c0CbBVm1SilO/MRt lUuXRqndfsdcju/l7d1WVrcOhfuqhvnPn4Py2KBohT3yUdy00szQDURD550CqdeMgx VJbLNXBhKs1jEV0KgRWoaL1dabAVIEZlSj1cLKlbN+EzrhJfZZavEXRQmF/EyFJIWs Ccn5NkPk7dIPSxwGckrXaO/erV9nJ7wV2Vxmnn4oSTYs+ZO6RlbnAOV98/d7cTMAUE ljDVNSqHZIOcA==

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Yes. =C2=A0Dave and Jim felt the parts acted like there may have been some=
thing like which=C2=A0permeating the clutch material, so even though there=
 was all new fluid after the rebuild it was slipping. =C2=A0=0A=0AI plan t=
o bring the the parts to the next meeting for a little show and tell. =C2=A0=
The "wiggle" is so slight it's hard to believe that was the cause.=0A=0ATh=
ey also said it would have been exasperated by my "torquey" engine, which =
I was pleased to hear. =C2=A0With the big bore kit, hotter cam and=C2=A09 =
lb flywheel, it does get up and go. :-)=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Jul 22, 2016, at 07:=
56 AM, "Rick Kinnune [email-masked] [TTSCC]" <TTSCC@yahoogroups=
.com> wrote:=0A=0A=0A=0ASounds like someone might have added a "friction m=
odifier" to the tranny fluid..this stuff works wonders in limited slip dif=
fs....but could play havoc with a system that requires friction to work...=
like an OD!=0A=0ARed Line Synthetic Oil - Gear Oil for Differentials - Lim=
ited Slip Friction Modifier=0A=0ARed Line Synthetic Oil - Gear Oil for Dif=
ferentials - Limited Slip Friction Modifier=0ACompatible with both petrole=
um and synthetic gear oils=0A=0ATwo things I always stick to OEM specs on =
are fluids and spark plugs...automotive engineers spend tons of time and m=
oney confirming which ones work best in their designs...so all the "market=
ing hype" given to "improved performance" can lead you to mess up good des=
igns...=0A=0ARick Kinnune ...aka "Spitpilot"...spit's gone (too dangerous =
to take the grandkids out in) but not forgotten..nor are the good times wi=
th TTSCC members!=0A=0A=0A__._,_.___=0A=0APosted by: Rick Kinnune <triumph=
[email-masked]>=0A=0AReply via web post	=E2=80=A2	Reply to sender 	=E2=
=80=A2	Reply to group 	=E2=80=A2	Start a New Topic	=E2=80=A2	Messages in t=
his topic (3)=0ASave time and get your email on the go with the Yahoo Mail=
 app=0AGet the beautifully designed, lighting fast, and easy-to-use Yahoo =
Mail today. Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and m=
ore) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud s=
torage.=0A    =0AVISIT YOUR GROUP=0A=E2=80=A2 Privacy =E2=80=A2 Unsubscrib=
e =E2=80=A2 Terms of Use=0A=0A=0A.=0A =0A=0A__,_._,___=

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<html><body><div>Yes. &nbsp;Dave and Jim felt the parts acted like there may have been=
 something like which&nbsp;permeating the clutch material, so even though =
there was all new fluid after the rebuild it was slipping. &nbsp;</div><di=
v><br data-mce-bogus=3D"1"></div><div>I plan to bring the the parts to the=
 next meeting for a little show and tell. &nbsp;The "wiggle" is so slight =
it's hard to believe that was the cause.</div><div><br data-mce-bogus=3D"1=
"></div><div>They also said it would have been exasperated by my "torquey"=
 engine, which I was pleased to hear. &nbsp;With the big bore kit, hotter =
cam and&nbsp;9 lb flywheel, it does get up and go. :-)</div><div><br data-=
mce-bogus=3D"1"></div><div><br data-mce-bogus=3D"1"></div><div class=3D"x-=
apple-signature"></div><div><br>On Jul 22, 2016, at 07:56 AM, "Rick Kinnun=
e [email-masked] [TTSCC]" &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:<=
br><br></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"msg-quote" style=
=3D"background-color: #fff;" data-mce-style=3D"background-color: #fff;"><s=
pan style=3D"display: none;" data-mce-style=3D"display: none;">&nbsp;</spa=
n><div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg" style=3D"position: relative;" data-mce-style=3D"p=
osition: relative;"><div id=3D"ygrp-msg" style=3D"z-index: 1;" data-mce-st=
yle=3D"z-index: 1;"><div id=3D"ygrp-text"><p><br></p><div style=3D"color: =
#000; background-color: #fff; font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, =
Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 12px;" data-mce-st=
yle=3D"color: #000; background-color: #fff; font-family: HelveticaNeue, He=
lvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 12px=
;"><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1469198403147_12684">Sounds like someone m=
ight have added a "friction modifier" to the tranny fluid..this stuff work=
s wonders in limited slip diffs....but could play havoc with a system that=
 requires friction to work...like an OD!</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1=
_1469198403147_12683"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1469198403147=
_12682" dir=3D"ltr"><a href=3D"http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=3D=
41&amp;pcid=3D4" class=3D"enhancr2_531d28c6-21eb-c41e-6a0d-82bd891a37d1" i=
d=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1469198403147_12695" data-mce-href=3D"http://www.re=
dlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=3D41&amp;pcid=3D4">Red Line Synthetic Oil - =
Gear Oil for Differentials - Limited Slip Friction Modifier</a><br></div><=
div><br></div><div id=3D"enhancr2_531d28c6-21eb-c41e-6a0d-82bd891a37d1" cl=
ass=3D"yahoo-link-enhancr-card yahoo-link-enhancr-not-allow-cover ymail-pr=
eserve-class ymail-preserve-style" style=3D"max-width: 400px; font-family:=
 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;" dir=3D"ltr" data-mce-sty=
le=3D"max-width: 400px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif;"><a href=3D"http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=3D41&amp=
;pcid=3D4" class=3D"yahoo-enhancr-cardlink" rel=3D"noreferrer" data-mce-hr=
ef=3D"http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=3D41&amp;pcid=3D4"><table=
 class=3D"card-wrapper mce-item-table" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0"=
 border=3D"0" style=3D"max-width: 400px;" data-mce-style=3D"max-width: 400=
px;"><tbody><tr><td width=3D"400"><table class=3D"card-info mce-item-table=
" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" border=3D"0" width=3D"100%" style=3D=
"background: #fff; max-width: 400px; border-bottom: 3px solid #000000;" da=
ta-mce-style=3D"background: #fff; max-width: 400px; border-bottom: 3px sol=
id #000000;"><tbody><tr><td style=3D"vertical-align: top; padding: 16px 0 =
16px 12px;" data-mce-style=3D"vertical-align: top; padding: 16px 0 16px 12=
px;"></td><td style=3D"vertical-align: middle; padding: 16px 12px; width: =
99%;" data-mce-style=3D"vertical-align: middle; padding: 16px 12px; width:=
 99%;"><h2 class=3D"card-title" style=3D"margin: 0 0 4px 0; font-size: 16p=
x; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;" data-mce-=
style=3D"margin: 0 0 4px 0; font-size: 16px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue'=
, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">Red Line Synthetic Oil - Gear Oil for Dif=
ferentials - Limited Slip Friction Modifier</h2><div class=3D"card-descrip=
tion" style=3D"font-size: 11px; color: #999;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size:=
 11px; color: #999;">Compatible with both petroleum and synthetic gear oil=
s</div></td><td class=3D"card-share-container"></td></tr></tbody></table><=
/td></tr></tbody></table></a></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1469198403=
147_12704"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1469198403147_12704">Two=
 things I always stick to OEM specs on are fluids and spark plugs...automo=
tive engineers spend tons of time and money confirming which ones work bes=
t in their designs...so all the "marketing hype" given to "improved perfor=
mance" can lead you to mess up good designs...</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_=
ym19_1_1469198403147_12704"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1469198=
403147_12704">Rick Kinnune ...aka "Spitpilot"...spit's gone (too dangerous=
 to take the grandkids out in) but not forgotten..nor are the good times w=
ith TTSCC members!<img src=3D"https://s.yimg.com/ok/u/assets/img/emoticons=
/emo31.gif" alt=3D"*:D big grin" title=3D"*:D big grin" class=3D"yahoo-ign=
ore-inline-image" data-mce-src=3D"https://s.yimg.com/ok/u/assets/img/emoti=
cons/emo31.gif"></div></div><p><br></p></div><div style=3D"color: #fff; he=
ight: 0;" data-mce-style=3D"color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div><div =
style=3D"clear: both;" data-mce-style=3D"clear: both;"><br></div><div id=3D=
"fromDMARC" style=3D"margin-top: 10px;" data-mce-style=3D"margin-top: 10px=
;"><hr style=3D"height: 2px; border-width: 0; color: #e3e3e3; background-c=
olor: #e3e3e3;" data-mce-style=3D"height: 2px; border-width: 0; color: #e3=
e3e3; background-color: #e3e3e3;">Posted by: Rick Kinnune &lt;triumphtrave=
[email-masked]&gt;<hr style=3D"height: 2px; border-width: 0; color: #e3e3e3=
; background-color: #e3e3e3;" data-mce-style=3D"height: 2px; border-width:=
 0; color: #e3e3e3; background-color: #e3e3e3;"></div><div style=3D"clear:=
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From: ptegler <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2016 11:15:13 -0400

????

This 'engagement' is the same as the synchros on the gears. If the fit 
is not perfectly concentric it will not hold.
Plain and simple one of the two were out of round , so you only had 
partial engagement or 'grab' of the 'brake pad' material which makes 
perfect sense that it would slip under load.  The only 'oil' issues to 
watch is using 'the stinky' gear oil that will eat the brass synchros 
and thust washers.  30wt HD non-detergent motor oil or 80-90wt Hypoy 
gear oil should be used (depending on who rebuilt your o/d and how they 
set the pressure relief valve)   Even 'limited slip' oil modifiers 
should not be an issue with the o/d engagement. That will only effect 
the speed at which the synchros will grab the gears during shifting.  
Anything that will effect the o/d cone clutch and brake ring engagement  
issue will also show up as 'shreads' of ' horse hair' in your o/d filter 
as the brake pad material falls apart. That usually only shows up as a 
result of over heating of the material due to low oil levels and 
slipping/slow engagement.

ptegler

On 7/22/2016 2:26 AM, Rye Livingston wrote:
> ......pered cone gear I think it's called, which has the clutch 
> material around the outside of it, which fits into the sun gear, I 
> think I have the correct names for these, anyway, when he manually 
> pushed the two together as they would engage, there was the slightest 
> movement in the fit.  They showed it to me and there is about 1/16th 
> of a wiggle......

-- 
Paul Tegler [email-masked] www.teglerizer.com