Subject: Re: [TR] Overdrive issues

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 16:08:51 -0400

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** [email-masked] **

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From: David Porter <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 18:22:38 -0600

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What I am reading is that your car has a throttle switch installed. 
"when I'm accelerating and flip the switch for OD, it doesn't go into OD 
until I let up."

The switch on the dash activates only the solenoid which allows oil 
pressure to flow into the operating pistons and push the clutch assembly 
into the "OD" mode.  Period. Did I say Period.

So assuming you are going at least 40MPH, even 200PSI will engage 
(regardless of what the books say) All the A units are virtually 
identical. Now, having said that, Triumph did specify differences in the 
accumulator/lack of accumulator and accumulator spring.

So, you told me before that there is no throttle switch (kick down 
relay) installed, therefore it sounds to me that there is too much 
pressure at increased rpm and it is blowing the oil pressure past the 
currently installed o-rings and or piston rings. After you decrease 
engine (ergo pump speed) it re-engages. I would certainly replace the 
rings and rubber O-rings. There is no modern computer involved. This is 
a purely 'mechanical' issue. Your shop should have found the issue by now???

DaveP

On 6/10/2016 9:50 AM, Rye Livingston wrote:
> Transmission update - for those reading about this for the first time, 
> this is a 1960 TR3 with a TR4 OD transmission. Yesterday they said 
> it's basically a TR250 transmission. The whole transmission and OD was 
> rebuilt by a British car specialist of 40+ years.  His employee has 
> also been working on British cars for years, and is a transmission 
> specialist.  They've rebuilt literally 100s of transmissions and ODs. 
>  They had 4 OD cores on their bench as they were showing me different 
> parts of the system.
>
> Symptom - when I'm accelerating and flip the switch for OD, it doesn't 
> go into OD until I let up.  When in 2-3 or 4th gear, OD engaged, and 
> punch it, it will downshift like an automatic transmission while I 
> accelerate, then shift back into OD when I let up.
>
> I'm not technical enough to know how to describe all what they told 
> me, but I'll try.  First off, I forwarded the comments when I posted 
> this issue a couple of weeks ago, and keep in mind it's not the 
> easy/obvious things.  They've checked all the electrical, solenoids, 
> ground, oil type, etc.  When in OD it's not slipping.  They've tested 
> the PSI with a gauge attached while driving down the expressway, and 
> jacked up with the wheels off the ground.
>
> The issue is that it's not getting high enough PSI.  It's over 400 
> PSI, but it needs to be 490 to over 500, I think they said 520. 
>  They've taken the transmission back out, taken the OD all apart, and 
> there's nothing obvious. They've changed the piston in the pump. 
> Originally it had a pump that would shift softer because I've got a 
> torquey engine and the other pump, which they called a competition 
> pump, would be hard on the differential, but they've got that one in 
> the car now.   They showed me a seal that goes around that piston and 
> said the new seals are rubber and they got one like the original style 
> that has some sort of metal reinforcement in it to hopefully make a 
> better seal.  Not very clear I know, but hopefully that makes sense. 
>  They've checked the seats where a small ball bearing must make a 
> perfect seal, they all look perfect.  They said everything looks 
> absolutely pristine.  No scoring down passageways that might not allow 
> maximum PSI, etc.  They also showed me the lining on a Sun gear they 
> had on the beach, and said mine looked good and the rivets looked 
> original. They put it all back together, went for a test drive, and 
> that didn't fix it.
>
> They've spent literally 20+ hours on this transmission, plus several 
> more hours doing internet research on the problem.  As they described 
> everything and what they've checked, which seems like everything, I 
> said I'd send out this email to the list.  Not that they haven't tried 
> everything, but I'm hoping there may be one little nugget of info they 
> haven't tried, or a test they can run, that will lead to the solution.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rye Livingston
> Triumph Travelers Sports Car Club
> Activities Chairman
> 1960 TR3A
> PH: 530-FIND-RYE
>
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]

-- 
Dave Porter Porter Custom Bicycles 2909 Arno St. NE Albuquerque, NM 
87107 505-352-1378 Go HERE: my world www.porterbikes.com/

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    <p>What I am reading is that your car has a throttle switch
      installed. "when I'm accelerating and flip the switch for OD, it
      doesn't go into OD until I let up."</p>
    <p>The switch on the dash activates only the solenoid which allows
      oil pressure to flow into the operating pistons and push the
      clutch assembly into the "OD" mode.  Period. Did I say Period.</p>
    <p>So assuming you are going at least 40MPH, even 200PSI will engage
      (regardless of what the books say) All the A units are virtually
      identical. Now, having said that, Triumph did specify differences
      in the accumulator/lack of accumulator and accumulator spring.</p>
    <p>So, you told me before that there is no throttle switch (kick
      down relay) installed, therefore it sounds to me that there is too
      much pressure at increased rpm and it is blowing the oil pressure
      past the currently installed o-rings and or piston rings. After
      you decrease engine (ergo pump speed) it re-engages. I would
      certainly replace the rings and rubber O-rings. There is no modern
      computer involved. This is a purely 'mechanical' issue. Your shop
      should have found the issue by now???</p>
    <p>DaveP<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/10/2016 9:50 AM, Rye Livingston
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:[email-masked]"
      type="cite">
      <div>Transmission update - for those reading about this for the
        first time, this is a 1960 TR3 with a TR4 OD transmission.
        Yesterday they said it's basically a TR250 transmission. The
        whole transmission and OD was rebuilt by a British car
        specialist of 40+ years.  His employee has also been working on
        British cars for years, and is a transmission specialist.
         They've rebuilt literally 100s of transmissions and ODs.  They
        had 4 OD cores on their bench as they were showing me different
        parts of the system.</div>
      <div><br data-mce-bogus="1">
      </div>
      <div>Symptom - when I'm accelerating and flip the switch for OD,
        it doesn't go into OD until I let up.  When in 2-3 or 4th gear,
        OD engaged, and punch it, it will downshift like an automatic
        transmission while I accelerate, then shift back into OD when I
        let up.</div>
      <div><br data-mce-bogus="1">
      </div>
      <div>I'm not technical enough to know how to describe all what
        they told me, but I'll try.  First off, I forwarded the comments
        when I posted this issue a couple of weeks ago, and keep in mind
        it's not the easy/obvious things.  They've checked all the
        electrical, solenoids, ground, oil type, etc.  When in OD it's
        not slipping.  They've tested the PSI with a gauge attached
        while driving down the expressway, and jacked up with the wheels
        off the ground.  </div>
      <div><br data-mce-bogus="1">
      </div>
      <div>The issue is that it's not getting high enough PSI.  It's
        over 400 PSI, but it needs to be 490 to over 500, I think they
        said 520.  They've taken the transmission back out, taken the OD
        all apart, and there's nothing obvious. They've changed the
        piston in the pump. Originally it had a pump that would shift
        softer because I've got a torquey engine and the other pump,
        which they called a competition pump, would be hard on the
        differential, but they've got that one in the car now.   They
        showed me a seal that goes around that piston and said the new
        seals are rubber and they got one like the original style that
        has some sort of metal reinforcement in it to hopefully make a
        better seal.  Not very clear I know, but hopefully that makes
        sense.  They've checked the seats where a small ball bearing
        must make a perfect seal, they all look perfect.  They said
        everything looks absolutely pristine.  No scoring down
        passageways that might not allow maximum PSI, etc.  They also
        showed me the lining on a Sun gear they had on the beach, and
        said mine looked good and the rivets looked original. They put
        it all back together, went for a test drive, and that didn't fix
        it.<br>
      </div>
      <div><br data-mce-bogus="1">
      </div>
      <div>They've spent literally 20+ hours on this transmission, plus
        several more hours doing internet research on the problem.  As
        they described everything and what they've checked, which seems
        like everything, I said I'd send out this email to the list.
         Not that they haven't tried everything, but I'm hoping there
        may be one little nugget of info they haven't tried, or a test
        they can run, that will lead to the solution.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Thanks,</div>
      <div><br data-mce-bogus="1">
      </div>
      <div>Rye Livingston<br>
      </div>
      <div>Triumph Travelers Sports Car Club</div>
      <div>Activities Chairman</div>
      <div>1960 TR3A</div>
      <div>PH: 530-FIND-RYE</div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">
** <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a> **

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    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
      Dave Porter
      Porter Custom Bicycles
      2909 Arno St. NE
      Albuquerque, NM 87107
      505-352-1378
      Go HERE: my world <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.porterbikes.com/">www.porterbikes.com/</a>
    </div>
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From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 04:09:31 -0400

One other thing occurs to me; that might possibly have gotten overlooked.
On the A-type OD, there are 8 springs that hold the sliding clutch member in
the direct drive position.  The hydraulic cylinders compress those springs
to move the member into the OD position. The springs are two different
lengths, but it's not unusual for the longer ones to have sagged until the
difference is not obvious.

If the originally longer springs (which are also heavier wire) are
accidentally installed in the inner position (where the shorter springs
should go), you may be getting coil bind just as the OD clutch engages.
Nelson mentioned this problem in the Buckeye articles.  He saw it on the
bench while testing with air, but depending on tolerances, it might not show
up until driving.

-- Randall