Subject: Re: [TR] Overdrive issues

From: David Porter <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 21:03:21 -0600

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rye,

  then... they must get in the car. One driving and one manually moving 
the operating lever to see if there is some position other than the 
factory set point that overrides the problem. They should have done this 
by now I would think. Perhaps the case should be closely inspected for 
cracks. esp around the two operating pistons. I'm going to copy this to 
another O/D repair "guru" and see what he might add.. hope I can find 
his email..

Dave

On 6/10/2016 7:23 PM, Rye Livingston wrote:
> I'm very confident that they know what they're doing having worked on 
> hundreds of transmissions and overdrives, and they've made the 
> similar assessments that you have, that it's not that complex and they 
> are stymied why they're not finding an obvious issue.  They've replace 
> the o-rings on the pistons and checked every seal and journal hoping 
> to find some scratch or something.  And yes, at moderate speed, 40 mph 
> in 3rd or 4th, switching on the OD it shifts right in.  It's not until 
> it's under load that it drops back out.  They've done test drives with 
> the pressure gauge on it, and it doesn't sound like there's a time 
> when there is too much pressure, but IDK for sure so I'll forward your 
> email to them.
>
> Rye
>
> On Jun 10, 2016, at 05:22 PM, David Porter <[email-masked]> 
> wrote:
>
>> What I am reading is that your car has a throttle switch installed. 
>> "when I'm accelerating and flip the switch for OD, it doesn't go into 
>> OD until I let up."
>>
>> The switch on the dash activates only the solenoid which allows oil 
>> pressure to flow into the operating pistons and push the clutch 
>> assembly into the "OD" mode.  Period. Did I say Period.
>>
>> So assuming you are going at least 40MPH, even 200PSI will engage 
>> (regardless of what the books say) All the A units are virtually 
>> identical. Now, having said that, Triumph did specify differences in 
>> the accumulator/lack of accumulator and accumulator spring.
>>
>> So, you told me before that there is no throttle switch (kick down 
>> relay) installed, therefore it sounds to me that there is too much 
>> pressure at increased rpm and it is blowing the oil pressure past the 
>> currently installed o-rings and or piston rings. After you decrease 
>> engine (ergo pump speed) it re-engages. I would certainly replace the 
>> rings and rubber O-rings. There is no modern computer involved. This 
>> is a purely 'mechanical' issue. Your shop should have found the issue 
>> by now???
>>
>> DaveP
>>
>>
>> On 6/10/2016 9:50 AM, Rye Livingston wrote:
>>> Transmission update - for those reading about this for the first 
>>> time, this is a 1960 TR3 with a TR4 OD transmission. Yesterday they 
>>> said it's basically a TR250 transmission. The whole transmission and 
>>> OD was rebuilt by a British car specialist of 40+ years.  His 
>>> employee has also been working on British cars for years, and is a 
>>> transmission specialist.  They've rebuilt literally 100s of 
>>> transmissions and ODs.  They had 4 OD cores on their bench as they 
>>> were showing me different parts of the system.
>>>
>>> Symptom - when I'm accelerating and flip the switch for OD, it 
>>> doesn't go into OD until I let up.  When in 2-3 or 4th gear, OD 
>>> engaged, and punch it, it will downshift like an automatic 
>>> transmission while I accelerate, then shift back into OD when I let up.
>>>
>>> I'm not technical enough to know how to describe all what they told 
>>> me, but I'll try.  First off, I forwarded the comments when I posted 
>>> this issue a couple of weeks ago, and keep in mind it's not the 
>>> easy/obvious things.  They've checked all the electrical, solenoids, 
>>> ground, oil type, etc.  When in OD it's not slipping.  They've 
>>> tested the PSI with a gauge attached while driving down the 
>>> expressway, and jacked up with the wheels off the ground.
>>>
>>> The issue is that it's not getting high enough PSI.  It's over 400 
>>> PSI, but it needs to be 490 to over 500, I think they said 520. 
>>>  They've taken the transmission back out, taken the OD all apart, 
>>> and there's nothing obvious. They've changed the piston in the pump. 
>>> Originally it had a pump that would shift softer because I've got a 
>>> torquey engine and the other pump, which they called a competition 
>>> pump, would be hard on the differential, but they've got that one in 
>>> the car now. They showed me a seal that goes around that piston and 
>>> said the new seals are rubber and they got one like the original 
>>> style that has some sort of metal reinforcement in it to hopefully 
>>> make a better seal.  Not very clear I know, but hopefully that makes 
>>> sense.  They've checked the seats where a small ball bearing must 
>>> make a perfect seal, they all look perfect.  They said everything 
>>> looks absolutely pristine.  No scoring down passageways that might 
>>> not allow maximum PSI, etc.  They also showed me the lining on a Sun 
>>> gear they had on the beach, and said mine looked good and the rivets 
>>> looked original. They put it all back together, went for a test 
>>> drive, and that didn't fix it.
>>>
>>> They've spent literally 20+ hours on this transmission, plus several 
>>> more hours doing internet research on the problem.  As they 
>>> described everything and what they've checked, which seems like 
>>> everything, I said I'd send out this email to the list.  Not that 
>>> they haven't tried everything, but I'm hoping there may be one 
>>> little nugget of info they haven't tried, or a test they can run, 
>>> that will lead to the solution.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Rye Livingston
>>> Triumph Travelers Sports Car Club
>>> Activities Chairman
>>> 1960 TR3A
>>> PH: 530-FIND-RYE
>>>
>>>
>>> [email-masked]  **
>>>
>>> Donate:http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>> Archive:http://www.team.net/archive
>>> Forums:http://www.team.net/forums
>>> Unsubscribe/Manage:http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]
>>
>> -- 
>> Dave Porter Porter Custom Bicycles 2909 Arno St. NE Albuquerque, NM 
>> 87107 505-352-1378 Go HERE: my world www.porterbikes.com/

-- 
Dave Porter Porter Custom Bicycles 2909 Arno St. NE Albuquerque, NM 
87107 505-352-1378 Go HERE: my world www.porterbikes.com/

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    <p>rye,</p>
    <p> then... they must get in the car. One driving and one manually
      moving the operating lever to see if there is some position other
      than the factory set point that overrides the problem. They should
      have done this by now I would think. Perhaps the case should be
      closely inspected for cracks. esp around the two operating
      pistons. I'm going to copy this to another O/D repair "guru" and
      see what he might add.. hope I can find his email..</p>
    <p>Dave<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/10/2016 7:23 PM, Rye Livingston
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:[email-masked]"
      type="cite">
      <div>I'm very confident that they know what they're doing having
        worked on hundreds of transmissions and overdrives, and they've
        made the similar assessments that you have, that it's not that
        complex and they are stymied why they're not finding an
        obvious issue.  They've replace the o-rings on the pistons and
        checked every seal and journal hoping to find some scratch or
        something.  And yes, at moderate speed, 40 mph in 3rd or 4th,
        switching on the OD it shifts right in.  It's not until it's
        under load that it drops back out.  They've done test drives
        with the pressure gauge on it, and it doesn't sound like there's
        a time when there is too much pressure, but IDK for sure so I'll
        forward your email to them.</div>
      <div><br data-mce-bogus="1">
      </div>
      <div>Rye</div>
      <div><br>
        On Jun 10, 2016, at 05:22 PM, David Porter
        <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email-masked]">&lt;[email-masked]&gt;</a> wrote:<br>
        <br>
      </div>
      <div>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <div class="msg-quote" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
            <p>What I am reading is that your car has a throttle switch
              installed. "when I'm accelerating and flip the switch for
              OD, it doesn't go into OD until I let up."</p>
            <p>The switch on the dash activates only the solenoid which
              allows oil pressure to flow into the operating pistons and
              push the clutch assembly into the "OD" mode.  Period. Did
              I say Period.</p>
            <p>So assuming you are going at least 40MPH, even 200PSI
              will engage (regardless of what the books say) All the A
              units are virtually identical. Now, having said that,
              Triumph did specify differences in the accumulator/lack of
              accumulator and accumulator spring.</p>
            <p>So, you told me before that there is no throttle switch
              (kick down relay) installed, therefore it sounds to me
              that there is too much pressure at increased rpm and it is
              blowing the oil pressure past the currently installed
              o-rings and or piston rings. After you decrease engine
              (ergo pump speed) it re-engages. I would certainly replace
              the rings and rubber O-rings. There is no modern computer
              involved. This is a purely 'mechanical' issue. Your shop
              should have found the issue by now???</p>
            <p>DaveP<br>
            </p>
            <br>
            <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/10/2016 9:50 AM, Rye
              Livingston wrote:<br>
            </div>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <div>Transmission update - for those reading about this
                for the first time, this is a 1960 TR3 with a TR4 OD
                transmission. Yesterday they said it's basically a TR250
                transmission. The whole transmission and OD was rebuilt
                by a British car specialist of 40+ years.  His employee
                has also been working on British cars for years, and is
                a transmission specialist.  They've rebuilt literally
                100s of transmissions and ODs.  They had 4 OD cores on
                their bench as they were showing me different parts of
                the system.</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>Symptom - when I'm accelerating and flip the switch
                for OD, it doesn't go into OD until I let up.  When in
                2-3 or 4th gear, OD engaged, and punch it, it will
                downshift like an automatic transmission while I
                accelerate, then shift back into OD when I let up.</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>I'm not technical enough to know how to describe all
                what they told me, but I'll try.  First off, I forwarded
                the comments when I posted this issue a couple of
                weeks ago, and keep in mind it's not the easy/obvious
                things.  They've checked all the electrical, solenoids,
                ground, oil type, etc.  When in OD it's not slipping.
                 They've tested the PSI with a gauge attached while
                driving down the expressway, and jacked up with the
                wheels off the ground.  </div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>The issue is that it's not getting high enough PSI.
                 It's over 400 PSI, but it needs to be 490 to over 500,
                I think they said 520.  They've taken the transmission
                back out, taken the OD all apart, and there's nothing
                obvious. They've changed the piston in the pump.
                Originally it had a pump that would shift softer because
                I've got a torquey engine and the other pump, which they
                called a competition pump, would be hard on the
                differential, but they've got that one in the car now.  
                They showed me a seal that goes around that piston and
                said the new seals are rubber and they got one like the
                original style that has some sort of metal reinforcement
                in it to hopefully make a better seal.  Not very clear I
                know, but hopefully that makes sense.  They've checked
                the seats where a small ball bearing must make a perfect
                seal, they all look perfect.  They said everything looks
                absolutely pristine.  No scoring down passageways that
                might not allow maximum PSI, etc.  They also showed me
                the lining on a Sun gear they had on the beach, and said
                mine looked good and the rivets looked original. They
                put it all back together, went for a test drive, and
                that didn't fix it.<br>
              </div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>They've spent literally 20+ hours on this
                transmission, plus several more hours doing internet
                research on the problem.  As they described everything
                and what they've checked, which seems like everything, I
                said I'd send out this email to the list.  Not that they
                haven't tried everything, but I'm hoping there may be
                one little nugget of info they haven't tried, or a test
                they can run, that will lead to the solution.</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>Thanks,</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>Rye Livingston<br>
              </div>
              <div>Triumph Travelers Sports Car Club</div>
              <div>Activities Chairman</div>
              <div>1960 TR3A</div>
              <div>PH: 530-FIND-RYE</div>
              <br>
              <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
              <br>
              <pre>** <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email-masked]" data-mce-href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a> **

Archive: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.team.net/archive" data-mce-href="http://www.team.net/archive">http://www.team.net/archive</a>
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</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <br>
            <div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
              Dave Porter Porter Custom Bicycles 2909 Arno St. NE
              Albuquerque, NM 87107 505-352-1378 Go HERE: my world <a
                moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                href="http://www.porterbikes.com/"
                data-mce-href="http://www.porterbikes.com/"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.porterbikes.com/">www.porterbikes.com/</a></a></div>
          </div>
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    <br>
    <div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
      Dave Porter
      Porter Custom Bicycles
      2909 Arno St. NE
      Albuquerque, NM 87107
      505-352-1378
      Go HERE: my world <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.porterbikes.com/">www.porterbikes.com/</a>
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From: ptegler <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 09:18:19 -0400

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when you say 'drops out' if you ease up, does it come back in?

If so it IS simply lower pressure and the annulus shoes are not holding 
against the ring. If these shoes have worn and are thin, simply put the 
annulus is not moving far enough to hold (just like maladjusted brake shoes)

ptegler

On 6/10/2016 9:23 PM, Rye Livingston wrote:
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]

-- 
Paul Tegler [email-masked] www.teglerizer.com

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    <p>when you say 'drops out' if you ease up, does it come back in?</p>
    <p>If so it IS simply lower pressure and the annulus shoes are not
      holding against the ring. If these shoes have worn and are thin,
      simply put the annulus is not moving far enough to hold (just like
      maladjusted brake shoes)</p>
    <p>ptegler<br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/10/2016 9:23 PM, Rye Livingston

      <pre wrap="">
** <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a> **

Archive: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.team.net/archive">http://www.team.net/archive</a>
Forums: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.team.net/forums">http://www.team.net/forums</a>
</pre>
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    <br>
    <div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
      Paul Tegler
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.teglerizer.com">www.teglerizer.com</a>
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