Subject: Re: [TR] 20-50 oil

From: Michael Porter <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 01:28:45 -0600

On 3/15/2016 12:25 AM, Randall wrote:
>> What are the lists feelings about
>> Quaker State 550038310 Advanced Durability 20W-50 Motor Oil.
> I had some serious problems with Quaker State oils many years ago.  The viscosity improver would break down in just a few thousand
> miles, leaving the oil almost as thin as water and a thick ugly layer of sludge in the bottom of the pan.  (Literally had to scrape
> it out with a putty knife!)  It also allowed sludge to build up inside the rocker shaft, which could eventually block the oil to the
> front rockers.
>
>

I have a slightly different hypothesis about Quaker State, based on some 
non-automotive experience.  Back in the late `70s, I worked for one of 
the few independent foreign auto shops in W. Mich.  There were two 
elderly women, both retired schoolteachers, and both with relatively new 
Honda Civics... and they had a bit of competitiveness about them which 
extended to their cars.  One decided she wanted to use only Quaker 
State, having been suitably impressed by their advertising, I suppose.  
Within six months, the engine was larded up with sludge--everywhere.  
Shortly after the first changed to Quaker State, the other found out and 
demanded the same.  She, too, brought her car in for a valve adjustment 
in about six months, and the engine was loaded with crud.

This lodged in memory somehow, and a few years later, I was working for 
a start-up in Massachusetts which was doing coal-cleaning research.  One 
of the things that I discovered doing that job was that Pennsylvania 
coals were notoriously high in ash content (samples ran, typically, from 
22-30% by weight), and were next to impossible to clean well by physical 
methods, because much of the ash-bearing mineral content was bound 
chemically to the coal, rather than being distinct physical particles 
dispersed in the coal. Recalling the two schoolteachers' Hondas, it 
seemed possible to me that the same soil geology in Pennsylvania that 
might have been responsible for the problems with its coal might also 
apply to its oil.  Between gas blow-by and elevated temperatures, the 
mineral content in the oil could quickly become oxidized in the 
crankcase, turning the bound minerals to free mineral oxide solids, and 
if the concentrations were even a fraction of that of the area's coal, 
the detergent additives meant to keep the solids in suspension would 
never have been able to keep up with that weight and volume of solids. 
Once that happens, sludge happens.

Now, this only makes sense if the oil was actually coming from 
Pennsylvania stocks, and in the `70s, it might still have been. Now, 
it's hard to tell (especially with the recent fracking boom in 
Pennsylvania), where Quaker State's feedstocks are coming from.

Cheers.

-- 

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance....

** [email-masked] **

Archive: http://www.team.net/archive

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From: "John Macartney" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 10:34:00 -0000

Why not get your club to ship in a few 50 gallon barrels of Castrol 20W/50
Classic oils from the UK to then sell on to other clubs? No worries about
adding ZDDP and the oil is the same as ever it was - but with a few extra
little improvements to enhance its performance in old style engines. No
traces of castor oil in it now unless you opt for the truly venerable blend
known as Castrol Racing 40.

Jonmac

-----Original Message-----
From: Triumphs [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Michael
Porter
Sent: 15 March 2016 07:29
To: Randall <[email-masked]>; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [TR] 20-50 oil

On 3/15/2016 12:25 AM, Randall wrote:
> I had some serious problems with Quaker State oils many years ago.  
> The viscosity improver would break down in just a few thousand miles, 
> leaving the oil almost as thin as water and a thick ugly layer of 
> sludge in the bottom of the pan.  (Literally had to scrape it out with a
putty knife!)  It also allowed sludge to build up inside the rocker shaft,
which could eventually block the oil to the front rockers.

I have a slightly different hypothesis about Quaker State, based on some
non-automotive experience.  Back in the late `70s, I worked for one of the
few independent foreign auto shops in W. Mich.  There were two elderly
women, both retired schoolteachers, and both with relatively new Honda
Civics... and they had a bit of competitiveness about them which extended to
their cars.  One decided she wanted to use only Quaker State, having been
suitably impressed by their advertising, I suppose.  
Within six months, the engine was larded up with sludge--everywhere.  
Shortly after the first changed to Quaker State, the other found out and
demanded the same.  She, too, brought her car in for a valve adjustment in
about six months, and the engine was loaded with crud.

This lodged in memory somehow, and a few years later, I was working for a
start-up in Massachusetts which was doing coal-cleaning research.  One of
the things that I discovered doing that job was that Pennsylvania coals were
notoriously high in ash content (samples ran, typically, from 22-30% by
weight), and were next to impossible to clean well by physical methods,
because much of the ash-bearing mineral content was bound chemically to the
coal, rather than being distinct physical particles dispersed in the coal.
Recalling the two schoolteachers' Hondas, it seemed possible to me that the
same soil geology in Pennsylvania that might have been responsible for the
problems with its coal might also apply to its oil.  Between gas blow-by and
elevated temperatures, the mineral content in the oil could quickly become
oxidized in the crankcase, turning the bound minerals to free mineral oxide
solids, and if the concentrations were even a fraction of that of the area's
coal, the detergent additives meant to keep the solids in suspension would
never have been able to keep up with that weight and volume of solids. 
Once that happens, sludge happens.

Now, this only makes sense if the oil was actually coming from Pennsylvania
stocks, and in the `70s, it might still have been. Now, it's hard to tell
(especially with the recent fracking boom in Pennsylvania), where Quaker
State's feedstocks are coming from.

Cheers.

-- 

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking
distance....

Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]

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From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 10:41:25 -0500

Jonmac,
I always looked forward to the Castrol castor smell when when we used to race motorcycles. 
B

Sent from my VIC-64

On Mar 15, 2016, at 5:34 AM, John Macartney <[email-masked]> wrote:

Jonmac

-----Original Message-----

Cheers.

-- 

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

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