Subject: Re: [TR] value for insurance proposes?

From: Geo Hahn <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 10:08:14 -0700

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As anyone who watches Antiques Roadshow knows -- there is a difference
between what an item would sell for in a 'well advertised auction' and the
value to be used 'for insurance purposes'..

I like to insure for what it would take to replace it and (as Randall
notes) that would mean both buying a suitable example and then doing all
the things that still need to be done.

To get to that number I take into consideration the info on the Hagerty
Valuation Tool:

https://www.hagerty.com/apps/valuationtools/1960-Triumph-TR3A

Their numbers seem to me to be more insurance values than market place
expectations.  It's not an absolute answer but does provide some points for
interpolation based on condition and other concerns.

Geo

On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Randall <[email-masked]> wrote:

> > If the car was in a fire, flood or whatever what would it
> > cost to replace it? What should I insure it for?
>
> Given the way prices have shot up recently, I'd say more like $30k minimum
> and $40k is probably more realistic.  You still wouldn't
> get an exact replacement, of course, so you're looking for enough money to
> buy something that is close and then modify to your
> tastes.
>
> Which reminds me, I should up mine, too.  Just a minor "fender bender" in
> 2013 came close to exhausting my stated value.  Literally
> stopped at a stop light, and the pickup truck in front of me decided he
> had to back up!
>
> -- Randall
>
>
> ** [email-masked] **
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>As anyone who watches Antiques Roadshow knows -- ther=
e is a difference between what an item would sell for in a &#39;well advert=
ised auction&#39; and the value to be used &#39;for insurance purposes&#39;=
..</div><div><br></div><div>I like to insure for what it would take to repl=
ace it and (as Randall notes) that would mean both buying a suitable exampl=
e and then doing all the things that still need to be done.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>To get to that number I take into consideration the info on the H=
agerty Valuation Tool:</div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://www.hage=
rty.com/apps/valuationtools/1960-Triumph-TR3A">https://www.hagerty.com/apps=
/valuationtools/1960-Triumph-TR3A</a></div><div><br></div><div>Their number=
s seem to me to be more insurance values than market place expectations.=C2=
=A0 It&#39;s not an absolute answer but does provide some points for interp=
olation based on condition and other concerns.</div><div><br></div><div>Geo=
</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Su=
n, Dec 13, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Randall <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;</span> =
wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span>&gt; If the car was in a fir=
e, flood or whatever what would it<br>
&gt; cost to replace it? What should I insure it for?<br>
<br>
</span>Given the way prices have shot up recently, I&#39;d say more like $3=
0k minimum and $40k is probably more realistic.=C2=A0 You still wouldn&#39;=
t<br>
get an exact replacement, of course, so you&#39;re looking for enough money=
 to buy something that is close and then modify to your<br>
tastes.<br>
<br>
Which reminds me, I should up mine, too.=C2=A0 Just a minor &quot;fender be=
nder&quot; in 2013 came close to exhausting my stated value.=C2=A0 Literall=
y<br>
stopped at a stop light, and the pickup truck in front of me decided he had=
 to back up!<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
-- Randall<br>
</font></span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
** <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a> *=
*<br>
<br>
=3D"noreferrer">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/archive" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"n=
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eferrer">http://www.team.net/forums</a><br>
hs/[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">http://autox.=
team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

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** [email-masked] **

Archive: http://www.team.net/archive

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From: "Jonas Payne" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 10:16:50 -0800

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The way I look at it is not what I could sell the car for, but what it =
would cost to actually replace it.

=20

In the case of most of my collection=20

=20

1.        I would have to find a very, very good car

2.       It would more than likely need to be improved

=20

I do all of my work myself, which keeps the investments relatively low, =
but when considering number 2 above, I consider the cost of having =
somebody else do it for me.

=20

Jonas Payne

PBR Consulting Services, LLC

702.882.6711

=20

From: Triumphs [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Geo =
Hahn
Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2015 9:08 AM
To: TeriAnn J. Wakeman <[email-masked]>
Cc: Triumph List <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [TR] value for insurance proposes?

=20

As anyone who watches Antiques Roadshow knows -- there is a difference =
between what an item would sell for in a 'well advertised auction' and =
the value to be used 'for insurance purposes'..

=20

I like to insure for what it would take to replace it and (as Randall =
notes) that would mean both buying a suitable example and then doing all =
the things that still need to be done.

=20

To get to that number I take into consideration the info on the Hagerty =
Valuation Tool:

=20

=20

Their numbers seem to me to be more insurance values than market place =
expectations.  It's not an absolute answer but does provide some points =
for interpolation based on condition and other concerns.

=20

Geo

=20

On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Randall <[email-masked] =

> cost to replace it? What should I insure it for?

Given the way prices have shot up recently, I'd say more like $30k =
minimum and $40k is probably more realistic.  You still wouldn't
get an exact replacement, of course, so you're looking for enough money =
to buy something that is close and then modify to your
tastes.

Which reminds me, I should up mine, too.  Just a minor "fender bender" =
in 2013 came close to exhausting my stated value.  Literally
stopped at a stop light, and the pickup truck in front of me decided he =
had to back up!

-- Randall

=20

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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><a =
name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>The way I look at it is not what I could sell the car for, but what it =
would cost to actually replace it.<o:p></o:p></span></a></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>In the case of most of my collection <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:.75in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>=C2=A0I would have to find a very, very good =
car<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:.75in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>It would more than likely need to be improved<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>I do all of my work myself, which keeps the investments relatively low, =
but when considering number 2 above, I consider the cost of having =
somebody else do it for me.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Jonas Payne<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>PBR Consulting Services, LLC<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>702.882.6711<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> =
Triumphs [mailto:[email-masked]] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>Geo Hahn<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 13, 2015 9:08 =
AM<br><b>To:</b> TeriAnn J. Wakeman =
&lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> Triumph List =
&lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [TR] value for =
insurance proposes?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>As =
anyone who watches Antiques Roadshow knows -- there is a difference =
between what an item would sell for in a 'well advertised auction' and =
the value to be used 'for insurance =
purposes'..<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
like to insure for what it would take to replace it and (as Randall =
notes) that would mean both buying a suitable example and then doing all =
the things that still need to be done.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>To get to that number I take into consideration the =
info on the Hagerty Valuation Tool:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"https://www.hagerty.com/apps/valuationtools/1960-Triumph-TR3A">ht=
tps://www.hagerty.com/apps/valuationtools/1960-Triumph-TR3A</a><o:p></o:p=
></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Their numbers seem to me to be more insurance values =
than market place expectations.&nbsp; It's not an absolute answer but =
does provide some points for interpolation based on condition and other =
concerns.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Geo<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Sun, =
Dec 13, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Randall &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" =
target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid =
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal>&gt; If =
the car was in a fire, flood or whatever what would it<br>&gt; cost to =
replace it? What should I insure it for?<br><br>Given the way prices =
have shot up recently, I'd say more like $30k minimum and $40k is =
probably more realistic.&nbsp; You still wouldn't<br>get an exact =
replacement, of course, so you're looking for enough money to buy =
something that is close and then modify to your<br>tastes.<br><br>Which =
reminds me, I should up mine, too.&nbsp; Just a minor &quot;fender =
bender&quot; in 2013 came close to exhausting my stated value.&nbsp; =
Literally<br>stopped at a stop light, and the pickup truck in front of =
me decided he had to back up!<br><span style=3D'color:#888888'><br><span =
class=3Dhoenzb>-- Randall</span></span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><br>** <a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a> =
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From: "John Macartney" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 23:19:31 -0000

Doesn't the VTR offer a national insurance valuation service?
AFAIK, all the UK and European national club equivalents offer such a facility with selected insurers who specialise in providing classic car cover.
In my case, my first valuation was based on:

1. What I paid for the car - (which was nothing because it was a wreck) PLUS
2. The value of parts I had bought for it supported by receipts or a referenced Excel spreadsheet that could be checked
3. The known or likely number of hours work I had done on the car in my ownership up to a maximum of 500 hours. This was multiplied by a very nominal hourly unskilled labour rate, PLUs
4. The value of any work done to the car by a professional - i.e. a repaint.

The car could be valued with all that info and a minimum of 10 good quality digital pics for a very fair valuation fee. The photo valuation was the cheapest and valued my car at GBP3,500 which was fine for me.

I later went a stage further and presented the car to my club for a physical examination which cost more but it resulted in a higher valuation. What most (used to do - and this was 10 years ago at least) was to see how their car value stacked up against the value for a known concours winner or a superb example offered by a dealer and to take the average of the two figures. In my case, I paid an annual all risks premium with unlimited annual mileage of around US$175 for a car that had been officially valued and value accepted by my insurer of around US$12,000. The point I'm making is that if I'd had the car totalled, I could have bought another one just as good (or maybe even better) for about US$6k.
But that was ten plus years ago and the car wasn't a TR.

Jonmac

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From: "Dave Connitt" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 08:52:58 -0500

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TeriAnn,
I'm with Dave, you won't be able to replace your car with anything close =
to what you have in it for 20K, especially if you just go out and start =
buying parts all at one time instead of looking for deals.
I would say 35-40K would get you close to what you have now.
May you never have to find out!!
Regards,
Dave Connitt
'67 TR4A IRS=20
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: TeriAnn J. Wakeman=20
  To: Triumph List=20
  Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2015 10:54 AM
  Subject: [TR] value for insurance proposes?

  My insurance is coming due for renewal and I'm wondering if I should =
increase the agreed upon value.  It s currently set at $20,000.  =
Thoughts?

  1961 (built April 1960) TR3A. Body straight with single shallow round =
dent (no creases)about 4 inches in diameter. Paint is about 25 years =
old. Looks nice except for a couple cracks. Leather interior is also =
about 25 years old, looks really nice except tabs around edges of door =
pockets loose. Simpson seat belts.  Received a gold at recent =
Triumphest.

  About what you would expect for a well taken care of 25 year old =
restoration.

  factory hard top

  Soft top, bows, tonnu cover, bow cover, side curtains

  adjustable steering column, Motoleta steering wheel, and rack and =
pinion steering conversion

  Genuine Lucas PL-700 headlamps and genuine Lucas driving lights

  60 spoke chrome wheels

  Factory windscreen washer but with period Tudor white knob pump

  Looks factory stock as long as you don't lift the bonnet.

  Suspension Factory spec competition front springs, nylatron bushings, =
front anti sway bar, aluminum front hubs & axles from Tony Drews, =
stainless steel brake lines.

  Engine:=20

  Head: Late TR4A head with 0.060" removed from the bottom surface, =
shrouding removed from combustion chamber around spark plugs. Valve =
pockets enlarged and polished. Hardened valve seats installed inside out =
to create a venturi shaped opening. Oversize intake valves. Ports =
polished and matched.=20

  Pistons & liners: 87 mm. "Eyelashes" cut into top edge of liners below =
where the shroud was removed around the plug area.

  Crank: Cross drilled and nitrided. Harmonic dampener added.

  Cam & valve train: 280 degree cam (peaks at 6000 RPM with wide power =
peak), 56 rockwell or harder tappets, shortened push rods, lightened =
rocker arms with matched weight, special springs and retainers. Springs =
between rocker arms replaced by copper tube spacers. Special rocker =
shaft pedestals that support the ends of the shafts.

  Intake: Twin DCOE 45 carburetors on polished TWM intake manifolds. =
Short air horns. ITC air filter.

  Ignition: Mallory distributor and coil.

  Engine exterior: Wilco finned cast aluminum valve cover with Moon =
breather, optional finned aluminum oil sump with extended oil pick up, =
external oil cooler, narrow fan belt & pulleys, electric fan, =
alternator, four tube headers going into early TR2 exhaust system.

  Interior: Balanced drive train, extensive use of of ARP fasteners, oil =
passages cleaned up, oil pump reworked with new gears.

  Gearbox: TR4 full syncro with overdrive

  Limited slip rear diff with oversize magnesium finned diff cover.

  If the car was in a fire, flood or whatever what would it cost to =
replace it? What should I insure it for?

  TeriAnn

   =20

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>TeriAnn,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>I'm with Dave, you won't be able to replace your =
car with=20
anything close to what you have in it for 20K, especially if you just go =
out and=20
start buying parts all at one time instead of looking for =
deals.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>I would say 35-40K would get you close to what =
you have=20
now.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>May you never have to find out!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Dave Connitt</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>'67 TR4A IRS </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[email-masked] =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">TeriAnn J.=20
  Wakeman</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[email-masked]=20
  href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">Triumph List</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, December 13, 2015 =
10:54=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [TR] value for =
insurance=20
  proposes?</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=3D+1><TT>My insurance is coming due for =
renewal and=20
  I'm wondering if I should increase the agreed upon value.&nbsp; It s =
currently=20
  set at $20,000.&nbsp; Thoughts?<BR><BR>1961 (built April 1960) TR3A. =
Body=20
  straight with single shallow round dent (no creases)about 4 inches in=20
  diameter. Paint is about 25 years old. Looks nice except for a couple =
cracks.=20
  Leather interior is also about 25 years old, looks really nice except =
tabs=20
  around edges of door pockets loose. Simpson seat belts.&nbsp; Received =
a gold=20
  at recent Triumphest.<BR><BR>About what you would expect for a well =
taken care=20
  of 25 year old restoration.<BR><BR>factory hard top<BR><BR>Soft top, =
bows,=20
  tonnu cover, bow cover, side curtains<BR><BR>adjustable steering =
column,=20
  Motoleta steering wheel, and rack and pinion steering=20
  conversion<BR><BR>Genuine Lucas PL-700 headlamps and genuine Lucas =
driving=20
  lights<BR><BR>60 spoke chrome wheels<BR><BR>Factory windscreen washer =
but with=20
  period Tudor white knob pump<BR><BR>Looks factory stock as long as you =
don't=20
  lift the bonnet.<BR><BR>Suspension Factory spec competition front =
springs,=20
  nylatron bushings, front anti sway bar, aluminum front hubs &amp; =
axles from=20
  Tony Drews, stainless steel brake lines.<BR><BR>Engine: =
<BR></TT></FONT><FONT=20
  size=3D+1><TT>
  <P><B>Head:</B> Late TR4A head with 0.060" removed from the bottom =
surface,=20
  shrouding removed from combustion chamber around spark plugs. Valve =
pockets=20
  enlarged and polished. Hardened valve seats installed inside out to =
create a=20
  venturi shaped opening. Oversize intake valves. Ports polished and =
matched.=20
  </P>
  <P><B>Pistons &amp; liners:</B> 87 mm. "Eyelashes" cut into top edge =
of liners=20
  below where the shroud was removed around the plug area.</P>
  <P><B>Crank:</B> Cross drilled and nitrided. Harmonic dampener =
added.</P>
  <P><B>Cam &amp; valve train:</B> 280 degree cam (peaks at 6000 RPM =
with wide=20
  power peak), 56 rockwell or harder tappets, shortened push rods, =
lightened=20
  rocker arms with matched weight, special springs and retainers. =
Springs=20
  between rocker arms replaced by copper tube spacers. Special rocker =
shaft=20
  pedestals that support the ends of the shafts.<BR></P>
  <P><B>Intake:</B> Twin DCOE 45 carburetors on polished TWM intake =
manifolds.=20
  Short air horns. ITC air filter.<BR></P>
  <P></P></TT></FONT>
  <P><B>Ignition:</B> Mallory distributor and coil.</P>
  <P><B>Engine exterior:</B> Wilco finned cast aluminum valve cover with =
Moon=20
  breather, optional finned aluminum oil sump with extended oil pick up, =

  external oil cooler, narrow fan belt &amp; pulleys, electric fan, =
alternator,=20
  four tube headers going into early TR2 exhaust system.<BR></P>
  <P><B>Interior: </B>Balanced drive train, extensive use of of ARP =
fasteners,=20
  oil passages cleaned up, oil pump reworked with new gears.<BR></P>
  <P><B>Gearbox:</B> TR4 full syncro with overdrive<BR></P>
  <P><B>Limited slip rear diff</B> with oversize magnesium finned diff=20
  cover.<BR></P>
  <P>If the car was in a fire, flood or whatever what would it cost to =
replace=20
  it? What should I insure it for?<BR></P>
  <P>TeriAnn<BR></P><FONT size=3D+1><TT>
  <P><BR></P>&nbsp;</TT></FONT>=20
  <P>
  <HR>

  <P></P><BR>** [email-masked] **<BR><BR>Donate:=20
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  http://www.team.net/archive<BR>Forums:=20
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  =
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]<BR></BLO=
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