Subject: Re: [TR] what happened?

From: Rye Livingston <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 15:20:21 +0000 (GMT)

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The plugs were wet with oil, and yes it was a brand new head gasket.=0A=0A=
I suspect a head gasket too, and I'll check the oil for water.=0A=0AThanks=
,=0A=0ARye=0A=0A=0AOn Oct 15, 2015, at 06:15 AM, Chris Simo <ccsimonsen@gm=
ail.com> wrote:=0A=0AIs that water or oil? =C2=A0 =C2=A0Lots of white smok=
e would indicate to me a blown head gasket and water on the plugs.=0A=0ADi=
d you replace the head gasket with a new one when you fixed the oil ring? =
=C2=A0 Probably not recommended, but I've reused them (1x) =C2=A0in the pa=
st, but always painted them with the copper coat head gasket paint.=0A=0AI=
've blown head gaskets that leaked water into the pistons only -- no water=
 in the oil.=C2=A0 But you may want to check your oil for contamination.=0A=
=0A=0A=

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<html><body><div>The plugs were wet with oil, and yes it was a brand new head gasket.<=
/div><div><br></div><div>I suspect a head gasket too, and I'll check the o=
il for water.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div><br></div><div>Ry=
e</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>On Oct 15, 2015, at 06:15 AM, Ch=
ris Simo &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"msg-quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">Is that water or =
oil? &nbsp; &nbsp;Lots of white smoke would indicate to me a blown head ga=
sket and water on the plugs.<div><br></div><div>Did you replace the head g=
asket with a new one when you fixed the oil ring? &nbsp; Probably not reco=
mmended, but I've reused them (1x) &nbsp;in the past, but always painted t=
hem with the copper coat head gasket paint.<br><div><br></div><div>I've bl=
own head gaskets that leaked water into the pistons only -- no water in th=
e oil.&nbsp; But you may want to check your oil for contamination.</div></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 0.8ex ; border-left: 1px #ccc=
 solid ; padding-left: 1ex" data-mce-style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 0.8ex; border-=
left: 1px #ccc solid; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div><br></div></div></bloc=
kquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></body></html>=

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** [email-masked] **

Archive: http://www.team.net/archive

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From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 08:21:17 -0700

> What I really 
> don't understand is how #3 got bad too.  I didn't touch #2, 3 
> and 4 and they were prefect before?  

So obviously a new problem.  With that much oil on the plug and "tons" of smoke, I'm going to guess the piston broke somehow,
perhaps a manufacturing defect.  Normally oil smoke is blue, but the blue color isn't always obvious, especially if the cylinder
isn't running at all.

But you won't know for sure until you've got it apart.  Personally, I wouldn't bother with even a compression check, let alone leak
down.  Whatever the problem is, will be obvious with the head off and the piston out.

Don't forget to check the ring end gap.  New rings are often supplied slightly oversize, even when included in a liner set.  And a
too-tight ring can lead to a broken piston without making any obvious noise.  Lots of other possibilities of course, so just one
more thing to check.

-- Randall

---

From: Rye Livingston <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 15:27:09 +0000 (GMT) definitions=2015-10-15_09:,, signatures=0 kscore.is_bulkscore=0 kscore.compositescore=1 compositescore=0.9 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 kscore.is_spamscore=0 rbsscore=0 spamscore=0 urlsuspectscore=0.9 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1510090000 definitions=main-1510150188

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I'm not discounting any idea, but I'm pretty sure the smoke was oil they w=
ay it acted, and the 2 oil soaked plugs. =C2=A0When it was happening the m=
echanic put his hand next to the tail pipe and would have commented that i=
t was steam I think. =C2=A0Never the less, I'll check all that. =C2=A0And =
the head and block were fully serviced at the machine shop and all new alu=
minum plugs were installed. =C2=A0Interesting idea thought and I'll check =
them out.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Oct 15, 2015, at 07:33 AM, Andrew Uprichard <au=
[email-masked]> wrote:=0A=0AWhite smoke sounds like water.=C2=A0 P=
ull the dipstick and see if there is water in the oil of if it =C2=A0is re=
stricted to the pistons.=0A=C2=A0=0ABlown head gasket?=C2=A0 Possibly one =
of the aluminum plugs in the head was rotted and blew ???=0A=0AAndrew Upri=
chard=0A=C2=A0=0AFrom: Triumphs [mailto:[email-masked]] O=
n Behalf Of Rye Livingston=0ASent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 6:02 PM=0AT=
o: [email-masked]=0ASubject: [TR] what happened?=0A=C2=A0=0ALast =
week was Triumphest in San Diego. =C2=A0I'd been rebuilding my 1960 TR3 in=
 preparation for this event with a pretty tight timeline. I got the engine=
 in the car a week before and was out getting some break-in miles and it w=
as running very strong, but I discovered it was burning oil like it was go=
ing out of style. =C2=A0Took out the plugs and 2, 3 and 4 were perfect - a=
 dusty white color, and #1 was so buggered up I don't know how it was firi=
ng. =C2=A0It was such=C2=A0a mess it was clear the oil ring didn't go on r=
ight. =C2=A0So on Saturday I pulled the pan and the head, pulled #1 piston=
 out and yep, the oil wrong was not right. The red and green ends to the o=
il ring and overlapped and=C2=A0only=C2=A0one color was showing. Nothing a=
ppeared to be damaged, and in effect with it not fully expanded it wasn't =
making any kind of a seal, thus why the oil was blowing=C2=A0by and=C2=A0b=
urning up.=0A=C2=A0=0ABefore I reassembled it I put the=C2=A0piston=C2=A0i=
n as an experiment with OUT=C2=A0having=C2=A0the overlap right, to see how=
 it felt loose, and I didn't even need=C2=A0the=C2=A0ring compression coll=
ar. So then I put the collar on and tapped the piston back=C2=A0into=C2=A0=
the sleeve, then pushed it back up so the compression rings came up, but n=
ot the oil ring, and tested to check the fit. =C2=A0It was very snug, so i=
t should be all good. =C2=A0Put the collar back on and tapped it back down=
 in place, attached the connecting rod to the crank, and then had to wait.=
 =C2=A0This was Saturday and I needed a head=C2=A0gasket, which I ordered =
Monday with overnight delivery and got it at 10am Tuesday. =C2=A0We were l=
eaving for Triumphest at 8AM Wednesday, 1000 mile round trip.=0A=C2=A0=0AT=
uesday I got it all back together, torqued the head, adjusted the valves a=
nd it seemed to be running well. =C2=A0Went down to the British Motorsport=
s garage and Dave was doing a final tune up on to the carbs and timing. =C2=
=A0He had it idling for about 20 mins while he was revving it up and tunin=
g things, all good. =C2=A0Engine purring like a kitten. =C2=A0Being a new =
engine there was a little smoke as he revved it up but very little, and I =
asked him=C2=A0how=C2=A0long it would do that as the rings bed in. =C2=A0W=
ith that=C2=A0question he revved it 2-3 more times and on that 3rd time, a=
ll of a sudden TONs of while smoke come rolling out, like a cartoon, a smo=
ke screen. =C2=A0What the? =C2=A0The mechanic was flabbergasted as to what=
 could have all of a sudden happened. =C2=A0Now it was running rough and s=
pewing out white smoke. This was at about 5:30 PM, and we were both at a t=
otal loss as to what could have happened. =C2=A0I drove it home, about 15 =
miles, pulled the plugs and took the photo which I've attached. =C2=A0The =
#1 plug is on the right in the photo, and as you'll see both 1 and 3 are a=
 mess, while #2 and 4 are perfect. =C2=A0Obviously something is not right.=
 =C2=A0What I really don't understand is how #3 got bad too. =C2=A0I didn'=
t touch #2, 3 and 4 and they were prefect before? =C2=A0=0A=C2=A0=0AAnyway=
, there was no ugly noise. =C2=A0Nothing broke. It can be sorted out. =C2=A0=
But can't go on a 1000 mile drive to San Diego with it like that. =C2=A0So=
 I left the next morning at 8AM in my non-Triumph back up car and had a gr=
eat time at Triumphest, but not in my TR3.=0A=C2=A0=0AThis weekend I'm pla=
nning to do a compression test and my=C2=A0brother=C2=A0has a leak down te=
ster so I'll do that too before=C2=A0dismantling=C2=A0again.=0A=C2=A0=0AAn=
y thoughts on what may have happened? =C2=A0What I=C2=A0should=C2=A0look f=
or?=0A=C2=A0=0AAnd yes, some of you may have seen my post over a week ago =
about the OD transmission I put in at the same time with the new engine. =C2=
=A0The one that seems to either downshift by itself under load in 3rd gear=
, or not shift into OD in 4th under load. =C2=A0That clearly become a non-=
issue with this=C2=A0engine=C2=A0problem, but something I plan to get addr=
esses after the=C2=A0engine=C2=A0is squared away and running properly.=0A=C2=
=A0=0AThanks for the help,=0A=C2=A0=0ARye=0A=C2=A0=0A=C2=A0=0A=

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<html><body><div>I'm not discounting any idea, but I'm pretty sure the smoke was oil t=
hey way it acted, and the 2 oil soaked plugs. &nbsp;When it was happening =
the mechanic put his hand next to the tail pipe and would have commented t=
hat it was steam I think. &nbsp;Never the less, I'll check all that. &nbsp=
;And the head and block were fully serviced at the machine shop and all ne=
w aluminum plugs were installed. &nbsp;Interesting idea thought and I'll c=
heck them out.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br>=
</div><div>On Oct 15, 2015, at 07:33 AM, Andrew Uprichard &lt;auprichard@u=
prichard.net&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><=
div class=3D"msg-quote" lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11.0pt ; font-family: &quot;cali=
bri&quot; , &quot;sans-serif&quot; ; color: #1f497d" data-mce-style=3D"fon=
t-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'calibri' , 'sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;">Wh=
ite smoke sounds like water.&nbsp; Pull the dipstick and see if there is w=
ater in the oil of if it &nbsp;is restricted to the pistons.</span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11.0pt ; font-family: &quot;=
calibri&quot; , &quot;sans-serif&quot; ; color: #1f497d" data-mce-style=3D=
"font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'calibri' , 'sans-serif'; color: #1f497d;=
">&nbsp;</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11.0pt=
 ; font-family: &quot;calibri&quot; , &quot;sans-serif&quot; ; color: #1f4=
97d" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'calibri' , 'sans-s=
erif'; color: #1f497d;">Blown head gasket?&nbsp; Possibly one of the alumi=
num plugs in the head was rotted and blew ???<br><br>Andrew Uprichard</spa=
n></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11.0pt ; font-famil=
y: &quot;calibri&quot; , &quot;sans-serif&quot; ; color: #1f497d" data-mce=
-style=3D"font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'calibri' , 'sans-serif'; color:=
 #1f497d;">&nbsp;</span></p><div><div style=3D"border: none ; border-top: =
solid #b5c4df 1.0pt ; padding: 3.0pt 0in 0in 0in" data-mce-style=3D"border=
: none; border-top: solid #b5c4df 1.0pt; padding: 3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;"><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><strong><span style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt ; font-family:=
 &quot;tahoma&quot; , &quot;sans-serif&quot;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size:=
 10.0pt; font-family: 'tahoma' , 'sans-serif';">From:</span></strong><span=
 style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt ; font-family: &quot;tahoma&quot; , &quot;sans=
-serif&quot;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'tahoma' ,=
 'sans-serif';"> Triumphs [mailto:[email-masked]] <strong=
>On Behalf Of </strong>Rye Livingston<br><strong>Sent:</strong> Wednesday,=
 October 14, 2015 6:02 PM<br><strong>To:</strong> <a href=3D"mailto:triump=
[email-masked]" data-mce-href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">triump=
[email-masked]</a><br><strong>Subject:</strong> [TR] what happened?</sp=
an></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p><div><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal"><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;helvetica&quot; , &quot;sans-serif=
&quot;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: 'helvetica' , 'sans-serif';">Last w=
eek was Triumphest in San Diego. &nbsp;I'd been rebuilding my 1960 TR3 in =
preparation for this event with a pretty tight timeline. I got the engine =
in the car a week before and was out getting some break-in miles and it wa=
s running very strong, but I discovered it was burning oil like it was goi=
ng out of style. &nbsp;Took out the plugs and 2, 3 and 4 were perfect - a =
dusty white color, and #1 was so buggered up I don't know how it was firin=
g. &nbsp;It was such&nbsp;a mess it was clear the oil ring didn't go on ri=
ght. &nbsp;So on Saturday I pulled the pan and the head, pulled #1 piston =
out and yep, the oil wrong was not right. The red and green ends to the oi=
l ring and overlapped and&nbsp;only&nbsp;one color was showing. Nothing ap=
peared to be damaged, and in effect with it not fully expanded it wasn't m=
aking any kind of a seal, thus why the oil was blowing&nbsp;by and&nbsp;bu=
rning up.</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p></div><div=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;helvetica&quot; =
, &quot;sans-serif&quot;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: 'helvetica' , 'sa=
ns-serif';">Before I reassembled it I put the&nbsp;piston&nbsp;in as an ex=
periment with OUT&nbsp;having&nbsp;the overlap right, to see how it felt l=
oose, and I didn't even need&nbsp;the&nbsp;ring compression collar. So the=
n I put the collar on and tapped the piston back&nbsp;into&nbsp;the sleeve=
, then pushed it back up so the compression rings came up, but not the oil=
 ring, and tested to check the fit. &nbsp;It was very snug, so it should b=
e all good. &nbsp;Put the collar back on and tapped it back down in place,=
 attached the connecting rod to the crank, and then had to wait. &nbsp;Thi=
s was Saturday and I needed a head&nbsp;gasket, which I ordered Monday wit=
h overnight delivery and got it at 10am Tuesday. &nbsp;We were leaving for=
 Triumphest at 8AM Wednesday, 1000 mile round trip.</span></p></div><div><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span st=
yle=3D"font-family: &quot;helvetica&quot; , &quot;sans-serif&quot;" data-m=
ce-style=3D"font-family: 'helvetica' , 'sans-serif';">Tuesday I got it all=
 back together, torqued the head, adjusted the valves and it seemed to be =
running well. &nbsp;Went down to the British Motorsports garage and Dave w=
as doing a final tune up on to the carbs and timing. &nbsp;He had it idlin=
g for about 20 mins while he was revving it up and tuning things, all good=
. &nbsp;Engine purring like a kitten. &nbsp;Being a new engine there was a=
 little smoke as he revved it up but very little, and I asked him&nbsp;how=
&nbsp;long it would do that as the rings bed in. &nbsp;With that&nbsp;ques=
tion he revved it 2-3 more times and on that 3rd time, all of a sudden TON=
s of while smoke come rolling out, like a cartoon, a smoke screen. &nbsp;W=
hat the? &nbsp;The mechanic was flabbergasted as to what could have all of=
 a sudden happened. &nbsp;Now it was running rough and spewing out white s=
moke. This was at about 5:30 PM, and we were both at a total loss as to wh=
at could have happened. &nbsp;I drove it home, about 15 miles, pulled the =
plugs and took the photo which I've attached. &nbsp;The #1 plug is on the =
right in the photo, and as you'll see both 1 and 3 are a mess, while #2 an=
d 4 are perfect. &nbsp;Obviously something is not right. &nbsp;What I real=
ly don't understand is how #3 got bad too. &nbsp;I didn't touch #2, 3 and =
4 and they were prefect before? &nbsp;</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal">&nbsp;</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily: &quot;helvetica&quot; , &quot;sans-serif&quot;" data-mce-style=3D"f=
ont-family: 'helvetica' , 'sans-serif';">Anyway, there was no ugly noise. =
&nbsp;Nothing broke. It can be sorted out. &nbsp;But can't go on a 1000 mi=
le drive to San Diego with it like that. &nbsp;So I left the next morning =
at 8AM in my non-Triumph back up car and had a great time at Triumphest, b=
ut not in my TR3.</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p></=
div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;helvetic=
a&quot; , &quot;sans-serif&quot;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: 'helvetic=
a' , 'sans-serif';">This weekend I'm planning to do a compression test and=
 my&nbsp;brother&nbsp;has a leak down tester so I'll do that too before&nb=
sp;dismantling&nbsp;again.</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nb=
sp;</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family: &quot=
;helvetica&quot; , &quot;sans-serif&quot;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: =
'helvetica' , 'sans-serif';">Any thoughts on what may have happened? &nbsp=
;What I&nbsp;should&nbsp;look for?</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal">&nbsp;</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y: &quot;helvetica&quot; , &quot;sans-serif&quot;" data-mce-style=3D"font-=
family: 'helvetica' , 'sans-serif';">And yes, some of you may have seen my=
 post over a week ago about the OD transmission I put in at the same time =
with the new engine. &nbsp;The one that seems to either downshift by itsel=
f under load in 3rd gear, or not shift into OD in 4th under load. &nbsp;Th=
at clearly become a non-issue with this&nbsp;engine&nbsp;problem, but some=
thing I plan to get addresses after the&nbsp;engine&nbsp;is squared away a=
nd running properly.</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p=
></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;helve=
tica&quot; , &quot;sans-serif&quot;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: 'helve=
tica' , 'sans-serif';">Thanks for the help,</span></p></div><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"fon=
t-family: &quot;helvetica&quot; , &quot;sans-serif&quot;" data-mce-style=3D=
"font-family: 'helvetica' , 'sans-serif';">Rye</span></p></div><div><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p></d=
iv><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5.0pt ; margin-bottom: 5.0pt" dat=
a-mce-style=3D"margin-top: 5.0pt; margin-bottom: 5.0pt;"><div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5.0pt ; margin-bottom: 5.0pt" data-mce-style=3D"margi=
n-top: 5.0pt; margin-bottom: 5.0pt;"><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><img=
 id=3D"_x0000_i1025" src=3D"cid:ac8e5905-10df-42e8-8944-02bdfc89f0b1@iclou=
d.com"                                                                    =
                                                               alt=3D"" wi=
dth=3D"1632" height=3D"1224" data-inline-image=3D"true" data-mce-src=3D"ci=
d:[email-masked]"                        =
                                                                          =
                                ></p></div></div></blockquote></div></bloc=
kquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><style class=3D"_message=
-styles">.msg-quote .shape {}=0A</style></body></html>=

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From: Rye Livingston <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 15:34:52 +0000 (GMT)

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Thanks for the response and I'll check it all out this weekend and let you know what I find, which I think will be a head gasket failure.

Rye

On Oct 15, 2015, at 08:21 AM, Randall <[email-masked]> wrote:

What I really

-- Randall

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<html><body><div>Thanks for the response and I'll check it all out this weekend and le=
t you know what I find, which I think will be a head gasket failure.</div>=
<div><br></div><div>Rye</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br>On Oct=
 15, 2015, at 08:21 AM, Randall &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:<br><br>=
</div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"msg-quote"><div class=3D=
"_stretch"><span class=3D"body-text-content"><span class=3D"body-text-cont=
ent"> <br><br></span></span><blockquote class=3D"quoted-plain-text" type=3D=
"cite">What I really</blockquote><blockquote class=3D"quoted-plain-text" t=
ype=3D"cite">don't understand is how #3 got bad too. I didn't touch #2, 3<=
/blockquote><blockquote class=3D"quoted-plain-text" type=3D"cite">and 4 an=
d they were prefect before?</blockquote><span class=3D"body-text-content">=
<br>So obviously a new problem. With that much oil on the plug and "tons" =
of smoke, I'm going to guess the piston broke somehow,<br>perhaps a manufa=
cturing defect. Normally oil smoke is blue, but the blue color isn't alway=
s obvious, especially if the cylinder<br>isn't running at all.<br><br>But =
you won't know for sure until you've got it apart. Personally, I wouldn't =
bother with even a compression check, let alone leak<br>down. Whatever the=
 problem is, will be obvious with the head off and the piston out.<br><br>=
Don't forget to check the ring end gap. New rings are often supplied sligh=
tly oversize, even when included in a liner set. And a<br>too-tight ring c=
an lead to a broken piston without making any obvious noise. Lots of other=
 possibilities of course, so just one<br>more thing to check.<br><br>-- Ra=
ndall<br><br></span></div></div></blockquote></div></body></html>=

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 12:31:16 -0500 (CDT)

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<div style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 12px"><div>=
the o/d issue sounds like too tight a tollerance in the position of your ca=
se mounted interlock switch.<br />A little shift in rod position and the sw=
tich disconnects (not pushed in far enough) or.. it's simply loos connectio=
n and the harness being moved under load (engine lean) shifting connectors/=
contact <br /></div><div>&nbsp; <br /></div><span>Paul Tegler<br />ptegler@=
verizon.net<br />www.teglerizer.com</span><div>&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"bo=
rder-top:1px solid #bcbcbc;margin:5px 0px;"></div><span style=3D"font-size:=
12;font-family:arial;color:#000000;">On 10/15/15, <span>Andrew Uprichard&lt=
;[email-masked]&gt;</span> wrote:</span><div>&nbsp;</div><div sty=
le=3D"font-size:12;font-family:arial;color:#000000;"><div class=3D"WordSect=
ion1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Just by the way =E2=80=93 I would=
n=E2=80=99t say &nbsp;=E2=80=9C;</span><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt;font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">#2 and 4 are perfect=E2=
=80=9D.&nbsp; They look kinda black to me.</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans=
-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:14.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Andrew U=
prichard</span><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;=
;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p><div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:=
solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Triumphs [<a class=3D"parsedLink" hr=
ef=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">mailto:triu=
[email-masked]</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Rye Livingston<br /><b=
>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 14, 2015 6:02 PM<br /><b>To:</b> <a class=3D"=
parsedEmail" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">triu=
[email-masked]</a><br /><b>Subject:</b> [TR] what happened?</span></p>=
</div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><s=
pan style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Last=
 week was Triumphest in San Diego. &nbsp;I'd been rebuilding my 1960 TR3 in=
 preparation for this event with a pretty tight timeline. I got the engine =
in the car a week before and was out getting some break-in miles and it was=
 running very strong, but I discovered it was burning oil like it was going=
 out of style. &nbsp;Took out the plugs and 2, 3 and 4 were perfect - a dus=
ty white color, and #1 was so buggered up I don't know how it was firing. &=
nbsp;It was such&nbsp;a mess it was clear the oil ring didn't go on right. =
&nbsp;So on Saturday I pulled the pan and the head, pulled #1 piston out an=
d yep, the oil wrong was not right. The red and green ends to the oil ring =
and overlapped and&nbsp;only&nbsp;one color was showing. Nothing appeared t=
o be damaged, and in effect with it not fully expanded it wasn't making any=
 kind of a seal, thus why the oil was blowing&nbsp;by and&nbsp;burning up.<=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p></div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;">Before I reassembled it I put the&nbsp;piston&nbsp;in as an ex=
periment with OUT&nbsp;having&nbsp;the overlap right, to see how it felt lo=
ose, and I didn't even need&nbsp;the&nbsp;ring compression collar. So then =
I put the collar on and tapped the piston back&nbsp;into&nbsp;the sleeve, t=
hen pushed it back up so the compression rings came up, but not the oil rin=
g, and tested to check the fit. &nbsp;It was very snug, so it should be all=
 good. &nbsp;Put the collar back on and tapped it back down in place, attac=
hed the connecting rod to the crank, and then had to wait. &nbsp;This was S=
aturday and I needed a head&nbsp;gasket, which I ordered Monday with overni=
ght delivery and got it at 10am Tuesday. &nbsp;We were leaving for Triumphe=
st at 8AM Wednesday, 1000 mile round trip.</span></p></div><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font=
-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Tuesday I got it all =
back together, torqued the head, adjusted the valves and it seemed to be ru=
nning well. &nbsp;Went down to the British Motorsports garage and Dave was =
doing a final tune up on to the carbs and timing. &nbsp;He had it idling fo=
r about 20 mins while he was revving it up and tuning things, all good. &nb=
sp;Engine purring like a kitten. &nbsp;Being a new engine there was a littl=
e smoke as he revved it up but very little, and I asked him&nbsp;how&nbsp;l=
ong it would do that as the rings bed in. &nbsp;With that&nbsp;question he =
revved it 2-3 more times and on that 3rd time, all of a sudden TONs of whil=
e smoke come rolling out, like a cartoon, a smoke screen. &nbsp;What the? &=
nbsp;The mechanic was flabbergasted as to what could have all of a sudden h=
appened. &nbsp;Now it was running rough and spewing out white smoke. This w=
as at about 5:30 PM, and we were both at a total loss as to what could have=
 happened. &nbsp;I drove it home, about 15 miles, pulled the plugs and took=
 the photo which I've attached. &nbsp;The #1 plug is on the right in the ph=
oto, and as you'll see both 1 and 3 are a mess, while #2 and 4 are perfect.=
 &nbsp;Obviously something is not right. &nbsp;What I really don't understa=
nd is how #3 got bad too. &nbsp;I didn't touch #2, 3 and 4 and they were pr=
efect before? &nbsp;</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>=
</div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetic=
a&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Anyway, there was no ugly noise. &nbsp;Noth=
ing broke. It can be sorted out. &nbsp;But can't go on a 1000 mile drive to=
 San Diego with it like that. &nbsp;So I left the next morning at 8AM in my=
 non-Triumph back up car and had a great time at Triumphest, but not in my =
TR3.</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sa=
ns-serif&quot;">This weekend I'm planning to do a compression test and my&n=
bsp;brother&nbsp;has a leak down tester so I'll do that too before&nbsp;dis=
mantling&nbsp;again.</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>=
</div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetic=
a&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Any thoughts on what may have happened? &nb=
sp;What I&nbsp;should&nbsp;look for?</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal">&nbsp;</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">And yes, some of you may ha=
ve seen my post over a week ago about the OD transmission I put in at the s=
ame time with the new engine. &nbsp;The one that seems to either downshift =
by itself under load in 3rd gear, or not shift into OD in 4th under load. &=
nbsp;That clearly become a non-issue with this&nbsp;engine&nbsp;problem, bu=
t something I plan to get addresses after the&nbsp;engine&nbsp;is squared a=
way and running properly.</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp=
;</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Thanks for the help,</span></p></div><=
div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><spa=
n style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Rye</s=
pan></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p></div><div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p></div><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margi=
n-bottom:5.0pt"><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.=
0pt"><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><img height=3D"1224" id=3D"_x0000_i10=
25" src=3D"driver?nimlet=3Ddownload&amp;fid=3DINBOX&amp;mid=3D110956&amp;pa=
rtIndex=3D0.1&amp;disp=3Dinline" width=3D"1632" /></p></div></div></blockqu=
ote></div></blockquote></div></div><br /><hr size=3D"1" /><br /><br />** <a=
 class=3D"parsedEmail" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_b=
lank">[email-masked]</a> **<br /><br />Donate: <a class=3D"parsedL=
ink" href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.=
team.net/donate.html</a><br />Archive: <a class=3D"parsedLink" href=3D"http=
://www.team.net/archive" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/archive</a><=
br />Forums: <a class=3D"parsedLink" href=3D"http://www.team.net/forums" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/forums</a><br />Unsubscribe/Manage: <a =
class=3D"parsedLink" href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs=
/[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/mailman/optio=
ns/triumphs/[email-masked]</a><br /></div></div>

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From: Rye Livingston <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 18:12:48 +0000 (GMT)

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They were cross hatched. =C2=A0And, after I took out the #1 piston, I hone=
d that cylinder again to get a fresh cross hatch pattern before installing=
 the piston.=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Oct 15, 2015, at 10:45 AM, Brad Kahler <bkahler=
[email-masked]> wrote:=0A=0ALots of white smoke doesn't always indicate water=
/coolant.=C2=A0 On my TR4 engine that had been freshly rebuilt when I boug=
ht it I had billowing clouds of white smoke.=C2=A0 After several head gask=
et changes I finally realized that the new liners (liner & piston kit) had=
 not been cross hatched so the rings didn't seat.=C2=A0 This allowed for m=
assive amounts of oil to be sucked up and out the exhaust.=C2=A0 Result wa=
s white smoke.=0A=0ASo the question is, were the cylinder liners cross hat=
ched so the rings would seal?=0A=0A=0AOn Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 9:15 AM, Chr=
is Simo <[email-masked]> wrote:=0AIs that water or oil? =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
Lots of white smoke would indicate to me a blown head gasket and water on =
the plugs.=0A=0ADid you replace the head gasket with a new one when you fi=
xed the oil ring? =C2=A0 Probably not recommended, but I've reused them (1=
x) =C2=A0in the past, but always painted them with the copper coat head ga=
sket paint.=0A=0AI've blown head gaskets that leaked water into the piston=
s only -- no water in the oil.=C2=A0 But you may want to check your oil fo=
r contamination.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A** [email-masked] **=0A=0A=
hive=0AForums: http://www.team.net/forums=0AUnsubscribe/Manage: http://aut=
ox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]=0A=

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<html><body><div>They were cross hatched. &nbsp;And, after I took out the #1 piston, I=
 honed that cylinder again to get a fresh cross hatch pattern before insta=
lling the piston.</div><div><br data-mce-bogus=3D"1"></div><div><br data-m=
ce-bogus=3D"1"></div><div><br>On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:45 AM, Brad Kahler &l=
t;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite=
"><div class=3D"msg-quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">Lots of white smoke doesn't al=
ways indicate water/coolant.&nbsp; On my TR4 engine that had been freshly =
rebuilt when I bought it I had billowing clouds of white smoke.&nbsp; Afte=
r several head gasket changes I finally realized that the new liners (line=
r &amp; piston kit) had not been cross hatched so the rings didn't seat.&n=
bsp; This allowed for massive amounts of oil to be sucked up and out the e=
xhaust.&nbsp; Result was white smoke.<div><br></div><div>So the question i=
s, were the cylinder liners cross hatched so the rings would seal?</div><d=
iv><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, O=
ct 15, 2015 at 9:15 AM, Chris Simo <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:[email-masked]" data-mce-href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">ccsim=
[email-masked]</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 0.8ex; border-left: 1px #ccc solid; padding-left: =
1ex;" data-mce-style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 0.8ex; border-left: 1px #ccc solid; =
padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr">Is that water or oil? &nbsp; &nbsp;Lo=
ts of white smoke would indicate to me a blown head gasket and water on th=
e plugs.<div><br></div><div>Did you replace the head gasket with a new one=
 when you fixed the oil ring? &nbsp; Probably not recommended, but I've re=
used them (1x) &nbsp;in the past, but always painted them with the copper =
coat head gasket paint.<br><div><br></div><div>I've blown head gaskets tha=
t leaked water into the pistons only -- no water in the oil.&nbsp; But you=
 may want to check your oil for contamination.</div></div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 0.8ex; border-left: 1px #ccc solid; padding-left:=
 1ex;" data-mce-style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 0.8ex; border-left: 1px #ccc solid;=
 padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div><br></div></div></blockquote></div></div></=
div><br><br> <br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div><div class=3D"_s=
tretch"><span class=3D"body-text-content"><br>** <a href=3D"mailto:triumph=
[email-masked]" data-mce-href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">triumph=
[email-masked]</a> **<br><br>Donate: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/dona=
te.html" data-mce-href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html">http://www.team=
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ata-mce-href=3D"http://www.team.net/archive">http://www.team.net/archive</=
a><br>Forums: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/forums" data-mce-href=3D"http=
://www.team.net/forums">http://www.team.net/forums</a><br>Unsubscribe/Mana=
ge: <a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]=
" data-mce-href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/ryel@mac=
.com">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]</a><br><=
/span></div></div></blockquote></div></body></html>=

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