Subject: [TR] update - the mystery continues

From: Rye Livingston <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 00:25:25 +0000 (GMT)

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The mystery continues.=0A=0AFirst off my bad. =C2=A0It's clearly blue-ish =
smoke, not white. =C2=A0It's=C2=A0burning oil not water.=0A=0ASo today I c=
leaned up the plugs and fired it up again to get it up to normal operating=
 temperature, and the smoke was billowing down the street like police had =
been throwing out tear gas canisters. =C2=A0Your comment was if it lingers=
 for a moment or three it's oil. This cloud is lingering for 10-20 plus se=
conds as it was rolling down the street.=0A=0AGot it warmed up and first d=
id a leak down test. =C2=A0Rotated the engine to get each piston at the to=
p of it's stroke with the values closed for ignition, then put 100 psi=C2=A0=
into each cylinder and 1, 3 and 4 held steady at 98psi.=C2=A0#2 held stead=
y at 95psi. =C2=A0No issues uncovered.=0A=0ANext was a compression test. =C2=
=A0Engine still warm,=C2=A0throttle wide open, all four came up to 150 lbs=
 plus 1-2 lbs. No issues uncovered.=0A=0ASo our thoughts at this point is =
it can't be a head gasket if we're getting good compression numbers and go=
od leak down test numbers.=0A=0AAdditional info - When I bought this TR4a =
head for this rebuild, it had been serviced many years ago but never insta=
lled on an engine. =C2=A0The machine shop tore it down and installed new h=
ardened valve seats and checked everything out - supposedly. =C2=A0I was t=
old the valves, valve springs and valve guides were all good, but now we'r=
e thinking this whole thing could be related to bad valve guides.=0A=0ANot=
 that this should matter, but I also installed a big bore kit so sleeves a=
nd pistons are all new.=0A=0AI expect the head will come off again but hop=
e to zero in on the problem before dismantling it.=0A=0ARegards,=0ARye=0A=0A=
=0A=0A=0AOn Oct 15, 2015, at 07:46 PM, ptegler <[email-masked]> wrote=
:=0A=0Aseconded...=0A=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 blue is 'burning' oil, not just su=
per heated oil blowby which is usually white.=0AIf it dissipates almost im=
mediately it's water, if it lingers for a moment or three.... its oil=0A=0A=
ptegler=0A=0AOn 10/15/2015 10:51 AM, Brad Kahler wrote:=0ALots of white sm=
oke doesn't always indicate water/coolant.=C2=A0 On my TR4 engine that had=
 been freshly rebuilt when I bought it I had billowing clouds of white smo=
ke.=C2=A0 After several head gasket changes I finally realized that the ne=
w liners (liner & piston kit) had not been cross hatched so the rings didn=
't seat.=C2=A0 This allowed for massive amounts of oil to be sucked up and=
 out the exhaust.=C2=A0 Result was white smoke.=0A=0ASo the question is, w=
ere the cylinder liners cross hatched so the rings would seal?=0A=0A=0AOn =
Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 9:15 AM, Chris Simo=C2=A0<[email-masked]>=C2=A0=
wrote:=0AIs that water or oil? =C2=A0 =C2=A0Lots of white smoke would indi=
cate to me a blown head gasket and water on the plugs.=0A=0ADid you replac=
e the head gasket with a new one when you fixed the oil ring? =C2=A0 Proba=
bly not recommended, but I've reused them (1x) =C2=A0in the past, but alwa=
ys painted them with the copper coat head gasket paint.=0A=0AI've blown he=
ad gaskets that leaked water into the pistons only -- no water in the oil.=
=C2=A0 But you may want to check your oil for contamination.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=
=0A=0A=0A=0A** [email-masked] **=0A=0ADonate: http://www.team.net=
/donate.html=0AArchive: http://www.team.net/archive=0AForums: http://www.t=
eam.net/forums=0AUnsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options=
/triumphs/[email-masked]=0A=0A--=C2=A0=0APaul Tegler=C2=A0ptegler@ver=
izon.net=C2=A0www.teglerizer.com=

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<html><body><div style=3D"font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-ser=
if;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica,=
 sans-serif;">The mystery continues.</div><div style=3D"font-family: SFNST=
ext, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-fami=
ly: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;"><br></div><div sty=
le=3D"font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;" dat=
a-mce-style=3D"font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-se=
rif;">First off my bad. &nbsp;It's clearly blue-ish smoke, not white. &nbs=
p;It's&nbsp;burning oil not water.</div><div style=3D"font-family: SFNSTex=
t, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family=
: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;"><br></div><div style=
=3D"font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;" data-=
mce-style=3D"font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-seri=
f;">So today I cleaned up the plugs and fired it up again to get it up to =
normal operating temperature, and the smoke was billowing down the street =
like police had been throwing out tear gas canisters. &nbsp;Your comment w=
as if it lingers for a moment or three it's oil. This cloud is lingering f=
or 10-20 plus seconds as it was rolling down the street.</div><div style=3D=
"font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;" data-mce=
-style=3D"font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;"=
><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetic=
a, sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue',=
 Helvetica, sans-serif;">Got it warmed up and first did a leak down test. =
&nbsp;Rotated the engine to get each piston at the top of it's stroke with=
 the values closed for ignition, then put 100 psi&nbsp;into each cylinder =
and 1, 3 and 4 held steady at 98psi.&nbsp;#2 held steady at 95psi. &nbsp;N=
o issues uncovered.</div><div style=3D"font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica N=
eue', Helvetica, sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: SFNSText, 'He=
lvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family=
: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"fo=
nt-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;">Next was a =
compression test. &nbsp;Engine still warm,&nbsp;throttle wide open, all fo=
ur came up to 150 lbs plus 1-2 lbs. No issues uncovered.</div><div style=3D=
"font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;" data-mce=
-style=3D"font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;"=
><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetic=
a, sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue',=
 Helvetica, sans-serif;">So our thoughts at this point is it can't be a he=
ad gasket if we're getting good compression numbers and good leak down tes=
t numbers.</div><div style=3D"font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Hel=
vetica, sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica N=
eue', Helvetica, sans-serif;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: SFNSTex=
t, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family=
: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;">Additional info - Wh=
en I bought this TR4a head for this rebuild, it had been serviced many yea=
rs ago but never installed on an engine. &nbsp;The machine shop tore it do=
wn and installed new hardened valve seats and checked everything out - sup=
posedly. &nbsp;I was told the valves, valve springs and valve guides were =
all good, but now we're thinking this whole thing could be related to bad =
valve guides.</div><div style=3D"font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetic=
a Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: SFNS=
Text, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-fam=
ily: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;">Not that this sho=
uld matter, but I also installed a big bore kit so sleeves and pistons are=
 all new.</div><div style=3D"font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helv=
etica, sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Ne=
ue', Helvetica, sans-serif;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: SFNSText=
, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family:=
 SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;">I expect the head wil=
l come off again but hope to zero in on the problem before dismantling it.=
</div><div style=3D"font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sa=
ns-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helv=
etica, sans-serif;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvet=
ica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: SFNSText=
, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;">Regards,</div><div style=3D"fo=
nt-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;" data-mce-st=
yle=3D"font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;">Ry=
e</div><div style=3D"font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, s=
ans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Hel=
vetica, sans-serif;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: SFNSText, 'Helve=
tica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: SFNSTex=
t, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;"><br></div><div class=3D"x-app=
le-signature" style=3D"font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica,=
 sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', H=
elvetica, sans-serif;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: SFNSText, 'Hel=
vetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: SFNST=
ext, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;"><br>On Oct 15, 2015, at 07:=
46 PM, ptegler &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div style=3D=
"font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;" data-mce=
-style=3D"font-family: SFNSText, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;"=
><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"msg-quote">seconded...<br>&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; blue is 'burning' oil, not just super heated oil blowby which =
is usually white.<br>If it dissipates almost immediately it's water, if it=
 lingers for a moment or three.... its oil<br><br>ptegler<br><br><div clas=
s=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 10/15/2015 10:51 AM, Brad Kahler wrote:<br></div>=
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">Lots of white smoke doesn't alw=
ays indicate water/coolant.&nbsp; On my TR4 engine that had been freshly r=
ebuilt when I bought it I had billowing clouds of white smoke.&nbsp; After=
 several head gasket changes I finally realized that the new liners (liner=
 &amp; piston kit) had not been cross hatched so the rings didn't seat.&nb=
sp; This allowed for massive amounts of oil to be sucked up and out the ex=
haust.&nbsp; Result was white smoke.<div><br></div><div>So the question is=
, were the cylinder liners cross hatched so the rings would seal?</div><di=
v><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Oc=
t 15, 2015 at 9:15 AM, Chris Simo&nbsp;<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:[email-masked]" data-mce-href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">c=
[email-masked]</a>&gt;</span>&nbsp;wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; bord=
er-left-color: #cccccc; border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex;" data=
-mce-style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-le=
ft-color: #cccccc; border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D=
"ltr">Is that water or oil? &nbsp; &nbsp;Lots of white smoke would indicat=
e to me a blown head gasket and water on the plugs.<div><br></div><div>Did=
 you replace the head gasket with a new one when you fixed the oil ring? &=
nbsp; Probably not recommended, but I've reused them (1x) &nbsp;in the pas=
t, but always painted them with the copper coat head gasket paint.<br><div=
><br></div><div>I've blown head gaskets that leaked water into the pistons=
 only -- no water in the oil.&nbsp; But you may want to check your oil for=
 contamination.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: #cccccc; border-left-sty=
le: solid; padding-left: 1ex;" data-mce-style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: #cccccc; border-left-style: s=
olid; padding-left: 1ex;"><br></blockquote></div></div></div><br><br><br><=
/blockquote></div><br></div></div></div><br><fieldset class=3D"mimeAttachm=
entHeader"></fieldset><br><pre style=3D"white-space: pre-wrap !important; =
word-wrap: normal !important;" data-mce-style=3D"white-space: pre-wrap !im=
portant; word-wrap: normal !important;">** <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbrev=
iated" href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" data-mce-href=3D"mailto:tri=
[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a> **=0A=0ADonate: <a class=
=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html" data-m=
ce-href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html">http://www.team.net/donate.htm=
l</a>=0AArchive: <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://www.tea=
m.net/archive" data-mce-href=3D"http://www.team.net/archive">http://www.te=
am.net/archive</a>=0AForums: <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"ht=
tp://www.team.net/forums" data-mce-href=3D"http://www.team.net/forums">htt=
p://www.team.net/forums</a>=0AUnsubscribe/Manage: <a class=3D"moz-txt-link=
-freetext" href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/ptegler@=
verizon.net" data-mce-href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triump=
hs/[email-masked]">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/pte=
[email-masked]</a>=0A</pre></blockquote><br><div class=3D"moz-signature"=
>--&nbsp;<br>Paul Tegler&nbsp;<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D=
"mailto:[email-masked]" data-mce-href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">=
[email-masked]</a>&nbsp;<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D=
"http://www.teglerizer.com" data-mce-href=3D"http://www.teglerizer.com">ww=
w.teglerizer.com</a></div></div></blockquote></div></body></html>=

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** [email-masked] **

Archive: http://www.team.net/archive

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---

From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 15:01:20 -0700

> No valve seals on a TR3 engine.  Could be worn valve guides 
> but in my experience those usually manifest themselves by 
> allowing oil to seep into the cylinder when the engine is off 
> and produce blue smoke briefly at start-up.

An exception might be if someone has fitted the external oil feed to the rocker shaft.  I installed one years ago on an engine with
badly worn guides, and it did indeed suck an incredible amount of oil past the intake guides.  I literally got a warning letter from
the CA equivalent of the EPA, due to excess smoke!

Randall

---

From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 18:32:35 -0700

> In the TR3, is it possible to drop the pan and push a 
> piston/rod assembly out the top? 

Yup, piece of cake.  I've even been known to change liners that way.  Lots easier than pulling the engine, which requires a fair
amount of body removal first.

-- Randall Y

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:18:06 +0000 (UTC)

Ditto on that.  My most recent engine rebuild smoked like crazy.  I pulled the head to inspect and found, with the shop light at exactly the right position, that one of the piston liners was cracked.  Pulled the pistons and liners (piston was scored badly) and the jugs, replaced with County pistons, rings, liner and all is well.

'Course, I had overheating problems as well.  Does this engine overheat in addition to the smoke?

Terry Smith, '59 TR3A  TS 58667
New Hampshire

----- Original Message -----
From: "Randall" <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2015 9:32:35 PM
Subject: Re: [TR] update - the mystery continues

-- Randall Y

---

From: Rye Livingston <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 00:36:06 +0000 (GMT) MailServer15F138.23967-NewcastleMail15F138-0-975f0b719612 definitions=2015-10-21_02:,, signatures=0 kscore.is_bulkscore=0 kscore.compositescore=1 compositescore=0.9 suspectscore=4 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 kscore.is_spamscore=0 rbsscore=0 spamscore=0 urlsuspectscore=0.9 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1510090000 definitions=main-1510210010

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No it's not overheating.=0A=0AI've got a construction projecting going on =
this week, I plan to pull off the head and pull out the pistons probably n=
ext week. =C2=A0I'll update everyone regarding what I find.=0A=0ARye=0A=0A=
=0A=0AOn Oct 20, 2015, at 02:22 PM, [email-masked] wrote:=0A=0ADitto =
on that. My most recent engine rebuild smoked like crazy. I pulled the hea=
d to inspect and found, with the shop light at exactly the right position,=
 that one of the piston liners was cracked. Pulled the pistons and liners =
(piston was scored badly) and the jugs, replaced with County pistons, ring=
s, liner and all is well.=0A=0A'Course, I had overheating problems as well=
. Does this engine overheat in addition to the smoke?=0A=0ATerry Smith, '5=
9 TR3A TS 58667=0ANew Hampshire=0A=0A----- Original Message -----=0AFrom: =
"Randall" <[email-masked]>=0ACc: [email-masked]=0ASent: Satu=
rday, October 17, 2015 9:32:35 PM=0ASubject: Re: [TR] update - the mystery=
 continues=0A=0A=0AIn the TR3, is it possible to drop the pan and push a=0A=
piston/rod assembly out the top?=0A=0AYup, piece of cake. I've even been k=
nown to change liners that way. Lots easier than pulling the engine, which=
 requires a fair=0Aamount of body removal first.=0A=0A-- Randall Y =0A=0A=0A=
** [email-masked] **=0A=0ADonate: http://www.team.net/donate.html=
=0AArchive: http://www.team.net/archive=0AForums: http://www.team.net/foru=
ms=0AUnsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/te=
[email-masked]=0A=0A** [email-masked] **=0A=0ADonate: http://w=
ww.team.net/donate.html=0AArchive: http://www.team.net/archive=0AForums: h=
ttp://www.team.net/forums=0AUnsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mail=
man/options/triumphs/[email-masked]=0A=

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<html><body><div></div><div>No it's not overheating.</div><div><br data-mce-bogus=3D"1=
"></div><div>I've got a construction projecting going on this week, I plan=
 to pull off the head and pull out the pistons probably next week. &nbsp;I=
'll update everyone regarding what I find.</div><div><br data-mce-bogus=3D=
"1"></div><div>Rye</div><div><br data-mce-bogus=3D"1"></div><div><br data-=
mce-bogus=3D"1"></div><div class=3D"x-apple-signature"></div><div><br>On O=
ct 20, 2015, at 02:22 PM, [email-masked] wrote:<br><br></div><div><bl=
ockquote type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"msg-quote"><div class=3D"_stretch"><s=
pan class=3D"body-text-content">Ditto on that. My most recent engine rebui=
ld smoked like crazy. I pulled the head to inspect and found, with the sho=
p light at exactly the right position, that one of the piston liners was c=
racked. Pulled the pistons and liners (piston was scored badly) and the ju=
gs, replaced with County pistons, rings, liner and all is well.<br><br>'Co=
urse, I had overheating problems as well. Does this engine overheat in add=
ition to the smoke?<br><br>Terry Smith, '59 TR3A TS 58667<br>New Hampshire=
<br><br>----- Original Message -----<br>From: "Randall" &lt;[email-masked]=
r.com&gt;<br>Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" data-mce-href=3D=
"mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a><br>Sent: Satu=
rday, October 17, 2015 9:32:35 PM<br>Subject: Re: [TR] update - the myster=
y continues<br><br><br><blockquote class=3D"quoted-plain-text" type=3D"cit=
e">In the TR3, is it possible to drop the pan and push a</blockquote><bloc=
kquote class=3D"quoted-plain-text" type=3D"cite">piston/rod assembly out t=
he top?</blockquote><br>Yup, piece of cake. I've even been known to change=
 liners that way. Lots easier than pulling the engine, which requires a fa=
ir<br>amount of body removal first.<br><br>-- Randall Y <br><br><br>** <a =
href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" data-mce-href=3D"mailto:triumphs@a=
utox.team.net">[email-masked]</a> **<br><br>Donate: <a href=3D"ht=
tp://www.team.net/donate.html" data-mce-href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate=
.html">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>Archive: <a href=3D"http://w=
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