Subject: Re: [TR] update - the mystery continues

From: Geo Hahn <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 18:45:17 -0700

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--001a113fc4046bd6440522431006

I recall you initially had a problem with an incorrectly installed oil ring
(overlapped instead of end-to-end).  Sure sounds like that again since leak
down and compression tests reveal nothing.

I have a hard time imagining valve guides could cause the massive blue
smoke you're seeing - but a failed oil ring sure could.

Geo

On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 5:25 PM, Rye Livingston <[email-masked]> wrote:

> The mystery continues.
>
> First off my bad.  It's clearly blue-ish smoke, not white.  It's burning
> oil not water.
>
> So today I cleaned up the plugs and fired it up again to get it up to
> normal operating temperature, and the smoke was billowing down the street
> like police had been throwing out tear gas canisters.  Your comment was if
> it lingers for a moment or three it's oil. This cloud is lingering for
> 10-20 plus seconds as it was rolling down the street.
>
> Got it warmed up and first did a leak down test.  Rotated the engine to
> get each piston at the top of it's stroke with the values closed for
> ignition, then put 100 psi into each cylinder and 1, 3 and 4 held steady at
> 98psi. #2 held steady at 95psi.  No issues uncovered.
>
> Next was a compression test.  Engine still warm, throttle wide open, all
> four came up to 150 lbs plus 1-2 lbs. No issues uncovered.
>
> So our thoughts at this point is it can't be a head gasket if we're
> getting good compression numbers and good leak down test numbers.
>
> Additional info - When I bought this TR4a head for this rebuild, it had
> been serviced many years ago but never installed on an engine.  The machine
> shop tore it down and installed new hardened valve seats and checked
> everything out - supposedly.  I was told the valves, valve springs and
> valve guides were all good, but now we're thinking this whole thing could
> be related to bad valve guides.
>
> Not that this should matter, but I also installed a big bore kit so
> sleeves and pistons are all new.
>
> I expect the head will come off again but hope to zero in on the problem
> before dismantling it.
>
> Regards,
> Rye
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 15, 2015, at 07:46 PM, ptegler <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
> seconded...
>     blue is 'burning' oil, not just super heated oil blowby which is
> usually white.
> If it dissipates almost immediately it's water, if it lingers for a moment
> or three.... its oil
>
> ptegler
>
> On 10/15/2015 10:51 AM, Brad Kahler wrote:
>
> Lots of white smoke doesn't always indicate water/coolant.  On my TR4
> engine that had been freshly rebuilt when I bought it I had billowing
> clouds of white smoke.  After several head gasket changes I finally
> realized that the new liners (liner & piston kit) had not been cross
> hatched so the rings didn't seat.  This allowed for massive amounts of oil
> to be sucked up and out the exhaust.  Result was white smoke.
>
> So the question is, were the cylinder liners cross hatched so the rings
> would seal?
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 9:15 AM, Chris Simo <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
>> Is that water or oil?    Lots of white smoke would indicate to me a blown
>> head gasket and water on the plugs.
>>
>> Did you replace the head gasket with a new one when you fixed the oil
>> ring?   Probably not recommended, but I've reused them (1x)  in the past,
>> but always painted them with the copper coat head gasket paint.
>>
>> I've blown head gaskets that leaked water into the pistons only -- no
>> water in the oil.  But you may want to check your oil for contamination.
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ** [email-masked] **
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/archive
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]
>
>
> --
> Paul Tegler [email-masked] www.teglerizer.com
>
>
>
> ** [email-masked] **
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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>
>

--001a113fc4046bd6440522431006
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I recall you initially had a problem with an incorrec=
tly installed oil ring (overlapped instead of end-to-end).=C2=A0 Sure sound=
s like that again since leak down and compression tests reveal nothing.</di=
v><div><br></div><div>I have a hard time imagining valve guides could cause=
 the massive blue smoke you&#39;re seeing - but a failed oil ring sure coul=
d.</div><div><br></div><div>Geo</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 5:25 PM, Rye Livingston <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">ryel=
@mac.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><di=
v style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-s=
erif">The mystery continues.</div><div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;=
Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div style=3D"font-fam=
ily:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif">First off my =
bad.=C2=A0 It&#39;s clearly blue-ish smoke, not white.=C2=A0 It&#39;s=C2=A0=
burning oil not water.</div><div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvet=
ica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:SF=
NSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif">So today I cleaned =
up the plugs and fired it up again to get it up to normal operating tempera=
ture, and the smoke was billowing down the street like police had been thro=
wing out tear gas canisters.=C2=A0 Your comment was if it lingers for a mom=
ent or three it&#39;s oil. This cloud is lingering for 10-20 plus seconds a=
s it was rolling down the street.</div><div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&=
quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div style=3D"fon=
t-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif">Got it w=
armed up and first did a leak down test.=C2=A0 Rotated the engine to get ea=
ch piston at the top of it&#39;s stroke with the values closed for ignition=
, then put 100 psi=C2=A0into each cylinder and 1, 3 and 4 held steady at 98=
psi.=C2=A0#2 held steady at 95psi.=C2=A0 No issues uncovered.</div><div sty=
le=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif"=
><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,He=
lvetica,sans-serif">Next was a compression test.=C2=A0 Engine still warm,=
=C2=A0throttle wide open, all four came up to 150 lbs plus 1-2 lbs. No issu=
es uncovered.</div><div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&=
quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&q=
uot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif">So our thoughts at this poin=
t is it can&#39;t be a head gasket if we&#39;re getting good compression nu=
mbers and good leak down test numbers.</div><div style=3D"font-family:SFNST=
ext,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div style=
=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif">A=
dditional info - When I bought this TR4a head for this rebuild, it had been=
 serviced many years ago but never installed on an engine.=C2=A0 The machin=
e shop tore it down and installed new hardened valve seats and checked ever=
ything out - supposedly.=C2=A0 I was told the valves, valve springs and val=
ve guides were all good, but now we&#39;re thinking this whole thing could =
be related to bad valve guides.</div><div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&qu=
ot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div style=3D"font-=
family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif">Not that t=
his should matter, but I also installed a big bore kit so sleeves and pisto=
ns are all new.</div><div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neu=
e&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,=
&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif">I expect the head will com=
e off again but hope to zero in on the problem before dismantling it.</div>=
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&=
quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif">Regards,</div><div style=3D"font-family:SFNSTex=
t,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif">Rye</div><div style=3D"f=
ont-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br></=
div><div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica=
,sans-serif"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica N=
eue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:SFNSTex=
t,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>On Oct 15, 2015, at =
07:46 PM, ptegler &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_bla=
nk">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div style=3D"font-fami=
ly:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif"><blockquote ty=
pe=3D"cite"><div>seconded...<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 blue is &#39;burning&#39=
; oil, not just super heated oil blowby which is usually white.<br>If it di=
ssipates almost immediately it&#39;s water, if it lingers for a moment or t=
hree.... its oil<br><br>ptegler<br><br><div>On 10/15/2015 10:51 AM, Brad Ka=
hler wrote:<br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">Lots of whi=
te smoke doesn&#39;t always indicate water/coolant.=C2=A0 On my TR4 engine =
that had been freshly rebuilt when I bought it I had billowing clouds of wh=
ite smoke.=C2=A0 After several head gasket changes I finally realized that =
the new liners (liner &amp; piston kit) had not been cross hatched so the r=
ings didn&#39;t seat.=C2=A0 This allowed for massive amounts of oil to be s=
ucked up and out the exhaust.=C2=A0 Result was white smoke.<div><br></div><=
div>So the question is, were the cylinder liners cross hatched so the rings=
 would seal?</div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote">On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 9:15 AM, Chris Simo=C2=A0<span dir=3D"ltr=
">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">ccsimonsen@=
gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>=C2=A0wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204=
,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><div dir=3D"ltr">I=
s that water or oil? =C2=A0 =C2=A0Lots of white smoke would indicate to me =
a blown head gasket and water on the plugs.<div><br></div><div>Did you repl=
ace the head gasket with a new one when you fixed the oil ring? =C2=A0 Prob=
ably not recommended, but I&#39;ve reused them (1x) =C2=A0in the past, but =
always painted them with the copper coat head gasket paint.<br><div><br></d=
iv><div>I&#39;ve blown head gaskets that leaked water into the pistons only=
 -- no water in the oil.=C2=A0 But you may want to check your oil for conta=
mination.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;pad=
ding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;bord=
er-left-style:solid"><br></blockquote></div></div></div><br><br><br></block=
quote></div><br></div></div></div><br><fieldset></fieldset><br><pre style=
=3D"white-space:pre-wrap!important">** <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]=
m.net" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a> **

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</pre></blockquote><br><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div>=
--=C2=A0<br>Paul Tegler=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=
=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://www.teglerizer.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">www.teglerizer.com</a></div></font></span></div></blo=
ckquote></div></div><br><br>
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---

From: "Reihing, Randall S." <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 17:55:16 +0000

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	boundary="_000_5DF59F06A5E05E47A21C0E72057265D9EC825CC0msgdb11utadutol_"

--_000_5DF59F06A5E05E47A21C0E72057265D9EC825CC0msgdb11utadutol_
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The following is just my opinion and is only presented to see if it can hel=
p, not to criticize anyone.

I know the amount of smoke that can be generated because of worn valve seal=
s sounds a little difficult to believe but in aviation when we want to lay =
down a serious smoke cloud, for example during allow pass at a pancake flyi=
n, all it takes is a small aquarium pump, a few ounces of oil injected into=
 one of the exhaust tubes and it's hard to believe how much smoke that will=
 generate. Our company once had a late model Ford sedan, small v8, used by =
the reps. One of those smoked so bad it was cited, while parked, by local p=
olice for creating a public nuisance with the smoke it was generating. Turn=
ed out to be badly worn valve seals. When they were replaced with new Perfe=
ct Circle valve seals the issue was resolved. That is not to say it is not =
the oil rings causing the problem but it's so much easier to check the leas=
t expensive, easiest area to access first, then it is to pull the head and/=
or tear down the engine to check the rings. At least if you replace a few o=
il seals, without having to remove the head, and it still smokes then for s=
ure the next step is the valve guides and maybe the rings.

Several years ago we had a vintage twin engine aircraft land at our EAA Clu=
bs airport that had flown all the way from England to attend the big AirVen=
ture airshow in Oshkosh, WI. The right engine had lost oil pressure and the=
 pilot made an emergency landing. The local IA mechanic, (The highest mecha=
nic rating there is) examined the aircraft and determined it was a faulty o=
il pressure gauge. The pilot, in a surplus of well understood caution, poli=
tely decided that was not possible, had the entire right engine removed, cr=
ated, and shipped back to England where it was determined the engine was fi=
ne with no oil pressure issues. The engine was returned one month later, re=
installed and when it was started the oil pressure gauge for that engine in=
dicated zero oil pressure. That was when they replaced the gauge. A few hou=
rs later the pilot departed, did a low pass over the field and waved at all=
 of us as we took photos and waved back, then he turned and took up an east=
erly heading toward Canada and the route home to England. Unfortunately, he=
 missed the airshow and spent several thousands of dollars when he could ha=
ve at least tried checking the gauge on a bench with air pressure to see if=
 it was faulty, before he had the engine removed, crated and shipped. There=
 are times when it is valid to check the easiest and least expensive first.=
 It's not always the cure and if it's not it does at least remove one more =
uncertainty.

These are must my thoughts based on 40 years building 800 HP supercharged r=
acing engines and being a pilot who maintains his own aircraft and two vint=
age 1960 Triumph TR3A's.
________________________________
From: Triumphs [[email-masked]] on behalf of Geo Hahn [ahw=
[email-masked]]
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 9:45 PM
To: Rye Livingston
Cc: Triumphs
Subject: Re: [TR] update - the mystery continues

I recall you initially had a problem with an incorrectly installed oil ring=
 (overlapped instead of end-to-end).  Sure sounds like that again since lea=
k down and compression tests reveal nothing.

I have a hard time imagining valve guides could cause the massive blue smok=
e you're seeing - but a failed oil ring sure could.

Geo

ac.com>> wrote:
The mystery continues.

First off my bad.  It's clearly blue-ish smoke, not white.  It's burning oi=
l not water.

So today I cleaned up the plugs and fired it up again to get it up to norma=
l operating temperature, and the smoke was billowing down the street like p=
olice had been throwing out tear gas canisters.  Your comment was if it lin=
gers for a moment or three it's oil. This cloud is lingering for 10-20 plus=
 seconds as it was rolling down the street.

Got it warmed up and first did a leak down test.  Rotated the engine to get=
 each piston at the top of it's stroke with the values closed for ignition,=
 then put 100 psi into each cylinder and 1, 3 and 4 held steady at 98psi. #=
2 held steady at 95psi.  No issues uncovered.

Next was a compression test.  Engine still warm, throttle wide open, all fo=
ur came up to 150 lbs plus 1-2 lbs. No issues uncovered.

So our thoughts at this point is it can't be a head gasket if we're getting=
 good compression numbers and good leak down test numbers.

Additional info - When I bought this TR4a head for this rebuild, it had bee=
n serviced many years ago but never installed on an engine.  The machine sh=
op tore it down and installed new hardened valve seats and checked everythi=
ng out - supposedly.  I was told the valves, valve springs and valve guides=
 were all good, but now we're thinking this whole thing could be related to=
 bad valve guides.

Not that this should matter, but I also installed a big bore kit so sleeves=
 and pistons are all new.

I expect the head will come off again but hope to zero in on the problem be=
fore dismantling it.

Regards,
Rye

erizon.net>> wrote:

seconded...
    blue is 'burning' oil, not just super heated oil blowby which is usuall=
y white.
If it dissipates almost immediately it's water, if it lingers for a moment =
or three.... its oil

ptegler

On 10/15/2015 10:51 AM, Brad Kahler wrote:
Lots of white smoke doesn't always indicate water/coolant.  On my TR4 engin=
e that had been freshly rebuilt when I bought it I had billowing clouds of =
white smoke.  After several head gasket changes I finally realized that the=
 new liners (liner & piston kit) had not been cross hatched so the rings di=
dn't seat.  This allowed for massive amounts of oil to be sucked up and out=
 the exhaust.  Result was white smoke.

So the question is, were the cylinder liners cross hatched so the rings wou=
ld seal?

[email-masked]>> wrote:
Is that water or oil?    Lots of white smoke would indicate to me a blown h=
ead gasket and water on the plugs.

Did you replace the head gasket with a new one when you fixed the oil ring?=
   Probably not recommended, but I've reused them (1x)  in the past, but al=
ways painted them with the copper coat head gasket paint.

I've blown head gaskets that leaked water into the pistons only -- no water=
 in the oil.  But you may want to check your oil for contamination.

verizon.net

--
com<http://www.teglerizer.com>

[email-masked]

--_000_5DF59F06A5E05E47A21C0E72057265D9EC825CC0msgdb11utadutol_
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html dir=3D"ltr">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
1">
<style type=3D"text/css" id=3D"owaParaStyle"></style>
</head>
<body fpstyle=3D"1" ocsi=3D"0">
<div style=3D"direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size: =
10pt;">The following is just my opinion and is only presented to see if it =
can help, not to criticize anyone.&nbsp;
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I know the amount of smoke that can be generated because of worn valve=
 seals sounds a little difficult to believe but in aviation when we want to=
 lay down a serious smoke cloud, for example during allow pass at a pancake=
 flyin, all it takes is a small
 aquarium pump, a few ounces of oil injected into one of the exhaust tubes =
and it's hard to believe how much smoke that will generate. Our company onc=
e had a late model Ford sedan, small v8, used by the reps. One of those smo=
ked so bad it was cited, while parked,
 by local police for creating a public nuisance with the smoke it was gener=
ating. Turned out to be badly worn valve seals. When they were replaced wit=
h new Perfect Circle valve seals the issue was resolved. That is not to say=
 it is not the oil rings causing
 the problem but it's so much easier to check the least expensive, easiest =
area to access first, then it is to pull the head and/or tear down the engi=
ne to check the rings. At least if you replace a few oil seals, without hav=
ing to remove the head, and it still
 smokes then for sure the next step is the valve guides and maybe the rings=
.&nbsp;
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Several years ago we had a vintage twin engine aircraft land at our EA=
A Clubs airport that had flown all the way from England to attend the big A=
irVenture airshow in Oshkosh, WI. The right engine had lost oil pressure an=
d the pilot made an emergency landing.
 The local IA mechanic, (The highest mechanic rating there is) examined the=
 aircraft and determined it was a faulty oil pressure gauge. The pilot, in =
a surplus of well understood caution, politely decided that was not possibl=
e, had the entire right engine removed,
 crated, and shipped back to England where it was determined the engine was=
 fine with no oil pressure issues. The engine was returned one month later,=
 reinstalled and when it was started the oil pressure gauge for that engine=
 indicated zero oil pressure. That
 was when they replaced the gauge. A few hours later the pilot departed, di=
d a low pass over the field and waved at all of us as we took photos and wa=
ved back, then he turned and took up an easterly heading toward Canada and =
the route home to England. Unfortunately,
 he missed the airshow and spent several thousands of dollars when he could=
 have at least tried checking the gauge on a bench with air pressure to see=
 if it was faulty, before he had the engine removed, crated and shipped. Th=
ere are times when it is valid to
 check the easiest and least expensive first. It's not always the cure and =
if it's not it does at least remove one more uncertainty.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>These are must my thoughts based on 40 years building 800 HP superchar=
ged racing engines and being a pilot who maintains his own aircraft and two=
 vintage 1960 Triumph TR3A's.&nbsp;<br>
<div style=3D"font-family: Times New Roman; color: #000000; font-size: 16px=
">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRpF161369" style=3D"direction: ltr;"><font face=3D"Tahoma" si=
ze=3D"2" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> Triumphs [[email-masked]=
am.net] on behalf of Geo Hahn [[email-masked]]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 16, 2015 9:45 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Rye Livingston<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Triumphs<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [TR] update - the mystery continues<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>I recall you initially had a problem with an incorrectly installed oil=
 ring (overlapped instead of end-to-end).&nbsp; Sure sounds like that again=
 since leak down and compression tests reveal nothing.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have a hard time imagining valve guides could cause the massive blue=
 smoke you're seeing - but a failed oil ring sure could.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Geo</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 5:25 PM, Rye Livingston =
<span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;<=
/span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1=
px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,san=
s-serif">The mystery continues.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,san=
s-serif">First off my bad.&nbsp; It's clearly blue-ish smoke, not white.&nb=
sp; It's&nbsp;burning oil not water.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,san=
s-serif">So today I cleaned up the plugs and fired it up again to get it up=
 to normal operating temperature, and the smoke was billowing down the stre=
et like police had been throwing out tear gas
 canisters.&nbsp; Your comment was if it lingers for a moment or three it's=
 oil. This cloud is lingering for 10-20 plus seconds as it was rolling down=
 the street.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,san=
s-serif">Got it warmed up and first did a leak down test.&nbsp; Rotated the=
 engine to get each piston at the top of it's stroke with the values closed=
 for ignition, then put 100 psi&nbsp;into each cylinder
 and 1, 3 and 4 held steady at 98psi.&nbsp;#2 held steady at 95psi.&nbsp; N=
o issues uncovered.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,san=
s-serif">Next was a compression test.&nbsp; Engine still warm,&nbsp;throttl=
e wide open, all four came up to 150 lbs plus 1-2 lbs. No issues uncovered.=
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,san=
s-serif">So our thoughts at this point is it can't be a head gasket if we'r=
e getting good compression numbers and good leak down test numbers.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,san=
s-serif">Additional info - When I bought this TR4a head for this rebuild, i=
t had been serviced many years ago but never installed on an engine.&nbsp; =
The machine shop tore it down and installed new hardened
 valve seats and checked everything out - supposedly.&nbsp; I was told the =
valves, valve springs and valve guides were all good, but now we're thinkin=
g this whole thing could be related to bad valve guides.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,san=
s-serif">Not that this should matter, but I also installed a big bore kit s=
o sleeves and pistons are all new.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,san=
s-serif">I expect the head will come off again but hope to zero in on the p=
roblem before dismantling it.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,san=
s-serif">Regards,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,san=
s-serif">Rye</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
On Oct 15, 2015, at 07:46 PM, ptegler &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ptegler@verizon=
.net" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,san=
s-serif">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>seconded...<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; blue is 'burning' oil, not just super heated oil blowby =
which is usually white.<br>
If it dissipates almost immediately it's water, if it lingers for a moment =
or three.... its oil<br>
<br>
ptegler<br>
<br>
<div>On 10/15/2015 10:51 AM, Brad Kahler wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Lots of white smoke doesn't always indicate water/coolant.=
&nbsp; On my TR4 engine that had been freshly rebuilt when I bought it I ha=
d billowing clouds of white smoke.&nbsp; After several head gasket changes =
I finally realized that the new liners (liner
 &amp; piston kit) had not been cross hatched so the rings didn't seat.&nbs=
p; This allowed for massive amounts of oil to be sucked up and out the exha=
ust.&nbsp; Result was white smoke.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So the question is, were the cylinder liners cross hatched so the ring=
s would seal?</div>
<div><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 9:15 AM, Chris Simo&nbsp=
;<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_b=
lank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;</span>&nbsp;wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; paddin=
g-left:1ex; border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204); border-left-width:1px; bord=
er-left-style:solid">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Is that water or oil? &nbsp; &nbsp;Lots of white smoke wou=
ld indicate to me a blown head gasket and water on the plugs.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Did you replace the head gasket with a new one when you fixed the oil =
ring? &nbsp; Probably not recommended, but I've reused them (1x) &nbsp;in t=
he past, but always painted them with the copper coat head gasket paint.<br=
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I've blown head gaskets that leaked water into the pistons only -- no =
water in the oil.&nbsp; But you may want to check your oil for contaminatio=
n.</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; paddin=
g-left:1ex; border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204); border-left-width:1px; bord=
er-left-style:solid">
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset target=3D"_blank"></fieldset><br>
<pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap!important">** <a href=3D"mailto:triumphs=
@autox.team.net" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a> **=0A=
=0A=
//www.team.net/donate.html</a>=0A=
Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/archive" target=3D"_blank">http://w=
ww.team.net/archive</a>=0A=
Forums: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/forums" target=3D"_blank">http://www=
.team.net/forums</a>=0A=
hs/[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/mailman/opt=
ions/triumphs/[email-masked]</a>=0A=
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
<div>--&nbsp;<br>
Paul Tegler&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">p=
[email-masked]</a>&nbsp;<a href=3D"http://www.teglerizer.com" target=3D=
"_blank">www.teglerizer.com</a></div>
</font></span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
** <a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">triumphs@au=
tox.team.net</a> **<br>
<br>
et=3D"_blank">
Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/archive" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/archive</a><br>
Forums: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/forums" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D=
"_blank">http://www.team.net/forums</a><br>
hs/[email-masked]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: Geo Hahn <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 12:45:13 -0700

--===============3522023734464445818==

--001a113ff176970fa60522522650

No valve seals on a TR3 engine.  Could be worn valve guides but in my
experience those usually manifest themselves by allowing oil to seep into
the cylinder when the engine is off and produce blue smoke briefly at
start-up.

Once the head is off (and possibly the pistons examined) I expect the
answer will be more apparent.

Geo

On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Reihing, Randall S. <
[email-masked]> wrote:

> The following is just my opinion and is only presented to see if it can
> help, not to criticize anyone.
>
> I know the amount of smoke that can be generated because of worn valve
> seals sounds a little difficult to believe...
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>No valve seals on a TR3 engine.=C2=A0 Could be worn v=
alve guides but in my experience those usually manifest themselves by allow=
ing oil to seep into the cylinder when the engine is off and produce blue s=
moke briefly at start-up.</div><div><br></div><div>Once the head is off (an=
d possibly the pistons examined) I expect the answer will be more apparent.=
</div><div><br></div><div>Geo=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 =
at 10:55 AM, Reihing, Randall S. <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ra=
[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a=
>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">

<div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Tahoma;font-size:10pt;direction:=
ltr">The following is just my opinion and is only presented to see if it ca=
n help, not to criticize anyone.=C2=A0
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I know the amount of smoke that can be generated because of worn valve=
 seals sounds a little difficult to believe...<br></div></div></div></block=
quote></div></div></div>

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From: Dave <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 13:16:31 -0700

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Interesting approach, Randall.  Eliminate the possibility of a valve guide p=
roblem by installing seals.  If the smoke clears, it's a problem with the gu=
ides, if it doesn't look to the rings. =20

Seems like a reasonable place to start,
Dave H.

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 17, 2015, at 10:55 AM, Reihing, Randall S. <Randall.Reihing@utoledo=
.edu> wrote:
>=20
> The following is just my opinion and is only presented to see if it can he=
lp, not to criticize anyone.=20
>=20
> I know the amount of smoke that can be generated because of worn valve sea=
ls sounds a little difficult to believe but in aviation when we want to lay d=
own a serious smoke cloud, for example during allow pass at a pancake flyin,=
 all it takes is a small aquarium pump, a few ounces of oil injected into on=
e of the exhaust tubes and it's hard to believe how much smoke that will gen=
erate. Our company once had a late model Ford sedan, small v8, used by the r=
eps. One of those smoked so bad it was cited, while parked, by local police f=
or creating a public nuisance with the smoke it was generating. Turned out t=
o be badly worn valve seals. When they were replaced with new Perfect Circle=
 valve seals the issue was resolved. That is not to say it is not the oil ri=
ngs causing the problem but it's so much easier to check the least expensive=
, easiest area to access first, then it is to pull the head and/or tear down=
 the engine to check the rings. At least if you replace a few oil seals, wit=
hout having to remove the head, and it still smokes then for sure the next s=
tep is the valve guides and maybe the rings.=20
>=20
> Several years ago we had a vintage twin engine aircraft land at our EAA Cl=
ubs airport that had flown all the way from England to attend the big AirVen=
ture airshow in Oshkosh, WI. The right engine had lost oil pressure and the p=
ilot made an emergency landing. The local IA mechanic, (The highest mechanic=
 rating there is) examined the aircraft and determined it was a faulty oil p=
ressure gauge. The pilot, in a surplus of well understood caution, politely d=
ecided that was not possible, had the entire right engine removed, crated, a=
nd shipped back to England where it was determined the engine was fine with n=
o oil pressure issues. The engine was returned one month later, reinstalled a=
nd when it was started the oil pressure gauge for that engine indicated zero=
 oil pressure. That was when they replaced the gauge. A few hours later the p=
ilot departed, did a low pass over the field and waved at all of us as we to=
ok photos and waved back, then he turned and took up an easterly heading tow=
ard Canada and the route home to England. Unfortunately, he missed the airsh=
ow and spent several thousands of dollars when he could have at least tried c=
hecking the gauge on a bench with air pressure to see if it was faulty, befo=
re he had the engine removed, crated and shipped. There are times when it is=
 valid to check the easiest and least expensive first. It's not always the c=
ure and if it's not it does at least remove one more uncertainty.=20
>=20
acing engines and being a pilot who maintains his own aircraft and two vinta=
ge 1960 Triumph TR3A's.=20
> From: Triumphs [[email-masked]] on behalf of Geo Hahn [ah=
[email-masked]]
>=20
> I recall you initially had a problem with an incorrectly installed oil rin=
g (overlapped instead of end-to-end).  Sure sounds like that again since lea=
k down and compression tests reveal nothing.
>=20
> I have a hard time imagining valve guides could cause the massive blue smo=
ke you're seeing - but a failed oil ring sure could.
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> First off my bad.  It's clearly blue-ish smoke, not white.  It's burning o=
il not water.
>>=20
>> So today I cleaned up the plugs and fired it up again to get it up to nor=
mal operating temperature, and the smoke was billowing down the street like p=
olice had been throwing out tear gas canisters.  Your comment was if it ling=
ers for a moment or three it's oil. This cloud is lingering for 10-20 plus s=
econds as it was rolling down the street.
>>=20
>> Got it warmed up and first did a leak down test.  Rotated the engine to g=
et each piston at the top of it's stroke with the values closed for ignition=
, then put 100 psi into each cylinder and 1, 3 and 4 held steady at 98psi. #=
2 held steady at 95psi.  No issues uncovered.
>>=20
>> Next was a compression test.  Engine still warm, throttle wide open, all f=
our came up to 150 lbs plus 1-2 lbs. No issues uncovered.
>>=20
>> So our thoughts at this point is it can't be a head gasket if we're getti=
ng good compression numbers and good leak down test numbers.
>>=20
>> Additional info - When I bought this TR4a head for this rebuild, it had b=
een serviced many years ago but never installed on an engine.  The machine s=
hop tore it down and installed new hardened valve seats and checked everythi=
ng out - supposedly.  I was told the valves, valve springs and valve guides w=
ere all good, but now we're thinking this whole thing could be related to ba=
d valve guides.
>>=20
>> Not that this should matter, but I also installed a big bore kit so sleev=
es and pistons are all new.
>>=20
>> I expect the head will come off again but hope to zero in on the problem b=
efore dismantling it.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>>     blue is 'burning' oil, not just super heated oil blowby which is usu=
ally white.
>>> If it dissipates almost immediately it's water, if it lingers for a mome=
nt or three.... its oil
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> Lots of white smoke doesn't always indicate water/coolant.  On my TR4 e=
ngine that had been freshly rebuilt when I bought it I had billowing clouds o=
f white smoke.  After several head gasket changes I finally realized that th=
e new liners (liner & piston kit) had not been cross hatched so the rings di=
dn't seat.  This allowed for massive amounts of oil to be sucked up and out t=
he exhaust.  Result was white smoke.
>>>>=20
>>>> So the question is, were the cylinder liners cross hatched so the rings=
 would seal?
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 9:15 AM, Chris Simo <[email-masked]> wro=
te:
>>>>> Is that water or oil?    Lots of white smoke would indicate to me a bl=
own head gasket and water on the plugs.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Did you replace the head gasket with a new one when you fixed the oil r=
ing?   Probably not recommended, but I've reused them (1x)  in the past, but=
 always painted them with the copper coat head gasket paint.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I've blown head gaskets that leaked water into the pistons only -- no w=
ater in the oil.  But you may want to check your oil for contamination.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/pteg=
[email-masked]
>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/ahwahn=
[email-masked]
>>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/dlhogye=
@comcast.net

--Apple-Mail-03C40A09-3AB9-445C-8532-67D99BCAE528
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Interesting approach, Randall. &nbsp;Eliminate the possibility of a valve guide problem by installing seals. &nbsp;If the smoke clears, it's a problem with the guides, if it doesn't look to the rings. &nbsp;</div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="AppleMailSignature">Seems like a reasonable place to start,</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">Dave H.<br><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On Oct 17, 2015, at 10:55 AM, Reihing, Randall S. &lt;<a href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>

<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">

<div style="direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size: 10pt;">The following is just my opinion and is only presented to see if it can help, not to criticize anyone.&nbsp;
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I know the amount of smoke that can be generated because of worn valve seals sounds a little difficult to believe but in aviation when we want to lay down a serious smoke cloud, for example during allow pass at a pancake flyin, all it takes is a small
 aquarium pump, a few ounces of oil injected into one of the exhaust tubes and it's hard to believe how much smoke that will generate. Our company once had a late model Ford sedan, small v8, used by the reps. One of those smoked so bad it was cited, while parked,
 by local police for creating a public nuisance with the smoke it was generating. Turned out to be badly worn valve seals. When they were replaced with new Perfect Circle valve seals the issue was resolved. That is not to say it is not the oil rings causing
 the problem but it's so much easier to check the least expensive, easiest area to access first, then it is to pull the head and/or tear down the engine to check the rings. At least if you replace a few oil seals, without having to remove the head, and it still
 smokes then for sure the next step is the valve guides and maybe the rings.&nbsp;
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Several years ago we had a vintage twin engine aircraft land at our EAA Clubs airport that had flown all the way from England to attend the big AirVenture airshow in Oshkosh, WI. The right engine had lost oil pressure and the pilot made an emergency landing.
 The local IA mechanic, (The highest mechanic rating there is) examined the aircraft and determined it was a faulty oil pressure gauge. The pilot, in a surplus of well understood caution, politely decided that was not possible, had the entire right engine removed,
 crated, and shipped back to England where it was determined the engine was fine with no oil pressure issues. The engine was returned one month later, reinstalled and when it was started the oil pressure gauge for that engine indicated zero oil pressure. That
 was when they replaced the gauge. A few hours later the pilot departed, did a low pass over the field and waved at all of us as we took photos and waved back, then he turned and took up an easterly heading toward Canada and the route home to England. Unfortunately,
 he missed the airshow and spent several thousands of dollars when he could have at least tried checking the gauge on a bench with air pressure to see if it was faulty, before he had the engine removed, crated and shipped. There are times when it is valid to
 check the easiest and least expensive first. It's not always the cure and if it's not it does at least remove one more uncertainty.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>These are must my thoughts based on 40 years building 800 HP supercharged racing engines and being a pilot who maintains his own aircraft and two vintage 1960 Triumph TR3A's.&nbsp;<br>
<div style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #000000; font-size: 16px">
<hr tabindex="-1">
<div id="divRpF161369" style="direction: ltr;"><font face="Tahoma" size="2" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Triumphs [<a href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>] on behalf of Geo Hahn [<a href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 16, 2015 9:45 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Rye Livingston<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Triumphs<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [TR] update - the mystery continues<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>I recall you initially had a problem with an incorrectly installed oil ring (overlapped instead of end-to-end).&nbsp; Sure sounds like that again since leak down and compression tests reveal nothing.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have a hard time imagining valve guides could cause the massive blue smoke you're seeing - but a failed oil ring sure could.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Geo</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 5:25 PM, Rye Livingston <span dir="ltr">
&lt;<a href="mailto:[email-masked]" target="_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif">The mystery continues.</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif">First off my bad.&nbsp; It's clearly blue-ish smoke, not white.&nbsp; It's&nbsp;burning oil not water.</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif">So today I cleaned up the plugs and fired it up again to get it up to normal operating temperature, and the smoke was billowing down the street like police had been throwing out tear gas
 canisters.&nbsp; Your comment was if it lingers for a moment or three it's oil. This cloud is lingering for 10-20 plus seconds as it was rolling down the street.</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif">Got it warmed up and first did a leak down test.&nbsp; Rotated the engine to get each piston at the top of it's stroke with the values closed for ignition, then put 100 psi&nbsp;into each cylinder
 and 1, 3 and 4 held steady at 98psi.&nbsp;#2 held steady at 95psi.&nbsp; No issues uncovered.</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif">Next was a compression test.&nbsp; Engine still warm,&nbsp;throttle wide open, all four came up to 150 lbs plus 1-2 lbs. No issues uncovered.</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif">So our thoughts at this point is it can't be a head gasket if we're getting good compression numbers and good leak down test numbers.</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif">Additional info - When I bought this TR4a head for this rebuild, it had been serviced many years ago but never installed on an engine.&nbsp; The machine shop tore it down and installed new hardened
 valve seats and checked everything out - supposedly.&nbsp; I was told the valves, valve springs and valve guides were all good, but now we're thinking this whole thing could be related to bad valve guides.</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif">Not that this should matter, but I also installed a big bore kit so sleeves and pistons are all new.</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif">I expect the head will come off again but hope to zero in on the problem before dismantling it.</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif">Regards,</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif">Rye</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
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<div style="font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
On Oct 15, 2015, at 07:46 PM, ptegler &lt;<a href="mailto:[email-masked]" target="_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:SFNSText,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>seconded...<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; blue is 'burning' oil, not just super heated oil blowby which is usually white.<br>
If it dissipates almost immediately it's water, if it lingers for a moment or three.... its oil<br>
<br>
ptegler<br>
<br>
<div>On 10/15/2015 10:51 AM, Brad Kahler wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Lots of white smoke doesn't always indicate water/coolant.&nbsp; On my TR4 engine that had been freshly rebuilt when I bought it I had billowing clouds of white smoke.&nbsp; After several head gasket changes I finally realized that the new liners (liner
 &amp; piston kit) had not been cross hatched so the rings didn't seat.&nbsp; This allowed for massive amounts of oil to be sucked up and out the exhaust.&nbsp; Result was white smoke.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So the question is, were the cylinder liners cross hatched so the rings would seal?</div>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 9:15 AM, Chris Simo&nbsp;<span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:[email-masked]" target="_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;</span>&nbsp;wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left:1ex; border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204); border-left-width:1px; border-left-style:solid">
<div dir="ltr">Is that water or oil? &nbsp; &nbsp;Lots of white smoke would indicate to me a blown head gasket and water on the plugs.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Did you replace the head gasket with a new one when you fixed the oil ring? &nbsp; Probably not recommended, but I've reused them (1x) &nbsp;in the past, but always painted them with the copper coat head gasket paint.<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I've blown head gaskets that leaked water into the pistons only -- no water in the oil.&nbsp; But you may want to check your oil for contamination.</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left:1ex; border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204); border-left-width:1px; border-left-style:solid">
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<fieldset target="_blank"></fieldset><br>
<pre style="white-space:pre-wrap!important">** <a href="mailto:[email-masked]" target="_blank">[email-masked]</a> **

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</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<div>--&nbsp;<br>
Paul Tegler&nbsp;<a href="mailto:[email-masked]" target="_blank">[email-masked]</a>&nbsp;<a href="http://www.teglerizer.com" target="_blank">www.teglerizer.com</a></div>
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From: "Reihing, Randall S." <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 20:32:40 +0000

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Good point on the TR3 engine. I have never rebuilt/overhauled a Triumph TR3=
 engine so was not aware of the lack of valve seals. If we keep them long e=
nough I imagine I will become much more familiar with their design characte=
ristics. But Rye's smoking issue is interesting given the lack of valve sea=
ls. If the guides are badly worn the valves can vibrate side-to-side within=
 the guide and may not seal at the valve seat. This can cause idle roughnes=
s at normal idle rpm. Attaching a vacuum gauge and then starting the cold e=
ngine, if the guides are bad you will, as you have said, probably see blue =
smoke and the vacuum gauge needle fluctuate from around 3" mercury, to appr=
oximately 7 inches of mercury but when the rpm's are increased, stabilize w=
ith a steady reading.

What are the chances that all the piston ring end gaps are too large and/or=
 may have lined up?

I agree too that once the head is off the answer will be closer. In the TR3=
, is it possible to drop the pan and push a piston/rod assembly out the top=
? I assume that if the engine was rebuilt the cylinder sleeves were either =
replaced or any difference in circumference at the top of the existing cyli=
nder was removed. If this is possible it might be a lot easier than pulling=
 the engine out again.

RandallS

[email-masked]]
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2015 3:45 PM
To: Reihing, Randall S.
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [TR] update - the mystery continues

No valve seals on a TR3 engine.  Could be worn valve guides but in my exper=
ience those usually manifest themselves by allowing oil to seep into the cy=
linder when the engine is off and produce blue smoke briefly at start-up.

Once the head is off (and possibly the pistons examined) I expect the answe=
r will be more apparent.

Geo

On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Reihing, Randall S. <Randall.Reihing@utol=
The following is just my opinion and is only presented to see if it can hel=
p, not to criticize anyone.

I know the amount of smoke that can be generated because of worn valve seal=
s sounds a little difficult to believe...

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<html dir=3D"ltr">
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1">
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</head>
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<div style=3D"direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size: =
10pt;">Good point on the TR3 engine. I have never rebuilt/overhauled a Triu=
mph TR3 engine so was not aware of the lack of valve seals. If we keep them=
 long enough I imagine I will become
 much more familiar with their design characteristics. But Rye's smoking is=
sue is interesting given the lack of valve seals. If the guides are badly w=
orn the valves can vibrate side-to-side within the guide and may not seal a=
t the valve seat. This can cause
 idle roughness at normal idle rpm. Attaching a vacuum gauge and then start=
ing the cold engine, if the guides are bad you will, as you have said, prob=
ably see blue smoke and the vacuum gauge needle fluctuate from around 3&quo=
t; mercury, to approximately 7 inches
 of mercury but when the rpm's are increased, stabilize with a steady readi=
ng.&nbsp;
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What are the chances that all the piston ring end gaps are too large a=
nd/or may have lined up?&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I agree too that once the head is off the answer will be closer. In th=
e TR3, is it possible to drop the pan and push a piston/rod assembly out th=
e top? I assume that if the engine was rebuilt the cylinder sleeves were ei=
ther replaced or any difference
 in circumference at the top of the existing cylinder was removed. If this =
is possible it might be a lot easier than pulling the engine out again.&nbs=
p;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>RandallS</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div><span style=3D"font-size: small;"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style=3D"font-size: small;">[email-masked]]</span>
<div style=3D"font-family: Times New Roman; color: #000000; font-size: 16px=
">
<div id=3D"divRpF30638" style=3D"direction: ltr;"><font face=3D"Tahoma" siz=
e=3D"2" color=3D"#000000"><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, October 17, 2015 3:45 PM<b=
r>
<b>To:</b> Reihing, Randall S.<br>
<b>Cc:</b> [email-masked]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [TR] update - the mystery continues<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>No valve seals on a TR3 engine.&nbsp; Could be worn valve guides but i=
n my experience those usually manifest themselves by allowing oil to seep i=
nto the cylinder when the engine is off and produce blue smoke briefly at s=
tart-up.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Once the head is off (and possibly the pistons examined) I expect the =
answer will be more apparent.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Geo&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Reihing, Randa=
ll S. <span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=3D"_blank">Randal=
[email-masked]</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; paddin=
g-left:1ex; border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204); border-left-width:1px; bord=
er-left-style:solid">
<div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0); font-family:Tahoma; font-size:10pt; directi=
on:ltr">
The following is just my opinion and is only presented to see if it can hel=
p, not to criticize anyone.&nbsp;
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I know the amount of smoke that can be generated because of worn valve=
 seals sounds a little difficult to believe...<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
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</div>
</div>
</div>
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