Subject: [TR] what happened?

From: Rye Livingston <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 22:01:44 +0000 (GMT)

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Last week was Triumphest in San Diego. =C2=A0I'd been rebuilding my 1960 T=
R3 in preparation for this event with a pretty tight timeline. I got the e=
ngine in the car a week before and was out getting some break-in miles and=
 it was running very strong, but I discovered it was burning oil like it w=
as going out of style. =C2=A0Took out the plugs and 2, 3 and 4 were perfec=
t - a dusty white color, and #1 was so buggered up I don't know how it was=
 firing. =C2=A0It was such=C2=A0a mess it was clear the oil ring didn't go=
 on right. =C2=A0So on Saturday I pulled the pan and the head, pulled #1 p=
iston out and yep, the oil wrong was not right. The red and green ends to =
the oil ring and overlapped and=C2=A0only=C2=A0one color was showing. Noth=
ing appeared to be damaged, and in effect with it not fully expanded it wa=
sn't making any kind of a seal, thus why the oil was blowing=C2=A0by and=C2=
=A0burning up.=0A=0ABefore I reassembled it I put the=C2=A0piston=C2=A0in =
as an experiment with OUT=C2=A0having=C2=A0the overlap right, to see how i=
t felt loose, and I didn't even need=C2=A0the=C2=A0ring compression collar=
. So then I put the collar on and tapped the piston back=C2=A0into=C2=A0th=
e sleeve, then pushed it back up so the compression rings came up, but not=
 the oil ring, and tested to check the fit. =C2=A0It was very snug, so it =
should be all good. =C2=A0Put the collar back on and tapped it back down i=
n place, attached the connecting rod to the crank, and then had to wait. =C2=
=A0This was Saturday and I needed a head=C2=A0gasket, which I ordered Mond=
ay with overnight delivery and got it at 10am Tuesday. =C2=A0We were leavi=
ng for Triumphest at 8AM Wednesday, 1000 mile round trip.=0A=0ATuesday I g=
ot it all back together, torqued the head, adjusted the valves and it seem=
ed to be running well. =C2=A0Went down to the British Motorsports garage a=
nd Dave was doing a final tune up on to the carbs and timing. =C2=A0He had=
 it idling for about 20 mins while he was revving it up and tuning things,=
 all good. =C2=A0Engine purring like a kitten. =C2=A0Being a new engine th=
ere was a little smoke as he revved it up but very little, and I asked him=
=C2=A0how=C2=A0long it would do that as the rings bed in. =C2=A0With that=C2=
=A0question he revved it 2-3 more times and on that 3rd time, all of a sud=
den TONs of while smoke come rolling out, like a cartoon, a smoke screen. =
=C2=A0What the? =C2=A0The mechanic was flabbergasted as to what could have=
 all of a sudden happened. =C2=A0Now it was running rough and spewing out =
white smoke. This was at about 5:30 PM, and we were both at a total loss a=
s to what could have happened. =C2=A0I drove it home, about 15 miles, pull=
ed the plugs and took the photo which I've attached. =C2=A0The #1 plug is =
on the right in the photo, and as you'll see both 1 and 3 are a mess, whil=
e #2 and 4 are perfect. =C2=A0Obviously something is not right. =C2=A0What=
 I really don't understand is how #3 got bad too. =C2=A0I didn't touch #2,=
 3 and 4 and they were prefect before? =C2=A0=0A=0AAnyway, there was no ug=
ly noise. =C2=A0Nothing broke. It can be sorted out. =C2=A0But can't go on=
 a 1000 mile drive to San Diego with it like that. =C2=A0So I left the nex=
t morning at 8AM in my non-Triumph back up car and had a great time at Tri=
umphest, but not in my TR3.=0A=0AThis weekend I'm planning to do a compres=
sion test and my=C2=A0brother=C2=A0has a leak down tester so I'll do that =
too before=C2=A0dismantling=C2=A0again.=0A=0AAny thoughts on what may have=
 happened? =C2=A0What I=C2=A0should=C2=A0look for?=0A=0AAnd yes, some of y=
ou may have seen my post over a week ago about the OD transmission I put i=
n at the same time with the new engine. =C2=A0The one that seems to either=
 downshift by itself under load in 3rd gear, or not shift into OD in 4th u=
nder load. =C2=A0That clearly become a non-issue with this=C2=A0engine=C2=A0=
problem, but something I plan to get addresses after the=C2=A0engine=C2=A0=
is squared away and running properly.=0A=0AThanks for the help,=0A=0ARye=0A=
=0A=0A=

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<html><body><div><font face=3D"Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif">Last week was Tr=
iumphest in San Diego. &nbsp;I'd been rebuilding my 1960 TR3 in preparatio=
n for this event with a pretty tight timeline. I got the engine in the car=
 a week before and was out getting some break-in miles and it was running =
very strong, but I discovered it was burning oil like it was going out of =
style. &nbsp;Took out the plugs and 2, 3 and 4 were perfect - a dusty whit=
e color, and #1 was so buggered up I don't know how it was firing. &nbsp;I=
t was such<span style=3D"line-height: 1.5;">&nbsp;a mess it was clear the =
oil ring didn't go on right. &nbsp;So on Saturday I pulled the pan and the=
 head, pulled #1 piston out and yep, the oil wrong was not right. The red =
and green ends to the oil ring and overlapped and&nbsp;</span>only<span st=
yle=3D"line-height: 1.5;">&nbsp;one color was showing. Nothing appeared to=
 be damaged, and in effect with it not fully expanded it wasn't making any=
 kind of a seal, thus why the oil was blowing&nbsp;</span>by and&nbsp;burn=
ing up.</font></div><div><font face=3D"Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-ser=
if"><span style=3D"line-height: 1.5;"><br></span></font></div><div><font f=
ace=3D"Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"line-height: =
1.5;">Before I reassembled it I put the&nbsp;</span>piston<span style=3D"l=
ine-height: 1.5;">&nbsp;in as an experiment with OUT&nbsp;</span>having<sp=
an style=3D"line-height: 1.5;">&nbsp;the overlap right, to see how it felt=
 loose, and I didn't even need&nbsp;</span>the<span style=3D"line-height: =
1.5;">&nbsp;ring compression collar. So then I put the collar on and tappe=
d the piston back&nbsp;</span>into<span style=3D"line-height: 1.5;">&nbsp;=
the sleeve, then pushed it back up so the compression rings came up, but n=
ot the oil ring, and tested to check the fit. &nbsp;It was very snug, so i=
t should be all good. &nbsp;Put the collar back on and tapped it back down=
 in place, attached the connecting rod to the crank, and then had to wait.=
 &nbsp;This was Saturday and I needed a head&nbsp;</span>gasket, which I o=
rdered Monday with overnight delivery and got it at 10am Tuesday. &nbsp;We=
 were leaving for Triumphest at 8AM Wednesday, 1000 mile round trip.</font=
></div><div><font face=3D"Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span sty=
le=3D"line-height: 1.5;"><br></span></font></div><div><font face=3D"Helvet=
ica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"line-height: 1.5;">Tuesday=
 I got it all back together, torqued the head, adjusted the valves and it =
seemed to be running well. &nbsp;Went down to the British Motorsports gara=
ge and Dave was doing a final tune up on to the carbs and timing. &nbsp;He=
 had it idling for about 20 mins while he was revving it up and tuning thi=
ngs, all good. &nbsp;Engine purring like a kitten. &nbsp;Being a new engin=
e there was a little smoke as he revved it up but very little, and I asked=
 him&nbsp;</span>how<span style=3D"line-height: 1.5;">&nbsp;long it would =
do that as the rings bed in. &nbsp;</span>With that<span style=3D"line-hei=
ght: 1.5;">&nbsp;question he revved it 2-3 more times and on that 3rd time=
, all of a sudden TONs of while smoke come rolling out, like a cartoon, a =
smoke screen. &nbsp;What the? &nbsp;The mechanic was flabbergasted as to w=
hat could have all of a sudden happened. &nbsp;Now it was running rough an=
d spewing out white smoke. This was at about 5:30 PM, and we were both at =
a total loss as to what could have happened. &nbsp;I drove it home, about =
15 miles, pulled the plugs and took the photo which I've attached. &nbsp;T=
he #1 plug is on the right in the photo, and as you'll see both 1 and 3 ar=
e a mess, while #2 and 4 are perfect. &nbsp;Obviously something is not rig=
ht. &nbsp;What I really don't understand is how #3 got bad too. &nbsp;I di=
dn't touch #2, 3 and 4 and they were prefect before? &nbsp;</span></font><=
/div><div><font face=3D"Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"line-height: 1.5;"><br></span></font></div><div><font face=3D"Helvetic=
a Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"line-height: 1.5;">Anyway, t=
here was no ugly noise. &nbsp;Nothing broke. It can be sorted out. &nbsp;B=
ut can't go on a 1000 mile drive to San Diego with it like that. &nbsp;So =
I left the next morning at 8AM in my non-Triumph back up car and had a gre=
at time at Triumphest, but not in my TR3.</span></font></div><div><font fa=
ce=3D"Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"line-height: 1=
.5;"><br></span></font></div><div><font face=3D"Helvetica Neue, Helvetica,=
 sans-serif"><span style=3D"line-height: 1.5;">This weekend I'm planning t=
o do a compression test and my&nbsp;</span>brother<span style=3D"line-heig=
ht: 1.5;">&nbsp;has a leak down tester so I'll do that too before&nbsp;</s=
pan>dismantling<span style=3D"line-height: 1.5;">&nbsp;again.</span></font=
></div><div><font face=3D"Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span sty=
le=3D"line-height: 1.5;"><br></span></font></div><div><font face=3D"Helvet=
ica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"line-height: 1.5;">Any tho=
ughts on what may have happened? &nbsp;What I&nbsp;</span>should<span styl=
e=3D"line-height: 1.5;">&nbsp;look for?</span></font></div><div><font face=
=3D"Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"line-height: 1.5=
;"><br></span></font></div><div><font face=3D"Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, s=
ans-serif"><span style=3D"line-height: 1.5;">And yes, some of you may have=
 seen my post over a week ago about the OD transmission I put in at the sa=
me time with the new engine. &nbsp;The one that seems to either downshift =
by itself under load in 3rd gear, or not shift into OD in 4th under load. =
&nbsp;That clearly become a non-issue with this&nbsp;</span>engine<span st=
yle=3D"line-height: 1.5;">&nbsp;problem, but something I plan to get addre=
sses after the&nbsp;</span>engine<span style=3D"line-height: 1.5;">&nbsp;i=
s squared away and running properly.</span></font></div><div><font face=3D=
"Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"line-height: 1.5;">=
<br></span></font></div><div><font face=3D"Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans=
-serif"><span style=3D"line-height: 1.5;">Thanks for the help,</span></fon=
t></div><div><font face=3D"Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span st=
yle=3D"line-height: 1.5;"><br></span></font></div><div><font face=3D"Helve=
tica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"line-height: 1.5;">Rye</s=
pan></font></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type=3D"ci=
te"><div class=3D"msg-quote"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"msg-q=
uote"><div class=3D"_stretch"><img class=3D"_auto-scale" src=3D"cid:0bb7bc=
[email-masked]"                                =
                                                                          =
                                   alt=3D"" data-inline-image=3D"true" dat=
a-mce-src=3D"cid:[email-masked]"         =
                                                                          =
                                                          style=3D"line-he=
ight: 1.5;"></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></body></html>=

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** [email-masked] **

Archive: http://www.team.net/archive

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From: Chris Simo <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 09:15:15 -0400

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Is that water or oil?    Lots of white smoke would indicate to me a blown
head gasket and water on the plugs.

Did you replace the head gasket with a new one when you fixed the oil ring?
  Probably not recommended, but I've reused them (1x)  in the past, but
always painted them with the copper coat head gasket paint.

I've blown head gaskets that leaked water into the pistons only -- no water
in the oil.  But you may want to check your oil for contamination.

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Is that water or oil? =C2=A0 =C2=A0Lots of white smoke wou=
ld indicate to me a blown head gasket and water on the plugs.<div><br></div=
><div>Did you replace the head gasket with a new one when you fixed the oil=
 ring? =C2=A0 Probably not recommended, but I&#39;ve reused them (1x) =C2=
=A0in the past, but always painted them with the copper coat head gasket pa=
int.<br><div><br></div><div>I&#39;ve blown head gaskets that leaked water i=
nto the pistons only -- no water in the oil.=C2=A0 But you may want to chec=
k your oil for contamination.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div><br></div>=
</div></blockquote></div></div></div>

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From: "Andrew Uprichard" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 10:33:54 -0400

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White smoke sounds like water.  Pull the dipstick and see if there is water
in the oil of if it  is restricted to the pistons.

Blown head gasket?  Possibly one of the aluminum plugs in the head was
rotted and blew ???

Andrew Uprichard

From: Triumphs [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Rye
Livingston
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 6:02 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [TR] what happened?

Last week was Triumphest in San Diego.  I'd been rebuilding my 1960 TR3 in
preparation for this event with a pretty tight timeline. I got the engine in
the car a week before and was out getting some break-in miles and it was
running very strong, but I discovered it was burning oil like it was going
out of style.  Took out the plugs and 2, 3 and 4 were perfect - a dusty
white color, and #1 was so buggered up I don't know how it was firing.  It
was such a mess it was clear the oil ring didn't go on right.  So on
Saturday I pulled the pan and the head, pulled #1 piston out and yep, the
oil wrong was not right. The red and green ends to the oil ring and
overlapped and only one color was showing. Nothing appeared to be damaged,
and in effect with it not fully expanded it wasn't making any kind of a
seal, thus why the oil was blowing by and burning up.

Before I reassembled it I put the piston in as an experiment with OUT having
the overlap right, to see how it felt loose, and I didn't even need the ring
compression collar. So then I put the collar on and tapped the piston back
into the sleeve, then pushed it back up so the compression rings came up,
but not the oil ring, and tested to check the fit.  It was very snug, so it
should be all good.  Put the collar back on and tapped it back down in
place, attached the connecting rod to the crank, and then had to wait.  This
was Saturday and I needed a head gasket, which I ordered Monday with
overnight delivery and got it at 10am Tuesday.  We were leaving for
Triumphest at 8AM Wednesday, 1000 mile round trip.

Tuesday I got it all back together, torqued the head, adjusted the valves
and it seemed to be running well.  Went down to the British Motorsports
garage and Dave was doing a final tune up on to the carbs and timing.  He
had it idling for about 20 mins while he was revving it up and tuning
things, all good.  Engine purring like a kitten.  Being a new engine there
was a little smoke as he revved it up but very little, and I asked him how
long it would do that as the rings bed in.  With that question he revved it
2-3 more times and on that 3rd time, all of a sudden TONs of while smoke
come rolling out, like a cartoon, a smoke screen.  What the?  The mechanic
was flabbergasted as to what could have all of a sudden happened.  Now it
was running rough and spewing out white smoke. This was at about 5:30 PM,
and we were both at a total loss as to what could have happened.  I drove it
home, about 15 miles, pulled the plugs and took the photo which I've
attached.  The #1 plug is on the right in the photo, and as you'll see both
1 and 3 are a mess, while #2 and 4 are perfect.  Obviously something is not
right.  What I really don't understand is how #3 got bad too.  I didn't
touch #2, 3 and 4 and they were prefect before?  

Anyway, there was no ugly noise.  Nothing broke. It can be sorted out.  But
can't go on a 1000 mile drive to San Diego with it like that.  So I left the
next morning at 8AM in my non-Triumph back up car and had a great time at
Triumphest, but not in my TR3.

This weekend I'm planning to do a compression test and my brother has a leak
down tester so I'll do that too before dismantling again.

Any thoughts on what may have happened?  What I should look for?

And yes, some of you may have seen my post over a week ago about the OD
transmission I put in at the same time with the new engine.  The one that
seems to either downshift by itself under load in 3rd gear, or not shift
into OD in 4th under load.  That clearly become a non-issue with this engine
problem, but something I plan to get addresses after the engine is squared
away and running properly.

Thanks for the help,

Rye

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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>White smoke sounds like water.&nbsp; Pull the dipstick and see if =
there is water in the oil of if it &nbsp;is restricted to the =
pistons.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Blown head gasket?&nbsp; Possibly one of the aluminum plugs in the =
head was rotted and blew ???<br><br>Andrew =
Uprichard<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Triumphs [mailto:[email-masked]] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>Rye Livingston<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 14, 2015 6:02 =
PM<br><b>To:</b> [email-masked]<br><b>Subject:</b> [TR] what =
happened?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Last week was Triumphest =
in San Diego. &nbsp;I'd been rebuilding my 1960 TR3 in preparation for =
this event with a pretty tight timeline. I got the engine in the car a =
week before and was out getting some break-in miles and it was running =
very strong, but I discovered it was burning oil like it was going out =
of style. &nbsp;Took out the plugs and 2, 3 and 4 were perfect - a dusty =
white color, and #1 was so buggered up I don't know how it was firing. =
&nbsp;It was such&nbsp;a mess it was clear the oil ring didn't go on =
right. &nbsp;So on Saturday I pulled the pan and the head, pulled #1 =
piston out and yep, the oil wrong was not right. The red and green ends =
to the oil ring and overlapped and&nbsp;only&nbsp;one color was showing. =
Nothing appeared to be damaged, and in effect with it not fully expanded =
it wasn't making any kind of a seal, thus why the oil was =
blowing&nbsp;by and&nbsp;burning up.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Before I reassembled it I =
put the&nbsp;piston&nbsp;in as an experiment with =
OUT&nbsp;having&nbsp;the overlap right, to see how it felt loose, and I =
didn't even need&nbsp;the&nbsp;ring compression collar. So then I put =
the collar on and tapped the piston back&nbsp;into&nbsp;the sleeve, then =
pushed it back up so the compression rings came up, but not the oil =
ring, and tested to check the fit. &nbsp;It was very snug, so it should =
be all good. &nbsp;Put the collar back on and tapped it back down in =
place, attached the connecting rod to the crank, and then had to wait. =
&nbsp;This was Saturday and I needed a head&nbsp;gasket, which I ordered =
Monday with overnight delivery and got it at 10am Tuesday. &nbsp;We were =
leaving for Triumphest at 8AM Wednesday, 1000 mile round =
trip.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Tuesday I got it all back =
together, torqued the head, adjusted the valves and it seemed to be =
running well. &nbsp;Went down to the British Motorsports garage and Dave =
was doing a final tune up on to the carbs and timing. &nbsp;He had it =
idling for about 20 mins while he was revving it up and tuning things, =
all good. &nbsp;Engine purring like a kitten. &nbsp;Being a new engine =
there was a little smoke as he revved it up but very little, and I asked =
him&nbsp;how&nbsp;long it would do that as the rings bed in. &nbsp;With =
that&nbsp;question he revved it 2-3 more times and on that 3rd time, all =
of a sudden TONs of while smoke come rolling out, like a cartoon, a =
smoke screen. &nbsp;What the? &nbsp;The mechanic was flabbergasted as to =
what could have all of a sudden happened. &nbsp;Now it was running rough =
and spewing out white smoke. This was at about 5:30 PM, and we were both =
at a total loss as to what could have happened. &nbsp;I drove it home, =
about 15 miles, pulled the plugs and took the photo which I've attached. =
&nbsp;The #1 plug is on the right in the photo, and as you'll see both 1 =
and 3 are a mess, while #2 and 4 are perfect. &nbsp;Obviously something =
is not right. &nbsp;What I really don't understand is how #3 got bad =
too. &nbsp;I didn't touch #2, 3 and 4 and they were prefect before? =
&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Anyway, there was no ugly =
noise. &nbsp;Nothing broke. It can be sorted out. &nbsp;But can't go on =
a 1000 mile drive to San Diego with it like that. &nbsp;So I left the =
next morning at 8AM in my non-Triumph back up car and had a great time =
at Triumphest, but not in my TR3.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>This weekend I'm planning =
to do a compression test and my&nbsp;brother&nbsp;has a leak down tester =
so I'll do that too =
before&nbsp;dismantling&nbsp;again.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Any thoughts on what may =
have happened? &nbsp;What I&nbsp;should&nbsp;look =
for?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>And yes, some of you may =
have seen my post over a week ago about the OD transmission I put in at =
the same time with the new engine. &nbsp;The one that seems to either =
downshift by itself under load in 3rd gear, or not shift into OD in 4th =
under load. &nbsp;That clearly become a non-issue with =
this&nbsp;engine&nbsp;problem, but something I plan to get addresses =
after the&nbsp;engine&nbsp;is squared away and running =
properly.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Thanks for the =
help,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Rye</span><o:p></o:p></p><=
/div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><img width=3D1632 height=3D1224 id=3D"_x0000_i1025" =
src=3D"cid:[email-masked]"><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></b=
lockquote></div></blockquote></div></div></body></html>
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From: "Andrew Uprichard" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 10:36:08 -0400

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Just by the way - I wouldn't say  "#2 and 4 are perfect".  They look kinda
black to me.

Andrew Uprichard

Thanks for the help,

Rye

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style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Just by =
the way &#8211; I wouldn&#8217;t say &nbsp;&#8220;</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>#2 and 4 =
are perfect&#8221;.&nbsp; They look kinda black to =
me.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Andrew =
Uprichard</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
src=3D"cid:[email-masked]"><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></b=
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From: Brad Kahler <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 10:51:50 -0400

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--047d7b451168a7c78e052225d1cb

Lots of white smoke doesn't always indicate water/coolant.  On my TR4
engine that had been freshly rebuilt when I bought it I had billowing
clouds of white smoke.  After several head gasket changes I finally
realized that the new liners (liner & piston kit) had not been cross
hatched so the rings didn't seat.  This allowed for massive amounts of oil
to be sucked up and out the exhaust.  Result was white smoke.

So the question is, were the cylinder liners cross hatched so the rings
would seal?

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 9:15 AM, Chris Simo <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Did you replace the head gasket with a new one when you fixed the oil
> ring?   Probably not recommended, but I've reused them (1x)  in the past,
> but always painted them with the copper coat head gasket paint.
>
> I've blown head gaskets that leaked water into the pistons only -- no
> water in the oil.  But you may want to check your oil for contamination.
>
>
>>
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Lots of white smoke doesn&#39;t always indicate water/cool=
ant.=C2=A0 On my TR4 engine that had been freshly rebuilt when I bought it =
I had billowing clouds of white smoke.=C2=A0 After several head gasket chan=
ges I finally realized that the new liners (liner &amp; piston kit) had not=
 been cross hatched so the rings didn&#39;t seat.=C2=A0 This allowed for ma=
ssive amounts of oil to be sucked up and out the exhaust.=C2=A0 Result was =
white smoke.<div><br></div><div>So the question is, were the cylinder liner=
s cross hatched so the rings would seal?</div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 9:15 AM, Chri=
s Simo <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]" target=
=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Is that water or oil? =C2=A0 =C2=A0Lots of w=
hite smoke would indicate to me a blown head gasket and water on the plugs.=
<div><br></div><div>Did you replace the head gasket with a new one when you=
 fixed the oil ring? =C2=A0 Probably not recommended, but I&#39;ve reused t=
hem (1x) =C2=A0in the past, but always painted them with the copper coat he=
ad gasket paint.<br><div><br></div><div>I&#39;ve blown head gaskets that le=
aked water into the pistons only -- no water in the oil.=C2=A0 But you may =
want to check your oil for contamination.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_ex=
tra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><di=
v><br></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div>
<br><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>

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From: "Jonas Payne" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 08:15:02 -0700

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I=E2=80=99m with Chris on this one =E2=80=93 it would also explain the =
poor running.

=20

Jonas Payne

PBR Consulting Services, LLC

702.882.6711

=20

From: Triumphs [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of =
Chris Simo
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 6:15 AM
To: Rye Livingston <[email-masked]>; list Triumph =
<[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [TR] what happened?

=20

Is that water or oil?    Lots of white smoke would indicate to me a =
blown head gasket and water on the plugs.

=20

Did you replace the head gasket with a new one when you fixed the oil =
ring?   Probably not recommended, but I've reused them (1x)  in the =
past, but always painted them with the copper coat head gasket paint.

=20

I've blown head gaskets that leaked water into the pistons only -- no =
water in the oil.  But you may want to check your oil for contamination.

=20

=20

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link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>I=E2=80=99m with Chris on this one =E2=80=93 it would also explain the =
poor running.<o:p></o:p></span></a></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>Jonas Payne<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>PBR Consulting Services, LLC<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
>702.882.6711<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> =
Triumphs [mailto:[email-masked]] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>Chris Simo<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 15, 2015 6:15 =
AM<br><b>To:</b> Rye Livingston &lt;[email-masked]&gt;; list Triumph =
&lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [TR] what =
happened?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Is that =
water or oil? &nbsp; &nbsp;Lots of white smoke would indicate to me a =
blown head gasket and water on the plugs.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Did you replace the head gasket with a new one when =
you fixed the oil ring? &nbsp; Probably not recommended, but I've reused =
them (1x) &nbsp;in the past, but always painted them with the copper =
coat head gasket paint.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I've blown head gaskets that leaked water into the =
pistons only -- no water in the oil.&nbsp; But you may want to check =
your oil for contamination.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></blockquote></div></d=
iv></div></div></body></html>
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From: Dixie4 <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 18:42:42 +0100

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Oh dear.
  My theory would be 'figure of eight liner' gasket failure. Being newly 
rebuilt there will be hardly any grip holding the gasket / liner firm. 
Something you would find on an older engine. The liners must be clamped 
to prevent any movement. It could be something simple for instance a 
faulty cylinder head gasket.
Just my two pence worth.

Adrian TR4A CT 64306 O
Wales UK

On 14/10/2015 23:01, Rye Livingston wrote:
> Last week was Triumphest in San Diego.  I'd been rebuilding my 1960 
> TR3 in preparation for this event with a pretty tight timeline. I got 
> the engine in the car a week before and was out getting some break-in 
> miles and it was running very strong, but I discovered it was burning 
> oil like it was going out of style.  Took out the plugs and 2, 3 and 4 
> were perfect - a dusty white color, and #1 was so buggered up I don't 
> know how it was firing.  It was such a mess it was clear the oil ring 
> didn't go on right.  So on Saturday I pulled the pan and the head, 
> pulled #1 piston out and yep, the oil wrong was not right. The red and 
> green ends to the oil ring and overlapped and only one color was 
> showing. Nothing appeared to be damaged, and in effect with it not 
> fully expanded it wasn't making any kind of a seal, thus why the oil 
> was blowing by and burning up.
>
> Before I reassembled it I put the piston in as an experiment with OUT 
> having the overlap right, to see how it felt loose, and I didn't even 
> need the ring compression collar. So then I put the collar on and 
> tapped the piston back into the sleeve, then pushed it back up so the 
> compression rings came up, but not the oil ring, and tested to check 
> the fit.  It was very snug, so it should be all good.  Put the collar 
> back on and tapped it back down in place, attached the connecting rod 
> to the crank, and then had to wait.  This was Saturday and I needed a 
> head gasket, which I ordered Monday with overnight delivery and got it 
> at 10am Tuesday.  We were leaving for Triumphest at 8AM Wednesday, 
> 1000 mile round trip.
>
> Tuesday I got it all back together, torqued the head, adjusted the 
> valves and it seemed to be running well.  Went down to the British 
> Motorsports garage and Dave was doing a final tune up on to the carbs 
> and timing.  He had it idling for about 20 mins while he was revving 
> it up and tuning things, all good.  Engine purring like a kitten. 
>  Being a new engine there was a little smoke as he revved it up but 
> very little, and I asked him how long it would do that as the rings 
> bed in. With that question he revved it 2-3 more times and on that 3rd 
> time, all of a sudden TONs of while smoke come rolling out, like a 
> cartoon, a smoke screen.  What the?  The mechanic was flabbergasted as 
> to what could have all of a sudden happened.  Now it was running rough 
> and spewing out white smoke. This was at about 5:30 PM, and we were 
> both at a total loss as to what could have happened.  I drove it home, 
> about 15 miles, pulled the plugs and took the photo which I've 
> attached.  The #1 plug is on the right in the photo, and as you'll see 
> both 1 and 3 are a mess, while #2 and 4 are perfect.  Obviously 
> something is not right.  What I really don't understand is how #3 got 
> bad too.  I didn't touch #2, 3 and 4 and they were prefect before?
>
> Anyway, there was no ugly noise.  Nothing broke. It can be sorted out. 
>  But can't go on a 1000 mile drive to San Diego with it like that.  So 
> I left the next morning at 8AM in my non-Triumph back up car and had a 
> great time at Triumphest, but not in my TR3.
>
> This weekend I'm planning to do a compression test and my brother has 
> a leak down tester so I'll do that too before dismantling again.
>
> And yes, some of you may have seen my post over a week ago about the 
> OD transmission I put in at the same time with the new engine.  The 
> one that seems to either downshift by itself under load in 3rd gear, 
> or not shift into OD in 4th under load.  That clearly become a 
> non-issue with this engine problem, but something I plan to get 
> addresses after the engine is squared away and running properly.
>
> Thanks for the help,
>
> Rye
>
>
>
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Forums: http://www.team.net/forums
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]
>
>
> No virus found in this message.
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    Oh dear.<br>
     My theory would be 'figure of eight liner' gasket failure. Being
    newly rebuilt there will be hardly any grip holding the gasket /
    liner firm. Something you would find on an older engine. The liners
    must be clamped to prevent any movement. It could be something
    simple for instance a faulty cylinder head gasket.<br>
    Just my two pence worth.<br>
    <br>
    Adrian TR4A CT 64306 O<br>
    Wales UK<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 14/10/2015 23:01, Rye Livingston
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:[email-masked]"
      type="cite">
      <div><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif">Last week
          was Triumphest in San Diego.  I'd been rebuilding my 1960 TR3
          in preparation for this event with a pretty tight timeline. I
          got the engine in the car a week before and was out getting
          some break-in miles and it was running very strong, but I
          discovered it was burning oil like it was going out of style.
           Took out the plugs and 2, 3 and 4 were perfect - a dusty
          white color, and #1 was so buggered up I don't know how it was
          firing.  It was such<span style="line-height: 1.5;"> a mess it
            was clear the oil ring didn't go on right.  So on Saturday I
            pulled the pan and the head, pulled #1 piston out and yep,
            the oil wrong was not right. The red and green ends to the
            oil ring and overlapped and </span>only<span
            style="line-height: 1.5;"> one color was showing. Nothing
            appeared to be damaged, and in effect with it not fully
            expanded it wasn't making any kind of a seal, thus why the
            oil was blowing </span>by and burning up.</font></div>
      <div><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span
            style="line-height: 1.5;"><br>
          </span></font></div>
      <div><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span
            style="line-height: 1.5;">Before I reassembled it I put the </span>piston<span
            style="line-height: 1.5;"> in as an experiment with OUT </span>having<span
            style="line-height: 1.5;"> the overlap right, to see how it
            felt loose, and I didn't even need </span>the<span
            style="line-height: 1.5;"> ring compression collar. So then
            I put the collar on and tapped the piston back </span>into<span
            style="line-height: 1.5;"> the sleeve, then pushed it back
            up so the compression rings came up, but not the oil ring,
            and tested to check the fit.  It was very snug, so it should
            be all good.  Put the collar back on and tapped it back down
            in place, attached the connecting rod to the crank, and then
            had to wait.  This was Saturday and I needed a head </span>gasket,
          which I ordered Monday with overnight delivery and got it at
          10am Tuesday.  We were leaving for Triumphest at 8AM
          Wednesday, 1000 mile round trip.</font></div>
      <div><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span
            style="line-height: 1.5;"><br>
          </span></font></div>
      <div><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span
            style="line-height: 1.5;">Tuesday I got it all back
            together, torqued the head, adjusted the valves and it
            seemed to be running well.  Went down to the British
            Motorsports garage and Dave was doing a final tune up on to
            the carbs and timing.  He had it idling for about 20 mins
            while he was revving it up and tuning things, all good.
             Engine purring like a kitten.  Being a new engine there was
            a little smoke as he revved it up but very little, and I
            asked him </span>how<span style="line-height: 1.5;"> long it
            would do that as the rings bed in.  </span>With that<span
            style="line-height: 1.5;"> question he revved it 2-3 more
            times and on that 3rd time, all of a sudden TONs of while
            smoke come rolling out, like a cartoon, a smoke screen.
             What the?  The mechanic was flabbergasted as to what could
            have all of a sudden happened.  Now it was running rough and
            spewing out white smoke. This was at about 5:30 PM, and we
            were both at a total loss as to what could have happened.  I
            drove it home, about 15 miles, pulled the plugs and took the
            photo which I've attached.  The #1 plug is on the right in
            the photo, and as you'll see both 1 and 3 are a mess, while
            #2 and 4 are perfect.  Obviously something is not right.
             What I really don't understand is how #3 got bad too.  I
            didn't touch #2, 3 and 4 and they were prefect before?  </span></font></div>
      <div><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span
            style="line-height: 1.5;"><br>
          </span></font></div>
      <div><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span
            style="line-height: 1.5;">Anyway, there was no ugly noise.
             Nothing broke. It can be sorted out.  But can't go on a
            1000 mile drive to San Diego with it like that.  So I left
            the next morning at 8AM in my non-Triumph back up car and
            had a great time at Triumphest, but not in my TR3.</span></font></div>
      <div><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span
            style="line-height: 1.5;"><br>
          </span></font></div>
      <div><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span
            style="line-height: 1.5;">This weekend I'm planning to do a
            compression test and my </span>brother<span
            style="line-height: 1.5;"> has a leak down tester so I'll do
            that too before </span>dismantling<span style="line-height:
            1.5;"> again.</span></font></div>
      <div><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span
            style="line-height: 1.5;"><br>
          </span></font></div>
      <div><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span
            style="line-height: 1.5;">Any thoughts on what may have
            happened?  What I </span>should<span style="line-height:
            1.5;"> look for?</span></font></div>
      <div><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span
            style="line-height: 1.5;"><br>
          </span></font></div>
      <div><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span
            style="line-height: 1.5;">And yes, some of you may have seen
            my post over a week ago about the OD transmission I put in
            at the same time with the new engine.  The one that seems to
            either downshift by itself under load in 3rd gear, or not
            shift into OD in 4th under load.  That clearly become a
            non-issue with this </span>engine<span style="line-height:
            1.5;"> problem, but something I plan to get addresses after
            the </span>engine<span style="line-height: 1.5;"> is squared
            away and running properly.</span></font></div>
      <div><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span
            style="line-height: 1.5;"><br>
          </span></font></div>
      <div><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span
            style="line-height: 1.5;">Thanks for the help,</span></font></div>
      <div><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span
            style="line-height: 1.5;"><br>
          </span></font></div>
      <div><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span
            style="line-height: 1.5;">Rye</span></font></div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <div class="msg-quote">
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <div class="msg-quote">
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From: ptegler <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 15:56:11 -0400

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seconded...
     blue is 'burning' oil, not just super heated oil blowby which is 
usually white.
If it dissipates almost immediately it's water, if it lingers for a 
moment or three.... its oil

ptegler

On 10/15/2015 10:51 AM, Brad Kahler wrote:
> hatched so the rings didn't seat.  This allowed for massive amounts of 
> oil to be sucked up and out the exhaust.  Result was white smoke.
>
> So the question is, were the cylinder liners cross hatched so the 
> rings would seal?
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 9:15 AM, Chris Simo <[email-masked] 
>
>     Is that water or oil?    Lots of white smoke would indicate to me
>     a blown head gasket and water on the plugs.
>
>     Did you replace the head gasket with a new one when you fixed the
>     oil ring?   Probably not recommended, but I've reused them (1x)
>      in the past, but always painted them with the copper coat head
>     gasket paint.
>
>     I've blown head gaskets that leaked water into the pistons only --
>     no water in the oil.  But you may want to check your oil for
>     contamination.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/[email-masked]

-- 
Paul Tegler [email-masked] www.teglerizer.com

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    seconded...<br>
        blue is 'burning' oil, not just super heated oil blowby which is
    usually white.<br>
    If it dissipates almost immediately it's water, if it lingers for a
    moment or three.... its oil<br>
    <br>
    ptegler<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/15/2015 10:51 AM, Brad Kahler
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CADm3DLFMbMGs56p=GzE6PP=[email-masked]"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">Lots of white smoke doesn't always indicate
        water/coolant.  On my TR4 engine that had been freshly rebuilt
        when I bought it I had billowing clouds of white smoke.  After
        several head gasket changes I finally realized that the new
        liners (liner &amp; piston kit) had not been cross hatched so
        the rings didn't seat.  This allowed for massive amounts of oil
        to be sucked up and out the exhaust.  Result was white smoke.
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>So the question is, were the cylinder liners cross hatched
          so the rings would seal?</div>
        <div><br>
          <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
            <div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 9:15 AM,
              Chris Simo <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:[email-masked]" target="_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;</span>
              wrote:<br>
              <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
                .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                <div dir="ltr">Is that water or oil?    Lots of white
                  smoke would indicate to me a blown head gasket and
                  water on the plugs.
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Did you replace the head gasket with a new one
                    when you fixed the oil ring?   Probably not
                    recommended, but I've reused them (1x)  in the past,
                    but always painted them with the copper coat head
                    gasket paint.<br>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>I've blown head gaskets that leaked water into
                      the pistons only -- no water in the oil.  But you
                      may want to check your oil for contamination.</div>
                  </div>
                  <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                    <div class="gmail_quote">
                      <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0
                        0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
                        solid;padding-left:1ex">
                        <div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </blockquote>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <br>
                <br>
                <br>
              </blockquote>
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      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a>
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